 The moment Anna the writer upload a new chapter within half an hour within half an hour We would get a 200,000 comments So Hey, what's up guys and welcome back to another episode of a me approved today We have a real special guest Eva Lau managing director and co-founder of two small fish adventures Now before we get into her bio and onto the show a couple of house cleaning notes Number one if you're watching this on YouTube Please make sure to subscribe and hit the bell notification and number two if you're listening to this on iTunes I'd really appreciate a review because on the side note I'm picking one to two lucky winners every single week to receive $20 in Bitcoin now Without further ado our special guest for today Eva Lau which is a managing director and co-founder of two small fish ventures Eva's well-respected Entrepreneur turn investor in Canada before starting two small fish ventures She was what pads head of community and content She helped nurture and scale the what pad community from its infancy to becoming one of the largest online Communities with tens of millions of monthly users around the world That's pretty damn impressive. Thank you and one of the reasons why I have you on the show today Is actually want to talk about that journey? Okay, what pad okay happy to yeah first of all, how do you get involved with that like tell us from like from the beginning? Well, that's a case, you know according to an article back in the Globe mail. It has to start You know from the love story between me and Alan We kind of trace back then so Alan the CEO and co-founder of what pad we've met actually Back in the days when we were in university so it's been many many years ago and We started dating when we were in school and after we graduated We you know joined a workforce together He was actually one year senior so when he finished his master that's when I finished my bachelor and then that's how we joined the workforce and Since then pretty much most of our career has been working together in the same company well different companies, but you know together and It's always been tech so Now we trace back to the days in 2006 then so when he started what pad the story goes like this So he started a company or he co-founded a company Back in early 2000 called Tira wireless and it's a mobile gaming company That allows publishers to you know Develop games and deployed on different mobile devices. We're talking about back in the days or you know early 2000s When iPhone and Android were non-existent So he created you know a platform for game publishers, you know to Develop the game so that they can deploy it on multiple platforms back then He already kind of prototyped an app that allows people or Namely himself To read on a mobile phone, but we're talking about the screen size at that time was just so tiny It's like three lines or four lines. We talked about an okia candy bar here So obviously it was totally not usable. So he parked the idea and then at the time We were already married and then fast forward to 2006 One day out in the blue Ivan Yoon who was the first developer at Tira wireless, but he left a few years after I moved to Vancouver Insta message him and say Alan I'm working on a new business idea. I would like to get your feedback Now the backstory was what you know wild, you know, Ivan was sending you know sending him that instant message He was kind of like thinking about what's gonna be next for him after Tira wireless because in the gaming industry He was not, you know, really You know into it even though it's a company that he co-founded But he he just you know felt that what else can I make use of my skills in the mobile Computing space and create something that he enjoyed. So in 2000 and second he resurrected The mobile reading app because at the time the mode the Motorola razer flip phone has a much bigger screen so when he was kind of like playing with that Project that's when he got the message from from Ivan So he clicked on the link that Ivan sent to him through instant message. I'm like boom It's a mobile reading app at the same time Ivan even created a website that allows people to share their written words On the website so that they can download back on the phone and read mobile. He's he was like Ivan is one of the Smartest person I've ever worked with and and if he and I are thinking about the same idea We must be on to something So he didn't really tell me about you know all these thinking at the time, you know, because I just had a newborn my second child and I was just finishing off my MBA and You know, he was There was a week. I should say a week that he had to fly to San Francisco for a speaking opportunity I think it must be one of those Java ones conference that he was there I don't remember exactly but he was away and then he came back from the trip and said I'm gonna start this company with Ivan. I'm like, what? What company what Ivan? When did you meet Ivan? Oh, I was meeting him in Vancouver You know why now, you know before I fly back. I'm like, hold on a second. You were in San Francisco How come you were in Vancouver? Oh, I took a detour Before I came before I come back. So I I'm you know, I meet him up in the Vancouver Airport in the food court And that's how we decided to you know, start this business. I Was obviously kind of like, are you crazy? Who's gonna 2006 so for two years before the the iPhone 3 came out I was like, who's gonna read on this phone? Right? But because my background has always been in tech and even I helped startups in the early 2000 In an incubator Bryce Buck labs at the time Help entrepreneurs to figure out, you know, how do they kind of like Create the product, you know, Chris, you know from from idea phase to Launching it and Validating assumptions or tried to find product market fit. So I I knew that the startup series very very well so when when he Said that I was like I'm not sure like who's gonna read on this phone But if that's what you have the, you know the conviction in Sure So was it a foresight that you guys saw the evolution of the smartphone? See the thing is I would say absolutely. Yes, you know, given that, you know, we're talking about back in in those days um we saw the lip frog of Mobile technology specifically in the japan market in japanese market Back then with the d d d entity, you know docomo, you know, people were reading on a very very small phone extremely small screen But because japanese people spend so much time on commuting They do a lot of entertainment on the phone when they were commuting So, you know alan said, you know, I create mobile games or help publishers to create mobile games I see, you know, how big the mobile market actually is people are already Playing games. We know the download numbers. We see all those kind of things. So we know That, you know, the the next computing platform will be on mobile phones. Interesting. So you guys took kind of like a snapshot of the future in asia And overlaid it to what's to come in north america in a way. Yeah in a way and I think, you know back then even you know the Before tira wireless, you know, it was incubated from the price, you know from the briceback labs I was on the project briefly before it became a real company At the time, I remember that, you know, the over-the-air type Transmission, that's what they call ota and you know, we're very in its infancy and I would be talking to uh, or I should say You know collaborating with companies like telus and and bell and you know get their latest, uh phones and Have access to their network and say like, can I just try it? I just want to see, you know, what's coming in the future That's what technology is all about. It's always about looking ahead. You know, what's going to be coming and What kind of Behavior do we expect people? You know to behave As technology matures. Yeah, so it's not about creating new behaviors. It's piggybacking off pre-existing human behavior You know what human behaviors is always, you know, I think it it's quite constant You know people think people laugh people have emotions, you know people needs connections with others They cannot be lonely, you know all these kind of like the creation of human. I don't think Changes much over time, but it's how the technology around us make us behave some way so that it it Hopefully bring out the best of everyone over time So obviously if we're talking about human behavior, we're talking about like, you know, we would before the show Start we were talking about, you know, the chinese history and you know, I'm a chinese a certainly study You know chinese history, you know for for the past I've studied only for a few years, but the his chinese history was like, you know, five six thousand years ago If we look back time like people have to weave, you know to get fabric and people have to farm, you know to get food Obviously it's different, but the farming industry still exists a textile industry still exists different different same same Exactly, you know, so, you know, people need to eat people need to wear people need to go from place to place and The need it's always there, you know, but the the mode of delivering that service probably will change over time. Yes and so when The the version of what pad that we see today Was that the original idea or was it a certain pivot that you guys made through your journey? I don't think, you know pivot is the right word, but we certainly have grown since then so, you know back in 2006 when You know the the Motorola resa was the was the largest screen, you know ever available There was no traffic Like who would actually