 Thank you again for staying with us. You're watching OI 254. We are looking into the health sector. So much has been said about it and so much is happening. We are losing our doctors to COVID-19, who is to blame. The parliament has set the stage on things are not okay. Are we doing well as a nation? Talk to us to all our social media platforms, like 254 Channel on Facebook, Twitter and Instagram. Before we went on break, we're speaking about the health commission and the people who should be in the health sector. Not one kind of like bitches has been trying to put it here. So, Sarah, you're trying to say something about the commission. Yeah, and we have correct Hillary, right? Healthcare workers dying. Okay. Not only doctors. And you see when you have a diversified health commission, then we have good good representation and then their views will be well catered for. Then also another thing is that you see everyone who goes to medical school, whether they're going to take nursing, we're going to study clinical officer, you are going to, you become a doctor automatically. So, no, that is the Kenyan. And this just a pharmacist. So this is a doctor to you. So unless these things are well elaborated to the common Kenyan, then we shall understand who are in those areas. And on what she said, the papers or the media always say, doctor, this and this, doctor, this and this. We don't know if she's a nurse or a clinical officer or she's a pharmacist. So we need to get clear information so that you can help the public. And the other thing is that when it comes to the cry of the medical workers, I love how TSC always presents itself, not TSC not present itself. When it states that we are going to have, let me say, a strike. Yes, we are going to have a strike because the CBA that we signed has not been agreed upon. The number of teachers that we are supposed to be given, we are not given. The classrooms, we don't have. They state the reasons to why they are on strike. And after their strike, when they sit down, at least 70% of their demands are well met. Because their demands are well elaborated when they are on strike. But when doctors are on strike or the health workers are on strike, I always fail to understand why are they striking, why are they on the streets. Because sincerely speaking, when you walk to these government hospitals, the level 4 hospitals, the level 1s, all the hospitals, they are pathetic. They are pathetic. A hospital that was built in 1952, like Montgomery County Hospital. It is still the same way to us. There's no refurbishment. There's no upgrade. There's nothing. When you go there, you are sick. You've taken your sick person there, you who is not sick, you fall sick. Because of the environment itself. So when these people go on strike, what are their demands? And when they sit down for negotiations, are their demands met? So when you state clearly your demands, then everyone will understand you. Now, when you talk of the oversight thing, she mentioned about KEMSA. This thing, when you sit down and look into it, the people who are doing the tendering of, let me say COVID millionaires, COVID-19 millionaires, who are doing those tendering, they register their companies in January. They were aware of all this thing. So I can tell you the truth. The doctors were aware of COVID that is coming. The government was aware. And I remember one former senator, Dr. Bonnie Halwale, said on one of the TV shows that COVID was discovered and it is something that was raised. Okay? In the year, let me say early 2019, whereby it was discovered and they say this thing will be a problem to the nation. So all the governments were aware of this pandemic. It's not that they were not aware. Okay? They were aware. The only thing or the only problem that has been there is the management. And when I mentioned over the committees in parliament, the public investment committee, budget and the appropriation committee, the public accounts committee that is being chaired by Honorable Opion and I. Okay? Has failed in their mandate. Right now, the parliament should be carrying out proceedings. The committees should be carrying out their proceedings in questioning. Okay? The money that the country has been given from the donors. The COVID money, the country has received almost like 4 billion or 87 million. Actually, that's right that you put it COVID money. COVID money that the country has received for the donors. And remember there was a kitty that was said to be given to the doctors? You mentioned something earlier on. About cessation, about the curfew. And let me say cessation and the curfew. I raised it here when we were discussing something to do with the schools. Okay? I raised it here. And I will still raise it. We were going on curfew and cessation of movement for the country to ensure that health facilities are well equipped to manage the pandemic. We are going on cessation and curfew things to carry out the census and mapping on where COVID might strike people most. Okay? But right now, we are in this situation just because of failure of somebody doing their work properly. And that includes the health worker, okay? The government itself and the parliamentarians, the parliament, the public health, the parliamentary health committee that is being chaired by the human