 Yeah, welcome back to think tech on a given Thursday. I'm Jay Fidel is the one o'clock clock And we're talking about global connections with Carlos Suarez who joins us from Mexico or near Mexico City Let me say that yeah. Hi Carlos Aloha Jay very good to connect and of course this is now the new normal We all have to stay home and fortunately think tech has been ahead of the game but we've been doing this for years now and Despite the all the changes happening in these last days with this corona virus We are to continue a dialogue and you know, obviously share information keep our audience informed raising public awareness as you say so Yes, sir, the show must go on. Yes, sir And remote is the word of the day and we connect more and more with people remotely in various places in the world It doesn't matter across the street or across the world So it's it's always great to talk to you Carlos, especially now because you're in the international relations department there and And we have international relations on the block today after Donald Trump's Remarks about coronavirus yesterday Aside from all the other gaps and footfalls That he has shown us in the past few days a complete and total lack of leadership and honesty We now have a huge Assault on international relations in the form of shutting down all passenger traffic non US citizen and permanent resident passenger traffic coming from Europe Can you talk about what happened and how it how it is evolving? Well, it is evolving so quickly literally, you know by the hour and day in these last days And so it's a very important thing for us to be both, you know, stay informed talk about these things share You know make sure we separate reality and things that we know and don't know but essentially last night We had a rare opportunity to see the president speak to us from the White House give a press conference Literally where he was reading a script as something he used to criticize a lot before But in a moment like this we have a complex emergency a public health crisis But obviously something that is impacting the global economy in dramatic ways It's a time where you know, you need crisis management crisis communication and especially on something like this a pandemic We've known we've had some before and we will continue to face these in the future This is where you need a time for really the experts to help give us the the facts the information You know the the medical professionals the the scientists And you know the US has them, but we had a lot of bumbling efforts You know and the president sending a lot of mixed signals of maybe you know over over emphasizing maybe that this was going to be gone before long and You know a growing sort of silent criticism from behind Moreover, we we see different reaction in other places where some of the political leaders have taken very quick and decisive action Whether South Korea of course Italy locking down now It's come to the US in a way that you know We're told very clearly this this leader of the of the division of the CDC his name escapes me right now But he's been there since 1986 a remarkable individual He was testifying before the Congress a few days ago and the bottom line. It's gonna get worse It's gonna get very bad before it gets better So how do we handle it? Are we prepared and here the role of a leader is to both allay our concerns assure us that yes The experts are on it but not send mixed signals and particularly the leader of the United States So our president is always a global leader and now the Speech he gave yesterday that left a lot of confusion, but also a bit of anger Specifically from our European allies and I say allies because of course today with Trump There's a lot of tension and animosity Traditionally throughout the last what 70 80 years now World War two Western Europe and the United States have had always a very close working relationship of trust maybe disagreements But certainly respect and co-operation and coordination today. We don't see that we see the Europeans Very much denouncing what what effectively is a you know in some ways his his speech was like blaming it on them as if they were The source of this issue and that's not what you do Basically that we've done more than they well not quite and frankly you can imagine a small country like Denmark just to pick out a hat I mean, it's a country that has obviously Capacity and and expertise and you know, I'm not sure what they're doing right now But let me say I'm sure they have a handle on it and they're not, you know, their leader whoever it is It's not going to be sending confusing mixed signals So this press conference very important to have it because he needs to convey to the nation and he doesn't have a lot of press conferences Very few no exactly Well, they're pretty much gone now It's the it's the chopper talk that we see on his way out of the Rose Garden But essentially, you know, it left again both confusion and I took the effort to actually listen to it And my first thing because he literally said not only is it going to stop traffic from Europe, but he did make wherever it's to You know commerce and trade and when I heard that I thought what how could you possibly stop for, you know And then he had to send out a tweet and say no, no, no, it's only people Well, you know get your facts right and if you're going to deliver a speech make sure somebody has proofread it And you know exactly the important points to make keep it short keep it brief but clear He had to then go and clarify But also this is not the time to somehow point fingers and blame and call it a foreign virus, you know some of the language also is something that attracts a lot of you know concern because You know dead pandemics don't have They don't have passports. They don't have identities. They you know in this globalized world They're going to be there