read on that phone and and at the same time wi-fi connection is not as Prevalent as as it is right now you go into Starbucks and you have have you know wi-fi right now But back then you you we just don't we just didn't right so data plan was Very very expensive at the time so obviously it was not going anywhere It's only it's only until iphone 3 came out when the other technology like wi-fi and data plan become more mature And all the handset manufacturers saw the iphone 3 came out with a big screen And like we have to have a big screen too. So like even we're talking about back in the days feature phones That are running java I want to sudden have like big and colorful phones Um, and then uh blackberry, you know, they have to have their own big phones You know with a big screen as well and then eventually with android came into the market Everybody was looking for entertainment on the phone. Yes. So for us, you know, given that alan and iven and both have very deep mobile technology Experience it was easy for them to just you know capture that uh In flexion point i would say in technology and and bet heavily on mobile computing and we did it right because 90% of our traffic actually came from mobile now people even write on mobile phones these days on wattpad, right? So Have we transformed obviously we captured the mobile computing space um at the time and make us the leading platform for people to read and write mobiley but at the same time because I that's when I joined them before the seed round in 2009 That's when I finally joined them because that's finally they had some Meaningful traffic and that they can scale in a way. So scale meanings that they how were they acquiring this traffic? Was it like paid acquisition? No, paid acquisition. We actually space zero dollars. Really? Yes. I think even up till now Really, I think alan would be proud to say that he spent very little money in terms of actually, you know For pay acquisition. So what is it just word of mouth or so initially we how we started was obviously There was no traffic, you know the famous story, you know, if people some of the the audience may have read about it is um, the the the monthly revenue In 2007 that we've got was two dollars From google at sense So it was only three dollars away from break even. It was such a beautiful business right hosting was only five boxing You know three, you know three dollars away from break even is a pretty it was a pretty good company So um We just kind of like let them let it Sits on its own and at the time alan and ivan actually had to start it have to start another company You know to basically bring some money to feed to feed the family So when the iphone 3 came out and uh, all the feature phones on the sun have bigger screen and and you know everyone Are looking for entertainment on on the mobile uh on on their mobile phones That's when we saw the uptick of the traffic and that's when I joined them when I joined them Because i'm an engineer. I work with startups My my dna is really around product like how to use or use the product How can we bring them on so that they can spend more time on it and tell their friends about it and make it more engaging so Me and ivan spend a lot of time understanding user behavior Understanding what people are actually doing on the platform. Some of them some of the writers initially You know, they just use the pseudonym They they wouldn't even tell their families and best friends about their stories. It's like reddit everyone just goes You know, they would they they are just so secretive with their identity. So, you know in a way Relying on the writers alone to tell the world It was very very hard because sometimes it's like, I don't know people like my stories So I don't know if I want to tell my friends But what we found was that when readers read the stories they love They they are just so passionate about it So we really try to kind of create a product to create this network so that the readers Enjoyed the stories and they will be the ambassadors to go tell the rest of the world how great the stories are And then and then the writers in in you know in return get the You know affirmations from the readers they get more motivated to continue on with the stories You know take on the feedback from the readers. So was it the readers sharing the stories? Like you guys integrated with other types of networks so you can say you know, you know simple things Simple things like, you know sharing on social social media. That's a given, right? Allowing people to go you know share also secretly, you know through the email or through text message Even though it's not necessarily showing everywhere in social media, but that's still happening So how we started initially like maybe I just kind of like, you know rewind a little bit When we first started the the app obviously it's empty You know, you have to see the network with something. It's a chicken egg story. It's a chicken egg story So let me tell you some funny story. I remember when when I you know saw, you know, when I first, you know Moderating the the community. I saw people Uploading textbooks like accounting principles and accounting definitions On on the platform not, you know, kind of scan the pages But it's kind of like, you know, what's was a future value of money and what's the equation and all those kind of stuff And I kind of like very baffled. I'm like, why would people upload something like this? Yeah And then I keep looking at the data Basically, it's only one user But keeps going back at it all the time So I kind of, you know formulate a theory in my head. I'm like, maybe this guy is trying to cheat in their exam That's how they can bring their note interesting, you know on the mobile phone back in the days Right now, now it's more smart, you know, people are smarter that they say no phones allowed in the group But I mean back in the days if you probably wouldn't think about it, right? So I think, you know, in order to actually under, you know, I love people to understand what what pad is all about So we uploaded 20,000 stories from the Gutenberg Gutenberg project. So all the classic like Jane Austen, Charles Dickens You know, Shakespeare's they all up there And this is a collaboration that we have we had with the with the project Gutenberg And so when people, you know, download the app either through Java or through through, you know, the iPhone back in the days They would know that this is a reading And writing out they would just say hey, you know come read your, you know stories come share your stories So it's all about positioning about, you know, what this is all about. So that's how we started But it took us, you know, a few years to get to the first original writer to come share on what pad I still remember 2008 I think The most populous writer on what pad her pen name was called red flame She was a 15 year old girl from uk And her story was read so many times that she can have 112 followers It was a big deal. I bet it was a big deal So all of a sudden, you know, when people see such a behavior, I'm like, wow, she's the most popular You know, she's now, you know, writing stories Then you start attracting more writers and then you start, you know, more readers because one of the thing that we did You know, in terms of sco optimization was like Our search was free stories So when people look for, you know, three ebooks three stories three, I mean free books then What pad automatically, you know, comes up quite high in the search results then People automatically download it and just try to check it up So that's how we that's how we started the whole network. That's impressive And uh, currently, what's your guys, uh, how you guys monetizing everything on what pad? Yeah, so, you know, going back to your questions like has it been pivot and this is this is what I meant So we started off as, you know, an app allowed people to share read and write, you know, you know, storytelling So obviously the initial monetization You know, uh, strategy was just eyeballs. Sure. It's very typical web base Even mobile base the more people read, you know, the you know, the more ads you serve That's how you do it And so when we actually continue to grow our user base To, you know, the tens of millions We find, you know, the whole advertising model Excuse me continue to evolve in such a way that Brands wanted to partner with us So they partner with us in multiple ways, you know, they may, you know, sponsor a couple of writers and say writer love stories about You know When they are in starbucks or write a story when they were, you know, having chocolate Then all of a sudden the brands have the opportunity to be like sponsoring stories Or they can just kind of like write the stories have the have the brands being mentioned, you know, many times And then, you know, some of them just kind of like sponsor Reading lists, they say, hey Halloween is coming out. Uh, this is something very Horror, you know, horrifying and this brand wants to kind of sponsor the top 10, you know, most horrifying stories You can read and then all of a sudden people are curating and then the the brand, you know, kind of like label, you know Put layer their brands on top of these reading lists. So there are many ways The brands can engage authentically with the user base on our platform And then so that's another way of monetizing Now when we talk about what we're doing right now, people think that it's a pivot But I don't really think this third transformation is actually a pivot. It's a grow of what we Are, you know, we we we were building all along so, um