 Okay. Welcome to the Tuesday, February the 22nd, 2022 meeting of the Montpelier Design Review Committee. I will let committee members and staff introduce themselves. Meredith Crandall, staff. Stephen Everett, member. Martha Smirsky, member. Liz Pritchett, member. I will let Meredith review the remote meeting procedures and process. Okay. So I'm going to share my screen here. This is the shared screen is more for anybody who's watching this streaming over Orca media. But Frank and Heather, this may help you as well, just navigating through the meeting. At least the things I'm going to say here. All right. So for those of you viewing this meeting via Orca media, you can participate in tonight's design review committee meeting via this zoom platform. You can log in using this link. You should be able to type it into your browser or you can call into the meeting using this phone number and this meeting ID. If anyone is having problems accessing the meeting, please email me. I'm monitoring my email throughout the meeting. And I will do my best to help you log into the meeting. For those attending via zoom, turning on your video is optional. Please try to keep your microphone on mute when you're not speaking. This helps reduce background noise. And if you're on zoom, please try and restrict the chat function for troubleshooting and logistics questions only anything substantive on the matters that come before the committee should really be presented verbally. If you do have something to say, you can raise your hand. And then this chair will call on you right now. The only people we have remote are committee members and applicants. But applicants can also always feel this feel free to stay on and see what else is going on and what else is on the agenda. In the event the public is unable to access this meeting and I would find that out via my email. It will need to be continued to a time and place certain because we have listed the zoom access as a way to access the meeting. I will now hand the meeting back over to the chair. At this time, do I hear a motion from a committee member for approval of the agenda? I move to approve the agenda. And I second it. This is Martha. All in favor of the agenda, speak your names. The agenda is approved. Unless anybody else has anything to add at this point, we can go to the first applicant or 55 Berry Street applicant city of my failure. Come up and have a seat and describe your application force. Hopefully this is great. Hi, everyone. My name is Cameron Niedermeyer. I'm the assistant city manager and I am here about the 55 Berry Street project. So what we're looking to do is add two sets of lockers behind the rec center at 55 Berry. So it would be at the backside of the building on the right. If you're looking at the building, it's sort of specifically sort of made with a little cut out in the back. If you look at the drawings I provided, you can see we're trying to put the lockers behind number one all thought out. You can't really see that from the street, but it is easily accessible to folks who may need locker storage. Specifically, we're looking for two lockers. I included dimensions of those. We're also planning on installing them in a way where they can't tip over. They would be safe for folks. We would also not damage the brick, but the plan for attaching them and anchoring them to the wall would be to anchor a pressure treated two by six to the building in the mortar with anchors and then attach the lockers to the wood. I think that's a pretty good overview of what I would like what we'd like to do. So, okay, on the screen, just let me know. Cameron, what who do you expect that we'll be using these lockers? This request has been sort of championed by our homelessness task force here. And we anticipate folks who do not have a regular place to store items such as sleeping bags, etc. We'll use these. Do they have key locks or combination locks? These ones can be made with both. We would anticipate. Well, we haven't quite figured out the implementation of this yet, but we anticipate them being combination locks. Okay. Do you imagine putting them on a concrete pad as well? Or are you just going to put them on? They come with feet, so we didn't think that was necessary. Okay. It may be worthwhile putting some, at least initially putting some pressure treated blocks of some kind under the legs only because depending on when they're installed, if the ground is wet, they're going to sag unless they're really anchored to the wood framing against the brick wall. Thank you. That's a good consideration. It may even be nicer to run two two by's and not touch the ground at all so that you're not relying on the ground to support them because I feel like that ground is going to come up and down and the lockers are going to sink into them. And it's just a good idea. Then they're not subject to any frost use. Yeah, just fully support them off the wall. Oh, don't have them on the ground at all. Just hang it basically on the building. Just leave them up in the air and anchor it to the building. Yeah. And then that way it doesn't matter what's on the ground or if it freezes or thaws or whatever. It's not affecting it at all. Yeah. I feel like I don't have the technical expertise to agree or not with that just because I don't know how these ones were designed. It's an option. We'll leave it as an option, but it's recommended just for stability of the lockers. That makes sense. So just so I'm going to share my screen on this for just a minute. Just because I don't know if make sure everybody noticed that that wall there is not flat. There's a bump out to it. Right. So they would need to probably put more wood higher to be able to do that. Right. If the lockers are this high, there would need to be more. If you're, I don't know if you're talking about anchoring it. I am down here. Whoever wrote the description about how they were anchoring seems to have some fairly reasonable knowledge about how to do it. And I would imagine