 this whole debate around cardio. Look, I'm going to say it straight up when it comes to just fat loss and you have your, you have cutting calories, strength training and cardio at the bottom is cardio cardio is not an effective long-term fat loss approach. It is not short-term. You'll get some results long-term. It's terrible. We've talked about this many times, but there's health benefits from it. So we're not anti-cardio. We're anti-using it for the wrong reason. And the people it stirs up the most is the guy or the girl who gets up every day and they run for a half hour, every hour to start their day. And they've been doing it for five to 10 years. I'm not talking to you. Yeah. I'm not talking to you. Keep doing that. If you love to run and it's an, this beautiful escape for you or like someone of a meditation, like I am all for that. That's awesome. I'm talking to someone just like this. I'm used to being 260 pounds. I worked my ass off to get down to 227 and now I'm trying to go from 227 down to 180, which is 40, 40 pounds still. I want to lose 40 pounds and I'm wanting to get on the, on the treadmill right now, terrible fucking idea. What's up, everybody? Here's the giveaway for today's episode. Maps, Anabolic, the program that started it all. So if you want to win this program for free, here's what you gotta do. Leave a comment below in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel and turn on notifications. Do all those things. And then if we pick your comment, you'll win free access to Maps. We also have a sale going on right now. The starter bundle is 50% off. That's Maps, Anabolic maps prime and the intuitive nutrition guide. And then maps split. This is an advanced bodybuilder style body part split routine. That's 50% off. So if you're interested, you want to sign up, go to maps, fitnessproducts.com and then use the code may special for that 50% off discount. All right. Here comes the show when all things are considered. Generally speaking, free weights are superior to machines. You know, I want to bring this up because there's a couple of articles I've been reading people are sending me showing studies comparing free weights to machines when it comes to muscle growth. And the studies will show that there isn't a difference that you build the same amount of muscle using machine as you do using free weights. There's even some studies that show for power output. It's the same, but that's when they use the same exercise. So if you do leg press, you'll see, you know, good power output there. If you do squat, so you get power output there. But the thing I think a lot of people miss because we focus so heavily on just muscle development, well, there's two things. One is free weight exercises mimic real life far better because if you're going to lift something, if you're going to squat down, if you're going to lift something off the ground or it's rarely on a track or a cable, generally, you're not supported. Yeah, I'm going to put a box up and, you know, up high or pick up my kids. I mean, it just it's closer to free weights. Free weights are more like real life. So the carryover because strength is very specific, right? If you gain strength, most of the strength you gain is in that specific movement. And it's it's a shorter it's a shorter path from a free weight exercise to real life versus machine to real life. So that that right there is huge. And I think that can be understated. The other part is a lot of these studies are short, right? 16 weeks, you know, maybe at the most, you know, five months. But after training people for years and years and years, I've just consistently across the board seen more consistent gains in strength and muscle and performance with free weights than I have with machines with machines. I feel like I need more variety, more novelty than I would with with free weights. Yeah, it just seems like you're segmenting the body a lot when you're focused more on machines. And I this is where I look at free weights is a lot more specific with with challenging stability and control. And I think that, you know, that all kind of falls into the functional everyday type of movements like you're talking about. And it's just like it's more beneficial for you to load these type of movements that you may find yourself in or, you know, obviously for athletics, you know, that's that's a big component is getting the whole body to communicate really well together. And once we start segmenting the body up, and yes, you can build muscle development in a lot of those different, very specific areas. But do they communicate well with each other? Is it balanced or is it, you know, did you just create more imbalances this way by sort of chopping it up? The irony of this conversation is that the beginner who I think benefits the most from starting in the free weight world tends to gravitate towards the machines and the advanced lifter who I think benefits the most from machines is the ones that maybe neglect it. So I think like when you've been training for a really long time, there's tremendous value, in my opinion, to utilizing machines because it's different, the strength curve is different. When you are lifting with cables for or a machine, the time and attention and the strength curve is very different than free weights. Now, in reality, they would benefit the most from from sticking to free. You look at a dumbbell and there's a thousand exercises you can do with that dumbbell, but there's no picture next to it showing you exactly what to do. Or if you walk into a gym, there's a lot more to consider. Yeah, you don't have a lot of exercise experience. I can go up to a machine and go, what is this? And I can look at the picture and kind of figure out where I'm supposed to go, how I'm supposed to sit, what happens with the with the barbell or a dumbbell. It's like a blank canvas almost. There's no color, you know, by the numbers type of deal. So I can totally get that. Here's the other thing, too, that a lot of people may not realize people often refer to machines as being safer. In some cases, that's true. But in some cases, it's not true. Like if you've ever tried to train someone that's really tall or really short or really overweight, you'll find that machines are inappropriate because machines, even though they have adjustable components, it's still very limited. Whereas free weights follows the person. If you're seven foot tall and overhead press is the same as if you're five feet tall, you go in a machine. And although you can adjust the arms a little bit, it's still very limited. And you some machines are just inappropriate. I mean, Adam, you're six, three. So you're tall, but you're not like so tall that it's crazy. I bet you there's certain machines that just didn't work for you because most machines I had, I would have to like slide my hips back on on it and or like angle different to actually get the field. Now, luckily I understand biomechanics and I know what I'm trying to accomplish by that machine. So I can wedge my body in and slide around to get the perfect angle. But yet most machines, I don't actually fit in well. And I'm like I said, I'm six, three. I'm not like abnormally tall. So you're six, five, six, six stuff machines. I mean, it's I think it's like made for the average male at five, ten or something. Five, nine. Is that what it is? Yeah, five, nine male. That's average. Yeah, that in the U.S. it is where most of these machines are made. So it's five, nine. And then they'll have you can adjust up and down so you'll get a few inches up or down. But I mean, it's true. I remember having clients, I'll get them on a machine. Even if I do the adjustments, I'm like, this isn't lined up well. You know, that your elbow has to lift up for you to perform this particular exercise. Whereas with free weights, of course, so long as the weight is appropriate, I could apply that to anybody. Like it doesn't matter how tall or short you are. There's also the, there's also the, how quickly the body adapts to the machine versus free weights, right? So one of the other perks for training a new client on free weights is the learning curve, the skill acquisition of using free weights is longer than sitting in a machine. So the body is going to adapt to that preacher curl on a machine or that peck deck much faster than they are going to do a standing bicep curl or a dumbbell chest fly. So you reap more benefits from the free weights because it's challenging. But I get why they, I mean, because one of the things we have to remember try and remind ourselves is that, you know, we either had athletic backgrounds or in your case, you've been lifting since you were, you know, 14 years old or whatever. But people that have no experience, no athletic background, you know, lifting weights is really challenging. I mean, and can be very intimidating. Yeah. And so it's easy to avoid it and go do something where you can just sit in a machine, but you're really missing out on so much more if, if by avoiding them. Yeah. Well, and the other part too is I think when people are very absolute, I think then their arguments start to get kind of picked apart. Like I don't think every free weight exercise is superior to every machine counterpart. Like a cable fly is superior to a dumbbell fly, in my opinion, because the tension is consistent throughout. Was it with a dumbbell fly? It's heavy at the bottom. And then when I come up to the top, there's no tension. How, so that's just one example. However, however, the best free weight exercises are better than the best machine exercises. So when we're talking about a, you know, a barbell squat, barbell squat generally is better than the best leg machine that you can find. For overall, for, and again, we're not just saying just for quad growth. I hate it when bodybuilders argue that crap. Oh, quad growth is okay, fine. You're a bodybuilder. You want to just sculpt your body and you don't really care about this kind of stuff. I get it, but if you're, we're looking at everything muscle growth, fat loss, mobility, function, carryover, all that stuff. A barbell squat generally is better than any leg machine. A barbell deadlift. I don't think there's a machine that even mimics a barbell deadlift, right? An overhead press. Well, you can make the argument that some machine overhead presses are pretty damn good, but I would argue that a standing overhead press just is far more functional and it's just mimics real life more. So there's definitely machines that are better than their free weight counterparts. But when it comes to the best exercises, free weights are just the best. And, you know, again, especially if you do this long enough, you just see this, you just see this. And look, even with rehab, if you look at what physical therapists use in rehab, they use either free weights or devices that are more like free weights than machines. So they'll use things like bands or elastic material, right? That's more like a free weight than a machine because it can go anywhere. They use some machines, but not much. In fact, we work with a company called Luna and through their own study, they found that over 90% of rehab can be done at home with basic paradigm bells that they'll bring and some resistance bands. They don't have these big machines that they need to use all the time. If you've ever been to a physical therapy clinic, you'll know this, you'll see that. So it's just overall, they're superior. And I think it's a silly debate. And again, I hear the bodybuilder crowd sometimes and there's some real funny people with that. You can develop just as big of legs with the leg presses you can with the squat. All right, even if that was true and you can do the exact same muscle with a leg press and a squat, which one in the real world is gonna make you more functional, have more carryover and improve your quality of life better? Generally speaking, it's gonna be the squat. Yeah, I mean, for me, it's never really, you know, this or that, like it's not either or. It's a combo of both. And because of the value of free weight training, it's just something that I don't stray away from for too long. Like I like machines for a novel stimulus and it's definitely something that will provide your muscles like a whole new response. But in terms of the adaptation, like it is pretty quickly adapted to that fixed position. So I still like to combo the both. So I maximize, you know, my efforts in terms of like hypertrophy training specifically. So I'm still getting the strength, but also now I can add volume pretty easily with machines. To address