I think in 2012 2013, that's when we first hire a data scientist in in the company And I remember working with him and and uh, he was just experimenting with the data that we had I remember now I got to give you some context Um, when we were racing series a we're talking about 2010 2011 time frame I was the one who worked with Ivan and Alan to pull out the data from the database So I write the sequel statements. I'm like show me all the writers, you know, all this kind of thing It was quite easy, you know, the the query was kind of long to run but I could still do it But then later on when we had so much data so much data I put in a query it just sits there for half an hour It just sits there for half an hour. I'm like, wow This is not gonna, you know, help So the data scientist came initially was just kind of like helping us to restructure the database But then later on as we have massive data being gathered, you know, we start investing in machine learning So most recently, um, we are now Well, I should yeah, I should say maybe 2015 Yeah, 2015 2016 that time frame We saw a lot of our stories and and um Being, you know, trans transform into books and to tv shows. Yeah, I saw that movies in the Philippines So we, you know, in one year one a few of the blockbusting Uh Movies in in the Philippines were actually based on stories from Wattpad And then one of the tv station actually reached out to Wattpad and say can we do a partnership with you? Because we want to turn yours The most popular stories on your platform into tv shows that we're going to show on prime time So for a few years actually the if you go to the Philippines, you will be able to watch Half an hour every day at 8 30 a show called Wattpad presents So all those uh a week long episodes are all based on stories from Wattpad So that is a very logical way of people thinking about hey, you got up and rising stories And now you got popular stories and then we can, you know, put them into other medium Like movies tv shows and and books Now what we have been doing With the data scientists that we first hired we start started investing in machine learning So now with the technology what we call story dna We could understand a story far better than Human because every day we have about half a millions of new chapters being uploaded on our platform So far we have about five hundred and sixty five five six zero Millions of stories have already been shared on our platform in like 50 languages So like no one person can read the stories and kind of pick the winner And and if we pick the ones that are already popular You know, that is so obvious So we invest in machine learning and created this story dna technology So that we can understand the story better understand engagement daily engagement around the story far better And we can predict the success of the story I would say at least 12 months Ahead before it becomes popular and so the writers who are writing this story And for example, let's say i'm i'm from the philippines is This network or anywhere else and i want to use this writer's story You guys are like the publisher that facilitates the arrangement. So me as a writer i get a monetary gain Yes, you know when you when you know, we started to actually developing You know started develop programs to basically gather these up and rising's Writers with us so that we can actually help them monetize. So Obviously turning stories into movies tv shows and books is one way of monetizing But there are other ways to monetize as well some of them are actually Some of the stories will become paid content because they are they are so they are very good. They're very popular People are willing to pay, you know to to to basically Think show the gratitude. You know towards the writers. So that's One way of monetizing. Do you guys have a an audio version that I can listen to? Well, I I don't think so right now, but you know that that comes up, you know many times I would pay for that for a while. I I think so too. I think you know technology in the old days were very Robotic when it comes to, you know Text to voice So a lot of people kind of like I don't want Siri to read me this story Yeah, right. So we certainly you know for that kind of like quality you you you probably I'll make a jv deal with audible Right get the popular stories get the writer benefit. Maybe maybe take a good narrator. We got to pitch it to alan Yeah, so so, you know Now that with the story dna technology now we know then Allowing the crowd and technology to help us uncover these up and rising gems and help them and you know to To support the entertainment industry far better than just someone say my god is telling me that This script it's gonna make money or this this movie is gonna make money I mean if we look at the entertainment industry What kind of movies or shows actually makes the most money It's usually those ones that keep rerunning with the same brand like the star walls the star tracks. Yes, and then all the disney Princesses that has been created in the last decades. It's always just milking on the old assets that they have But with the wattpad community with machine learning We are now allowing Entertainment industries to basically build new assets. Yes that already has a built-in fan base But you like any data sets like machine learning is just pattern recognition Like filtering filter one filter two filter three, etc. It's still up to you to determine Quantitatively what metrics matter? Right. So you got all this data dump. It's like me, you know, let's query all our databases It's like, okay. I'm like, what am I looking at? Like for me when I look at data, it's like what matters. Yeah, I'm looking at all this data. Yes, so I would be interested. How did you guys determine? What was the process in determining like what metrics matter to determine? Oh This writer and these pieces like within six months are going to take off Right. So I think, you know, from a very high level, you know, we can only speak very high level right now If you want to go a little bit lower, we should have the the data scientists with you too You know, go through a deep learning model that they've developed But you know in in a very high level think about it, you know for any stories The journey of a story will probably be, you know, someone wrote it Some people read it And then, you know, the people who read it will start sharing it with other people and they will be Waiting for the next chapter as they come up Uh, some people, uh, you know as the new chapter come up, they will wait for god knows when they said Oh, I remember the story that I was reading. Have they updated yet? Let me go go read it Some people if they're like really passionate about the story the moment it it get uploaded They just kind of jumped on it. I remember one of the story that was on what pad that was so popular It's called after that's a very interesting story that I'm happy to tell you about So when it was still in progress being written on what pad The moment Anna the writer upload a new chapter within half an hour Within half an hour We would get a 200 000s comments Wow so So tell me the story that's a pattern. I want to hear the story It's a good story So, um, Anna was a writer is a writer on what pad and um, she started off as a reader So she was bored, you know, let me just read some stories And she you know get onto what pad and like wow, this is very interesting And and then she started writing her own story Based on the boy band one direction, you know, because at the time it was it was very popular and He just found it fun to write the story I she started the story. I think 2013 2014 timeframe Within a year or so The whole story She just she wrote she wrote she wrote the story You know pretty much a chapter a day Every time is a short chapter So there were there were a few hundreds of chapters That story gardener Up to up till today 1.5 billion chapter reads. Wow six million comments And most recently we have turned it into uh, uh a movie and the theatrical release was A release in april this year. This is what I saw and I saw yeah, okay. So that was the story. So The first opening weekend it was number one in box office in 15 countries. Wow, and it is still, you know, the best You know the box office movie indie movie, you know this year worldwide and So it was released in april And in july when it came to the teen choice awards when, you know, taylor swift got the awards and ariana Grandé got awards, you know all those all, you know, those teen choice awards in that uh awards After actually won The best drama movie The best movie male character A male actor and the best movie female actress Three teen choice awards alongside with all these superstars Were you guys responsible In the process of okay, so there's a story after and uh, she's releasing chapters day by day Very super popular. Mm-hmm. Were you responsible for then determining How the production would happen because obviously, you know, the you know the awards Kudos to the actors and actresses. Of course. Of course, right. So how did that process kind of work out? Well, see after it's one of the very first Project that we we took on in north america, you know, even though we have many years of experience in the in asia Particularly in the philippine. So we are You know, you know after serny it's it's a It's one of the many that will come so, um For for after the story, you know, it's more about partnership So when we discovered the story, we you know, took it under our wings and we started working with ana Uh, we basically, you know, choose our partners very