that they were going to do it at the top and not at the bottom anyhow, which is to say that no matter what, they were going to have to pad out at the top to deal with. However, out of plum, that wall is in what I'm we're not out of plum, but stepped back. Okay. And all I'm suggesting is adding a second one lower down. Got it. Which wouldn't I guess would possibly increase that how much it's padded off at the top by an inch and a half, which would be the thickness of the one on the bottom. But I think that it would make for a more stable and more secure and over the long term, a more reasonable installation of those things and having them sit on the ground and then get pushed around by the ground. Thank you, Ben. And again, the the framing on the wall could be either placed horizontally or vertically. If you've got a looks like the concrete basis stepped out. So if you've mounted something on top of that, and then anchored it into mortar joints, which are vertically aligned, then you could attach the lockers to that as well. And again, that's that's up to whoever's doing the installation. I mean, I wonder if, you know, they could consider a concrete pad there too. Instead, or in addition, it's just going to get muddy, I think, with people coming and going and and unless there's gravel, maybe, you know, sufficient gravel. I wouldn't answer if it's sufficient, but I do know that that is gravel back there. Oh, OK. Let's see. And again, that's more for convenience and cleanliness of the area if it's not a mud hole when they're trying to go back there in April. That makes sense. I will say, I think it's, I hadn't seen that before, and it does seem like a nice effort towards doing something that's helpful and useful. And it seems like a nice area to do that in for it's like central location and all that. Any other ideas that might be supported in that general direction? I think it's great. Thank you. Does anyone else on the committee have anything to add? Any comments, questions, suggestions of any kind? If not, I just have one more comment. About the security of the site. I mean, I guess the blockers must be pretty durable and heavy duty, but it looks a little out of the way to me as though it might not be the safest place to put them as far as vandalism goes, but maybe wrong. I think that is a fair question and a fair comment. We have been working as a leadership team to come up with this plan. So our police chief has had a chance to look at this plan and we are still working out the implementation, but there has been time for the police department to weigh in and that isn't a concern enough to prevent us from doing this or wanting to do this. This is a huge need that's been identified by the community that it would serve and hoping to just add a little dignity to that space. So I think it's a fair question. I know these lockers are for elementary schools and middle schools is where we're getting them from as a school supply. So they're definitely hardy. I think it's one of those we'll try it and see, honestly. Thank you. And this is something that placement of these lockers has been brought up several, several times with the planning department as to trying to find a location. And a lot of the locations that different members of the community would prefer don't work because they're in the floodplain. So we've had to nix a lot of them because of that concern. That's not an issue here. And we also in our review, we also think about, you know, visibility. The nice thing about this is it is trying to move that side specifically, but I think you can see it from Stonecutter's way. Because that's right where that the path connects through. So even though it's behind the building, you can actually see it from a street if the police actually needed to try and check on that space on a regular basis for anybody else. One other question is there any lighting for after dark, which happens pretty early in the end of December. That is a good question. I that is a issue that plagues this whole city. I know that there is lighting on Stonecutter's way, but beyond that, I don't think so. I have to check the back of the rec center. Yeah, I'm trying to remember if there is, it might be on the other side where the loading door for the bike path goes through. Yeah. An inexpensive option might be some solar power motion detector lights. They work really well. They're very inexpensive. And again, they could be mounted with one screw and water joint, depending on the light. That's in a location that gets a lot of sunlight during the day, so they would recharge and then they would come on when they detected any motion. So several of those placed on the side and around that corner would be fine. They're fairly smaller about the size. And they're black. Yeah, if you do up to do light, you'll just need to check in with Audra or myself because there's lumen limits. They'd need to probably be downcast because it is pretty close to a residential development. So we need to work out the details on that. But if, if the design review committee gives you preliminary approval for an option, then it wouldn't have to come back here. Great. Thank you. They're usually fairly low profile and they come in black. So they would just disappear pretty much. And again, they only light up when they detect motion after dark. I would be in support of that. It feels like a nice thing to have. I would too. This is Martha. Yeah, I agree. Great. Thank you. I welcome that as an option. By the way, it's so inexpensive. I installed a number of them on a garage. Oh, the solar lights. The solar detected motion lights. I put five of them on and it costs me barely over a hundred dollars. Okay. You can get them with a variety of lumen. We've been. Yes. We've been looking at those frequently over the last year as people have come through with. And they can either shine in one area or they can spread out to about a hundred and eighty degrees. And again, they're, they're not that bright and they only come