your point about the bodybuilding community, there's, and it's been happening for a while now, there's this, you know, movement around the muscle activation studies on all these machines. And I think that it's unfortunate because it doesn't tell the full story. No, it doesn't encapsulate everything. Yeah, but that's the argument that a lot of them will use is, oh, have you seen the muscle activation studies on this machine versus a barbell back squat? And they'll show you that like a hack squat will activate more quad muscle than the, you know, barbell back squat. Therefore, they think, and from a bodybuilder perspective while I'm trying to train and activate that muscle more than anything else, therefore it's better for building muscle. And it's not true. And it's an argument that you see circulating the bodybuilding community and all over social media all the time. Yeah, and I've heard, I've even heard them make the argument that like, because there's studies that will show that an isolation exercise will build as much muscle in a targeted muscle as a compound exercise. So like a leg extension will build as much quad muscle as a squat. This is the argument that I'll hear and there's these short studies that may show it and you got to look at the, obviously the subjects and all that stuff. But I'm like, man, you know, sometimes what we do, you know, would it, Max Lugovir said something really good in a past podcast. He said, be evidence, what was it? Evidence-based, but not evidence-bound. Evidence-based, not evidence-bound, right? So like, could you really, do you really think you could go to any strength coach and say to them, hey, if I compared an athlete who just did squats to an athlete that did leg extensions, leg curls, abductor machine and adductor machine, which one's going to build more muscle? Cause leg extension, leg curl, abductor, adductor, technically we'll hit all the muscles, you know, then a squat wheel, oh, throwing maybe a glute kickback or something like that. It'll activate all the same muscles, but is any strength coach really going to be like, yeah, you'll build as much strength as muscle? No, every strength coach to be like, nah, it's not going to be the same thing. It's just not going to work as well. I mean, the fact that this is even in an argument is actually a really good thing, because what it is, and to Justin's point, is it should never be exclusively one or the other. It's like, this just shows that there's tremendous value in both the fact that people will actually argue that one is a better, what's better than one or the other is both, you know. Depending on what you need and, you know, you pick the right tool. Yeah, and or what you've been doing for so long. Imagine if you were the freeway guy all the time. That's what I'm doing right now. I've been doing lots of machines lately, just to give my body a change, because I've always done almost everything. And tremendous value in that. And then the reverse is true, if you were this guy that all you did was machines all the time, like imagine moving over into freeway. So they both have tremendous value and the truth is instead of, you know, and because this is the problem with our space is we get into these camps all the time. And it's like, this is better than that. And then the average person, they identify with one or the other more or they feel more comfortable with one or the other more. And then they stick in that. And the truth is like, man, forget all that noise about which is better. It's like, they're both tremendous and have value. Learn how to weave in and out of both. Yeah, totally. Speaking of two things with tremendous value, I actually have been getting quite a few DMs lately from athletes that wanted to kind of express an actual combo that they've been using for performance for their games or, you know, for competing. And they've been using the Organify Red Juice in combination with Pure, which I thought was brilliant. Oh, you have? I've done that before Pure and Red Juice. Oh, I haven't done that yet. That was a nice jam. I was like, duh, that makes so much sense because now you got all the stamina and endurance, you know, provided from the Red Juice and then combination with that clear focus. Yeah, two of the key ingredients in the Red Juice are cordyceps and rhodiola, both proven to improve stamina and endurance. And I was inspired to try the Red Juice again because of how you said it helped you with your caffeine withdrawal. And it works, it definitely helps. The issue I had with rhodiola before was the dose. So I'm realizing I need a lower dose. I was going too high, just like caffeine, right? Like there's a dose that makes you feel good, too much makes you feel like crap. I'm sensitive to rhodiola and the Red Juice has the right dose. In the past, I've taken rhodiola capsules by itself, taken too much and I get this weird like... I don't like sleepy. Yeah, sleepy, like I feel like I'm in a sauna almost, like dark cloud or whatever. Yeah, the Red Juice with Pure, excellent. I want to try that now. Somewhat stimulant free. I say somewhat stimulant free because rhodiola has a bit of a stimulant effect. By the way, you would like this, Justin. I know you're into Soviet studies. You got to read the Soviet studies on rhodiola. They were big on using rhodiola for strength, stamina, recovery. I mean, it's one of the proven herbal supplements that actually improves, like across the border. In cognitive performance. It's cool when you can find that from herbal sources, right? And it's not like some crazy drug compound. Dude, speaking of sauna, I got to tell you guys, hilarious, well, it's kind of funny, but it also kind of paints how the average person views strength training. So every day I work out before we come here. And then if I have time, I'll do the sauna. If I don't have time, I'll do the steam room because it's much faster. Well, today I had time. So I went in the steam room, I'm sorry, sauna, and I'm sitting there and this is, it's cool because that's why I get to reflect on things and kind of set myself up with some gratitude. Can't take my phone in there. So I'm just chilling. Well, this guy comes in, older guy, I want to say he's probably maybe a little older than me. And he sits down and then he like strikes up a conversation, which is cool, you know? So we start talking and he goes, hey man, he goes, you got a great physique. Oh, thanks. You know, I appreciate it. But they're like being naked in a sauna, having a guy come put you in. Well, he said it in a very, you know, I don't feel, I felt like he was being genuine or whatever, so I'm like. Seriously, you might have a touch, you know, the arm or something. Yeah, he's like your glutes. No, he said, you ever really, you got a, you know, you got a great physique, man. You've been working out for a while. I'm like, yeah. And he's like, how long have you been working out? So we're kind of talking. And he goes, yeah, he goes, you know, I never really got into strength training. And I'm like, oh yeah. And he goes, yeah, I do, you know, rowing and cycling and so why, how come you've never done strength training? It's so valuable. I said, I wrote a book on it. And he was like, I'm just, you know, I don't want to get too big. Is that what inspired that tweet you did the other day? Yes. Oh, that's what inspired that tweet. So I'll well know that I did the tweet first. Oh, that's ironic. Yeah, this happened today. That's ironic. I know that tweet and then that just happened. Yeah. So he's like, I don't want to get too big. And I said, listen, I said, you won't. Don't worry about it, it's not gonna happen. You know what actually though, Justin? I mean, what you're saying though, Salis, is it's actually more common than we actually talk about. We always, we always pick on girls for saying that. Some guys will say that too. A lot of guys would say that. I know a lot of... You want to get too big? Yes. I know a lot of guys, a lot of guys that are cyclers, rowers, and they kind of gravitate towards those things that they know that has a strength component to it, right? To cycle, you got to have strong legs, to row, you got to have strong legs. You want that weight to strength ratio to be nice and tight. You know what's even funny about that is, I've talked to people like that. I don't want to get too big. And by the way, the tweet that I put, it was something like, people who don't lift weights because they're afraid of looking like a bodybuilder, it's like being afraid of working hard because you're gonna become a billionaire. It's the same thing. So anyway, I've actually talked to people and they'll be like, and then they'll do this thing, right? Well, no, no, you don't understand. I, my legs just totally, all my shoulders just get so... It gets monstrous. I do anything they just grow. I try not to roll my eyes, you know? So he said that to me. I don't want to get too big. And I said, you won't. He goes, no, I build muscle really. I said, you don't... I don't look at fitness. I said, you don't, you don't build muscle that easily. And he goes, what do you mean? I said, well, I said, listen. And so I explained, I did my whole talking, like the spectrum of muscle building genetics. I said, unless you're like a seven-foot tall person in terms of muscle building genes. And they said, in no offense, I said, you obviously, you work out, but I'm looking at you. You don't have those genes, right? You just complimented me. I said, I don't either. And I told him, I said, I don't either. I said, I don't have those genes either. I said, I've been working out. You just took 30 years, bro, just to get here. I've been just having over 90. I've been lifting weights consistently, hard trying to get too big. And it doesn't work. You should have came back and been like, I know, that's why I don't do the row or anything. I would just dominate, like, me. Well, it's weird you said that. I just started lifting weights yesterday. Can you tell? I could just get up and do a marathon. Almost too big already, ah, you know. No, it's true, though. But there's, there's, I wouldn't say an equal amount, but there's quite a few guys I remember too that would get. And I find that actually more popular today than now. I don't know what it, I don't know if it's the generation coming up that like millennials. We need more Arnold films. You know what I mean? That's what's, that's the difference. It was weird to me as an early trainer because all I wanted to do was look like Arnold. So I remember guys saying that. Those are the example we grew up with. It was all those movies, action movies. Like you saw this with action movie stars. Like they just got smaller and smaller and smaller. They did. And it's like, what we have left is like, I guess we have Marvel characters, like some superhero, but they're just kind of clad, you know. Didn't one of the, what was it, the most recent Spider-Man or Batman like refused to lift weights to get ready for the role? No way. Are you serious? No, no, I thought, what's his name? No, no, he was Glitter Vampire last Batman. No, I thought he did lift weights. No, read it, look up, look up, see. Yeah, am I right? Thank you. What did he say, Andrew? Show, pull it up. I want to see what he's saying. He refused to lift weights for the role. Patterson or what's his name, something like that. Yeah, look up the most recent Batman, whoever, I don't know who the main guy is. I still haven't seen the movie yet. But I did. Pattinson. Okay, Robert Pattinson. There's an article, I came across it. You know what he's going to say? I don't want to lift weights so I did a bunch of like body weight, still strength training. What's it say, Doug? Yeah, he says he refuses to work out constantly for Batman role because he doesn't want to set a precedent. What are you talking about? It's Batman. In other words, if he wants to do a sequel, maybe he doesn't want to have to be jacked for it. I don't know what. A precedent like that or that this is what people should look like. Oh, that could be that too. You know what's funny though? Can I say something? Because that's why I think it's. Have you guys seen Batman, dude? It's more popular now. The last one that like put the effort in. Have you seen the last Batman? Have you guys seen it? Let me hear it, Doug. Yeah, so this is what he said. I think if you're working out all the time, you're part of the problem set. Wow. Referring to his fellow Hollywood actor. You're a fucking superhero, dude. He said, you set a precedent, he added. No one was doing this in the 1970s, even James Dean. He wasn't