carefully, you know to publish the books and then, you know, we work with You know the the the movie production People and obviously the entertainment industry. It's actually very complex, you know, they're producers The executive producers and then the distributions and then, you know, who's responsible for the marketing And you know, and then all of a sudden you have international rights. Yeah, IP rights It's a very very very complex project and um, I certainly am not the best person to speak about the project I think next time around maybe you should actually invite erin Levitt, you know from wappad who is the gm of the wappad studio to tell you about that side of business Eren erin would love to tell you more about that story But basically, you know through these partnerships, you know, it allowed us to leverage those our partners expertise to you know Take these stories into the big screen and and some of them, you know, take them into the small screen So run show is a holu show In the state it's called light as a feather We had one season last year and this year, um, we actually get in another season So we leverage, um, you know the relationship and and and the expertise, you know with the hulu network And and and make it happen. So, you know, down the road, you know, what the plans are, um, you know, are we are we going to be taking more Responsibility through this process. I'm sure erin will be the best guy to tell you more about that Seems like you guys are becoming like a hive mind of Of pre-trends happening within the zeitgeist of culture. Oh, think about it. Yeah, you know, right now Who are actually determining the pop culture these days is a teen, right? So what do they do, you know, when they kind of like want to express themselves a lot of them, you know, they They they kind of like take pictures on instagram, but a lot of them they actually start writing stories on what path So we are a great, you know Goal mind in a way to kind of mind the data to understand what's up and coming We often actually have early indicators of the next trend of the in the pop culture Far sooner than anybody else And so now that you know with all these, you know, uh, the story dna Not only understanding the story, but actually understanding that the engagement around it So one way to think about it is like when a chapter comes up How long do the people actually wait until they read? You know, those are those are those are totally measurable, right? So, you know, that's how we kind of understand Not only the story the quality of the story Compared, you know to some of the successful stories on one path, but we also look at the engagement the engagement is a key indicator You know, think about it, you know, if we look at just pure purely story structure I feed the the data, uh, I mean the the the data model with jane austin stuff with schicks beer stuff and With no engagement data around it You will probably think that the most popular stories coming up will very much like the jane austin and the and the schicks beers But if we layered the engagement data on top of it, like how soon people read it, you know How much engagement do they do it within the first hour hour, you know All these kind of metrics that are totally, you know, letting the machine to kind of like figure that out Um We can then determine, you know Based on the fresh data, what's really up and rising So right now we're partnering with a lot of the different Entertainment industry partners to basically understand what's up and rising and allow them to work with us To produce the next generations of entertainment. So we have partnerships all over the world We have partnership in south korea in germany and france Even in the north american market, we have a partnership with sony and sony entertainment So basically we allow all these partners to work with us to uncover The up and rising stars in the entertainment industry. Do you think uh, I don't know if you've been paying attention, but do you think The proposed 5g networks is you guys are paying attention to that how that might kind of play a role within the future of what pad Um, you know, I wish this question is more directed to alan, you know Given that I don't work at what pad, you know for for for a few years now Now that i'm a full flash of reason bring it up those i'm interested to see how the Evolution from text into both audio and video kind of naturally progresses I I think it's a very you know from from you know, if you ask me it's a very natural progression, right? You know think about you know, actually alan published, you know, his master plan On the internet and people can can just read it and and it was written I think back in where can they find it? It will put in the show notes You can just go google, you know what pad master plan I'll put in the show notes for people watching you should be able to read it and and Basically, you know the whole the whole idea is love, you know Initially we started off as an app allowing people to engage and read stories together And then we you know layered machine learning And uh, you know allow people to be even more social and read and write wherever they want And now we have all these assets that are ready to go into the entertainment industry What actually makes these assets successful in the entertainment industry? Are people loving it? It's audience. It's audience. Yeah, where do where do we have the audience? Wapat has the audience Right, these people are actually long-awaiting for the most beloved stories to turn into Books and tv shows and movies. So these we have already got built in audience So Who knows maybe in another 10 years Wapat will be making these movies ourselves Wapat studios And not only that think about merchandising of course, you know All these lovely characters that people love You know, they may talk about the rings they have or they may talk about the shoes they wear Or you know, maybe we'll be producing those merchandise as well digital digital collectibles to oh, yeah Oh, yes. Oh, yeah, so I mean to go back to your questions, you know, what is 5g is going to be doing it? I think let let me pull it this way. I think this probably will be the best answer that I can give to you Alan and Ivan are engineers What have made Wapat successful that is different than the traditional industry? Is that not only do we look at? Innovations in user behavior, you know enabling people to do more things is they pay close attention To the technology innovations that's happening around them I mean mobile technology, you know People think it's a norm right now, but back in 2006 it wasn't it wasn't no right, but then they bet it on it and when People were not necessarily being social on the internet and share things um We bet it on that trend and like believing that you know youtube people are sharing videos and watching videos and and you know facebook people were kind of like creating profiles and You know just chatting on the internet, but the key is you guys were writing the uptrend You weren't too too early because a lot of times if you go too early like oh, well, yeah, yeah Yeah, but at the same time, you know, we recognize these trends. Yes, so that's why you know when machine learning You know certainly I wouldn't say an infancy like machine learning has been you know Since the the 60, you know Long long long ago, but i'm talking about it's like when it be Before it become the buzzword in the ecosystem We hired our first data scientist in 2012 Right, so we knew that you know something is coming and we need to kind of bet on it So when you ask me, you know in terms of 5g From a technology innovation perspective You know, I think you know is the infrastructure so allow people to kind of like download things faster, you know Uh More frictionless when it comes to going on to the internet and consume content Certainly it creates a far more opportunities in terms of the richness of the content that any Uh publishers can can provide so I would say that you know the the multimedia type uh entertainment consumption Will probably be more prevalent. Yeah when it comes to 5g. It's interesting. I've been paying close attention to the growth of tiktok lately Mm. Yep. It's fascinating. So first Social platform I've seen in a very long time. That's a direct threat to instagram. Yeah The user engagement you're talking about the organic Relationships people make with each other actually knowing the creators as opposed to like For me when I see like instagram or something it's very Transactional it's not to me. It's not like I actually engage or I get to know The person that i'm following right but tiktok for the first time I felt like this Even though i'm not the main demographics just kind of bystand. I'm looking at this from a subjective outsider perspective, right? I'm like, this is fascinating. Of course. Of course. I think you know, certainly, you know, that's what I that's what I meant. It's like For any new technology it always kind of like started off with a niche group of users And as soon as you kind of see the niche group of users actually, you know Growing alongside with the with the platform and and at the same time attracting The adjacent demographics, you know to kind of like gather on that platform That's how you kind of see that the network is actually naturally forming. Yes, and I think that you know nowadays You know apps like tiktok. They spend a lot of money, you know to acquire customers, you know acquire users Oh, yeah, they they I think what they bought up musically back in the day. Oh, yeah, they did they did exactly And then they not only