on when there's motion and five minutes after there's no more motion, they go out anyway. Any other questions, comments? We can run through the criteria for all projects, exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings for historic structures, the removal of extortion of historic materials or alteration of features and spaces that characterize the historic property shall be avoided character defining features, finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that will characterize an historic building shall be preserved. Did there's no deterioration features here. Any treatments that cause damage to historic materials, including but not limited to chemical or physical treatments such as handblasting shall not be approved. This application is acceptable. Existing buildings shall be recognized as a physical record of their time, place and use. Any new development shall be differentiated from the old, but shall respect to be compatible with a massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable. And I believe that there's one. Yeah, this one's a little funky. Anyway, landscaping, screening and site furnishings projects within the design review overlay district or subject to the landscaping work where much shall be considered the following site furnishings including fencing, seating, other types of site furniture visible from the street or side yards. And again, that's acceptable in this location. And that's all the criteria. All in favor of the application. Speak your names then. Marissa. Liz. And Steve. So it is approved for two zero. So, since you're here, we'll have you sign this. Tonight. We can hopefully. We're moving on the administrative site plan tomorrow. I'll just need to know what you pick out for lights before I can issue the permit. Awesome. Thank you. I appreciate your time. Thank you very much for coming to the meeting. And good luck with your project. Technology. Well, we'll have to come in tomorrow and like. I thought it used to be taped down. But it is. No, I, that we, we don't have any public public in here. Just applicants. So we shouldn't need it. Just us. Thank you. The next application is for 132 Main Street Vermont program for quality and healthcare replacement of 14. First floor windows. Okay. So we have some extra additional photos. But what they show is. Like a broken. These windows are old. Extra packets of pictures. And I can suddenly. So they can be shared. For those of you folks. I'm sorry. It's okay. It's okay. There's this. Bonnie has provided additional other reference photos showing the interior of the windows as they showing the deterioration. But we just have the paper copies tonight. So I can maybe hold them up to the, the camera if you need them, but I don't know if you're going to need them or not. I am. Yeah. My apologies. I thought about taking me in this inside photos just to show you. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I have broken ropes. So the windows are the old pulley and rope style. And out of the 14 windows, six of the 14 have broken pulley ropes. So I just wanted to bring in just a couple extra reference photos, but. So thank you for having me. Our permit is. We're going to replace them with custom made Marvin vinyl clad windows. The windows of the sash, the sill, the trim is all to replicate the historical originals. One window has already previously been done in 2016. So. So we did in 2016 will be the same exact window procedure that was done at that time. So they will look exactly like that window referenced in the photos as being the 2016 window. When we started this project, I called the Vermont historic preservation officer, Laura Trishman and conferred with her about who to find as a contractor, because we know that our windows are historical. She referred us to Mark Brown now of Marvin designs. Excuse me. And that is who we got the other window from in 2016. So he is actually the contractor who will be doing the work. He is the contractor who does all of the state historical preservation. So they basically have approved our project has been approved by the historic preservation officer and she's approved our contractors. So I've just provided some photos. If I'll get to them, I can just sort of, I can show them up on the screen if you tell me which ones. Okay. So. Sorry. It's okay. If you look on your on the laptop there, you should be able to see what I'm showing. Okay. So I wanted to stop sort of there. Okay. Okay. So the window that you see on the right is the 2016 Marvin window. That is trim custom made custom stained. To match that existing original, that number one next to it. But you can see from in the building, the new window, unless you stand right up to it. So the interior, the only difference you see is the absence of the ropes. So that's what those photos there were showing on. It may just be the photo, but it, and this is out of our purview, but the trim on the interior seems to be different to me. Doesn't have that kind of like. There should be a better close up of that trip. Yep. So the profile there. And in your right, the angle is a little funky. Yeah, maybe the strings, the strings on that net, this photo here. Yep. Are kind of hiding that the profile is basically the same. I think it's missing one. You see those little edges. But it has a more sort of like tapered in versus a very square. Yes. Yes. And that's kind of my bad photo taking. I was trying to get as much of the detail as I could showing the strings. I appreciate having them back to back. So it's a, it's a hard photograph to take. It is. And I was doing that with a cell phone. Usually when they can see the differences, like the existing has the screws where you access the road panels. Yep. The new one doesn't. There's that missing feed. There's one feed. In that trim there. Yep. That's missing. All that. If you're going to be filling the cabinet. The weights are in to be able to insulate. So what they're going to do, the plan is to remove the trim, the