exactly ripped. Well, James Dean wasn't playing Batman either. And wait, hold on, hold on. People were way more active anyway. What does he mean if you're not working out all the time? What a moron. And that sounds lazy to me. Is that funny? Anyway, well look. But that's all part of this issue that we're talking about. There's like this movement that direction. Well, so, okay, so two things. I watched the Batman. I don't know if you guys watched it. You guys watched it. I haven't watched it yet. I've heard like split in the middle of people. Loved that people hate it. It's way more realistic than other Batman's. And what I mean by that, remember the last Joker with what's his name? What's his name? Yeah. Remember how that was kind of like they- It's super creepy. But it was also somewhat realistic. Like, oh, he's actually crazy. He's really mentally ill. Yes. So this Batman is somewhat realistic. He's still a billionaire. He's still just like this really good detective. But he doesn't have like this crazy tech that would never, you know what Batman's got like? Like where did he get that jet plane that it's got- He's got the grappling gun. No, this is like an actual, when you watch it, it's like he's an actual billionaire who's a really good detective. He gets his ass kicked. The Batmobile looks like a souped up muscle car. Doesn't look like this crazy like- Okay, so what are your thoughts on that thing? So him not looking super jacked actually worked. Because when you watch it- Well, it works for the role, but what do you guys think about that? Stupid. Yeah, I mean, he's weak. He's a superhero. Yeah, come on, dude. Yeah, no, dude. It's not supposed to be- It's supposed to be the example. It's not supposed to be obtainable. It depends on the superhero. I didn't, I never watched, you know, Superman or Batman as a kid and been like, I'm so gonna be- You're not gonna put in the work. Look, if you're Plastic Man or The Flash, yeah, you're not supposed to be big. That's your role, right? But if you're Batman, Batman is jacked in the comic books. I mean, come on, he doesn't even have his superpowers. At least have some muscle. Yeah, Spider-Man, you can be tiny and a little kid or whatever. No, it's ridiculous. Not Batman. No, it cracks me up. No, you know what's funny? I had this conversation with someone a while ago. I remember him going, this guy said, you know, I don't wanna get too big type of deal. And then he goes, yeah, he goes, I'd rather look like a, because I don't wanna look like Arnold. He goes, I'd rather look like Van Damme. And I remember I told him, I said, hold on a sec. You know how much Van Damme had to work out? I'm like, bro, exactly. I said, if you worked out for years and had the perfect diet and everything, you probably still wouldn't look like Van Damme, just so you know, dude, how hard that would be, you know? This is like the same struggle. I told you guys, like, when I'm trying to, like, motivate these, like, high school kids to, like, put on size because they're getting pushed around, you know? And they just don't get it. Like, they're just thinking, like, getting cut and all this so they're on the beach, like, yeah. It's a high school kid, abs were everything, bro. Like, when you're in high school. Yeah, but you can't build very much. Not when you're playing a sport where you're gonna get punked and look like a little bitch. Yeah. Like, come on, dude, like, get big. I don't want abs when I was in the high school. I was insecure about being skinny. I had them naturally. Ironically, I had them the best when I was, like, working out, you know, for gaining size. And it, but then again, I was that young. Yeah. And even if you had, like, the most crazy, rare muscle building genetics, you will not work out once and then wake up the next day and be like, oh, no. Not only that, like, quickly a three-month stint of becoming, you know, cycle-rowing swimming guy will take care of that real fast, you know what I'm saying? Like, it's not like muscle is so easy to keep either. It's hard as shit to get build. And it's not, I mean, I know we talk about the studies of how much, how little volume you need to maintain it, but that's after years of building. I worked, I would love your guys' stories on this, too. I worked at gyms for a long, I mean, since I was 18. So I've been working in gyms forever, ever, ever. And there's already a bias. People who work in gyms are often, they're somewhat of a genetic component. Maybe they were athletes. They've been working out for a long time. Gym people that go to gyms are consistent working out. In my entire life working in gyms, I can honestly say I have really worked with maybe two people that fall into that category where you're just like, wow, that dude has got some insane. And I had one guy who I've talked about him before. He was a porter. So he cleaned the bathrooms and cleaned the gym. And he ate a McDonald's bacon egg and cheese biscuit for breakfast. He'd have a pop tart for lunch. He'd have like a top ramen for like, he barely ate anything. He was like Jerry, dude. He'd go do skull crushers with 225. Jack still. Yeah, didn't matter. Like I remember him. And then there was, God, did you guys know Bobby? He was a Persian dude, top sales guy. Yeah, yeah. You ever seen that guy? Jason's buddy. You ever seen him like, just squawking? I've never seen him lift. No. I mean, now he was, you could tell, you look at him and you look, you're like, man, he could be a straight man. I train this guy. I wish I remember his name. He was like 55, 57 years old, the older black guy, probably six, three, six, two, somewhere on that range, probably two, 50, a show like that. This dude was and like never lifted weights. And I'll never forget like the first day we lifted together and I had to put like 315 on the bar. No. Yes. He was your client? Yes. And I remember doing the row with him and he was so like, he was just natural. Yeah, he's all your strength. Bro, they try and get him to retract. I had to stick my knee in his back and take everything I had to like pull his shoulder blades back because he was just like, he's so jacked, dude. I mean, it was a first time training on that. And I remember like, I mean, you take a client, even a male big client who hasn't lifted weights and I go do a bench press, I'm not even starting with 45s. I'm probably putting like 25s on there. And I remember that. I remember like starting off to okay, 45s, okay, 225, okay. Jesus Christ. Yeah, dude. More, more. Just freakish. That's so wild. Freakishly strong. You guys worked at Santa Teresa. There was a Simone dude that used to come in, older guy. You ever seen that guy work out? He'd throw like five plates on the bar and just grab a house. Well, when we worked at Santa Teresa, that was when Isaac Sopilaga used to work out there. So he's the guy that I used to see. He used to play for the night. He used to play for the night. I got great stories about him and his wife. So he came in one time. This is before I knew who he was. It must have been him then, Simone dude. Yes. Yeah, dude. He picked up, I'll never forget this. We both happened to do the same exercise. We're in the freeways. I don't know who he is yet at this time. I just know he's this big Simone dude and I'm doing dumbbell skull crushers. And I'm pretty strong at this time. So I'm doing like 40 pound dumbbell skull crushers. He walks over and he grabs the 80s and he starts doing dumbbell skull crushers for reps, bro. Yeah. Just like a little baby. Yes, dude. I'm over here with the 40s. Yeah, just shaking it to moralize it. And feeling strong, you know, 40s. You don't know bad for dumbbell skull crushers. Grabs the 80s. He's like, let's do it, let's do it, let's do it. Yeah, bro. Just take him and like hand him to him and be like. So I trained his wife also. So I later on, I found out who he was. I've told stories before playing with the 49ers and the basketball court. So without super nice guy, I ended up training his wife. This is the first and only time I've ever been like so off on the scale with, especially with a woman like putting her weight on there. Like, so as a trainer, really young, you learn really quickly. You don't want to offend a client. So you always like start kind of like. Yeah, real love. If I look at someone, I'm pretty good. Yeah, I know you're 150. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's right. I can get within like five or 10 pounds of almost anybody. That's so funny. It's so true. Right, at least because you probably made a mistake at one point when you were young, when you were 20, you know what I'm saying? So never get. You don't want to go backwards. I go 300. No, you don't want to do that. That's not what you want to do. Put your foot on the scale. Right, right. So, and I'm, I think, you know, up into this point, I'm rarely ever off five or 10 pounds. So I normally will hit someone, but I'll start a little light and like, okay, I'm right where I'm at. So anyways, I get her. Now, Samoan girl, right? Flat stomach and she's like, I don't know, probably five, three, five, four-ish range or so. And I'm looking at her and I'm like, okay, she's pretty solid looking. So, you know, maybe she's, you know, she's only five, three, five, four. But she's lean. Right, and she, and she's got a flat stomach. She's lean. So maybe she's 135, 140. So I'm going to start at like 125. I go like 120. Like, bend. Good thing. Yeah, I go 10. Bend, like 140. Bend. One fit, like the thing's not moving. And I'm like, bro, she was 200 pounds. Whoa, what? All lean, lean, dude. Like literally like 13, 14, body fat. What are their kids look like? Oh, I know, dude. I mean, I haven't seen them in forever. They were really little when I was training her and he was coming around. Bro, genetics are weird, man. They're such a pride. Imagine like that's, the two had a baby, bro. Oh yeah. So I would love to see what the kids are now. I had an experience like that once when I, I did a little bit of Muay Thai just when I was trying to supplement Jiu-Jitsu, whatever. You didn't tell me that. Yeah, just a little bit. And like literally like months, was like maybe five months. Like in this living room. No, no, this was at, this was actually. Like Napoleon Dynamite. Rex Kondo. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I want you to kick me. Come on, kick me. Okay, you'll block it every time. That's for Starla. No, I used to kick a banana tree until it cracked in half. Yeah, I used to kick me. Show me a video, dude. All those banana trees in San Jose. I used to spar and we would dip our hands in glass just so we could hit each other. Rex Kondo. All right, Rex Kondo. I didn't realize you saw hardcore. Regular stuff, you know what I mean? Regular stuff. No, no, no. It was like five months and I would go like a couple of days a week. When I was this girl there, she was a pro kick boxer and she was probably, I don't know, 140 pounds. So like average size, but she's obviously a pro and she was teaching me how to kick really well, right? And we, you know, we were kicking the bag and then we were holding the, you know, the pad or whatever. There's a particular way that you hold a pad to practice leg kicks or whatever. So I held it and she kicked it real easy. She's kind of showing me the technique and then she goes, I'm gonna go a little hard. So she's like, bro. She's like, I'm gonna go a little hard. She said, is that okay? I said, yeah. I said, and I kind of laughed a little bit. I said, you're probably gonna hit a lot harder than I think, aren't you? And she goes, well, I mean, she goes, I have good technique. She goes, just get ready. So I'm gonna kind of show you what it feels like, bro. Does she knock you over? This 100, she knocked my feet out from under me. Good doosh! And I got, I'm like, wow. I had a similar experience with that. I said, you could kill me if you hit me in the face with that. It's so insane, like the kind of force you can generate with a kick versus a punch. You know, there's hard, there's people that can generate some serious like punching power, but it's like leg kick shit on that. It's, oh man. Did you guys see the Chandler Ferguson leg kick? Oh yeah. That just happened last UFC? Oh, is it a leg snap? Joe Rogan came in and said that was the nastiest leg kick. Oh, when he kicked him in the face? Oh, I saw that. Front kick right too. That was just a regular front kick too. That was a front kick, yeah. Oh yeah. Yeah, but he had like a full on like, it was. It was a nice snap and everything I saw that. Oh, it was a beautiful snap. Someone caught a picture of the foot