 Welcome to the Brooklyn Museum. My name's Lauren. I work in our adult programs department here at the museum. We're so excited to kick off our first ever Brooklyn authors book fair. So this is a two-parter. So tonight, we're kicking off the event with a conversation on writing beyond diversity here in Brooklyn with some fabulous Brooklyn authors. And then on Saturday, we're going to have over 40 authors represented here doing readings and doing book signings right here in the glass pavilion in the lobby of the museum and throughout the galleries. So we hope you'll come back and visit with us on Saturday all day long, totally free, just like this. We also have tacos and margaritas, courtesy of Squarespace. So let's give a round of applause for Squarespace. Made this all completely free. So tonight, we're having a conversation with some really fabulous writers who are going to be discussing what it means to write fully dimensional characters in a changing Brooklyn. So we're thinking about moving beyond diversity and storytelling in that sense. So it's my pleasure to introduce tonight's moderator who's going to introduce our writers. Ashley C. Ford has written and guest edited for The Guardian, Elle, Buzzfeed, Slate, ID, and Lenny Letter. And she's currently working on a memoir and co-editing the anthology, Not That Bad Dispatches from Rape Culture with Roxanne Gay. She also teaches writing at the New School and Catapult Co. Please join me in welcoming Ashley C. Ford. Thank you all for coming. I'm so excited to be here. I told them earlier that I've actually never gotten the chance to visit Brooklyn Museum's galleries because every time I come, it's closed because I'm a bad planner. And that's just probably the brain of a creator. I do want to go ahead and introduce the people here who I really want to hear talk so much more than I want to hear myself talk. First of all, Dani Nadina Islam. That's good. Dani is the author of Bright Lines and the founder of High Wildflower Botanica. And Daniel Jose Older. He's OK. You can clap. Daniel is the author of Salsa Nocturna, Shadow Shaper, and the Bone Street Rumba series, of which, if you ask him, he will probably show you the cover of the third one on his phone. It's gorgeous. And you should ask him anyway. Anyway, we are here to obviously talk about writing beyond diversity. So there's been so much talk in the lit community recently about the need for diversity, even with organizations like We Need Diverse Books, talking about children's literature, YA, and then, of course, adult voices in literature. I wanted to quickly ask Daniel and Dani, why is the term diversity failing us in literature? I'll start. So I think that when you have a term like diversity, it kind of forces you to think about this melting pot in which we all have to get together and feel good and be of different races. And it's a rainbow coalition. And that's actually not what diversity is about. It's a lot more intersectional than that. And it is not just about your race, but your class, and your gender, and your sexuality, and who you are as a person in your individual sense, but also how you belong to many different communities. So I think for me, it's kind of like a way to take a white supremacist idea of diversity, which is like all the brown people in one pot. And it kind of takes away the life of our cultures, our history, and what we're actually writing about. All three of us. It's like we're United Colors of Benetton. It's diversity. But it's so much deeper than that, because our intersections are through writing and through what we're about politically and socially as well. I always feel like diversity is one of those words that rolls so easily off the tongue that you have to be suspicious of it. Because publishing got so excited about diversity so suddenly. And it took writers of color, particularly women of color, really putting themselves on the line and taking risks to make that word matter to the majority, like 80% white publishing industry. So it's like, now it's like, oh yeah, we did diversity. Drop a banner. We good. And we're not good, obviously, because we're still in a state of crisis in so many different ways, both physically and violently and narratively speaking. And so I think we have to be cautious of words that don't address power. And ultimately, diversity is a word that kind of is so open to interpretation that it can mean anything. So we'll be fighting for diversity. And they're like, sure, you can have some diversity. Here's a black bad guy. That's not what we were fighting for. So we have to have the conversation be about power and always have these ideas of race and power and gender and power at the forefront so that they otherwise. History has shown us that white supremacy will just steamroll over any kind of conversation that makes it uncomfortable. And that's the next place we have to go, basically. Absolutely. And putting the onus on the person of color to provide the diversity. So I mean, I'm sure many of you, all of us, have probably been on a panel or an event in which we are the one person who is representing like something that's not of a kind of dominant mainstream identity. So I think that's kind of a lot of pressure exactly to bring that. So there's the tokenizing. And then just the word itself, I interviewed Sonia Monsano, who is Maria from Sesame Street. And she's telling the story. She's a children's book writer too, and she's amazing. And she was talking about going from the Bronx to Manhattan and seeing her first Broadway show and how amazing it was. And she was like, oh my god, it was so diverse. And