existing trim and save it. If we can, some of it's going to be brittle. It's not going to be. It's not going to be brittle. It's not going to be brittle. It's not going to be brittle. He's hoping that most of it can just be saved. So all of that outside face trim can be reused. The interior. Satch and sill will be replaced. Because the window. The. Well, it'd be a one unit instead of what's now. A unit. And then there's this added aluminum. Storm on the outside that. We won't. So that's the difference in the way they are, but it's still the same size. The hole isn't changing. It's the exact same. Oh, everything is the exact same. The paints, the stains are the exact same paints and stains that were used in the 2016 project. They're all still available. And those are historically, you know, they're all still available. They're all still available. They're all still available. They're all still available. Corrupt as far as exterior and interior. The plans. You know, we did include the plan with all the sex of the window itself. And then there is also an example of the colors. For reference, I included the original 2016 permit, which actually shows a historical 1902. Reference it showed where that window had originally been boarded out. Yep. There it is. And so now that is the new 2016 window. The plan. By Marvin is to come in and tent and replace each window individually. It will be tinted on the outside, tinted on the inside for dust and insulation abatement. And they will remove and replace the window in completion in one day. Then clean up and move to the next room. That way we can also work in the office. So they'll go room by room and we'll be kicking people out as appropriate, but it also keeps the disruption in the parking lot and everything else down to a bare minimum because it's a two-man job, one man on the inside, one man on the outside. And they can just complete a package, move on to the next day. And they would, you know, of course, starting when the weather is warmer. So maybe in the next few weeks, you know, when it's weather permitting and warming. Quick question. Marvin clad ultimate double hungs are usually metal clad on the outside. And the integrity line is the fiberglass cladding. I'm assuming this is the, unless they changed it, I'm assuming it's clad with metal on the outside, which makes no difference. I think these are actually a vinyl. I don't think these are metal. The specs do say vinyl. When they're custom painted and or stained in the factory. So they have all the colors. When they're there, the trim, they're actually stained in the factory. Well, that's weird. It's interesting because it says online item quotes line number one quantity one. This is for one window says top sash primed pine sash exterior primed pine sash interior. So I'm not sure it really makes no difference. The clad ultimate double hung is a, is a good product. I've just seen the vinyl clad this line. This is the top line window. And yeah, these are, they are, well, as you see, I mean, they're 1415 almost $2,000 a piece. I mean, the prices range because each one was individually measured because some of the windows are even by a quarter inch from top to bottom. So each window had to be so that it's custom for each window opening. That way the opening does not have to be, you know, modified in any way. It is just removing that old one and popping in that way. I was looking at the specs for 2016. I think are those solid wood windows? They aren't clad. It's just curious. It's what it's like. I read them. They are vinyl. They are vinyl, the ones that were put in in 16. That's a vinyl as well. And it's been factory painted or colored. So it's the same round, the interior. And then they're pre painting some of the outside exterior pieces and interior pieces in order to save labor. And because of the weather, they're going to do a lot of that stuff in house and pre paint and pre stain a lot of the boards that they have to. So it's a much faster assembly. It's pretty easy. Much easier to put in one window in a day. I would double check for them only description of the wood would ultimately insert double hung here. So I think. I'm not going to say it's private. It says factory and ammo primer. Treated bare wood. But is that just the trim pieces? This is the, I don't know. That's a sash. Yeah. This is for the 2016 job. One is fine. But the Claid is a, whether it's the I think right now we're looking at the stuff from the 2016 so that the specs on the window does seem to say would ultimate insert double hung I didn't see where you saw the bear would but anyway just yeah let me just look Steve was saying just check with the window they were supposed to basically be the same window whether they choose how they prime prime exterior and so the new one will be ever be plaid exterior prime prime interior that's the difference between the 2016 window and the window that they're proposing now Mark that's okay they have the same profiles the cladding is just wrapped around the wood anyway but as far as like what it will change for visual on the exterior the side by side photo that shows side by side the 2016 and the existing the only thing that's different is the it won't have that aluminum storm right that's the only difference that is noticeable will be noticeable would be a will they will not have that aluminum storm if the windows will no longer need them you know they're they're better right now we have custom inserts for storms on the interior to help with the drafts and the heat loss and I have to put up boards on my two windows in front of my space because when the wind blows it actually blows those plastic inserts out so much wind gap there one of the things you'll find out is the hollow space that holds the window weights once they empty those out they can fill that with insulation and then your drapes will no longer blow around yeah yeah that would be we've had things blow out at us like dead bugs in a meeting or negative direct but it's just sitting