 stuff helping out so thanks for joining me yeah I'm happy to be here it's exciting all right so you've been with Docker about a year or so yeah back 18 months a little over okay and tell us a little bit about your background I know you worked at Puppet you know what brought you to Docker and what's your kind of day-to-day job there yeah so actually going way back you know I was actually an IT architect and a network I was a certified Banyan engineer I was an MCSC 3.1 MT 3.1 and and I did you know we did ourselves I remember Banyan I'm a networking guy I mean here in New England we have lots of those technology you know Bay and all those companies that you know the 128 quarter like used to be known for networking now the younger generations and like no no it's all in the valley yeah I actually took my some of Banyan training over here in Worcester yeah just like up the road so I did that for a long time and then at some point was recruited into Microsoft and started as a systems engineer moved into product marketing product management so I shipped a bunch of versions of Windows got caught in an earthquake with Bill Gates on stage from there I went ended up at VMware did about six years at VMware which is where I learned about virtualization after that I moved to Puppet Labs spent about 18 months there that sort of got me to open source and then sort of bringing those two technologies together or sort of solving those same sort of problems in a different way there was an opportunity to go to work with Docker with some of the people I'd worked with previously at VMware who I really respect yeah it was interesting I remember it wasn't the like founders in the early people but when Docker really started growing there's a bunch of VMware talent on there because while they they aren't completely opposed and have to you know not work with others some of the growth and some of the ecosystem that you need to build at least to me it rhymes as to what I remember from 15 years ago when virtualization was coming out is that fair assessment yeah I mean I think I see parallels there right I mean we need a management plane we need to figure out how that we kind of got the networking worked out we got to work on the storage components we just did the infinite acquisition to help us along that way but yeah I definitely see parallels from where I was when I joined VMware in 2008 to where I am at Docker today okay great and maybe you know we had it many times we've had you know Ben Goloban you know the Cube every year at DockerCon and most of our audience hopefully knows the you know VM Docker and how they fit together but maybe just give us the thumbnail as to you know why it's you know cats and dogs living together is okay with VMs in Docker yeah for sure I mean I think it's actually like different types of dogs or different types of cats right the end of the day the beauty of Docker is the infrastructure that you run your application on is your choice and most of our customers today are actually choosing virtualization right VMware or Hyper-V or whatever it is and the reality is that's a that's a good choice you may not have the the quantity of workload it takes to natively drive the utilization you need to make your hardware affordable if you're just running containers right we're in the early days the early stages so being able to put some containers next to some traditional VMs to maximize resource capabilities is a big use case the other one is around some of the functionality and existing tool sets right so if you are a VMware shop and you've invested into vSphere administrators and they and they've got their tooling in place you might want to leave that intact while you come up to speed on containers and the beauty of the container is if it makes sense to be in a VM that workload can stay in the VM if it makes sense to move it to the cloud we can easily move it to the cloud or even to bare metal and there's reasons for all three of those scenarios but Docker just makes it much simpler to kind of pick and choose where it's going to end up yeah my guy one of the lines I love from it from your session it was you know you have to make a lot of decisions along the way and what containers can help do is insulate you from oops I made an architectural you know I need to make a shift maybe I didn't make the best architectural decision and and I can make some some different changes there yeah you know I what I generally do is I ask the audience is how many of you have done a complex architecture and got it right the first time there's usually like one guy and nobody likes that guy but he's in the audience but the rest of us are mortal and and when you make a decision you say well we put it in the cloud but it really should have been in the data center the economics of that application are not suited for cloud or or it's in the data center but I really want to be able to do some bursting and scaling let's move it back to the to the cloud those sort of things become less convoluted with Docker containers than they do traditionally yeah so the whole cloud discussion has gotten really complicated over the last few years even you know I've been at AWS reinvent the last few years and what was really simple four years ago it's like wow they announced a thousand new features this year and there's so many pieces everything from yeah containers how they fit to you know they have slammed the serverless stuff there you know I try to say well let's start with your applications and your data and what are you trying to do there so talk to us about you know how does Docker look at applications you know what kind of applications are fitting into you know kind of the Docker environment you know what's kind of the same as what we had before and what's what's different yeah so when I joined in in summer 2015 18 months ago you didn't talk about Docker unless you were talking about micro services and DevOps