rep of Muranga, Sabina Chege, okay? Being chaired by the parliamentarian, human rep, Muranga, Sabina Chege. So if everything is done in the best way, then we shall receive the best results. But when we ignore things and do them in accordance to what we think and not how we should manage them, then that's how we go wrong. All right. Another thing that I want to also highlight. Senator, in the interest of time, I would like us to look to a different thing so that we may wind up. Yes, I'm winding up on the same thing. All right. On the same thing to do with the health. Right now, they are raised concerned about the ICU bed capacities. This is the time the parliament, the parliamentary committee on health should be actually carrying out oversight on the same things. Why is it that we don't have these bed capacities up to now? Why is it that we don't have medical equipment in hospitals up to now? So if all of these things are well oversight in the parliament, then at least the public will be aware of, at least will be headed somewhere. But when monies are squandered and no question, no arrests, then we have a problem. All right. Now, which is actually what Senator has just begun on, the bed capacity when we went on the session of movement, the counties were supposed to provide these beds and we're having a report here by KMP due and this is the latest by October 20th of this year. Isolation bed capacity which assessed bed capacity was 7,644. The ICU beds were 319. Non-health facilities were 3,550. Total of these were 11,513. Projected county beds were 5,628. ICU were 173. And non-health facilities, the projection was 1,129. But counties on these is 6,930. So far, total bed capacity is 18,443. Yet a health care worker dies because of an ICU bed or a good facility to be treated on. So the 18,900 bed capacity nationwide. Yes. Now imagine we are 47 million Kenyans. So let's say this pandemic strikes three million people that need a health care facility. Do you think it's possible? It wouldn't. Right. After I'm saying it's even by the masses of God somehow, he has really protected Kenyans. That we should give credit to God. Even if the people don't believe in God, there is a God there who has protected Kenyans. Now, I don't believe lockdown was the solution to solve the pandemic. WHO wrote an article when Ebola strikes in West Africa. Lockdown, they even wrote an article and said lockdown is not the solution when it contains a pandemic because it's actually even aggravated even further. Because human beings, per se, are not meant to be confined in a place. By other measures like general hygiene, that is okay. Quarantineing the sick, quarantining healthy people. It's supposed to be quarantining those who are sick. So you find someone who is sick, you are solid. You don't isolate healthy people because other issues will crop up because of doing that. So how they handled it and even the planning. The only problem, and I argued this outweigh before, we were putting in measures because we saw China do the same or we saw India doing the same. Rider is when I can upload KMPD, they are trying to do research and trying to articulate based on facts what they have found out. And there is even a group of medics who came up with not an article, a journal where they wrote about the symptoms in Kenyan setting, the symptoms of COVID because you can be getting symptoms of COVID to an Italian or a Caucasian population now they are looking at which I upload. That is the way things are supposed to be done. So you look at your environment, you ask yourself the key questions, what should be done. So now what is happening is the health care system is being exposed. When you are a chief medical officer in that county, you've been hired by the county, you're the chief medical officer, you are just sitting behind the desk. You are not doing anything to improve the health care sector. Now they are being exposed. Because trust you, it's not an engineer who sits as a chief medical officer in the county, right? When you are a medical superintendent of a county referral hospital, right? It's not an engineer who sits there. It's a medical person who sits there, right? So when funds are brought to the institution, when procurements are done, and they say, what is your role? You see, before we blame even the governor and blame, look at someone like Chariting Gil. Chariting Gil was not even anywhere near a medic, right? But she brought health reforms in the ministry, right? Even when she was not in good terms with the president that time, she would say, you know what, if we don't allow these funds for HIV to happen, people are going to die. And the next thing things are being, because you need to articulate your issues. So what we are finding is that you have a whole medical superintendent in charge of a county referral. Why don't you go to the governor's camp there and tell him, if we don't improve this data, it's going to collapse on our healthcare workers, right? So when you're put in there as a CS, or you're put in there as a cast for healthcare, what do you do there? Are you just a flower girl just to be seen by people and just be over the social media? Is that your only role? But we realize that most individuals, and that's why I say leadership is a gift. Leaders are not made, leaders are