at her desk the wind was blowing that day and you could hear so some of the pains are actually out of their frames of the storm so you can hear it rattling and she's having her meeting and going along and all of a sudden this gust of wind comes and this giant dead bug flies out and lands right on her laptop and she screams and it flew out of the window somehow so it was time to do something about these windows you know we're burning up a lot of fuel we have high fuel costs and if any of you have any additional comments or suggestions not from me then I can go down through the criteria for the project all projects exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing buildings shall be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district the removal of historic materials or alterations of features and spaces that characterize an historic property shall be avoided character defining features finishes and construction techniques or examples of craftsmanship that characterize an historic building shall be preserved deteriorated features shall be repaired rather than replaced when possible where the severity of deterioration requires replacement of a character defining feature the new feature shall be replaced in kind any treatments that cause damage including not limited to chemical or physical treatment shall not be approved this replacement of the windows is acceptable existing building shall be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use any new development shall be differentiated from the old but shall respect and be compatible with the massing size scale architectural features detailing an overall character of the primary historic building and nearby historic properties acceptable proportion compatibility of relationship between width and height or facades as well as the relationship of width and height of windows and doors acceptable rhythm the visual pattern established by the alterations of solid walls and openings and the facade of buildings shall create a rhythm here we have an existing rhythm of windows that will be preserved and again patterns of solids and openings shall be preserved to the extent feasible acceptable architectural features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tablet here trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on the existing building shall be considered in the alteration of a building architectural features on an addition shall not duplicate but shall respect the original that's not applicable here but the features is acceptable and lastly windows and doors on historic structures character defining window and door patterns placement sizes proportions and original features such as trim sash and molding shall be preserved to the extent possible when preservation is not possible such character defining windows and doors must be rehabilitated or replaced in kind windows and doors that are not character defining may be replaced but such replacements must be compatible with the historic building now materials and architectural features that's acceptable all in favor of the application speak your names Ben so it's approved for to nothing thank you very much this is just windows we should be able to get that permit out tomorrow thank you so much thank you very much there is okay awesome again good luck with your project it'll be nice to be warm again or cool in the summer or cool in the summer as well real energy saving plus the first thing I'm going to do is to track those are extras we don't need those thanks again so the next application is for 203 very street on a replica on zoom his wife Heather southwell did we did I pronounce your name correctly you did yes good job but I'm glad I get close describe your application for us well we are faced with a rear porch on the back of the house that has brought it away and it is sitting on a small shed structure below it and it is all not structurally sound so in order to replace the porch you have to remove that shed structure and part of that will require removing the stairs that are attached to the shed structure so we are going to replace the stairs in the back porch and I can share any part of the application that people need me to I understand that there is an apartment over the store is that correct and right now the stairs the rise over run is not to code so that's the other reason why we want to replace stairs so that the rise and the run is safer because now they're very steep and there's a roof over the stairs and it is not hung high enough so there's not adequate had clearance the top of the stairs either this work we're doing is really to make everything safer because right now it is not is there someone living there now there is not the previous owner was living there we see a picture of that I did look at the application online but I just wanted to refresh my memory so this is from the back and here the shed part the current porch and so here's the current stairwell right with the roof over it and then I'm going to scroll down here's where those stairs are supported by that shed in a way that's really not working so there's like replaced with the longer open stairs and I think Frank you said that the the treads are going to be the treads going to be metal open yeah open metal grade and stuff will be able to fall through and that shed is completely gone here and instead there's supports that go all the way down to the ground for the porch and the top of the stairs correct and then there's a little bit different but this is going to be the new porch area with the roof the roof just going to go part way yeah the roof will stop at the end of the building yep and that's what the stairs are going to look like coming down so the stairs will also go down and stop versus turning the corner of the bottom correct and the landing at the top of the stairs will also be a metal grade right yeah thank you and I saw that there was some question about where the property line is are these new stairs the proposed stairs