that they you know, they you know acquiring users, you know to come onto the platform They have to be aggressive. They have to be very aggressive So so those are all good, but at the same time, you know, I I I think that The success of the app for or any app. It's always kind of understanding the the the underlying desire Of the users Especially when it comes to marketplace Um, they will always be supply and there will always be a demand So now this is going to be going into a very interesting discussion now I don't know if we're going to be like kind of detour a little bit more. It's like Think about MySpace versus SoundCloud. Yeah Both of them are targeted To the music industry or the the artist the musician, you know industry, right? Why my space Have a difficulty people obviously say oh because you too. I mean facebook killed it, right? Yes, but at the same time if it is so good in actually engaging the musician community They should still be some ginormous community to allow people to engage with the musicians But why is it not happening? Whereas if you look at SoundCloud, um, you know the engagement directly with the musicians may not be as You know, hey, how are you doing Amir? It's not necessarily like that But the engagement actually gives the musicians far more A visibility of their art or the engagement, you know with the audience better than MySpace I think the difference is MySpace was putting musicians as the atomic unit as the Product feature that people's you know the person engage around it Whereas SoundCloud the atomic unit is one more level down. It's going right down to the music So people are actually talking about the music rather than Just the musicians so think about, you know, if you go on to a platform and up, you know, and then there's an up and rising Justin Bieber on it, you know, not Justin Bieber, but but that up and rising equivalent Do you think that musicians want you to engage with him? Or engage with the music And do you think the audience want to just engage with the musicians or do you want the audience want to engage with the music? That to me is what I meant by product design addressing the fundamental needs of the users And that makes a huge difference. So I think, you know, for any companies, you know, tiktok instagram Wattpad youtube, it's really understanding the intrinsic motivation Of the users, what do they really want to achieve on the platform? Will the platform be able to you know Provide that surface to satisfy that need and if that need was only half satisfied And if there's another platform coming up that really addressed the need Would you have a defense defensive mode? Yeah, the mode's an interesting one That's the biggest one going forward and also if you can stay up flow I know soundclouds having issues from monetization spotify wanted to buy them and I think that deal fell through. Yeah I've been thinking about this lately specifically And before off air, you and I were talking about China and the economy there and you know culture And uh, you know, we look at the major platforms we have, you know in China, we have We chat we chat we chat's crazy. If you guys haven't tried we chat like it's the universe. It's a whole universe. Yes That's a totally different universe. Yeah, it's crazy um But I look at youtube here primarily And it's a juggernaut right google bought them for pretty much pennies on the dollar. It's like it's the cheapest acquisition ever One billion Like ridiculous now it's not one billion far more And so for me, it's like I kind of see the decline of youtube recently I've been on the platform since 2010. So it's been coming up almost 10 years a decade um I'm curious Asked to I find it. I want to say hard But I find it really difficult to see how another platform can come around and kind of I want to say Overtake youtube because this is this is a cognitive dissonance. I'm having I give I'll give Facebook as an example You have well one facebook buy gets instagram or so you have instagram and now what's you know, uh, what's called? What's up? Yeah, so they have this whole ecosystem in control and like either or having to really re-involved into the potential Like for me, I look at instagram like this is it. I'm gonna ask like what So that's it like nothing really crazy it was um snap right snapchat that comes around yeah, and Creates new types of behavior. I want to say new but creates Incentives for different behaviors right with the stories and and erasing videos and then facebook's like well If I can't buy you since I have ungolly amounts of money. I'm gonna copy you Right, so they start copying what instagram stories facebook stories Yada yada yada and then you as a new and upcoming company a you don't have the lindy effect You don't have the money as facebook does you don't have the users right facebook has pretty much free users Their cac ratios probably who knows free free free like free. Yeah, exactly and so Unless i'm getting funded by like softbank and I have like 500 million dollars in funding to be super aggressive like tiktok does Mm-hmm I find it difficult to see how a new platform can come around And kind of dethroned let's say youtube because if if you and I create a new youtube competitor, whatever um And we have really cool new features like we understand it a new subculture of psychology of users But then youtube's over here with like billions of dollars in the bank and like Even amir. Thank you so much. I'm just gonna take this feature now and implement it That's kind of what i've been paying attention to recently is how do new startups In this day and age of like goliaths like facebook and like youtube kind of compete That that's a very good question because I ask that questions every day. Yeah. Oh you got your uh, you know venture fund Or the youtube killer I have to look at it. It's like, you know, are you gonna sure, you know, you pitch to me about this and that? I'm like, are you sure, you know, what if I ask this questions all the time I say what what if youtube, you know, or or or you know, whatever comparable companies are gonna be copying you and doing the same thing Yes, right What I what I believe If it is another copycat of something It's difficult So I have seen companies have pitched to me and say, oh, we are going to be YouTube for fashion. So we will only allow, you know, fashion bloggers to go on. I'm like Okay But what's what's the difference then, you know, to just go search for all the fashion bloggers on youtube What's the difference? There's no difference, right? So there are companies like, oh, we're going to be doing You know, a shopping app very much like instagram then I absolutely what if instagram layer shopping options, which they do You know, so what's what's the advantage? So I think a lot of these kind of innovations It's it's just a derivative of what Some of the existing Behavior is it's extremely difficult to kind of break that mode that these ginormous Company has created is exactly what you said, you know They they have all these, you know, you know users and they have all these money If they want to just kind of like copy it and make it nicer They can totally do it So I think, you know, the the innovation that I'm I think will happen It's only when people try to look at A different behavior that people really need So one of the things that I'm actually very interested in Is blockchain Someone uh, it's it's um, you know, I wouldn't say pitching me, but we were casually talking But I'm pretty sure there must be many projects out there right now on the blockchain that's doing this Is how do we use blockchain and make use of the consensus? Nature on the blockchain To actually fight fake news Yeah, yeah, exactly. I haven't seen a good project yet. You know, so I haven't made an investment on this one That's an Oracle problem. That's an Oracle, wow But you know what I mean, like so what I'm trying to say is that I'm I am hoping You know With some of the this this satisfaction right now on the current way of of content consumption Or social engagement or news consumption And when when all these discontentment, you know being, you know, it's Being married with new technology. Maybe there's a new form of A product that actually really address those issues and allow people to behave differently. I would agree like for me I would actually Look at monetization first so We look at youtube and like I look at google and for me, I just look at an ad agency It's an ATM machine for them, right? That's it right put a dollar in like what was it from uh Uh, who said this it was actually the former guy from facebook. I forget his name, but he said like I think for every vc dollar raised 30 cents goes back to the fangs or google for ad cost, right facebook and google That's why we have uh, you know companies to try to kind of like combat that Yeah, so in which I was super impressed when he told me almost like you guys were doing almost free acquisition my holy shit this amazing telling the secrets and uh I look at that's a web 2.0 type of monetization is very simple. We have the network effect We have eyeballs we have targeting so you can get Ideally you can get your ads in front of the right users and obviously as the market matures cpc goes up cpm goes up And it gets more expensive. We're only the big players can play right at the end They pay traffic whoever has the most money wins. That's it name of the game So for me, I'm like, okay, that's how the business makes money. That's it's uh bread and butter What happens if we come out with a brand new monetization system? For whom for the company or for those