born. You can be a whole medic and you have the technical knowledge, but you are not a leader. And that is where we need to distinguish. When people are being appointed as chief medical officer, when you are appointing people to be the permanent secretary, when you are appointing people to lead healthcare in itself, choose people who are born to be leaders. Because leaders, for me, according to me, leaders are never made. Leaders are born. So once the issue of leadership is what is stifling the whole healthcare system down, because an abnormal leader, a logical leader, a well-trained leader, who knows what it means to be leadership, by seeing 18,000 beds, that in a population of 47 million, that tells it is already a problem. So I'm expecting if you are the chief medical officer and you're doing a budget, you're not just doing a budget of recurrent expenditures just to pay people's salaries. And I agree with him, when healthcare workers say all they think is salaries. You see, I was telling somebody, right now the country is broke. How sustainable is the increment of salaries in another five years? Is it possible? Yet we have a country that is dependent on taxes. And to reach a point that instead of hiring more doctors or hiring more nurses, the government, based on their budget, they'll only sustain only those few and prevent hiring more because it's more expenditure. So we really need to reason and sit down and ask ourselves, apart from fighting for just salaries. Health reform is not only through salaries. I think we need to shift the mindset. Health reforms is whereby, does even the government have a system of preventive healthcare? Right now, the reason why I feel many healthcare workers are also being affected with the excavation is overload, workload, workload and fatigue. Why? Because maybe you're only four doctors in that case scenario, right? And you need to shift, because you see you're being exposed very frequently. And sometimes this condition, you need to be away for at least 14 days or so. But you find, because you're only four of you and the government can't even hire more people, what happens? Your exposure rate is increased. So ideally what the government should have done actually was that during this money that were given by W. H. O. and other agencies that gave them money, they would even have hired people on a temporary basis. So that instead of four doctors, it would be like 15. So that they're able to do in shifts. So if one soldier is asymptomatic, they can. Number two, when they were even procuring their PPEs, did even someone ask them, what is the exposure rate for each cadre? Because even the cleaner who cleans the isolation room is already exposed and that cleaner may need PPEs. So they would have calculated how long does a cleaner take within the isolation room to clean that room? So what kind of PPE should they wear? How long or what is the duration of a nurse attending a COVID patient? And the doctors exposure the same thing. Then they are able to say for each doctor, at least adequately, they need five PPEs based on one. So what I'm saying is that they should have gone to the level down to the end. That's what I'm telling you. One cadre cannot just be the one making the decision. You need economists. You need people on board. So that one person would have said one COVID patient actually consumes this number of PPEs that helps in proper burden because I could also be blaming individuals here that where did the money go? But then maybe they under-budgeted and then prices were high. And then even the quantity of PPEs that were even procured was less. Because we realize maybe one COVID patient is actually consuming 50 PPEs because of the number of individuals that is actually attending to that person. Remember, I have told you, even the cleaner, the one who is cleaning that room, is also exposed. The lab technician who is doing the test, this is not even a lab technician who is doing the test, is also exposed, isn't it? So even the midwife who is delivering a mother with COVID is also exposed. So look at the different individuals being exposed, by that one COVID patient walking in into that facility, how many people have been. Even the watchman at the gate is already exposed because that person is walking into that hospital. That watchman is already exposed where they're going to be screened by those people who are living with PPEs. No, right? I was even shocked in one private institution. Apparently we have to hang up. Yeah, in one private institution, I even had a better mask than even the nurses who are attending patients there. So I asked myself, do we even ask ourselves the quality of the PPEs? Because healthcare workers were complaining about the quality of PPEs being procured. So do we procure to procure? It reaches to our level. We just do things for the sake of doing things. But do we do things with a better plan? And we have individuals who are able to see through the whole plan and ensure at the end of, when it's all sitting down, we'll all benefit because they forgot one thing. Even the MPs, I'm sorry to say, I think one was saying they need to be provided helicopter services. I say that is a foolish MP because that day there could be no jet fuel or even a pilot on that day. So what they should have done is sit down