right and it was a lot of buzzword soup and what we're seeing as we talked to customers who were deploying in production we're seeing people doing a lot of lifting and shifting right they're saying I want to I want to improve my resource utilization or I want to have some portability so let me put this thing in a container and then maybe I will take it and I will start breaking it apart and maybe I'll call out the authorization module and I'll have an authorization container and the rest of the application and maybe I'll pull out the catalog look up or I'll pull out the you know user catalog or whatever it is and so we really are seeing people focus sort of on like taking that monolithic application moving it into a container typically they're starting with the front-end applications and then they're moving to the databases second because databases while we have hundreds of customers doing them every day actually don't have any we have maybe we have hundreds maybe we have thousands maybe we have two I don't know we have customers doing it but you know they do people do use databases with Docker and that's a common misconception that you can't but it requires a little bit more planning so people say let's go for the low-hanging fruit and then move into those more deep you know sort of demanding scenarios second in the second phase okay and the other big change over the last year or so is it used to always be Linux and now you've got Windows containers in there how does that impact what applications are going on to a Docker environment well I think the beauty of that is I don't want a solution for 40 to 60% of my data center right and we talked to people I talked to somebody they said what do you run they go we run red hat I'm like well how much red hat well 60% I'm like well okay so you don't want to leave 30 or 40% of your data center out in the cold so by bringing Docker containers and that's the really cool thing is it is Docker it's the Docker engine running on Windows it's over two years of joint effort and engineering between Microsoft and Docker to make that happen and so now we're seeing people looking at IIS web apps we've seen SQL Server be put into a container you know coupling it with nano server it gets really exciting to build lightweight containers for next generation applications so it's the the whole embracing of open source by Microsoft their work top five contributed to the Docker open source project I think it just it it's nothing but goodness for IT operators everywhere yeah and you know this started out as a you know V mug and when they talk about VMware applications I mean the number one application it's Windows stuff I mean it was always Windows was in there absolutely that must give a nice roadmap to be able to either you know extend or change into the container ecosystem yeah and I think I think you know I had a friend that I worked with Charles Wyndham at VMware and Charles got internet famous or what I'm gonna call it because he figured out how to really production allies exchange on to VMware wrote a book about it spoke about it all the VM worlds I think that you know you're gonna start seeing that sort of work being done in the container world people are gonna look at some line of business applications maybe some package software and say okay how do I get this optimized I had a lot of people come up to me and say how can I get SharePoint running in a container I think that would be great I don't I don't know I know that it's been done but you know getting it to work in the lab and getting to work in production different things but I think that's the journey we're on right in that same journey we went on with with virtualization so like you know I've been watching Docker for a number years now and it's been a bit of a roller coaster I mean I remember like two years ago it was you know everybody's like Docker Docker Docker and last year with Docker data center and some of the you know movement that Docker has made you know some of the ecosystem revolted a little bit it feels like some of the air has come out of some of the hype are we in you know okay what I want to understand from you is you know what do you hear from customers is this just you know the talking heads and the people that watch the industry are we in the you know what's that the trough of disillusionment right now you know what do you hear from users how much do they look at that ecosystem in feedback out there versus you know what they're just using your stuff for I think I think there's a there's the truth is somewhere in between and I'm not sure how far to one extreme or the other the reality is that I don't go to an event where people aren't just like effusive about Docker they love Docker and and I love that like I remember getting that feeling at VMware as well people love them yes X in the early days it solved real problems for them but yeah I mean I think there has been some discontent on the fringes and I think people who are more deeply into the ecosystem may feel that a little more profoundly but like today I'm in a room with maybe 50 100 people I don't know how many were in there there was three people that had used Docker yeah right and so when you live in that space everything is amplified the reality is that the orchestration work isn't over the the moves that Docker has made to make the platform better for our customers are I think the right moves and I think that the ecosystem is going to find the balance it needs over the next couple of years you know and I think that I think that there's plenty of space for everybody and and at Docker we've always believed batteries included but replaceable and so I think that will continue to be our mantra yeah okay can you help part so great feedback thank you on that just some of the like the orchestration discussions there I mean Microsoft's a partner you know there's all the stuff that they're they're doing in Azure