going to be in exactly the same spot they will they will occupy the same footprint yes okay they will not as far into the alley because they won't be making a turn that's right so it'll actually end up being further away from the property line that it is now correct and that red line is approximately where we understand the property line to be yeah so the new stair I mean railing and so on will be like pressure treated lumber there will be and it will be painted but it'll get a year of time before it's painted so that the paint adheres to the material better yeah I realize that these drawings are especially regarding the treads are just for illustrative purposes so it may not actually it may actually have this when you purchase the treads and the nickels on the backside of the tread you can get a pin reduces the opening between the bottom between the top of one tread and the bottom of the other to make it a code compliant stair okay and have a space bigger than four inches between your treads and often when you buy those metal treads they have a they don't all do but some do have a metal plate on the backside that is a riser on the back of the tread that then makes those code compliant I would just check with that's what you're getting it seemed as though you hired Dan Clare who does a very nice job so I'm certain that we'll do the job that and this will need a building permit so we're going through this the project the larger project has to go to the development review board in two weeks so we've been waiting on having having the building permit process get moving until we finish up the rest of it but Chris is in on the project and just if that issue comes up you can get those treads with an integrated back I like that so that it's you don't have to like come up with some other weird special move sure thank you I'll talk to Dan about that because that's his real house he'll do a nice job his work is very conscious of building codes any committee members have any other comments questions or suggestions then again I'll go through the criteria sheet for all projects exterior design and materials of new construction or alterations of existing building should be consistent and compatible with the characteristics of the existing building or other properties in the district additions and alterations to non-historic and non-contributing structures should respect and be compatible with existing patterns and setbacks found in adjacent buildings new additions on non-historic and non-contributing structures that overshadow or diminish the historic character of adjacent contributing structures are prohibited the replacement of the stairs on the upper portion of the deck are acceptable existing buildings should be recognized as a physical record of their time place and use acceptable architectural features including but not limited to cornices windows shutters fan lights and tabulator trim and other forms of molding or character defining detailing prevailing on these existing building should be considered in the alteration of a building acceptable and I believe that's all all in favor of the project is presented your names Marsha I'm a yes so four to nothing in favor and do you want to mention about getting this signed by him well it's important because it has to go to the development review board so Frank I'll send you a copy a scanned copy of this recommendation form so you have it for your records it's also going to go in the perm the application file that goes to the development review board because they didn't include any recommendations or changes or anything we're not going to have you sign it because it's not don't really need that to get the final say so but we'll see you I will see you at the development review board hearing in a couple of weeks just like you did for tonight you'll get an email with that agenda link and you'll also get in that agenda link there'll be a staff report that's my summary of the whole project under all the applicable zoning regulations I'm working on that already and just as a little FYI I haven't got any concerns from the department of public which is the main department that would be looking at the use change but you'll hear more from me on this in the next week week and a half great thank you thank you you really appreciate it thank you thank you and good luck with your project thank you thank you have a nice night okay next on the agenda is for 90 Berry Street an informal review of a proposed porch renovation is someone there and what's your name Michael Michael I'm having a lot of trouble hearing you could you pull up to the microphone a little more how's that that's much better thank you thank you I apologize in advance by spit but through the mask I probably sometimes the microphones actually have a harder time with the deeper voices okay I think it just doesn't doesn't hit pick it up quite as well okay so you guys got the drawings from Joel the architect so just a little history on 90 we've been here before because 90 had 90 got CDBG money through the city so we worked with Kevin and crew on that we were here on railing for the accessible ramp on the new apartment that we the apartment that we renovated to the ADA standards we have just about around $200,000 to do accessibility, electrical upgrade weatherization, new heating, roof, driveway, new waterline from the city of and when we got the CDBG we asked for the porch but we didn't get enough money to porch and all the other stuff and we had to go back to the well because the roof failed and so we got an initial wild gas that would cost 40 grand to fix the porch and we figured okay we can buy the bullet for that given all the other money that's going into it well as the construction team was there Carpenter started looking at the porch and watching it separate from the side of the house and he said well I hope they won't notice through the air I am too they went through a line by line we got the drawings that you see from Joel and the estimate before we