and say, we are all together in this. So how can we solve this problem for all of us to benefit? So you're not just helping healthcare workers, as you help healthcare workers, you're also helping yourself as you're helping the public. So as they say, my patting shot, when you do good, you do good to thyself. All right. Thank you so much, Sarah Zander, which is for coming apparently out of time, would have continued with this discussion. But James, we will end it there. Thank you so much for keeping us company. We'll be taking a short break. I'll be back again here with an interview. And we'll be looking into the career, building your career while still undertaking your course. Stay tuned. They have been my guest, which is Cairo Health Economist and Political Analyst. Sarah's a Political Analyst and an Auditor. Thank you so much, ladies and gentlemen, for coming. And thank you for trying to articulate those ideas and putting things into perspective. See you on the other side after this break. Thank you so much for staying with us. If you're just tuned in, this is Y254. Y in the morning breakfast, show time for current affairs and politics as well. We are looking into the health sector, what has been going on. We have seen members of Parliament crying because of the policies of the predicament that is facing the mix in this country. Yet, they are the people who should be doing their best to ensure that we are safe. But we'll be getting into business in a bit in that situation. Very good morning. My name is Adreva Hilewi. I'm joined by Beaches Cairo Health Economist and a Political Analyst as well. And Sarah's a Political Analyst and Auditor. My sub-partisan side here is where we are as a nation. Good morning, Jen. Good morning. Good morning, Hilewi. Thank you. Thank you. All of it has been a while since we were last here together and I want to begin with you, Cyrus. Yes. I want to ask you, are you proud to be a Kenyan? I'm a Kenyan. We're born by everything. And I'm proud. I cannot shy of being a Kenyan. The only thing that I want or the only thing that I desire is things to be done in the right way. We need accountability. We need responsibility. These are the things that we need to have. And I always say accountability is not an option. It's a must. We have to be accountable for everything that we do. We have to be accountable in each and every little resources that we are given. Especially as a country, we have to win. All right. Mitris, Kenyans love you. No, Kenyan is my country. Born and bred in this country. I love my country. Personally, I love my country because I know it has a lot of potential. Only that we are just wasted by a few hooligans who stand to say they are leaders but in actual sense, they are just hooligans, thieves. But the country in itself has great potential. All I want to see in the near future is that we change the culture of Kenyans. We change our value system. You know, when you go to Japan, there's a certain culture. When you go to India, there's a certain culture. I think it's high time we as a country had a certain culture in how we govern ourselves, in how we treat each other as individuals. Because right now, Kenyans are bitter people. When you go to KOT, they are very bitter. It's because of they have been raped by their government every single day for the last 50 years. They have just been raped to the point now they are at a position where they are just bitter, grieving, angry and angered. So I look forward to a country where the government loves its people, leaders love their people, and leaders are sacrificial, not to be selfish and lovers of themselves but actually to be visionally and love the people themselves and also consider that they are part of the society. I just want to look into what she has just said. You see, leaders don't impose themselves on us. We have a ballot paper during the election day. The ballot paper has a number of people on it. You choose who will lead you. You choose who will govern you. On that ballot paper, we have each and every one with their own character. So the choices we make are the consequences that we suffer. But unfortunately it has happened. Everyone we voted in is wrong. If you make wrong choices, then you have consequences. They are consequences. The one we are having right now. So let us not complain. It has to be very intelligent. It is our responsibility. But how can... And responsibility starts with you and I. And that can only happen once first and foremost. And the worst thing is when I hear so many people say I won't vote come 2022. Then you are the worst person. You are the worst enemy of this country. You should practice or exercise your mandate as a Kenyan citizen. In Australia, if you don't vote, it's a crime. I think such a rule, such a law should be introduced in the country. All right. But... Or else... Fair enough. Yeah, but you can put laws. But if the mindset of people has not changed, it will not benefit. So the reason why we choose, the leaders we choose is because of our mindset. I'll give you an example. If somebody has never been exposed to brush their teeth, for example, they may be thinking the way a smelly mouth smells is the norm of the day. So until you introduce to brushing of teeth and fresh breath, you'll never understand why a smelly mouth is