connecting and his face was like. Well, because your face, you know, the momentum. The ripple of the, yeah, the force tree. You know what it reminds me of? You ever seen videos of people in those G machines or in a jet? Yeah, yeah, yeah. You ever see their faces like. They look like they're melting in the thing. Yeah. He was out cold for a hot minute. That's scary. You know when, yeah, it's scary when it goes, because obviously the initial reaction of the crowd is always crazy. Oh! Right, and then. Yeah, but then you're like, oh my God. And then they don't move for like a minute or two. And then like the whole arena goes silent and stuff like that. He was down for a while. I watched, there used to be the show on Discovery. We were talking about it the other day where they would, the sky would go and he would explore martial arts. Around the world, like, yeah, where they came from the origin of each one. Yeah, and then they would talk about that. Then they would talk about the physics of what's happening. I love that show. They'd compare a Taekwondo kick to a Muay Thai kick to a whatever kick. And then I think it was on that show where they talked about what happens to the brain when you get knocked out. And basically it's the two hemispheres twisting. Twisting, yeah. And then it's like a, it's like a reset. Right. Like it's the twisting action of the, I thought it was the kind of like the bouncing. That's when you get a concussion. That'll do it too. But the two hemispheres doing this. Yeah, it's the twist that really just lights out. Yeah. And then you just go to sleep. So of course, something like that, that cracks someone. It's like here where it'll twist it a bit more effectively because he went to sleep. Yeah, those Muay Thai guys, you ever seen, you ever watched, I talked about the banana tree, right? But that's not a joke. You ever seen those guys kick banana trees down? That's why I laughed because like I've seen those videos when I was like, just fuck around with Muay Thai for like, I think it was like two years on and off, but it was just like, I would just watch those videos be like, holy shit, these guys like conditioning their, well they call it like conditioning their shins. Yes. But it's like, I mean, little micro fractures, they're continuously like providing their shins. So my buddy who was the one that would teach me sometimes Muay Thai, he had a stick. And what you do is you lay, you put your leg out like this and you go up and down your shins. To get it to adapt. To get like, basically kill the feeling. You know how painful that is? Yeah, you kill like the nerve response to that. And then also like you build, I'm sure there's scar tissue like, you know, that goes with that. Yeah. And that same show, they showed how, I think they analyzed the shins of these Muay Thai fighters and found that. So you know when you break a bone, when it grows back at the break, it's stronger than before. So when you look inside of a bone, it looks like, like you see some space in between it's not like a honeycomb, but basically there's... It's spongy. Yes, yeah, exactly. And what they said is there's lots of micro fractures from kicking hard things or whatever. And every time the micro fractures heal, it fills in those gaps. So they develop these dense, strong bones to be able to do what they do. It's like what we used to do with marijuana plants. Did they kick one down? No, no, no. You used to... That's easy. It's called low level stress training. And you take the stems of them and you just twist them when you hear them. And you're basically doing these little micro breaks to make it stronger too. Yeah, and then what happens is it strengthens and then it gets like a bigger... What's the word? Stock, thank you. Yeah, it gets a bigger stock, which then produces a bigger, stronger plant. Man, you really did get to that like super... Oh dude, I so did. Yeah, no, I was... I mean, when I was in it, just like we are with everything else. I mean, this is one of the things that we're all very... We have in common is like when we... Obsessive? Yeah, when we get obsessed about something, we go crazy, go deep into it. And once I started, like I just, I went down the rabbit hole of learning all that stuff. So... Wow, that's crazy. Yeah, interesting. Hey, I wanna give a friend of mine a shout out because do you guys have anybody in your... Well, I mean, I'm sure your spouses are like this, but someone who's not, you don't necessarily expect this from. Do you have anyone in your life you don't expect this from? Who's like, just very supportive from day one when you do something or... So I have a friend, her name is Angela. I met her through my cousin's wife and we've been friends for a long time. When I first created Maps, she was one of the first people to try and do it. When Mind Pump first came out, she would listen to every episode and comment on it. And I haven't talked to her in a long time. You know, we're friends and everything, but she know one of those friends you don't talk to in a while, but then when you see him, it's like, hey, how's it going? Yeah. Her husband's a great guy too. They have two kids, gorgeous. She just sent me a message. She's like, hey, I just saw your interview on impact theory. Man, just following you guys and your growth and whatever. So nice, you know? Yeah. Since day one, she's been so supportive and it's really, really cool, you know, to have people like that. You know what's funny about that is like, I found it's friends that I'm kind of loose friends with that are the most supportive. You know, it's not like my immediate friends or family. I wonder why that is. You think it's just like competitive, maybe? Well, yeah, it depends on how you build the relationship. I actually think this is like a, I don't think it's a secret, but it's like a hack to getting successful faster. You know, and I think a lot of people get stuck, right? They get stuck in these relationships that they built when they were much younger and had a lot more insecurities. And they don't realize these bonds that they built with people were for things that probably aren't helping you grow and holding you back and they're not very supportive. And you can get really stuck and held back and learning to prune those type of people out of your life and surround yourself with more people that are supportive and are happy for your success. And sad for your failures. Yes, right. Genuinely, not fake. Not the opposite. Yeah, not pretending like they are. Like you ever have a failure and you get that one friend that's like, well, you know, I told you, man. You're like, what the hell? I told you that was coming. Yeah. Yeah, but I do think that, I mean, I'm such a believer in that. You know, you're an average of your five friends that you spend the most time with. And you know, that was something that I started to piece together later in my 20s. And I really did watch my growth accelerate when I started to do that, when I started to get. And I also started to see, you know, the drama and stuff that would be around in my life in my 20s, like it started to disappear because those type of people also attract that. Totally. Those people that are negative or they don't, they're competitive with you or they don't want to see successful. They also attract a lot of bad energy like that. And if you have relationships with people, somehow you get sucked into it all the time. I noticed when I started to wean all those people out of my life, I no longer started to see that drama. And then I also started to see growth accelerate. And so, and it's hard. It's hard when you're, you know, 20 something years old and you made, you know, these like high school or college friends. Well, it's because you feel like you're betraying your old connection to them, but you're not. You still value that. Sure. You know, so I get it. I have friends like that where you just don't talk to them anymore, but that doesn't mean you don't value what you had before. And it make you feel like you're not loyal is what ends. That's what I'll struggle with. Am I not being loyal to my friend because we're so different now. We don't hang out and should I, but a hundred percent you got to prune them off. Yeah. Totally. Did you guys see what Netflix sent their employees? No. Bro, the market is, I mean, look, these are companies at the end of the day. So market speaks, policies change. So Netflix sends out a memo to the employees and basically says, Hey, here's a deal. We put a variety of content on our platform and we leave it up to the consumer to decide what is good or not. And if this makes you uncomfortable, then maybe Netflix isn't the place for you. Wow. Netflix. Said that to their employees. They did. Interesting. Any shift in leadership? Because they were the ones that kind of, they were starting to flex the whole Dave Chappelle thing, right? Well, they stood their ground with Chappelle, but you're right, there was some pressure. But I think this is cause they're getting hit and they're getting hit in the market. And I think they're like, okay, everybody, like we can't, we gotta like just let our customer decide. Yeah, I saw that. I wasn't aware of like some of the flicks I think that people thought were super woke or whatever. Like, cause I know that a lot of their subscriptions dropped pretty substantially, just like Disney, right? Yeah. Well, no, Disney is on the rise, bro. They're on the rise? No, really? Yeah, Disney just broke another record this last quarter. No way. Look up Disney on the rise subscribers. Disney Hulu ESPN, which are all underneath the Disney umbrella are all, yeah, they hope to surpass. So they're at like one, I wanna say 150 and Netflix is at 222 somewhere on there. So they're gaining on Netflix. And obviously Netflix charges a higher premium than Disney does, but Disney's waiting. They're waiting to build their content in their library up and then they'll get to a place where they'll start to charge a little bit more. What's it at? Walt Disney Company reported that 137 million subscribers worldwide, second quarter, this marks a growth in service subscribers base. Oh, good. More than 100 million since the start of fiscal year 2020. Okay. Yeah, so they're growing now. So here's what the Netflix thing said. It says, as employees, we support the principle that Netflix offers a diversity of stories, even if we find some titles counter to our own personal values. Depending on your role, you may need to work on titles you perceive to be harmful. If you find it hard to support our content breadth, Netflix may not be the best place for you. So in other words, do your job. Yeah, or leave. Let's stick to just working and leave the politics off. Speaking of work, did you guys see what BCI, NCI is putting out for coaches and trainers? I think this is absolutely brilliant. The free business coaching assessment, right? Free business coaching assessment. So if you're a coach or a trainer, you can go to NCI. And I think what's the website? It's ncivip.com. Yeah, that's what it is, ncivip.com. You go there and they will literally analyze your business, break it down and show you how you can stand out from your competitors, how you can get clients that are more suited for what you like to do, who will also pay more so your value goes up, increase member retention, how to scale your business. So a lot of coaches run into a problem when they build their coaching business. They reach a limit by their time. They're like, how do I grow this? Because now I'm stuck with the amount of hours I work or whatever. Well, just getting like another set of eyes on your business, so valuable. To see things, because you just get in that day-to-day process of trying to manage your own way of doing things in your systems and whatnot, but to get somebody else to come in and tell you where you could maybe improve or what they see is so valuable. Doug, the way it works is that you go to that website, you fill out basically an assessment form. So a bunch of questions related probably to your business. And then they actually call you, is that right? Yeah, you send them an appointment, they call you and they do the analysis. Wow, that's all free. Yeah, free for my listeners. All right, awesome. Hey, real quick, you gotta check out one of our partners, Ned. They have a de-stress blend that uses cannabinoids from hemp plants and other botanicals to help you with anxiety and stress. This really works well. You take it about 30 to 60 minutes later, you can feel your body physically relaxed. Go check them out, go to mindpumppartners.com, click on