and they're here now everywhere. And so we need to coordinate. We need to cooperate. We need to work together And you know, I think we're seeing some of the results of this more bumbling effort on the part of our leader And it reflects again his lack of understanding I think he gave a talk a few days ago bragging about his uncle a professor at MIT Well, let's hear from his uncle if he's a professor. What does he have to say? Well, he's may not be alive anymore But the point is how can he take credit for somebody in his past who who was an expert scientist or whatever We need we need the real experts to be giving us briefings and information here And the political leaders have a role to kind of step back and let them do it Their role needs to be empathy. It needs to be reassurance Unfortunately for trump, uh, his history of you know, half truths hyperbole and outright lies Means many people a good half of the population is going to be very skeptical about him and the world community too I mean the europeans clearly uh know that he is very Weak in his understanding of issues and knowledge and history And it's all about him about you know, how it'll affect his own personal political agenda So that's not a time to to make this into that Well, the context for me is that when he first took office He started attacking the eu he started complaining that uh, they weren't bearing their fair share of defense costs and um and eu expenses And uh, he alienated every single country in europe that were our allies from way back when And uh, you know over time, uh, he has not improved on that He's had gaffes and missteps all along the way three and a half years now Um, and I would imagine you you're probably closer to this than me I would imagine if the average european thinks he's an idiot and the average european leader thinks he's a moron Uh, you know, so what you know, what is what is the european view of him now even before his remarks yesterday? Well again, yeah, I mean they've seen him on the stage and whenever he's come to meetings there Whether the nato or the you know the doubles meetings in in uh in switzerland or the g20 g said whatever He's uncomfortable. He's awkward. He is not a president who Supports multilateralism now that doesn't make him unique We've had over the years different trends and in general when we look at u.s foreign policy the role of the u.s in the world There's always a tug and and push and pull of internationalism versus isolationism different variations today We are seeing a sort of a version of neo isolationism Trump's policy america first I mean, there's a rationale for it. Yes, take care of your homeland Take care of your people but to do it in a way that disregards very long long standing, you know personal ties and and commitments You know the presence of the u.s. Why we have military bases in europe or in south korea This there's a context there and it's not all about money and transactions Trump does see the world and we describe his foreign policy as Transaction oriented. How much is it costing us? Well, what are we getting out of it? And so he'll he'll you know argue with the nato allies and it's all about What they're paying now, you know, there's a place for that But there's also a need to recognize that the alliance is there for a purpose for a reason and it fosters cooperation Frankly to address emergencies like this the more you understand how others work You have a you know lines of communication that are open consultation But we have seen a pretty sharp break with this presidency sort of giving up that a long long standing tradition of Multilateralism and maybe just you know Cooperation and and I think the europeans were very stung by the announcement because it came you know blindsided them And so for many it was you know, they have denounced it Especially, you know the the part in which he's essentially blaming the europeans for this That's neither correct nor is it the right thing to do if it was So it is further, you know, it just reinforces exactly a strong view continuation of the same isolationist policy where he doesn't care about them or care about their reactions to his Mach mach machinations, but you know, uh, I'm just a hard question But you might be able to help me with this You know the the world order Has changed and is changing And uh, we started off after world war two with the marshal plan. We high credibility We saved the world for democracy the whole world Uh, you know people threw roses at us everywhere we went Um and over time. I think we blemish that a little bit, but but I think we were fine My view anyway until trump got here and then trump began to rip it up So what you know, what's happened now is different. It's unprecedented at least since the war And I wonder what your thoughts are on not only american leadership But american leadership for the world order and what it means to lose the world order that we had Yeah, well, you know a couple of things here real quick I think we we've got to recognize that yeah, the world is changing and and for americans to understand It is not the world of you know early post cold war even the second half of the 20th century where american leadership was Unquestioned and it was even you know, despite differences. It was understood that the u.s Was leading an alliance of you know, liberal democracies open free trade, etc Um, let me say this though that you know the decline of american influence or leadership It has begun long before trump and and maybe it reflects You know fariz akaria the talking head on cnn He published a book some years ago that's a classic called the post america world And it really speaks to the relative decline of the u.s not only because Well, the u.s is no longer calling shots, but mainly he argues the rise of the rest You know china is a big player now india an emerging market and player