bad. So until people... So what has we... Have we people not been exposed to? Hillary, I've already said this. I've already said this. Yes, not everyone is informed. Right? Not everyone is informed. But it is my responsibility, it is my responsibility, her responsibility, okay, to carry out what is called civic education to our people. Right. Let us, let us, let us engage our people through civic education. And we shall have good choices in the near future. Because we know... You're speaking of civic education and I know there's BBI going on. We know what's right. We know what's wrong. We are informed. There are people who are not informed. Let me go to my village, interior. Okay? There are people who are not informed. Right. So these people need civic education. They are still putting on tattered clothes. Okay? It's not that they can't accept the clothes. The problem is, it can't reach them. No matter where they are. What do they need? They need what is called civic education. So if we carry out civic education, when it comes to electoral laws, when it comes to taxation laws, when it comes to our own constitution, it has enlightened our people, okay? How to choose good leaders? How to have good leaders in place? How to have good governance? It has enlightened our people. All right. And then we shall have the good leadership that we have. So we're in agreement. We change our mindset. Change how we view things. And changing of mindset is for individual citizens to take initiative. Initiative to desire great things. To desire bigger things for the country. Not to look at mediocrity and upload and clap hands. Actually, when an MP does a mediocrity work, you should shout down at him. And even the next, they should not be even appointed being a leader again. But what we do, somebody like, what is this? This Machakos government creates a road for three months. And we're all over internet uploading. Then three months down the line, the road is not even functioning. We need to demand what is it? We need to demand the right services. We need to demand quality services. We need to demand excellent services. I have a feeling we'll continually digress here. You see, many guys have always cast gated and thrones stones and people of Mulembe, okay? Right. That they say we are not united. I always say we are united. We always know what we want, okay? When I go to the ballots, I don't need to vote just as the way let me say a kingpin has told me. And the best thing, we don't have a kingpin now. We don't vote for a suit. Where we find, we have all the parties represented, okay? All the parties represented. But when you go to central, where my beautiful friend comes from, okay? We have one party. You see, these are the problems that we have in this country. Let each and everyone practice their democratic right. I should not be coerced. That is a must. I vote for this party. When it does not fit my deal, when it does not fit my demands, let us be smart when it comes to election. All right. Now, speaking of leadership, when coronavirus hit the country, cessation of movement from Nairobi and other counties were put in place. And the directive was the county leadership will come up with a solution and provide more than, are they 300 beds? ICU beds and isolation. And then here we are as a nation. Doctors are dying. One lack of enough beds, ICU beds. And we have lost a good number of our doctors because of the working environment. That was, I don't know what has brought to this. But we went on cessation to enable us and counties to have beds. Then we hear there are no beds. What does that mean? Is it that to make war with Osana? Or the counties never attained those beds? We'll be looking into some of this. The report that has been provided by KMPDU. But before that, we want to listen into what happened in the, this special sitting by KMPDU and where Dr. Nicole was crying for what has been happening to the medics. If we could have that clip now. Before the National Assembly's Health Committee to seek a solution to challenges be deviling the health sector, the doctors cast getting the Ministry of Health for its alleged failure to protect medics from contracting COVID-19. That the doctors working in the COVID-19 facilities hired through the Ministry and Public Service Commission will put on a six-month contract. We should be ending in February. And their condition, as they speak, is that there is no cover. They've not been paid. And there's no assurance of compensation because the compensation that is going to be announced has excluded all these doctors on contract terms. The meeting would have overturned emotional after some members of parliament were moved to tears over the plight of Kenya's healthcare workers. It is very sad. When you go to KEMSA, because they have told us level one, level two and level three, actually there's nothing like a PPS. And when you go to KEMSA, I think the size of this building here is full of PPS. And medical staff are dying there because of lack of distance. What is wrong with this? What's wrong with this with us as Kenyans and as a government? I wish we were having this meeting in State House with the President chairing. He listens too, can make their contribution. That is, you remember my definition of the government? The President and the people he