pay for engineering and structural engineering and all that other stuff that I've learned we now have to do is a minimum of $160,000 and the value on the house is about $200,000 we've just put over 200 in it we've got another 5 or 10 to put in it on fixing the apartment where the mess dealers were cooking and then fixing the apartment ceiling where we had to go through the ceiling to do the weatherization because there wasn't enough ease and if we went in under the ease that was that old noven tube insulation changing that would have cost us another $40,000 this is a hole in the ground that there has been a lot of money poured so I'm here to ask folks on this committee have any ideas how we can get a porch that fits standards and not have to lay out $160,000 we just got an award from the Department of Mental Health of $400,000 for our buildings putting more than a third of it towards one porch we have $100,000 award point of all the bricks we have to put in a new lift and $160,000 so I'm kind of at a place where we're looking for help ideas I'm sure that one suggestion will be to look for more money and I'm looking and there might be a pot of money at Down Street that would be get $40,000 and oh no I'm sorry $30,000 and with our $40,000 that brings it up to $70,000 and we still don't need to have half of it is there anything porch dangerous well we've got to prop it up somehow it's sole purpose I mean it's primary purpose is access to one second floor apartment but it was built in the day when that was a single family home and it was very elegant home it's a two-story wraparound it's a beautiful porch it is the pictures are gorgeous what is the flooring in the porch is that real expensive the fur floor or is it it looks like bead board where is it failing it's coming off if you go up where the roof is the roof is starting to come away we're going to go down the column get to the bottom of the column that's been MacGyvered eight or ten times how it's attached to the ground has been MacGyvered have you looked at TechnoMetalPost we haven't had I don't know what that is but if Steve and Jason and Connor aren't going to make that call whatever when we got the $440,000 guess that was pre-pandemic when a deck board could buy for four bucks another 12 sure yeah so I have a question is this building then in commercial use or these four apartments last winter we took people from Good Sam as a transition in three of the apartments and we had another set of folks that we work with in the fourth we currently have three of the apartments are folks that we work with and the fourth one still has somebody from Good Sam who's waiting and has been waiting for five months now to get into one of the Berry Housing Authority apartments are you using the historic preservation tax credit at all let's talk to Caitlin about that and July it's one of those don't hold the breath on this one there's not much there there there's not much equity whatsoever okay whatever equities in the building VHCB owns you know refinancing $160,000 porch on the $200,000 house right okay once Caitlin will do the best she can I just was curious great on a lot of things with a lot of good thank you both the ground floor and second floor systems or systems attached securely to the house I couldn't say for positive I don't know there's a second floor you should be able to look up underneath and see the joist going across and you should and across the house but there's some very expensive ceiling stuff on it so you can't see underneath what we can see with that expensive ceiling stuff fell out is some old rough cut that's correctly for today's and it's not what you can see it's probably the 18 I think that one's $18.98 remove that ceiling piece by piece gently and salvage as much as much as possible to give you an idea of how you could stabilize both the upper and lower and then you can I mean basically it's a by eight or depending on whether it's a by eight or two by 10 frame system just like you would frame the floor of a house properly well today you'd use pressure treated material but you can either replace pieces sister on pieces add pieces to bring it to save much of the material that's good and bring it up the code by adding that structural components so you can do that without having to tear the whole thing down and start over but it's pretty soft when you walk on it so I guess that's part of the reason why Jason I counter didn't have a lot of faith with those things that you that's seem to me that where a lot of this failure is coming from is how it's attaching to the ground because it's moving and what's there's a thing called a techno metal post which is basically a big screw to drive into the ground and get down below frost and you can do that it's actually very minimally invasive and pretty easy to like get into those things and then you can kind of support the post off of that and then you're not you're down below frost and it's a well supported thing so it's not now moving that way right that's not going to help you with your floor joy spacing or whether that's spongy or that's not a thing but my suspicion is your main problems are coming from it not being having a good foundation and that's a relatively inexpensive way to get found is a way of prolonging your endless expensive having not seen the problem I don't I can't speak to that but it is a it is a solution that I've used in the past and I think is remarkable of modern engineering as far as how to get foundations especially for things like this just for clarity is it a subtype of a helical pile or the same kind of pile techno metal post is a branch of a helical pile that's local there's a distributor here much better that does that so there's a whole bunch of different people and of helical pile okay helical anchor yeah H-L-I-C-L techno metal post is three words okay and there's a exact report lives here in town and that's his business yeah I was just looking it up so that somebody honors are going to know but I bring