Russia redefining so the world out there is changing becoming more relevant and the u.s is kind of muddling along but no longer calling the shots like it once did and you know I want to share with you a couple of books that uh, you know, I teach courses here on us foreign policy And they're helping understand the role of the u.s in the world. It's a changing world And and and they reflect against some of the talks. This is a book a classic one Oh some six seven years ago. Henry Kissinger published on world order. Of course. He's this, you know, classic strategic thinker Very much, you know power politics the world of rail politic And we do still see that patterns of these enduring geopolitical conflicts the u.s in china russia in its role the u now as a new player so understanding these sort of Broad trends and and and so Kissinger helped provide a foundation for that a pretty good overview in general But more to the point what we see a number of books in these last few years Examples, uh, steven waltz a professor at harvard. He's got a book called the hell of good intentions The subtitle americans foreign policy elite and the decline of u.s primacy So again reflecting this trend another book and I find this one quite valuable Richard haas who's president of the council on formulations He was in the mainly the I think the bush one administration head of the policy planning planning staff And his book is a world in disarray american foreign policy and the crisis of the old order the order has changed The u.s has to be a little more humble and realistic It should have a leadership role Maybe not the dominant calling the shots like we used to but it should be at the table working in concert with the others Today we see a decline in that And maybe again another book. These are a couple of uh, they were staffers in the national security council for obama Evo the dolder and james lindsay the empty throne america's abdication of global leadership And of course trump has accelerated that but let me just say this We have seen this happening Decline in u.s influence for some time now since the 90s accelerated difference But now under trump super accelerated so that he is literally completely, you know left You know no interest in it and not only that again his own background as an individual He didn't come to the office with foreign policy experience, but more than that. He's not interested in the history He doesn't know, you know the importance of diplomacy or recognize it and in the end We have a world where we have shared global challenges a pandemic crisis like this are a good example You need leaders who have trust who? Who who who share information and rather than you know trying to blame and uh, Otherwise not coordinate not consult. This you know this can only come back to bite us in time You need your friends, you know In moments of crisis you need your friends and and and even your you know adversaries to be there To work with because you know again pandemics. These are not things that are going to stop at the border And they're not interested in politics. They're they're Science it's a disease. Let me add maybe one last book. Uh, you may know, of course He's been in the news with the with the uh Recent to me too moment Ronan Farrow the son of Mia Farrow and Woody Allen Uh, he published a book a few years ago called war on peace the end of diplomacy and the decline of american influence Uh, he himself has got a curious story. He came in as a young young, you know 20 year old working as a state department, uh consultant with richard holbrook former ambassador who passed away a few years ago And he got insights into really the decline of american influence really the destruction of diplomacy Which again under trump has just been you know decimated now So our foreign policy establishment is in a real crisis and uh, you know, it'll take some time to repair It'll take some time before the u.s returns It will never be what it was, you know immediately post-war war two No, we have to recognize that but it should be as a responsible player at the table and and right now I think the europeans are writing it out. Maybe hoping that he doesn't continue after this next election But uh, uh, let me just say again. It also reflects the waves that we have we have tendencies you look at bush one He was a multilateral, uh, you know, he he fought the first person persian gulf war with a broad coalition Yeah, u.m. Resolution He would be followed by clinton also a multilateralist But in the early post-cold war period clinton Kind of wanting to maybe come back home and focus on domestic policy understandably And in the end of that cold war the early years were very exciting, you know Hey, you know at the end of history. Well, that didn't last us long We began to see new threats, uh humanitarian intervention Ethnic violence and the u.s still figuring out, you know, what is its role? Working in concert with europeans We then come to the bush two and he represents again a swing towards the unilateralism Unlike his father didn't build the international support for the very very controversial and tragic intervention in iraq overthrowing the government We get back to obama and he represents again the swing towards multilateralism Of course, he was like a rock star in europe but in part because he He he knew how to work closely with them how to empathize and and you know, the basic skills of international diplomacy international negotiations You have to be respectful of the other side. You have to understand their interests You may not like them. You may not agree You need to respect them and you need to know that Something is important to them just as you would want them to understand your interest We don't see that in the president today. So trump represents a break from the past. Yes It's a shift to unilateralism and you know, sort of a