listens to. Those are the people we want to listen to this. I don't like this. Easy, easy. You can do that to your doctors and your health workers, it's not fair. It's not fair. Take it easy. We hear you much more. It's not fair. You know much more. It's painful, doctor. It's painful, doctor. All right. So that's the situation you're seeing members of parliament crying because of the situation of our doctors. I've heard and I've seen so many critics, especially on social media and of course, even in the dailies. He himself, Dr. Nikal, has been in the Ministry of Health. He has been the PS. He has been like there and now. People are like, you're not crying for the right reasons. But there's something he made, the comment he made that that meeting should have been done in status because the president he knows who he listens to. What do you make of this, Cyrus? In the meeting, when you tell me the meeting should have been held in the state house. I take it to be like somebody does not know their responsibility. What is the role of MP? Representation. Legislate, oversight. When we talk of representation, the people who voted for you, you are representing them in that house. They sent you to represent them. They have their needs in that constitution. So they need their needs to be tabled in parliament. Now, when you present them on the floor of the house, what you're doing is also representation. Then you do legislation coming up with the laws on the same bill or on the same items that these people have sent you to do. Then it comes to oversight. The parliament needs to oversight each and every organ of the government when it comes to judiciary, when it comes to executive, when it comes to even the public itself. It needs to oversight. And that's why some extent you follow parliament proceedings, you'll hear parliamentarians discuss how a baby was shot and killed and the family is in limbo. So this is the representation of what should be done by the parliament. Now, when a person has failed in their roles and says the president should come, this meeting should be held in parliament, I know in the state house, we are lying to Kenyans. It was one, these are your responsibilities and when in that house, you allowed the executive to come and to come and trample on you so that it become rubber stumps. You are just rubber stumps to the executive. When the executive says this, you go by it. You don't question, you don't call for accountability. When the budget is brought on the floor of the table, who passes the budget? The parliamentarians. Dr. Nikal is not new to the system. He's in the public health committee because he has been the ministry of health and he has worked on various capacities as a civil servant. So when you come and cry or shed tears, just because you're emotional or just because somebody has just told you something emotional, then you shed tears or cook by tears. It does not add up. What we need is the responsibility. What we need is accountability. What we need is checks and balances that are in place, the budget that you pass through the budget and appropriation committee that still sits in the parliament, which was being chaired by Ishugwa, the Kiku UMP, the former chair. And then we have the public accounts committee. We have the public investment committee. These are some of the serious committees in parliament. Whereby the other committees, the agriculture committee, the judicial committee, the health committee should work closely with and should interrogate when it comes to matters on budget allocation because everything that we see here, every fold that we see here falls in the parliament. If we have better legislation, if we have better oversight rules that are played well by the parliamentarians, then the country will be safe. I want to borrow a leaf from the British parliament and I want to look and diverge into the issue of Brexit when it was being, how it was being handled. If you can remember very well, it was handled very well by the parliamentarians. It came to pass. It came through. Why? Because the parliamentarians did their role well. Look at the America itself. Why am I using these examples? Because we copy them in many things. And we have to because it's a world and you want to do what others do. Now, when you look at America, look at it right now. We have an issue there where Trump has decided not to concede defeat. But see, the things are going on slowly by slowly, the way they are supposed to go. When the parliamentarians, the Congress, questioned the sharing in of the chief justice, the person who died, then they were saying, no, this person should not be sown in at the moment. Let us finish the election, then we swear in another chief justice. So these things brought a quagmire. But the parliamentarians played their own role, though they are supposed to play. The problem with Kenya, not only Kenya, but Africa at large, okay? The problem with Kenya, not only Kenya, but Africa at large. We failed to play our roles when it comes to oversight. All right, let me hear from you, Beatrice. What do you make from the cries of the members of parliament and then the argument that there are no PPEs in yet? We know, KEMSA, there's a case going on. They procured more than they needed. And there's a question on that. So what do you make