Ned, use the code MINEPOMP for 15% off. All right, here comes the rest of the show. Our first caller is Joshua from Colorado. Joshua, what's happening, man? How can we help you? I'm doing pretty good, I'm doing pretty good. I'm from New York. Yeah, I know. Long state. So I'm an office trainer, personal trainer. I've been a trainer for about three to four months. And I'm looking to be able to recomp my body for myself, for my client as well, because there's a certain, I need to look the part, right? I'm a trainer and I'm also doing it for my health, right? For my overall health, because I've gotten a couple of blood tests done over the course of eight months. And on my first blood test, I realized that I was pretty diabetic and I had a slew of other problems. So coming from being 265 pounds since the end of 2020, right now I've dropped down to 227 and I'm looking to be able to be at a healthy 180, 190 pounds or so, right? Cause I've never been there before. Now, what drives me to ask is, I've been really conflicted because something that Adam likes to bring up. And also you guys agree as well. And it's basically don't kill yourself doing cardio, right? And I can understand that past a certain point, but I've always thought that incorporating about 120 to 150 minutes of cardio, steady state cardio a week was a good thing for weight loss. But now you guys are basically saying, no, you should send the proper signal to your muscles to eat more, to build more and to have your metabolism higher because that's what matters even more. So I'm still not entirely versed in my, and I'm not entirely unacknowledgable with metabolism and whatnot like that. So I'm educating myself even with the free things that you have online as well. But that leads me to ask, well, what's the point of doing cardio at all, right? Especially when it comes to losing weight, either for myself or for my clients. And is there even a role in cardio when it comes to bustle building programs or anything like that? Yeah, there's two things here. I'll address a couple of things here. Yeah, I'm gonna clarify here. So 120 minutes, 150 minutes of cardio a week is good for your health. It's good for your health. Here's the problem. When people rely on cardio for weight loss, that's when you run into issues. It's much easier to either cut your calories if that's what you wanna do and you wanna get there quick. But I recommend, and we recommend, to get your metabolism to move in a positive direction. In this case, it would be faster because that's what's gonna stick with you all day, every single day. So really what you wanna do is, you're fine doing 120 minutes of cardio every week so long as it's not the main signal you're sending your body. So long as that's not your number one way of losing body fat. Your strength training should be the foundation of your routine because that's what's gonna stop or slow down or reverse the metabolism slow down that comes from cutting your calories. So that's all it is. Also keep in mind 120 minutes of cardio, you guys, in a week's time, you're talking about maybe 400 to 500 calories. It's not not much. You're talking about, okay, you could also shave, okay, Joshua, 80 calories a day. You shave 80 calories a day in your food. And so I would always rather go that direction first before I start adding cardio into my client's life. Just from a fat loss perspective. Yeah, from a fat loss perspective. We're not talking about health right now. We're talking about somebody who has a strategy of trying to get down to a weight they either never been down to or a weight they would really like to get down to. And I use cardio every show. But it's the very last week. I mean, it's talking, I wait until I'm down to 6% body fat and it's what gets me down to 3% body fat. So it's not that cardio is a terrible strategy. It's just used terribly by most people. Doing cardio when you're 40, 50 pounds out from where you wanna be, terrible strategy. I would much rather build your metabolism, build muscle, add calories to your diet, get to a place where we can speed the metabolism up, then reverse go back the other way by slowly taking calories away from you, manipulating your training. So we're sending a new signal. So hopefully the body is trying to adapt. We're burning more calories. You're slowly losing weight. And then as we get closer to your goal, we can start to add cardio in the routine. The reason why I don't like to do it right from the get-go is because eventually your body will get adapted to that 120 minutes. And that 120 quickly becomes 240. And that 240 becomes 480. Then the next thing you're doing is an hour of cardio every single day. And then maybe you get your goal. But then guess what you have to do now, Josh? What to maintain that? Now you gotta do an hour of cardio every single day to maintain this physique that you worked your ass off over the last six months for. And the reality is 99.9% of the people don't. They eventually go back to what they were doing before they decided this goal and they don't do the cardio every single day for the rest of their lives. So that is why you hear us talk about that. Now, if you're somebody who loves to run and it's part of your life, like you get up every day and you love to go for a nice jog for 30 minutes. And I would never tell that client to stop doing that. I would love for that client to, if that's something they've been doing and it's part of their lifestyle, there's lots of health benefits to being somebody who gets out there and runs for 30 minutes every single day. But for somebody who has a specific goal, like I want to lose body fat, Adam, what is the best strategy to do it? I'm currently not doing any cardio right now. Cardio is not what I'm recommending right now. It's the last thing that I'm gonna recommend to you. I'm gonna tweak everything else nutritionally and program first before we even think about introducing cardio. It's gonna be a long ways from where you're currently at right now. And then maybe when we get really close to get you over that edge, but what I wanna be clear about is whatever you add into your routine to get you to that goal, if you wanna keep that goal, you're gonna have to maintain that. So the idea is that we are trying to do as little as possible to elicit the most amount of change so you can maintain for the rest of your life. Let me actually correct what you just said. That is not true for strength training. For strength training, what gets you there to maintain that is much less. With cardio, it's not the same. I met with cardio. Yes, whatever you do with cardio to get somewhere, you gotta do the same. You gotta keep doing that to maintain. When it comes to strength training, you do one fifth, one seventh the volume maintains what it took you to get there in the first place. So all we're doing, Joshua, is communicating the most effective efficient way to get where you wanna go. But also understand that there's health benefits that come from cardio that are independent of weight loss. So you could do 120 minutes a week of cardio, get no fat loss from it, still have health benefits. So there's nothing wrong with doing it. You get health benefits, people enjoy it. I mean, there's different factors to why people like, I think you can fit cardio in your programming, but in terms of like the overall general purposes of people trying to lose by fast, just not as great of a strategy, your real value is introducing people to this counter-intuitive idea that you need to build your body up and you're gonna create a body that's gonna work for itself. It's gonna create this automatic response to burn calories, to shave off of that body fat, if you build it right. Plus it has more longevity to this whole fitness experience. So in terms of being a trainer and providing value, there's way more value in introducing people to this method versus just throwing them on a treadmill and watching them do their routine. Yeah, Joshua, you've only been a trainer for a few months, right? Correct, yes. How long have you been listening to our show? Oh, it's been about almost six months. Okay, so I'm gonna help you out because I want you to be a good trainer. So one, keep listening to our show. So just keep doing that. Two, I'm gonna send you the program that I think coaches and trainers get the most value from, something that you can apply to every single client. I'm gonna send you Maps Prime. Maps Prime, every client you work with, they will benefit from the stuff that you'll learn from Maps Prime. So I'm gonna send that to you just because you're a trainer and I'm partial to trainers. I want them to do well, okay? I actually ended up getting Prime, Prime Pro and Prime Anywhere on May 1st. Oh, good deal. Right, like, yeah, it's really, really resourceful but it did bring me to ask another question is, well, like, would you recommend me trying to get the RGB bundle? I wanna be able to build better muscle. I wanna change and tweak my physique a lot more than what it is but I don't really know which way to go about it and I know you guys talk a lot about anabolic and doing anabolic performance and then I don't remember the last one. Joshua, are you trying to get a free RGB bundle? No, no, I'm being, you guys always talk about that and when I looked online, that's what you guys have. It is, it is, it is. Go anabolic, at least, yeah. Yeah, you know what, I'm gonna send you all three. You gotta be honest though, you're trying to get it for free, don't lie to me. No, I'm serious. I was doing my research, right? I mean, I've been watching you guys for some time and I mean, granted, I was watching from a line of skepticism but I really like what you guys talk about. Thank you. We'll make you a true believer if you go through. Yeah, you're only six months deep in, brother. You gotta, there's a lot more to listen to. Listen, I'm gonna send you all three but I want you to promise me that you are going to do your best and you're gonna stick to being a trainer for at least a year because the first year is the hardest, okay? Yeah. Okay, good, because we need good trainers. So I'm gonna send you the RGB bundle, stick to it for at least a year before you decide whether or not this is for you. It's a tough job, it's hard but you get past that first year it starts to get a lot better, okay? I'm trying. All right, sure. All right, thanks, brother. Thanks for calling in. No problem. Thank you. Boy, I'm like, Gotta love those skeptics. I'm so easy, right? Yeah, so I was looking at the RGB bundle. All right, I'll send that over to you. You know, it's this whole debate around cardio. Look, I'm gonna say it straight up. When it comes to just that loss and you have cutting calories, strength training and cardio at the bottom is cardio. Cardio is not an effective long-term fat loss approach. It is not. Short-term, you'll get some results. Long-term, it's terrible. We've talked about this many times but there's health benefits from it. So we're not anti-cardio. No. We're anti-using it for the wrong reasons. And the people it stirs up the most is the guy or the girl who gets up every day and they run for a half hour every hour to start their day and they've been doing it for five to 10 years. I'm not talking to you. Yeah. I'm not talking to you. Keep doing that. If you love to run and it's this beautiful escape for you or somewhat of a meditation, I am all for that. That's awesome. I am talking to someone just like this. I'm used to being 260 pounds. I worked my ass off to get down to 227 and now I'm trying to go from 227 down to 180 which is 40 pounds still. I wanna lose 40 pounds and I'm wanting to get on the treadmill right now. Terrible fucking idea. Especially if you're not already someone who loves doing that. If he came in and he says, you guys, I've been running my whole life every day. I just love it. I love it. I wouldn't say stop it. But his goal is I wanna lose body fat. I wanna get down to a certain weight and it's a significant amount. It's not five pounds. It's 40 pounds. And if you wanna lose 40 pounds, you don't love doing cardio. You weren't doing anyways. Starting right now doing that is a terrible fucking strategy. That's unsustainable even once you get there. And I'll argue with anybody on that all day long. Our next caller is Laura from Florida. Hi, Laura. How can we help you? Hi. I had a question about prepping for my first bikini competition and really knowing like, is my bodybuilding coach a good one or a bad one? I guess. There we go. My boyfriend is a personal trainer. He actually used to be my personal trainer. And then