I was like, whoa. I don't think of Manhattan as diverse at all. But she's coming from the Bronx. So from her perspective, diversity was a whole lot of different kinds of white people when she was a kid. And it's like, when we think about that, that really shows you how diversity is such a meaningless word, right? But it's come to mean of color in a kind of way that's like, people are like, oh, it's nice to have diverse people here. Or you're such a diverse person. What are you talking about? Like, I'm a diverse person. I mean, I am. That's not the point. You know, what does that really mean? What are you saying? So I feel like we have to question that. And I always feel like when I'm fighting for diverse books, I'm fighting for honest books. And the world is quite fucking diverse, no offense. And especially in places like Brooklyn. So when we're having books about New York City or shows or whatever, and it's all white folks, there's a lie inherent to that, that literature has been giving us over and over for centuries. And so it really is a question of honesty to me of just telling it what it is. I know Shonda Rhimes recently, when accepting an award, talked about how much she hated the word diversity and that she thinks that where we use the word diversity, what we should be talking about is inclusivity. And it should be less about having certain people represent all of the other. And it should be more so about gateways. And we should be creating systems that let people in. What do you think about that? About inclusivity versus diversity? Or do you think inclusivity does the same thing where it's like a nice word, but it's still not addressing the power issue and the power dynamics? I think for Hollywood and actors, it's super tough. I mean, I think for us, it's tough as writers. But we're always, I mean, we're consuming culture, television, film. And I think for me, I'm sure for all of you, it's a breath of fresh air to see people of color, to see Shonda Rhimes programming on TV. As much as I might have an issue with something Olivia Pope did, it's like, I want to watch these shows because they're including these characters that I want to see. I want to see that. So I think in that space, yes, I think inclusivity can be a more nuanced way of telling a story on TV or film. But for literature, I mean, there's so many layers you have to get through in terms of access. And you've written so much about access, so it'd be great to hear you talk about it. But I mean, both of us have worked in communities where they're brilliant writers. But the access you have to going from point A to point B to point C, to getting an agent, to getting a publisher, it's such a game that you have to play. I think that's where it's not just about inclusivity being there, it's about creating that pathway and mentorship and support. Like, that's what I think we made more of. But it's hard to kind of find that. I'm sure you have people hitting you up all the time that are like, hey, I wrote this thing and I want you to, you're a mentor to me or someone I admire. And I welcome that because it's like, I understand that you need that. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I like that people are challenging the word and coming up with different words that make sense. You know, I love that she's done that and other directors have been doing that and writers. I don't like the word inclusivity personally because it reminds me of tolerance. Right, right. You know, I feel like if you need a training to figure out how to tolerate me, then we're not gonna be able to build. You know what I mean? Like, we can't be cool. So that, you know, there's so many different ways of playing it. For me, the word is revolution because we can't just be like tiptoeing around and like, oh, I hope this works out better next year. No, motherfucker, like we need, you know, like, we need the whole system has to change. It has to be upheaval because it's really been so jacked up for so long that if you try to, you know, put a bandaid on it or just do a little reform or like hope it works out well, you know, it's just what's gonna happen is the status quo but they're gonna have a brown face on it and that'll be cool. You know what I mean? And that's not cool. So I think it's about that. And that's why we have to look at the statistics of the publishing industry. I love that, you know, Leon Lowe just did that big, I know, yeah. What's it called? Survey. They didn't include agents in that survey, which is, you know, listen, they did amazing work. So I'm not dissing them at all, but agents are the first gatekeeper that writers come up against and probably I would estimate even wider than the 80% white publishing industry, publishing houses. So that, you know, those kinds of things need to be addressed. And when we just say inclusivity, it's kind of like, well, we'll let you in the door, I guess. Yeah, I think it works for television and film in a specific kind of way, because they're like putting a body in an episode. You know, so I think she's really like, she's doing a great job with that, you know? Oh yeah. That's her, her imprint, you know, on culture. I think that's wonderful. Daniel, you brought up the Leon Lowe survey, which found that in publishing, the people who are actually, it seems to be running the show and publishing, which I don't think is a surprise to most people who have experience in publishing, but seem to be a surprise to other people that who's running the show is actually white women. And I was wondering, like, it seems that white women in some cases, especially white women in positions