of this? First and foremost, I would say health care in itself is a dynamic market. It's not like where you sell bananas or where you sell apples. Because the one that you're selling apples, you can define a very good straight line. When it comes to health care, it's dynamic. It's very subjective. Health care is very subjective because it's dependent on an individual. In essence, when you are sick, the person who is sick can describe the level of pain. Nobody else can perceive. But if it's apples, I can say here, they are 10 apples. But when it comes to pain or how I feel about a condition, it's very, very much subjective. When you look at the health care sector in this country, there is a lot of issues. And the issues both come from the health care workers' side and also from the government side. And unless those both sides are addressed, there is no way I am seeing any health reforms in this country. Why am I saying that? When you look at the health care workers' side, you will look for a very long period of time when it comes to leadership position. Only one cadre is given leadership position. So I should say, when you only give one cadre throughout, what happens? They end up having blind spots. For example, you find maybe the CS, like Dr. Milu is the CS. Then you have the permanent director of medical science, another medical doctor. And then when you look at even the counties, all doctors, meaning even in that meeting in parliament, it was only doctors coming to represent their views. So in health care, we don't only have one cadre. We have nurses in the health care sector who are health care workers. We have dentists who are in the health care sector who are health care workers. We have pharmacists in the health care sector who are health care workers. We have lab technicians. We have sonographers. When you look at the array of the health care setting, you cannot have one cadre representing everything. And that is where I feel is the major problem. Major gap. I'll give you a reason. Kemsah was being headed by that doctor. What is he? He's a medical doctor. My ink. Yeah, Kemsah in itself. You should be having a pharmacist leading that institution because they're the ones who understand the drugs and procurement. But why do we have one cadre representing all aspect of leadership when it comes to health care sector? What you end up having is blind spots. And that is what most people don't want to address, whereby we put one cadre at a superior level and others at an inferior level. For me, my belief is this. Different cadres are gifted technically differently. There is what the doctor can address. There is what the nurse can address. There is what the pharmacist can address. There is what the dentist can address. All gifted different technically, but all important because you cannot exclude a doctor. You cannot exclude a pharmacist. You cannot exclude a dentist. So what I would request the government or people in the policymaking, you can have a CS. Preferably, I would prefer having an economist, even if they're political, but at least have an economical background heading that health care department. Then instead of having director of medical services who advises maybe the CS, why don't you have a health management team with all these cadres from around the table? Because the issues of one and the issues of they can come together and then give advice to the CS. Because we have a cast who is also still a medical doctor who sits in the cabinet of the president. So all of a sudden when you realize one cadre is the one in leadership position throughout, you'll end up having blinds. Because actually I told somebody maybe next time, let's have a PS who is a nurse. Maybe leadership would come through that direction because just because someone has a title does not guarantee leadership. That is the perspective we need to change from that. We can have a dentist who is a very good leader and lead in transforming health care. Then even having a medical doctor, you can have a nurse who is very good in leadership. You can have a clinic officer very good in leadership until we address those issues on the health care workers side. Because when doctors represent themselves alone, what happens to the clinic officers? What happens to the nurses? And what happens to even the lab technician? When media houses are writing articles, they just say doctors ask them, what about the other health care workers? I believe we should be writing health care workers are being affected by COVID. Health care workers are dying. Health care workers, you know, instead of using just one type, the health care system is not only doctors just form a portion of the health care system. It's white. The many people involved behind the scenes when it comes to the health care. So until we shift that mindset, and I'll give an example. In the UK, you find that the parliamentarian who is in charge, the minister who is in charge of health in the UK, they don't have a CS or what is it called? They don't have a director medical. What they do is that there's a chief medical officer. There's a chief pharmacist. There's a chief nurse. There's a chief dentist. There's a depending on the character. Then these ones come together and advise. So the chief nurse will say, this is what we're experiencing. The chief