hyper nationalism, but it's even more than that it's it's this bullying and and sort of a You know, we have a concept of american exceptionalism that's very prominent throughout our history And it's a view that well, we've got special qualities. We we bring to the world We have a certain almost moral imperative to help But hard to make that case seriously. Yeah Yeah, how can you reconcile that? So, you know what when I get from this is that we have lost the ability to do or the The idea of doing diplomacy and diplomacy is the is the lubricant if you will in national international relations And then we have you know, and what you describe the lack of the loss of influence. It's not only europe It's everywhere, especially, you know recently in asia as well Our relations are different everywhere But here's what I here's what I'd like to follow up with carlos So he doesn't even want to seat at the table He wants to turn his back and once in a while get involved and be a bully And everybody kisses ring But the fact is he doesn't want to make any any contribution To the effort of international global cooperation What is a world like that when you create the vacuum as one of those books portrayed it, you know a vacuum in leadership And when you have our former allies are all ticked off at us and resent us for so many things What is that world like and and now maybe it's too early to say because this speech was you know, the capper on things It was only yesterday But going forward we're going to see we're going to see reactions. We're going to see reactions from the nations in europe We're going to see people sort of get on board about You know calling our bluff on these things We're going to see people find out that we don't have testing for the corona virus You know, korea is doing, you know 100 times better 100 Maybe a thousand times better than we're doing on testing We're we have completely failed and yet he says oh we have tests for everybody not true It's a big lie and it will be found out and it will be observed by other nations So my question is when everybody realizes that the emperor is not wearing clothing What is the world order then What is what does the table look like at that time? Well, it is it is and I got one more book to share with you. I think this answer is it for us The title of this is chaos in the liberal order, you know, we have had this liberal international order established after world war two And very much integrating the world Today it's uncertainty and I think it's going to be a heavy price. It'll be difficult for the us to regain It will never quite go back to where it was But let's hope that in time and some future leadership it can at least foster, you know Return to a working relationship Today, obviously we have gained a lot of distrust a lot of animosity And so what does that mean or what are the effects of that? I think increasingly you're going to see many leaders Let's say in europe that traditionally work with us. They're going to be reluctant to share information They're going to be you know concerned about including us in the loop because they don't they don't trust The current leadership now. I want to say and and I hope this is the case It's you know leaders and maybe intellectuals elites And even average people often can separate someone like this leader at the moment that we have and the american people culture society Or even again even in europe although they're the dying ageing generation those who know the story that the us Had played such a critical role rebuilding helping the european Even those in in the post-communist eastern europe central europe The us was very important in in helping pull them away from the soviet sphere So this older generation it's there Unfortunately the younger population people under 30 today Don't know their history don't read their history. And so many let's say young europeans today don't see the us as having Had any positive role in their lives instead of you know, maybe they saw obama He was popular but now what they see in trump reflects the ugly american in a very very visible way I think americans are really not ugly at all and Unfortunately, that's not the message getting through and that that's gonna paint us anyway You know, it's very interesting that um, you know in this whole contention Between state and federal when the federal does nothing and it has done nothing Uh, you know Essentially over the past three and a half years on so many so many issues Then the states take up the mantle the states begin to do things and that's happening now with uh with the coronavirus The states are becoming more active and they are you know, like ignoring You know the federal influence on the issue because the federal not doing anything and trump is running and making mistakes every day So the same process don't you think uh will happen. I think you alluded to this on an international level Uh, they'll turn their backs on us. They'll they'll solve the problem without us and we lose further credibility because we weren't there We weren't contributing. Uh, we weren't even nice to them And we've become a marginalized country in the world in the world community. Isn't that happening? Absolutely. No, it is very much. Uh, the world we're in now I think a growing distrust and in frustration now That's with most you have a handful, you know, the the you know, victor orb on the leader of hungry who is a very close, uh, you know populist right-wing leader there Close affinity with trump and and maybe the the current leaders in poland as a As an example But in general the the key leadership france germany even the uk And even despite uh boris johnson and his you know romance with with trump I think he's facing a Delegate situation there as they try to transition to a post-eu world The u.s. Is not going to be able to save their butts entirely and and I