of power, seem to have this sort of like strange blind spot to their privilege. Why do you think that is? Like, why do you think, seriously, like, why do you think that blind spot exists? And like, because there were a lot of people who seemed to be surprised by the fact that, even though if you walk into any, if I visited random house, I walked through there and it's full of white women. Yeah. They're everywhere. So why was it such a shock? People that, that was the case. I feel like you're asking me to get dragged on Twitter. No. But I'll do it. I'll take that bullet. I don't know. You know, it's a lot about this intersectional conversation that we've been having. And I think that when you deal with oppression on one level, it's very easy to miss the fact that other people are dealing with oppression on other levels. And I think that historically, feminism, AKA white feminism, has not been there for people of color, for women of color, for trans people. And we're seeing the fallout of that continue today because like publishing, feminism hasn't really reconciled with that racist history. So that plays out in the everyday events that we see on television, that we experience as writers of color, trying to make it in the industry. And I think that's a part of the story. And it's not an easy conversation to have. And I think that's a part of the story too. The fact that people were surprised speaks to how difficult it is to talk about white female power because they are also facing gender oppression. And to deal with the fact that there's still patriarchy in the publishing industry in a massive way. It's a very sexist industry. But it's still majority white women making the calls. So we have to deal with all those things. And we have to be able to call out sexism in the industry and say that white women in the YA post-apocalyptic world are still ruling the world. And that's not cool. Like white women save the world consistently. Like 99% of the time in post-apocalyptic novels. And we have to be able to address that because there's still a huge problem there as far as representation goes. So I don't know the why. But I know that we do need to be able to talk about it. And that's part of the power and the greatness of that survey is that this conversation has to happen. It does. And it's a microcosm of our world. I mean, I spent so many years in nonprofit. And the model would be a white male director, executive director. Then the first tier of management was all women, mostly white women. And then the second tier of program management was women of color. And it was this very pyramid structure. And I think for me, that was something that I felt really intimidated by. Because I, being a young person in my 20s, was like, is this what I have to aspire to be? Do I have to like, I really think of the term culture fit. And it's a term that I have a huge problem with. Like if any of you have struggled to find a job, which I did after I got laid off a few years ago, I mean, I remember just thinking like, looking at who is employed in these places and spaces. A lot of the internet magazine cool places that you would want to work. And it was always like a senior editor who was a white man. And then it would go down in that same exact pyramid tier with the people of color at the bottom doing like, all these cool think pieces. And it felt like I would be mining my deepest, most interesting thoughts for the sake of someone else to modify my spirit and the freedom that I want to feel when I write. Which I cannot handle. Like I cannot handle someone having a boot on my neck while I'm trying to be free and write what I want to write. So I definitely think like, this structure is endemic in all spaces in which we make culture. It's in music, it's in film, it's in all the arts, it's in everything. And I don't know what the solution is. I don't think any of us know what the solution is, except this idea of creating spaces of power for people that don't normally have that. And I think that's what happened is that there was this culture fit between, hey, you're a young white woman who's got great ideas and you're talented and you have an eye for what's hot out there. We want you to represent our big company that's been around since the 1800s. She did a great job, sure. But very myopic view of who can take on that power and take on that role. And I think it does emulate the white liberal feminist movement versus all these other waves of feminist movements that we all kind of have learned from. Black feminists that was inspiring to me when I was a young person. When I was, okay. Yeah, sorry, no. No, no, go ahead. I'm sorry. When I was sending out Shadow Shaper, I was getting, Shadow Shaper was rejected 40 times by agents and it became four zero. Four zero. Four zero. And it went on to do really well. It was a New York Times notable book. It kicked ass in a lot of ways. But in the process of getting there, it was like just shut down consistently. And every writer faces a lot of rejection. And I think 40 is like in the middle. Marlon James was talking about his 70 rejections for his first book. So that's what it is. What's interesting to me has always been that some of the rejections, some of them agents will just ignore you flat out, right? But sometimes they would just be like, oh my God, I love it, the writing is great. I just don't really identify with the main character. And I'm like, well, the main character's, okay. An Afro-Latina, a 16-year-old girl in Brooklyn. I'm not writing for a white woman in her 30s. That's not my intended audience. And a white woman in her 30s should be