medical officer explains the same. The chief dentist and every other kind come together. And there's even chief researcher when it comes to healthcare and scientists. But in Kenya, we have only ballooned to one cadre that is one to lead. And you know, most of them, they only maybe they are talented in one aspect. So for a rich health reforms, all cadres must come together. It cannot be one cadre being at the forefront. So having said that, and that side of healthcare has been addressed, then when it comes to government, I'll ask this question. So every time a budget is done, every time money is provided, but where does the money go, right? Where does that money go? So in the issues of the county governments, the greatest issue they had is that Treasury had not released funds to the county governments. So there's no money to pay salaries, right? There's no money to not only even healthcare workers salaries, even county workers are not being salaries because I believe everybody should be paid irrespective whether you are a lawyer or whatever, but everybody should be paid. So it just tells you one critical thing that we are poor managers. We are poor. We have leaders who don't have the technical know-how on how to understand the budgets. All they are very much selfish to the point that they don't care that the funds that they are misusing or stealing is actually streaming down the line all the way to the public person. So until I'll conquer with my brother here, we have parliament that oversees. We have the Senate that oversees that it can call the president and ask him, you see like in the EU, they were calling Trump, address yourself. Why is this happening? We need a strong legislature. We need a strong judiciary system to counter-check that. Right now we should be, the people who are heading camps should be behind bars. And it's called remand. They should be in remand waiting for a case because it doesn't make sense. You procure all those equipment and PPEs, they are stored, they are stored somewhere. And then there is a doctor or a nurse somewhere dying out of COVID. So until we change that aspect where you are caught on the wrong as we wait for your case to be handled, remand, you are somewhere in remand before that issue is being addressed. Though I would say the healthcare workers have a right, whatever they are articulating, it's true. But this is already a sign that the country is broke. This is just a clear, clear sign that the country is broke. And why is it broke? Because people misappropriated funds and unfortunate thing is that even among the same healthcare workers they were part of the leadership, part of the system. Just like Dr. Nikal was trying to cry, he was part of the system. He has been part of the healthcare industry as a leader. But what do they do? They eat together with those who are corrupt. So as much as healthcare workers are crying and shouting that leadership should be changed, they should begin with themselves. They should actually question that doctor who was in cancer, who is one of their colleagues, they should be holding him accountable, right? Though it's supposed to be if you're a nurse and you find one of your leader nurse is doing the wrong thing, then you as members and colleagues should hold that person accountable. I hope that doctor who was heading in cancer is not a member of KMPDU because KMPDU should hold him accountable. She didn't take him to court because if he's a member of that and should even terminate his membership, that is the correct thing to do. But you cannot be castigating the government here, but one of your members is also doing the wrong thing on the other end, right? So we need to look into that. I want to concur with her from what she has raised. And she has raised very valid points. And from what I can sum up from my point, from where I'm seated is that she is now talking about having a diversified health commission. A diversified health commission whereby everyone is on board. A public person who is not a doctor is on board. Are you alluding to what is in the BBI proposal? Ah, you see what I'm saying. We are not discussing about the BBI thing. We are discussing about the facts on the ground. And I want to borrow a leave about the Judiciary Service Commission. Look at the Judiciary Service Commission. It has a member. He's not a lawyer. He's not a bad advocate. He's not any person who knows the law. But he's a member of the public, okay? Like Professor Mugenda. Does she know law? Has she gone to school to study law? No. But she's a member of JEC. We have other persons also in the same JEC. Now, if we have a health commission, look at also TAC. Nancy Masharo is not a teacher. She's never gone to school to teach. But she's the one heading Teacher Service Commission. So when you have diversified opinions from all angles, then the system itself will be well managed. But when we have only one type of persons, in that area, then the system will become blotted. All right. I want you to hold on that thought. We take a very short commercial break. When we come back, we will address that and then we look into the deaths that have been reported among medical officers. Of course, Kenyans have lost their lives, but now we are looking into health sector. We take a very short break. Please stay with us.