think the uk is going to be Continuing to muddle through how why didn't trump exclude the uk From his edict his ill-advised yesterday. What was the reason for that? What could be the reason for that? There is a reason and the short one is that basically the european union has what's known as the shengen zone The shengen region which are the outer borders of the european union now the uk was never part of that it because it's physically separate They always kind of controlled more access in and out And that pushed in fact one of the reasons that was pushing for brexit. They wanted even more control But effectively the shengen zone as it's called refers to the now 27 remaining nations that are of the eu And that does not include the you You know uk or even the republic of ireland which is a part of the eu so actually in fact it's 26 nations Let me correct that there are 27 remaining today at the eu But the republic of ireland Physically apart from you know the mainland is not part of this so it is the shengen zone as it's called Because there effectively this is the outer limits of the european union where they control the outer borders Access is more tight if you're coming in to spain from morocco Then if you're going from you know, denmark to sweden the borders are wide open so At first when i heard that too and i thought oh it doesn't include the uk my first time i was all Giving our special you know relationship with like a you know like throwing them a bone Not quite although that was my first answer too. I thought oh my gosh, you know This is just you know you're trying to throw something to boris In fact it has to do with the reality of the shengen zone of the european union where they control the outer borders But again, you know, you know, uh, the uk has somebody persuaded you You remember only a few days ago the minister of health of the uk And that's that he had the infection So I you know, I don't see any reason medically to You know to distinguish between the uk and the rest of the and the eu What's worse is that there are people there are medical professionals Who had said in response to his comments yet to trump's comments yesterday That this is gonna make it worse reason There's no medical reason to cut off europe this way But there's no nobody has there's not evidence-based. It's not medical evidence-based. What is it? It's just maybe it's playing to his base Maybe it's just being a bully. But one more question before we close carlos. Yeah, and that is this You know, you mentioned a couple of times in this discussion that maybe the us has the possibility of coming back And maybe if you know, somebody else hopefully knock wood Somebody else has elected president in november and that person is properly seated and that person sits in the oval office And and would like to make decisions to resurrect our formerly positive relationship with europe and other places in the world Um, is that possible? You said it's going to take a long time. But let me let me ask you What needs to be done? I I make you the next president carlos What would you do to resurrect our formerly positive relationship with all of these countries? Yeah, again, no simple answer, but it's going to take some humility But it's going to take engagement. You have to be there be present You have to listen to them too and not come with an attitude, you know In the past and often from outside The u.s. Is a bully it always has been and certainly, you know Here I am in mexico and in south in latin america There's a long history of that a very asymmetrical relationship But I think this is the challenge for the united states. Uh, it will no longer be the dominant, uh, you know Calling all the shots that it did in especially the early post war period But it needs to be at the table. It needs to be working. So it's going to require Rebuilding trust. I mean, it's like a broken relationship. You've you've got to show by your actions. You've got to show by You know a little humility And that's not always easy. Uh americans, we like to boast, you know, we're number one. We're number one But that sense of american exceptionalism is also viewed with a lot of skepticism by others And I think we've eroded a lot of that trust. So it's not going to come easily It does have to happen and it will gradually improve and I think ultimately once you get people back in government who are more engaging more, uh, let's say Empathetic and and and open communication. We don't have that today. There's not much dialogue happening and it's a very You know aggressive Approach from our current leadership. Uh, and that that has set us back many years You know You know whoever wins the president can patch it up Vice president can be more active a a good secretary state would help and we can work hard over the next, uh You know administration to patch it up, but I think one thing is clear from this discussion carlos It's never going to be the same Right. No, no, this is a game changer. I think the world as we know it is going to be very different as we move forward And uh, you know and and how this is playing out again. We're seeing continued bumbling and and and just very, uh You know not very effective leadership from the u.s. Side That's going to continue to erode our image in the world and particularly with our traditional allies in europe Those are today the ones that are just shaking their heads like Here we go again, and it's just taking us several steps back So unfortunately we got a crisis and that's we're in the crisis We cannot forget we spent half an hour now the two of us are going to go wash our hands And uh, all I can say is that the crisis pervades and I hope that everything is good when we speak to you next time carlos Stay healthy keep washing your hands and uh all all horizontal and vertical surfaces Thank you so much. Carlos Juarez. Thank you. Aloha. Aloha