content creators everybody, okay This is where I think The facebook's and the youtube can't compete Yes and no You know, given that I have uh, you know help build what pat, you know during his infancy We have to face one tough question Um Meaning we I don't mean what pat. I mean people innovators in general It's money The only drivers to change people's behavior And I think the answer is no I think it's actually worse driver. Yeah. So so that's what I meant in terms of um, you know changing people's behavior Monetization can help to kind of sway people from one way the other Well, let's be honest youtube if youtube creators weren't getting paid they wouldn't be on there Um, I would say that some of them wouldn't be there a lot of them will still be there A lot would be there Because they have nowhere else to share something that would have a lot of mass, you know audience Well, you can share it on facebook you can share on linkedin like from the reason why youtube took off back in the day was because People they were the very first one to actually do the monetization for content ones I can't I can't think of anybody else really which kind of boggles my mind why facebook never got into that I still don't know why you know what I wouldn't say that they they are not yet But they've been talking they've been talking about it forever. I remember four years ago. Maybe maybe that's why libra is coming out I think libra is going to be one of the most interesting things in the last 10 years. I know I'm super excited for it. Me too. I'm super super excited about it You know, certainly people kind of like oh, but it's big company, you know controlling it and I'm like, you know what? If that means it's going to push adoption. Yes of crypto It's a good thing What that means is there will be more projects coming up that actually can leverage some of the learnings from that project Yes, and and just become something even more mainstream. Yeah, so, you know, I will not be surprised You know if monetization on on facebook or on some of these platforms are gonna be based on libra Yeah, I actually have a prediction. I think within the next seven years. Maybe Maybe a little bit sooner. We'll see a black swan event. We're gonna have I don't like the word decentralized because that can mean anything but we would have an open system Yes, an open consensus system That would create skin in the game And opportunities for everyone to monetize Whether that's a native token Whether that is a native token as a registered security. I don't know. I'm not getting the legal stuff Yeah, but what I do when I will what I will predict on record is it will be a direct competitor for facebook Well, I I wouldn't be surprised, you know, think about it this way, you know right now If for any content platform, you know, youtube is one facebook It's one, you know twitter, you know, even in including wattpad A lot of the times when we look at Monetization or compensation Right now everyone it's compensating only the creators The audience are just basically The product for b2b No, it's basically giving their time. Yes, you know and and and um Yeah, they may not actually have to pay anything, you know, if you go onto youtube, you don't pay anything If it's free or the product, you know, you know, you're the product But at the same time you don't think about it. They they're actually making use of the time So that These creators can make money But what if imagine one day, you know These people who actually contributed to the success of these content creators actually have You know some share of of the success then all in a sudden things will be very different And there's there's people in the blockchain space to propose ideas of Digitizing ip rights to certain songs products, etc. Yes, that's interesting. Yes. Yes, but that's still on the creator side Well, I'll give you an example and we're super early like even, you know, I've been in the space for a while and I don't think so we're gonna see anything really I want to say meaningful. That's not a good word, but more or less substantial. Yeah, that's a better word In least another three years. Yes, I agree um, but For the ip rights was interesting and listen. I got a lot of cool up-and-coming Artists in Toronto that are like all different genres And I would love to own a little percentage of some of their masters or ip's I support the music anyways if I can throw down whatever $1,000 $5,000 to own x and it's in a smart contract. Yeah, and I can track my ip. Yeah Well doing a heartbeat. Of course. Of course. That's that's basically the whole vc Uh model in terms of you bet on something early on and you take a little bit of ownership And as soon as it becomes, you know, successful you take a cut of of the success because you were you were there early on You know, that's that's no different than a vc But I think what I'm trying to talk about is that, you know, right now the mask A consumer, you know, they're not necessarily being constant Compensated, you know by the time that they actually have contributed So, you know, whether this this video has been watched You know 10 million times and now become one of the the most popular video on youtube You know people actually spend the time to do it. So what does that mean? I don't know. Maybe maybe You know, they actually take a little bit of Uh uh success with it. Yeah, the weather's there's there's some people trying to do something like you have brave that's trying to Opt in like if I see ads I get paid in the brave token. You have other platforms like minds.com Yeah, some people just say, you know, if you answer a survey you get you get, you know, a token back And it's kind of like I think that's a flawed system though. Anytime you ask people to do something for money Yeah, you won't get the right answer. Exactly. It's fake data. Totally It's like what I can get 10 bucks. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes See the thing is funny enough. Um, I actually did a few years of market research Um between my MBA and between between joining Wattpad And my job was to basically, you know design surveys and because I just finished my MBA So I partnered with a professor and kind of like helped him in his boutique marketing research firm And so I know what it means by, you know, surveying people and have to pay people to do it and and yes They're professional surveyors Yeah, it's crazy. So I'm gonna quickly shift gears is um, you've been uh, You've been running two small fish for a while And uh, you know, toronto based. Yes Uh, you know, canada always has a running joke. We're like one of the Titus to vc type of countries for giving money out or investing or say deploying capital. Yeah. Yeah Well, you know, lately in the last couple years toronto has blossomed grown a lot. Um What have you seen lately in the ecosystem as an investor not as a founder, but as an investor Have you seen like Can you give us kind of like a four one one diagnosis? Well, there there are certainly many things I see in the ecosystem and it's very very interesting and one thing I really want to highlight It's based on, you know, the experience that I have this summer And so how did it start? It was like, you know, as I was saying, you know, I was I left Wattpad 2013 and then I became an angel investor Uh, you know in 2014 and did a few years of angel investment I did great in the first few years. So since last year I start raising my venture fund And I close nine million dollars on my first close this april. Wow, congrats. Thank you. Thank you So I'm now one of the very few venture capital general partner women general partner in a country And I'm still racing for my remaining six million dollars because my target is 15 million But what I was what I'm trying to say is that because Now that I have a venture fund It allows me to have a bigger impact in the ecosystem than just an angel So this summer I actually spent the summer, you know, since july and all the way to, um, you know, even last week Travel coast to coast in canada So I visited Halifax. I went to montreal. I went on Ottawa, I went to Calgary and then most recently, you know, I was in a calona vancouver I just see that Canada it's a very interesting country that Different cities they have different ecosystem and they are all doing something very interesting So obviously Toronto is the is the most mature when it comes to ecosystem You know, we have the the whole blockchain community because ethereum was literally born here We had the ai community because professor professor jeffrey hinton, you know Had a large discipleship here in Toronto Um, so we have a lot of those talents and then, you know, we have a big fintech e-commerce, you know, e-commerce, you know, that's more like the Ottawa, right? You know, but but, you know, if we look at the banks, you know, all the headquarters are in here in Toronto If you go into university and queens park all the big hospitals are here So you see almost all the littles in all the sectors are maturing in the Toronto ecosystem But if you actually go outside of Toronto, you go see some, you know, the different provinces Every one of them has something very unique. So I was at the Atlantic Canada You know, for a few times now since last november, I I I didn't know much about the ecosystem Of that of the Atlantic's uh, sigh until last november So I was being invited to a conference there to speak as a keynote And I'm like, oh if if they're gonna be inviting me over there, I I should at least take a look at it So and then I was like wow 200 people listening to me to talk about network effects And