I got a bodybuilding coach and I decided that I wanted to start competing. And he has a lot of conflicting ideas on if her programming is the best for my body, if it will hurt my metabolism in the long run. And he's really concerned with like the food group she's cutting out. She doesn't want me having any dairy or any gluten. And the cardio is fairly high. I mean, I don't know what's high for bodybuilding. It's my first competition. I'm not a trainer. And so I listened to the podcast and I listened to my boyfriend and that's really all I know. So from my question, my cardio has been updated since then, I believe. But I do sprints twice a week with 20 minutes steady state cardio afterwards. And then three times a week, I have 30 minutes of steady state cardio. And I'm training six days a week now with really high volume. How far out are you? I'll be 12 weeks on Wednesday. And you're already doing that. Wow. Does it coach or your boyfriend listen to Mind Pump? I don't believe so. I've tried to get my boyfriend to listen, but he's just on a podcast guy in general. What are your calories at? Right now, I can pull it up right now. Cool. Also, do you have intolerances to dairy and gluten or was that just a suggestion? It was a suggestion. I don't have any intolerances to any food, actually. When I started listening to you guys and actually eating and training well, any intolerances, like I thought I had, totally went away, which was great. It's a bodybuilding coach myth. Yeah, I know. So yeah, tell me your calories. And then I'd like to know what your boyfriend is opposed to that your coach is having to do. Well, he said she said cutting out the food groups. The cutting out the food. Is there more? Is he opposed to the training as well? He thinks that my cardio should be less and really be ramped up closer to the competition. Yeah, he sounds like he's smarter than a coach. Hold on, Laura. I want to hear your calories first and then I'll give you mine. I'll just give you a heads up. Your calories better be over 2,500. Are they over 2,500? Because if they're not... No, not at all. Okay, I'm going to tell you something. Way too high. Listen, I'm going to tell you something that is every woman's worst nightmare. Are you ready? Yeah. Your boyfriend's right. So yeah, he's actually right. Your ex-boyfriend. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Your calories are too... Maybe he listens to mind pumping. He just doesn't admit it. Well, he will now. Yeah, right. He's going to come home and get lectured. These guys said that you were right. Let me listen to that show. No, um... Where are the calories though? I know we said they weren't over 25, but where are they? So I can... They're at 1,600 right now. Yeah, you're... 12 weeks out, 1,600 calories. We're already doing cardio every day. Oh, wow. Yeah. So here's... This is just the MO with a lot of these coaches. Is they take somebody who's got... Who's built some muscle. You've probably already built some muscle. You've probably done a good job on your own. And then they're like, oh, cool. 12 weeks out. Here's what we're going to do. I'm going to make you just move like crazy. I'm going to cut the hell out of your calories. Cut calories run a lot. There's no science, no real strategy. It's just I'm going to starve you and I'm going to beat you up. And then people are like, why is my hormones and metabolism so messed up? Why do I feel like crap? What's going on with my body? So you're... Like I said, your calories are too low for all of them. You're heading right around week eight. Your coach is going to be looking at you because you've stalled. And then the next thing is the... And they're going to cut your calories even more and or increase cardio even more. That's what's heading. That's what's coming for you. And in the next four weeks, you are going to, which by week eight or sooner... They'll bring her down to 1200, probably double her cardio. You're going to cut your calories more and increase just a terrible, terrible direction. Can I ask you why you want to do a bikini competition? Like what is your motivation around that? I've never really wanted to do bikini. I really want to compete in figure because my upper body just builds like crazy and I like how it looks. I enjoy lifting really heavy weights and having a strong back and shoulders. But I've always enjoyed bodybuilding and really respected like the mental discipline that goes into it. And I come from a very traditional family where women are always small and petite and it's always like women are small and men are big. And that always frustrated me. Like growing up, always having comments about my weight thrown around. And I was like, you know, I just want to be strong and healthy. So that's what I'm going to do. And I love bodybuilding and I want to get on stage. I want to experience that discipline because I am very disciplined and I'm extremely competitive. Well, good, good, but bad. So your attitude is what's going to make this very damaging for you. So be very careful. You are disciplined. You probably can tough your way out and just eat nothing and just work out all the time because you're so disciplined. Don't do that. Okay, don't do that because it's not worth it. So let's get you in the forum. Yeah. I have several clients that I've coached for bikini shows that are actually in there. So, and you have other competitors that have coached themselves. So we're going to put you in our private forum so you can, I'm going to bet with your experience and with your boyfriend combined the two of you. I think you guys could probably put together a good run at a show. Yeah. And it's a bikini. Yeah. Not saying it's easy, but of all the competitive competition, you know, all the competitions on stage, it's bikinis a lot easier than the video. Well, the fact is the main work that's going to make you win or lose the show is as far as the way you've sculpted your physique. That's done. Here, this is your, this week now is revealing the work that you've done the previous six months, year, two years, three years. So right now we're at the revealing phase. Now where this bikini coach is so off is that she's going to, you're going to end up losing so much of that hard work that you did. You did all this great work to build a good, a good base of muscle. And by cutting your calories that low and doing cardio, it's inevitable you're going to lose muscle. Your muscle is going to get paired. You're sending a signal to get your body adapted to 1600 calories or less while also running on a treadmill. 12 weeks out. Yeah. 12 weeks out. So you're, yeah, you're going to lose, you're going to lose weight. You're going to lose some body fat, but along the way, you're going to lose a lot of that muscle you worked your ass off to build. And that's not what we want to do right now. We want to, we want to ease your way into this show. And where you're at right now, I wouldn't even want to be there until like the final weeks. Like in a, in a good setting. Yeah. The very bottom of our, our cut is around 1600 calories. And we're doing that kind of cardio. And that's very, very possible when you, when you set yourself upright in the off season and then you do a proper cut going in there. And so get in the forum. We're going to give you free access to that. Thank you. Yeah. We're all there. So you can tag us if you have questions, introduce yourself, let everybody know what you're kind of, what you're going through, what you're doing. And you'll start to see several other bikini competitors pop up and start shit. Cause they've got all very similar stories. Everyone's, a lot of people in there have been through something very similar. Laura, do you know what body fat percentage you're at now? I do not. I was going to do that test next week. I go to a gym locally that my boyfriend manages and he was going to scan me next week to see where I was at. Okay. Yeah. I was just wondering because I mean, bikini you're probably what, trying to hit 12, 13% at the leanest Adam. Yeah. But that's very vague because it depends on how they look. It has everything to do with how you look. So I would never go off just pure body fat percentage. Although that would give us an idea of where you're at. And I do think that's a very smart strategy because even, even with all of my experience coaching bikini athletes and getting ready for a show, I always do that at the beginning. So I know, you know, maybe I cut too much or maybe I'm not cutting enough and having a body fat percentage to refer back to, that's really what I care more about than the end, like, oh, you should be down to 9% or 12% because I've told you guys before, Katrina walks around all the time at 12 and that would be considered super low for most people. So, you know, it really depends on how your body holds body fat. It's a subjective sport. So I'll hush you. Well, Laura, I'm happy you called 12 weeks out. I'm glad we weren't talking to you four weeks out, you know, cause a lot of damage could have been done in that period of time. So I guess just to getting your response because I kind of knew what you guys were gonna say and I was pretty sure my boyfriend was right because he's been training for over five years at this point. So he definitely knows his stuff, but what should I do, I guess, at this point? So you're still here, so... Going forward, should I go forward with the show? Do you think I should pull out Get in the forum and let me, I want to see what you look like or give me your handle so I can kind of look at what you look like cause honestly, this is a subjective sport, right? So I have to see where you're at. If I think you're already pretty lean, we might even have time to reverse for a couple of weeks and then go back to a more sustainable type of cut cause you might be, but if you still have a long ways to go body fat percentage, it may be a good idea to scratch this show, go back to like reversing out, getting your calories up. How much do you weigh right now? Right now I'm at between 126 and 128. Okay, yeah, we could literally get you up over 2,500 or 2,600 calories, kind of maintaining. Yeah, that's a very real, for your size, it's not unrealistic to be able to get up to that. So for me, so when I coached all bikini athletes, this was a rule of mind, like we did not schedule a show until I thought their metabolism was ready for a show. And so that was the deal, like they would all call me the same way, they'd be like, Adam, me and my girlfriend, we wanna do show in November, will you coach us? I said, that's not how I do it. You can hire me, but then what we're gonna do is we're gonna work as if we're in off season right now. I wanna see where your metabolism's at, I wanna see how your body's responding to the weights, I wanna see how your training, what your symmetry looks like, all those things, I wanna assess all that. And then I wanna get you to a place where I feel like you are eating a good enough calories that when we decide to go in our eight to 12 week cut, that when you end and it's show time, you're still in a healthy place. You still are in a place where you're not losing your period, you're eating a good amount of calories, that you're not starving the body, we're not on the treadmill every single day for an hour, something like that, even that amount of cardio, like even if I had to do that, it doesn't happen until the last couple of weeks at most. I definitely am not doing that this far out. And if I feel, if I as a coach, I thought I needed to do that 12 weeks out, then I don't think you're ready for the show because I didn't do my job of building your metabolism up. So let's see where you're at, get in the forum, either take pictures and throw them up there for me or give me your handle so I can take a look at where you're at. And then from there, we should decide whether we scratch this show, focus on building some more and then go back. Yeah. Okay, great. Thank you. That's very helpful. Thank you, Lauren. Thanks for coming. Thanks. You know, this is one of those rare, really rare situations where the boyfriend was right. So I'm glad, I'm glad we could give him a win. No, I'll joking aside. I think he was right a lot, you know, just didn't get it acknowledged. Here you go. I'll joking aside, nine out of 10 times when somebody calls in and they have a bodybuilding or like show coach, the advice is terrible. So far, I mean, I can't actually be honest, it might actually be 10 out of 10. I can't think about it. It's 10 out of 10, but there's a little bit of a bias there, right? They're calling in because