it up because it's local because it's a good solution to this problem that I assume is where a lot of this coming from yeah and you said you're working with DeWolf engineers I don't want to take on that talk we have some good ideas too but yeah maybe that's down the road but it is something that Chris would know about and it is measurable okay it's not just like a fly by see-to-your-pants kind of thing so now I like to put your 4x4 in yeah so just for the design review committees understanding too the building is listed on the national register if for some reason they get to the point where they need to try and demolish the porches they're going to have to go to the development review board for approval and so yeah it would be and the porches are described within the national registry so any thoughts you have on getting and how they might be able to be saved are really appreciated so thank you for looking through this the first part is to have somebody just explore what the issues are which means somebody may have to crawl around underneath the ground level porch remove some of the lattice and or the covering go down to the ground and crawl around underneath to examine what's there and how what kind of shape it's in if there are any deficiencies if anything's separating or if it's I mean that'll tell you what you need to do is what your options are as far as repairing or replacing components one second we have a late sign in I have a G care again could you unmute and let me know who you are and what you were signing on to Montpelier's design review committee meeting for our resident of Montpelier I live in Saban street and I was just listening in Frank Saliani is a neighbor of mine and I don't know if that issue has already come and gone but I thought I'd tune in it has the design review of that has already happened about the stairs and the porch the application will be on the development review board meeting thanks okay very good thank you you're welcome Ben do you know of any other one of the cars on Jules design is the tip wall on the porch is too low and so he's got these steel railings steel railings which are very pricey you know steel railings are us I happen to build lots of these bills I have no idea what price you got for that that is something I do but it's there's not like an off the shelf thing no I guess the other way to ask the question is there another way to deal with raising that up that's costly yeah I think there is I mean I would need to think about it I mean looking at the materials of what you know what I know goes into creating a steel rail and then painting it you know making sure that it's off and excuse me go ahead and sort of doing all the sort of shop drawings there's probably other wooden alternatives with maybe some sort of 4x4 metal screen that would go in there whether that meets historical that's a whole other question okay I do believe that there are more economical ways to do it yeah often yeah those historic railings that are too sharp just put a very simple you know like a pipe railing oh yeah we've got some of those and then just paint them black and they kind of disappear you know they're not that visible so that's one option that's pretty simple and doesn't really detract from the historic railing okay have you talked to Chris Lumber about that one about yeah I don't know if Jason did or not yeah I have no idea but that's always in case he didn't you know yes he should need to you know get some other input but they he might have some other ideas as to what meets code and then it's tweaking it a little bit to make sure that it blends in now what about do we have to we have to cover the underneath words like it is now right now there is a ceiling on the lower ports so it's almost like it's kind of like a tongue and groove or a bead board or something yes I don't know what it is but I don't really see it from the street is that something we can trim back on we just have like regular deck exposed joists you're saying that that might be okay yep okay I just before I go back to the you know have some I have to spend more money but it sounds like you need to remove portions of it in any way to examine what the structural issues might be and again what's there is a bead board component which used to be their full inch or 3 quarter inch material they had something that kind of looked like it but anything we can not buy this project is overwhelming with the cost it's just been blowing me away this is not my day job or anything this is my retirement gig wow staggering these days anybody else want to throw in I mean once you explore the skeleton underneath everything that'll tell you it'll give you more idea of what your options are okay yeah I mean I do agree that looking at those rails I'm certain are a significant expense yeah that's what Jason said to when he looked at them that's going to cost you a lot of money as Liz mentioned a pipe rail system they make a black wire that is frequently used on dex interior exterior as well that in combination with a pipe rail on the top and maybe a couple of lines underneath might be sufficient I can't recommend the cables to Jason and because they've done a lot of work on us for us on our buildings they know the kind of beating that they take he said they're prone to failure probably not a good idea they're roughly yeah that's the business we're in yeah okay thank you good luck with your exploration I know such a deal thank you folks good luck Michael thank you very much everyone had a chance to look at the meeting minutes from February the 7th yep and I moved to accept them the way they're written all in favor of accepting the minutes speak your names Martha I mean yes Steve yes so the minutes are approved does anyone have anything else to add at this point otherwise our next meeting is March the 7th and do I hear a motion to adjourn so moved Ben and Steven so meeting is adjourned thank you all for coming thank you okay take care have a good night yeah good night