how did I, you know, create the network effect at Wattpad? And then, you know, they asked very good questions And then I went back again with Creative Destruction Lab Because they have a cohort in Halifax For a few more times Every time I went there it's just kind of like wow They have something so interesting here that I would have never seen in the rest of the country Ocean technology, do you know that there's so much data together in the ocean That the whole world is actually dying to have those data? Where is where is the best place to actually build that kind of technology that can surface the world? I would say it's the maritime The Atlantic side of Canada actually have a, you know, a the breadth of, you know Scientists there, the knowledge is there And now that, you know, with all the technology investment being, you know, put into the the ecosystem over there We are seeing a lot of interesting startups in that space And then obviously if you look at the Calgary, you know, the oil industry, you know, they know about innovations And they had, you know, make money in in in the last few decades So now if they want to look at innovations of how to innovate their own industry Or, you know, build technology that they know that it's going to be up and rising In the energy sector Calgary is Is the place to actually Foster that ecosystem For those kind of innovations to happen So same thing, you know, obviously Montreal has a very unique Uh, uh, uh, uh position as a French speaking, you know, a province and, you know, AI is very strong and And, you know, the culture is slightly different because of the francophone there All I'm trying to say is that these ecosystems, these mini-ecosystem All of them actually blossoming and I see a trend that it will be important For any VCs to be able to support these ecosystem And perhaps even Help them to stitch them together Because right now if you go to Kelowna People said that, oh, you know, I don't tend to come to Toronto to raise money because it's like what? A five hours flight. I may as well just go down South and raise the money. That's a lost opportunity for our country. Totally Right, that's a totally lost opportunity for our country And and same thing, you know, and you know people in in the in the maritime Um, you know in the Atlantic side, they they basically, you know, they collaborate a lot You know, Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, New Brunswick, you know, they do a lot of collaboration PEI And when it comes to raising money, they said, oh sometime we just go New York You know, because Toronto seems to be very absorbed In their own ecosystem and only look at Toronto. I'm like, no it's just that, you know, um We as VC should actually spend more time to actually look at the bigger picture And being able to place bets In companies that is going to be the next unicorn in our country So I think that right now with the ecosystem in all these communities are actually blossoming You know, the the the province are putting money in there. The local Angel investors are putting money in there More young people and aspire to actually be an entrepreneur You remember those days when we graduate from school, you know, our parents is like go find a job that you can retire in It's no longer that kind of mentality, right? So young people want to be their own boss. They want to start Uh, their own company. They want to do something different and change the world So I think I think in general the whole You know I should say the soil is ready To actually kind of like grow the next generation of all the startups here So what are action plans to take then from this? Well, I really think that, you know, if we can actually put together a more Collaborative effort between the provinces So you want to get the federal provincial, uh, I you know what I don't I'm not necessarily, you know a believer in You know getting the big hand, you know from the from from the government to kind of facilitate that because sometimes The way that I looked at it is that um, government are great uh You know, they can put great instruments to kind of like Pull things together But things has to happen from the grassroots positions like think about it. Wattpad think about youtube It's always the grassroots. Yes. It's not like the publishers or you know The tv station or the music producers say go now share on these platforms. It's always grassroots It's always people who are living and breathing With their problem and when they saw There's an opportunity or there's there's a solution that can perhaps lessen their their struggle by like 20 30 percent They will be kind of like jumping on the bandwagon And want to make it happen because people are problem solvers They create we are creative we want to kind of solve problems together Is there anything that we can take from silicon valley or even Or even israel, you know, I always look at israel You have this tiny little country Little dot over there And they have You look at the ratio of how many startups are coming out of there. I'm like, what are they doing? well, I think you know israel is certainly it's it's a A very unique example, right because the country is so small You know the the density of the population is more concentrated and and you know for them The export has to rely on something that The small piece of land cannot generate a lot so technology export for them It's very important, you know from the from an economy perspective So if I look at canada As you said, you know before the the show it's it's it's the second largest in terms of like land in in in the world It's good and bad. Yes It's good that because we can rely on our natural resources Every community can kind of survive on their own like, you know, you know British columbia is is happily being British columbia You know that the paris are happy to be, you know, the paris and and so on and so forth, right? So they have their own economy to support the local Light livelihood of the communities that reside in their province Which is good, but at the same time It's not as good because the collaborations between all these Communities are not necessarily Putting the support that's necessary to create um a common goal So think about you know Shopify It's one of I think it's the unicorn that hasn't shown up in the canadian economy for a long time Right What which one is the next one? I certainly, you know Hope that what pet will be the you know the the next one that's come, you know coming up and you know many others But what if what if you know the entrepreneurs and and the vcs Have more collaborations Looking at the country as a whole rather than oh, I'm in the Toronto market Oh, I'm in the Montreal market or oh, I'm in the Halifax market How would we go about doing that like that's what I'm trying to run my head around is like do we have Do we have a new type of organization that we have I don't think it has to be that complicated Okay, I think that you know obviously when when big planners coming into you know these kind of problem solving They try to kind of put a like a structure like an infrastructure to kind of like stitch things around I think at the at the bare minimum at the bare minimum It's just very fluid relationship So what if you know dmz in Ryerson Have a partnership or collaboration with the Kelowna Innovation Center. Yes It's as simple as that So they do actually have I'm just kind of you know picking these two up, you know names I don't necessarily mean that you two have to do it if you're listening But I'm just saying that you know just just imagine two accelerators, you know from both ends of the country They they form a partnership and say, you know what your company is my company. My company is your company And if they happen to be in Toronto, uh, they don't have to worry about finding a place to meet vcs They can just be in our facilities As simple things like that, you know, and if we actually want to have a showcase of our companies that are being, you know, uh Incubated or or being, you know in our accelerators. We have row shows together You know the Kelowna companies and the and pick five companies in the Kelowna, you know Accelerator and maybe 10 companies in dmc because they are slightly bigger the 15 of them, you know They do they do a row show and you know to go meet investors in Calgary and then go meet, you know investors in Montreal I think that's A very organic way of doing it without Like a specific infrastructure To have a mandate To put these things together. It's a mindset. It's a thinking. We'll have a new group called the row show capital So we'll go city to city. Yeah, that would be fun. That's right. You know, there will be fun Yeah, it's interesting. I don't know. I think like I said earlier. I think uh, Canada's prime specifically Well, I'm just by because we're here in Toronto, but the action happening here is Amazing. Yes and and imagine this amir if all the experts and all the talent that we are here in Toronto We don't even necessarily have to go outside You know to travel to other ecosystems. We have the internet. Yes You know think about if if the the ecosystem here in Toronto have some sort of You know I'm not saying that they don't have the willingness but have that kind of initiative or or or or tiny tiny project and say like look we want to Perhaps have a webcast about this topic You know for for everyone in the ecosystem that obviously on the internet everybody can consume But if we actually make it a more A collaborative effort that we say we notify the innovation centre in Kelowna We notify the the innovation centre in in