they are, they kind of, they sum off. Yeah, they kind of are, I want to confirm it. When your experience, Adam, of all the coaches you knew when you were doing this, was it, what was it? What would you say, like 80% or just? Oh yeah, at least that. It's, I mean, I built a business that I didn't intend to build off of that. That was, I did not go like, I want to be a bikini. You just saw there was a need. Yeah, I saw there was a need. I started talking to all these competitors that I saw at the shows and I started hearing with it. And my first experience, by the way, even before I got into shows, I dated a girl that competed. So well before I competed, my girlfriend competed. And I knew nothing about show prep or any of that stuff. And so I was like this boyfriend right here. And it's actually funny, because it was about five to seven years into my career, I'm dating this girl who decides that she wants to do bikini. And he's running her on like 1300 calories. And I remember telling her like, That doesn't seem right. Yeah, I don't think you should. And he's, she's like, no, he's telling me I have to do this and or, and here's the thing that you got to watch out for. Like she was, she was extremely disciplined. She did it and she placed, she did well. But boy, was she have a hard time maintaining that. I mean- And it just didn't confirm and because she played, she's like, well, I guess it was right. That's right. So that's what I meant by be careful because I know there's people that are listening that may have done a show and been able to have a coach, coach put them through this crazy ass diet and routine and they made it. Like it doesn't mean like, it doesn't mean everybody gets fucked up the first time they do this, right? Just because coaches do this stupid shit, our bodies are resilient as hell. And if you're- It's when they do three, four, five. That's right. And if you're a pretty healthy person, you can get away with 12 weeks of fucking death, you know? And actually come out the end and maybe even place and actually been okay. But then you start to think that that's what it's supposed to look like. And that's where the real danger comes in is that like, because like I said, if you, if you have a really, really healthy metabolism and you're a healthy person in general, and you do some of these extreme things for a short period of time, a lot of people will be okay. They'll come out of it, not be all. The damage we see that's common is because it's been show after show after show. And so that's the trap. So if you're listening right now and you hear where this girl is at right now and I'm glad you brought that up that you talked about her, she's got the discipline probably to stick it out. And she probably would stick it out and probably get to stage and see probably one of the best bodies she's ever built of herself or whatever. But the danger is now she thinks that's how you do that. And then- And there's a better way. And by the way, every show gets harder. I don't care how good you do. The body gets more adapts. It slows down the metabolism. And so you just keep having to ramp that extreme up and it attracts the people that have these radical disciplines to just, I can do this. And they normally have some crazy thing underneath that's driving them. My parents used to tell me I can't or I shouldn't or whatever like that. Or I was this or I was that. The massive chip on the shoulder. That's right. And it's like they've got that and they're battling that every day. And they're badass. They've got the discipline to do it but they have no idea what they're doing and they're setting themselves up for long term. Our next caller is Allison from Colorado. Allison, how's it going? How can we help you? Doing well. How are you guys today? Excellent. We're doing pretty good. Thank Justin just really- I feel very relieved right now. Yeah. Thanks for asking. All right. So guys, I first have to tell you that I am so grateful to have found you guys. Thank you. And you'll understand why when I give you a little bit of background, I have a few questions that definitely have to fill in some pieces beforehand. So the very first time I heard your podcast was I want to say a month and a half ago when the first podcast where you introduced map symmetry. And it's the missing piece to my puzzle that I've been waiting for for so long. And it just fills me with so much gratitude and joy because it's been a struggle bus for a while. I was always an athlete growing up, soccer volleyball. So I wrote a book and I'm basically gonna summarize my book to give you guys the foundation to help answer my questions. And my book talks about like drugs, alcohol, addiction. I stopped being an athlete. And when I started being an athlete in my early, so when I continued to be an athlete again, it was in my late teens and early 20s. And I became a runner and I lost weight and I stopped drinking drugs, doing all that. And I got into running and it was very healthy when I first started and it was fine and it was great. And then I live out here in Colorado, started mountain climbing, got into that. And it was really, it was at a healthy place. And then I have this addictive personality and started really getting into my mountain climbing and my ultra running. And I eventually have a mountain climbing accident where I fall 10 years ago and I break my femur. And it's the accident, I should have died. I shouldn't have made it through it, but I did and that was super awesome. And I break my femur, I get physical therapy, I get a titanium plate with a bunch of screws in my leg and five months after breaking my femur, I'm running a 50 mile or six months after breaking my femur, I'm running my first 100 mile race and I do PT enough to get to where I'm doing what I love. And so for the past decade, things were fine. I ran 2100 mile races and I was pretty good. I've been pretty good. I'm winning a bunch of these. I set a lot of mountain climbing records in Colorado and have climbed thousands of mountains. And, but I tuned out from my body and I didn't really know what good or bad pain was anymore, especially after having such a hardcore accident. So I didn't understand, I just thought like how my left hip was like, didn't work the same anymore. I just thought that was kind of what my life trajectory was gonna be because of my accident. And I never continued getting physical therapy or doing any of that. And then about, it started about two years ago when things just started falling apart, started with plantar fasciitis and then it went into back spasms and leg spasms and go into this physical therapist, that physical therapist doing more modalities, acupuncture, roughing, gua sha, just cryo spa. I've done PRP and so many things and MRIs and nothing like when I broke my femur, I broke my femur, I knew how to rehab from it. But this I didn't know what was wrong or how to fix it. And I can honestly say the two past two years have been such a struggle for us but I wouldn't change them for anything because it's led me to be one of the best people, not just athletes that I've ever been in my life and how to be mindful about things. And I finally found the right PT and we've been doing just great stuff and building my body back. And basically my body fell apart because for 10 years I was imbalanced and I was compensating and my right leg's done all this work and it's worked for a long time until it didn't work anymore. And my body just was like, I'm done. I need you to get me rebalanced but I totally didn't understand this and I've had so many strength coaches that just didn't put the right programming together or had no idea. And then you guys do, I hear the, like I'm finally at this place where I got back to running, I had to take a year off from all the crazy stuff. And then once I got back, it's way more mindful and I'm doing so much less running and I'm doing way more mobility and more strength. And I'm setting PRs in the hundred and the 50K in the 50-mileer and I'm running way less. And it's been incredible but I still have some stuff and I'm just, I've been at this plateau and then I hear your podcast, Map Cemetery. And I am on phase two, week two. And it's like, it brings me so much joy doing it because there's no better programming for, I mean, there's so many people out there that I'm sure have had injuries and broken things and can relate to exactly what I'm saying. And so I feel so blessed and that's kind of the background where I'm at with, yeah, where I am. And I wanna ask you guys a few questions. The first one being as an ultra endurance athlete and kind of my story you just heard, what kind of recommendations for programs to use after cemetery and during my buildups for like a hundred mile race, would you have me do after I complete cemetery for the first time or would you have me do cemetery like do it again? I'm gonna run it again. I'm gonna give you two answers, Allison. So either one's okay, one's better than the other, okay? So you, before you started your endurance sports you had some addiction issues with alcohol and drugs, correct? Totally. Okay, have you ever heard somebody say that they, have you ever heard the saying that you can turn anything into a drug? Yes. Yeah, so endurance sports is your drug. Absolutely. So one answer I'm gonna give you is to not do those sports for a long time. You're gonna have to go, it's like an alcoholic saying, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm just gonna drink a couple beers every night instead of coming off completely and working through that. So that's one advice, one answer. Now that might not be the answer you wanna hear. It might not be possible for you. So here's the second answer. I think you should run map symmetry over and over and over again for at least a couple years because you're looking at 10 years of this intense type of training. You've created some serious imbalances. It's gonna take a year or two to undo some of that work. And what you're seeing now is just the beginning. I mean, you just started map symmetry. You're noticing a difference, you're feeling it now. Just wait to a year or two from now. So my second piece of advice is this. Do map symmetry over and over again for a year and then go back to your endurance sport. Now the first answer, the first one is I wouldn't go back to endurance sports for longer, I would wait much longer until you feel like you're free from that addiction because I've seen lots, look, I dealt with this myself. I still deal with it when it comes to exercise. It's like any drug, it's very hard to have a little bit. Right, it very slowly creeps up and turns back into a problem. So you're gonna have to break that for a while. But otherwise I would go a year. I would go a year map symmetry when you're done with it, start over again. When you're done with it, start over. I think you can run map symmetry maybe three times in a year and then go back to doing some endurance sports an easier way in and try to stay aware of your tendency to overdo it. Really try and stay aware of that because that'll creep up on you and then you'll run into similar problems that you're dealing with now. The only thing I would add to that, Allison, I know you haven't listened very long. So we have a webinar that I did for free. It's called Maps Prime Pro or Prime Pro? Prime Pro, I don't even know my own webinar. PrimeProWebinar.com, it's free. And it's like a 50 minute class that I take you through from like literally from head to toe. And it's all of our mobility work and it's specifically movements that are from our Prime Pro program. Go through that, I think that would be great for you. I think that would be something that you should try and incorporate at least once or twice a week into your routine. I think that'll help a lot with your pain and trying to balance your body out. And then I agree with Sal, I think symmetry is the place to stay for probably a while or maybe even indefinitely, at least until you decide to start to slowly reduce the, at one point in your life, I mean, if you don't know this already, you're gonna have to cut back on ultramarathon running. I mean, at one point in your life, your body is eventually going to tell you this is not the healthiest thing that we can be doing for it. And it's probably already starting to tell you that. And I think you know that. And don't confuse ultramarathons with running. You can run and stay healthy for the rest of your life. And ultramarathon is like, it's like competing in powerlifting or competing in bodybuilding. It's just an extreme athletic endeavor. And