Kubernetes you know obviously has a lot of activity going on there and you know we were at KubeCon and you know it seems to be you know a lot of growth there you've got Mezos out there there's other options versus kind of Docker swarm how does that play out for you guys today so nobody wants to and if you actually if you I was watching a Kubernetes chalk talk and the first thing the guy said was nobody just wants to deploy a container you've got to do something with it so if everybody wants to do something with a container then does not belong in the engine does not belong in the runtime and that's sort of the kind of the I think the way we kind of looked at it was like you have to orchestrate these things and we've had swarm coming from fig for years right we just did a better version of it and we integrated it more tightly with the engine because really when you do that there's a whole bunch of other things you can do behind it like we're releasing Docker 1.13 actually released yesterday and it includes secrets management which is for swarm mode because it uses the swarm distributed store so by having that architecture there's a whole bunch of things we can do yes there's Kubernetes and that's a great solution right and and for some customers they may look at that and say that works for them and other customers you know there's Mezos if you if you have to orchestrate multiple types of workloads maybe Mezos is a good choice for you Mezos and Marathon I think that you know I think that we're very proud of the work that the community and and our developers have done around swarm mode I think that customers are excited by it you know you get this sort of fully highly available secure by default with TLS encryption with the service discovery and the load balancing and everything and you get it started with four four words like you know Docker swarm create or Docker swarm init right and and you've got a swarm running it's hard to argue against that yeah curious how does serverless impact what are you guys doing is you know when we talked about kind of the adoption and people understanding containers I mean serverless we're a little bit earlier in there but you know definitely reinvent this last year oh my god I mean we all got echo dots and you know I know lots of people that are home creating skills a little bit different use case but micro services and stuff comes up so you know how do those fit together yeah you know I honestly don't know okay right I think that I think that that is a path that you have to be sorted out we did have a hack it wasn't a product announcement or anything but we had a hack of of serverless Docker at Docker con I think in Europe it might have been here in yeah it was in Europe you know so so people are out there kind of monkeying around and finding out where those bridges are I think that when you start looking at like how do you bridge to legacy I think Docker is probably a better position to bridge to legacy than say serverless but next gen I'm not sure you know I mean I think services compelling it'd be interesting to see where it goes as a technologist I think it's cool yeah absolutely and it's definitely one of those emerging errors all right last question I have for you Mike you talk about you know all these emerging all these things changing you know the pace of change is just you know it's we're at breakneck speed these days you know a friend of mine and I was sat down we said you know we used to all work on 18 month release cycles and then you know things like opensack came out and we're like okay yearly release cycles it's like you know Docker I think is that like six week release cycles and when I talk to people inside of Docker it's like boy is it tough to keep up for that and if the people inside creating it or having a hard time you know the ripple effect to you know those practitioners those users I mean you know like you did earlier in your career how do you how do you help people as you're out talking to users how do you how do you deal with that pace of change if you're you know running IT yeah first I acknowledge it accept and validate everything you just say I had someone come up to me and say how do you keep track of it all I'm like like I just do my best I mean and I'm there and I have briefings and and but I think you know one thing we're trying to be is very open and sharing so we hold Docker online meetups almost weekly like I think every other week there's an online meetup where you can get hear from the engineers that are working on the stuff a lot of blog postings a lot of stuff in the community but I think if you're out there and you're a vSphere admin today or you're a you know scvvm or vmm out there whatever it is you're using and you're interested in Docker rather than chase the technology chase the use case figure out what matters to you and how do I implement that using Docker and that's going to allow you to sort of the wheat from the chaff signal to noise right you're going to focus on things you care about maybe you don't care about orchestration today because it's not quite there yet maybe maybe the networking you just need the sort of fundamental benefits I think if you if you focus on the the use case the problem you're trying to solve you'll learn at the pace that's right for you and we'll do everything that we can through meetups online in person blog postings you know our github account is a great way to stay abreast of everything we're doing for the people who want to be super aggressive and and super involved we'll put that stuff out there for them all right well Mike's great advice for for the users really appreciate you taking the time to come talk to our audience and we'll be back with lots more coverage here and be sure to check out silicon angle dot tv we will be at docker con austin in april so be sure to check that out and thanks for watching the cube since the dawn of the cloud the cube has been