regina. We'll go have you know, tell the The accelerator in in new Brunswick that we will have this show on this day at this time Anybody who want to do it watch it I'm not saying that people are not doing this right now, but I I'm saying that people are not doing it in a very You know Planned out way. They just kind of like yes, we have material we put it on the web and people will read it Think about you know all the reader and writers on what pad is like I have the stories I put it up and pray that people will read it Versus those want to say I'm going to go target, you know this writing group and say hey I have just written a story on what part, you know You want to kind of go critique it and then you go to another writing group and say look This is what I've written on what part you want to take a look and give me some feedback. I know on a sudden Maybe not all of them Will go yeah, but if 10% of them actually did it They can bring those learning back to their own community. I agree. I do have one question though and You know a lot of my friends You know, they have the network. They know the investors here both angels and vcs. You name it, you know But they get better terms down south Ha ha ha Yeah, I I know I know what you mean to get better terms. I don't blame them You know founder wants better terms, but at the same time, you know the way that I look at it It's not there, you know, there's always a two side of of a story I just found that you know the the valley they certainly have a lot more capital, you know from from just the economy perspective They've been longer. They you know so for them to actually Uh, you know bet on terms and then things like that. It's great. But I think what it comes down to is that It's always looking at people who can add value To your company. Yeah, you don't want dumb money. You want smart money right so Sometimes I just feel that You know, obviously if they can find better partners, you know, they they feel that you know the the people You know, they are raising money from have the experience or expertise can help them if they can find them, you know in the south Go for it. I'm not saying that, you know Let's keep everything in canada like the entrepreneur has to do what it's good for them Yeah, you know, there's a survival game if they cannot put, you know partner with You know themself with someone that actually can you know help them to the next step then it's meaningless I also have cognitive dissonance when it comes to I have I have a hard time wrapping my head around from a founder's perspective where it's like Okay, you're doing a series a whatever series and you're valuing good at x The amount of value you got to return for that valuation is ridiculous And for me, I'm like, is that company really worth that much? That's exactly my point really This is exactly my point. You know that I was trying to get to Valuation good terms. I think everybody wants but usually what I recommend Entrepreneur is to think three rounds ahead Because let's say you you know, I have seen companies that have some good traction Not ginormous good traction that people have to die to get in but it's good, you know They have you know a few hundred thousand users in an early product and actively engaging and then people say, you know what With this I can easily go to the valley and raise, you know 10 million dollars on a 30 million valuation. I'm like good for you if that's what you're looking for But what I would be very concerned about is, you know, if you have 300 000 users for this round You probably want an up round You know next time. Yes, you're already at 30 in valuation. You probably want to be at 50 how many users you have to grow From 300 000 users to 50 valuation You're probably will have to be 10 x to at least three million minimum minimum minimum And those are active users not just users Logging in do you really know Do they really know in the next 18 months because that's pretty much the next round? Yeah, you know in terms of time frame. Yeah that you can Grow and I think you know the way that I look that it is is coming back to the The very first point you asked me At the beginning of the show is how much money they want past been Yes, you know in marketing if you're going to raise 10 million dollars eight million is going to go back to google and facebook You actually may not actually have a have a have a product that has a product market fit totally Then you have just burned eight million dollars To grow your user base from 300 to maybe 600 And you are far from the three million mark that you need to raise a 50 million dollar round So what that means is you probably have a down round. Yeah That will look so bad. In fact, I actually have a theory. I think the Approach we've seen last year specifically since softbank came in Of the crazy valuations I think that's slowly gonna be Going away Especially now with what everyone's seeing happening with we work. Yes and uh You know when I first got introduced to vc space years ago And I started understanding it and reading about it and talking to some people and then Looking at business model called me simple, but I like I like profits And when I see some of these companies, I'm like Am I am I living in a cuckoo house? I'm like serious like I get the model sure you want to go ipo. I get it. I understand it. I understand it I get it. I get it but You're not making any money. Right. So that's why for those opportunity it has to be Reasonable in terms of you know valuation or I think about wattpad in the early days, you know You know, we were making two dollars five dollars away from from break even but that was the beginning But but even when we raised csa, you know, we were making we were making decent money. Yeah, um, you know It's all at supported But if we need to step on the gas to you know, hire more engineers, you know, make the app, you know Much better we would that would right away put us back, you know to you know, to the red So we do actually need that kind of you know, uh capital infusion to you know Scale the company, but you're right. It's not sustainable to continue to be You know on the red for like god knows how many years, right? So it's important but I think you know it it It depending on the business, especially if it is b2b. Yes You must have a margin that margin has to be able to do something honestly the older I get and this is I like b2b more and more The sales cycle is longer. Yeah, but if you can get into like legacy contracts And get some of these like upfront. It's like such a big cash infusion, right? Right. It's an easier sales cycle for me. I know what you know, this might be it's a 10 month sales cycle See the thing is what I really, uh, you know Get me more interested in the b2b is the data network effect. Yes You know, I think that you know a lot of businesses these days are using tools You know, I use this tool to do this. I use this tool to do that So eventually I just feel that if if you know for any innovation It's it's just making the transaction faster increase the productivity, you know a little bit more by a margin It always arrays to the bottom Meaning that you know, you're always competing with the next, you know with the next bnb I mean b2b, you know application With more features and lower price point. It's always about it's a commodity. It's a commodity But the thing is if we look at slack Yeah, it's it's on a sudden a very different beast. Yeah, it's interesting to me It's especially since microsoft, you know, yeah, it's it's the whole it's a whole network That is being built upon and I think a lot of b2b these days is is particularly, you know Slack it's it's a social layer type network that we're talking about But I'm talking about actually a lot of the b2b these days Actually making use of the data analytics and be kind of data network effect based company using ai So all of a sudden you see people using this tool. They are doing this. They're gathering more data and then on a sudden Department to department type collaboration They may not actually collaborate on a social layer, but because they need the data To collaborate then all in a sudden the tool Helps them create a data network. Yes that they collaborated on top That's the that is going to be the differentiator because even if there's another tool, you know coming in and say You know, we have five dollars cheaper per users and we have more features You can change the color of the background, you know that kind of stuff It doesn't matter because now that this company it's literally locked Based on the data insight that's a stickiness, you know that that this b2b tool Great. So those are the b2b type of companies that I'm extremely interested in Yeah, being attention to those. Yes. I I'll share one after the please. Yeah, I'll share something with you Please. I think we're wrapping it up over here. Thanks. Thank you for sharing everything. Well, thanks for having me here I appreciate so much if people want to get to know about you and Two small fish and ventures. What's the best resource? Well, certainly go into my site, you know dup dup dup to smallfish.vc You know, you have almost all the information about the portfolio companies that we have invested in You know our investment thesis and things like that. I engage on social media very often Twitter, LinkedIn, Wattpad If you want to share your romance stories with me, you can totally do that on Wattpad and uh, yeah, instagram Many many many different channel you can reach to me. Awesome. All right guys, go check out Eva and don't forget to subscribe Talk to you guys soon later