it's just, there's nothing wrong with it, but it's not ideal. It's not a healthy ideal long-term, that's all. And that's what I meant by that, right? So I absolutely think that if you have a love for running, you can keep that passion and you can do it in a very healthy way. I think ultramarathon running is the extreme version of that, which it's a sport at that point, right? It's not something healthy for your body. And that goes for any sport. And I know people that are athletes and they love their sport, they never like to hear me say that, but it's the truth. No sport where you do a repetitive movement for hours on hours on hours and years on years and years is healthy and good for the body. It's just not, we weren't intended to move like that. So we were though, intended to go for long treks. So walking and hiking and being outdoorsy and doing those things, I think that's an awesome endeavor for you to continue on. But if you know that you have these addictive behaviors where a little turns into a little more, turns into a lot, turns into excessive relatively quick, then I think that the self-awareness there is that I need to start working on that and peeling back. Map symmetry is the program for you. And my recommendation would be to start working away from the ultramarathons and to a more balanced approach. Yeah, totally have done what you're saying. I took a year off, which I'd never done in my life and the recommendations are totally on point. I mean, we're talking about doing 120 miles of running a week and now I do 50 miles a week and the extra time that I used to run, I bike or I do yoga or now map symmetry and it's improved my running like profoundly. Yeah, you're still doing a lot. 50 miles plus yoga plus map symmetry is still a lot. I know it's hard for you to do this. It's the right direction though. You're moving in the right direction. That's trending correctly. What kind of, what kind of- And your body is, by the way, it's telling you you're going the right direction. Like imagine if you went a little bit further that direction, you know? So it's telling you right now you're starting to treat me a little bit better, you're starting to head the right direction. Keep listening to that. Your body is telling you a lot. So if you, you know, the benefits that you see from that now, you can really maximize that. I think we're just trying to like read, sort of re-program that in your mind to get in that direction. Yeah, are you, what kind of yoga are you doing? Yoga app that I like to do after my runs, it's called like yoga on the go and it's about 15 minutes of just different programs that I do post run. Check out that webinar. That webinar could potentially replace it. That could replace stuff. And then have you ever done Yen yoga? I have not. I like Yen yoga for someone like you. It's very meditative. And then do you do any meditation? I, that's been the biggest game changer of my whole self. Wonderful. Yeah, that would really, that meditation and Yen yoga would be something else. You're heading the right direction, Allison. You know, I just want to just so you, so we don't come off like we're beating you up for what you're doing. I think you're, Totally. You're, you're, you're heading the right direction. And I'm proud of where you've already come. So you've already come a long ways. And, and I think you, you know what your body is telling you. It's responding to that. I think you could keep, I think you can come further. So keep heading this way. Try out that webinar, keep following symmetry and then stay in touch with us, huh? Yeah. Time for another question. Sure. Go for it. Okay. Can you guys tell me if you know anything about scar tissue and the most effective ways to break it up? Yeah. So we're not, that's not, I wouldn't say that's not our expertise. However, breaking up scar tissue is largely a myth. It's a very tough, fibrous tissue. What people often confuse for scar tissue is just tight muscles. So muscles can be tight. You can develop knots in muscles from the central nervous system telling certain areas or parts of the body to be tight. And pressing on those and working those out with pressure does work. But actual real scar tissue, the amount of pressure required to break up scar tissue would damage your body. Is it around your knees, hips, or ankles? That's the thing. It's protecting you. It's a protective response. So my scar tissue, I get hardcore massage therapy in it and I've actually saw it through ultrasound when I've gotten PRT, which is playlet-rich plasma injections into it. And so it's, imagine like this huge brick or stick of butter that's like right under my, it's where my hamstring is and it's made the muscles in that leg really messed up and for a while it was compressing on my SI joint and limiting a lot of the tendons and muscles that I could use. And so we've done some really good work with it but we still can see it through ultrasound just this massive lump of crap. And I'm not sure if there's anything else I can do. Well, I mean, and I'm sure you don't wanna hear us to continue to beat this drum but you got this probably from running these ultramarathons. And so you working on it with a therapist and then going right back out to 50 miles a week, it's a talk about an uphill battle. I mean, again, more signs your body is telling you that slow down and take care of me. But there's actual scar tissue and then there's tightness. So actual scar tissue, like breaking it up would be like you would have to, it would be the kind of pressure that could potentially break bones and damage the body. From what I understand. But again, that's not my expertise. So I, you know, but that's from what I understand. It was a point to take away where it came from and why it came here. And that continuing to do what you're doing. And that's you have identified that in an area in your body, I'm assuming. And the reason why I asked about the hips, knees, and ankles is those are the other areas where, you know, my runners have a lot of problem. And it's like, and then they're always trying to ask me like, you know, all these, like, you know, can I floss and what if I do this, this grafting? Can I do that? They're looking for all these techniques to put band-aids on. It's like, well, you know what would really fix it is a stopping running and focusing on mobility and strength training. Like that's what's- It's like you're banging your head against the wall and you're like, what's the best helmet? You know? Or medicine. Or medicine to take. And it's like, stop banging your head, you know? Okay, that makes sense. Last question. There is an area that I have that's really been the most chronic irritation and it's changing and it's getting better and one of the best things, but it's still there. And the dumpy squat, dump, I think I said that right. You got it? It has, oh man, that's just like that. When I started doing that, I was like, this is what it's been waiting for. I mean, it's like the isometric hold with the deep rotators have been just, it's been just huge. But I don't have that with phase two or phase three. Like, is that something that I can do just every day in the morning? Oh, that's your primer right there. Yeah, yeah, you can do that every day. Yes, definitely. Yeah, because it's not damaging. And by the way, it's activating. This is something that, you know, when you listen to us long enough, you will have heard us say this, like when we write our programs, you know, we encourage, it's part of the motivation behind when we originally started the podcast was to help people kind of modify it more, because nothing will ever surpass, you know, me coaching you one-on-one. Because if I'm coaching you one-on-one, we're having this dialogue every day and I can modify it and you can give me feedback. Oh my God, Adam, that dumpy squat, when I do it just unlocks everything and I feel so good, like even if I had potentially not planned to program that every week, it has now become a staple because of that feedback. So we definitely encourage clients as they go through the programs and they start to learn about their body that they start to include those things. And that's a classic example of where we would absolutely keep that as a primer for you every day. All right, Allison, well, thanks for calling in. We appreciate you listening to the show and calling in. Oh, good time. Oh, that's okay, just fine. Good deal. You know, I remember this maybe a year or two into my training career, at this point I was a fitness manager but I did train a couple clients and I remember I had this one client who was gonna quit smoking and she decided I'm gonna exercise every time I have a craving to smoke a cigarette. Well, anyway, it turned into an addiction with exercise. It became a problem. She started overtraining as a result and that was the first time I realized and I was a kid, I was only 18 when I was first trainer. I remember realizing she just moved from one addiction to another and we had this conversation about it and then she did work on that. So, and that's what she's experienced. Well, this is super common. Very common. This is super common. A lot of people do exactly that and why it's tough to see is because we connected to health. Yeah. You know, exercise and restricting of food. Addicted to running is better than addicted to crack. Yeah. I mean, and so it's really hard for them to see that. It's really even hard for a professional to tell them, hey, you're doing a bad job or you shouldn't be doing that. So this is really common. Really, really common that. I mean, most people that have the discipline to kind of go and get after it for that, there's normally something else going on and they almost have always traded some other addiction for that addiction. And you know, and kudos for going that route instead of crack or something fucking terrible, right? They could end up bleeding to death, but it still ends up beating up on the body and you know, everything that she's saying, like right, does this hold that whole, that long old question and like all the things, it's all pointing to the same thing. It's like fucking stop running. Well, she's been scaling down, right? Which is great that's been able to identify that and start seeing benefits. We're just like, we're trying to nudge her further and further to keep going in that direction, not, you know, experience that for that moment and then go right back to the thing that brought you there. And truth be told, we're doing this on a show. So we're being very, you know, blunt and I'm very, here's your answer. We only have so much time. But the truth is, if I was training her, this for me- Oh, this is a daily conversation for a year. And it would be slow, it would be a slow, because to tell someone who's addicted to exercise, stop doing it, you know, it's like, it ain't gonna happen. It's not always not gonna happen. You can even tell by the follow up questions. The follow up questions are still the same answer. Just the answer to this is still quit the fucking running or go the other direction, keep going the other direction because all these other things, you're still looking at trying to put Band-Aid down so you can get out there and run. I mean, so this is like, and I hope Allison listens to this part and maybe it really resonates and maybe she really starts to head this direction. But when someone is still at this place where they think they know, like, oh, I know I need to do this, but then they're still asking questions like that, like you, cause it's like the, just like you used the example of the alcoholic or the drug, it's obvious for everybody else. It's like, it's not, I'm not gonna drink, but it's cool. I'm gonna go hang out the bar with my friends every day, right? Like that's not a big deal. Yeah, they keep flirting with what they know is probably not. It's hard to break that final line, that final, and it's a long process. Yeah, and you're right, as a trainer. Oh, this would be a slow, I would identify it and be like, okay, this is what we're gonna work on and I'm gonna take it slow and easy. Little by little. Cause otherwise I'll scare her and she'll run the opposite direction. Right, right, little by little. Look, if you like our information, you will love mindpumpfree.com. We have all kinds of guides on there that can help you with almost any fitness goal and they're free, they're totally free. You can also find all of us on social media. Justin is on Instagram at Mind Pump Justin. Adam is on Instagram at Mind Pump Adam and you can only find me on Twitter at Mind Pump Sal.