able to transpose herself and figure out, but if she can't, that's not my intention for the book. I'm writing to people. I'm trying to write past her and she's not seeing it. So that's a very critical way in which power functions, power and race and gender in some ways function in the industry as far as who's telling who's stories, who lives, who dies, who tells your story, who lets you tell your story when you finally get a chance to tell it. And these things really matter. And I think a lot about, there was an article in The New Yorker recently about, I can't remember her name, but the woman who wrote The Price of Salt, which they just made the movie out of. Yeah, yeah. I think it was Shapiro. Shapiro, yes. They were talking about how in the Pope, there was a period where like lesbian pulps were a big deal. Way in like back in the 50s, like in 60s before, that was the only way you could show up. You could have a lesbian character show up in literature. And the editors would really lean on the writers, basically saying that the main character has to either come, become straight or die or just live in total misery and degradation. So these were editorial notes coming down from the top of the publishing world, making sure that society would have a negative understanding of homosexuality in a very clear way. And mind you, of course, the covers were very luscious and for men, for straight men specifically. So I think we have to understand that publishing is not necessarily our friend. And like, I know we've been saying that, but I think there's like, or even art in general, we have to rid ourselves of this kind of naive idea of art being for the people and by the people and about the people when there's these industries in place that are very intentionally and very openly giving us messages about what it means to be an other or a person of color or a queer person and that there are consequences to that and that you will suffer if that's your identity. We have to check that and understand that it's not just about like, oh, you know, I hope it works out or it's just an editorial note. No, this is about life and death. Okay. Yeah, go ahead, give it a clap for that. Not too much, you'll get a big head. He will. That's the reason I'm the hat on, so. That's why he wears the hat. Wow, okay, going from there, one of the things that you guys have both brought up is tokenism in a certain way in industries and also in writing. But in your books, you seem to avoid tokenism, both of you, by writing community more than you just write other characters. Like these characters are definitely probably in society considered the other, but in their, sorry, but in their worlds inside the books, they are not the other for the most part, or at least not the way the world would think of them as the other. I don't walk around feeling like the other, I gotta say, I walk around feeling like I'm seven feet tall and have so much to bring to the world. So when I look at all these people here, all of these friends and unfamiliar faces, I mean, this is a community of diverse peoples that are here to talk about this stuff. So I feel like this was the space that I was writing to and writing from, and the book that I've written is very much this area of Brooklyn, and 10 years ago, so now it's like a snapshot of something 10 years ago, but it's, because I started it 10 years ago. And I wonder like, when I read like a Goodreads review when I'm kind of like midnight looking on Goodreads, I'm like, who are these idiots on Goodreads? I don't know what you're talking about. Sorry, you're not idiots if you use Goodreads, but. But some people will be like, this was a multicultural book about Muslims in America. And I was like, really? Like that's how you sum it up, and it is. I'm not even saying they're not right. Just like your book is about a young Afro-Latina girl in an urban environment, sure. Right. But. It's about so much more than that. I know! Exactly. So I'm just, I feel like those words are things that people kind of use to pat themselves on the back for knowledge that they might have, but that is not knowledge. That is just one facet of something that is so infinite and beyond what you could describe. And for me, another thing that I think about is like, oh, you have so many multicultural relationships in this book. And I'm like, again, look at us here. Like, we have multicultural relationships, you know? I could go on a date with you, and it's not gonna be like, look at us in our multicultural relationship, you know? Like, that's not. That's a white framework. It is a white framework. So I'm not writing in that framework. Like, I'm writing about the dude that has an apothecary, and his best friend is the barber who uses his shea butter salve for his frickin' clients, and his daughter who goes to school with this hot nerd who skateboards, and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. And it's like, they don't write about, like, Catcher and the Ra, and they're like, a white boy with angst navigates New York City. No, like, no one ever says that shit. And then I also think, like, for a publisher's weekly, you know, there, like, any basic review out there in any of those magazines, they're like a paragraph tops, right? Right, right. Or like, you know, a hundred words or something. And like, you're gonna spend 15 of those words talking about how diverse my book is. You know, like, it's a problem to me. And I understand that we are still in a place where we need to signify to people when a book is actually diverse. So I have really mixed feelings about it. You know, like, I want people to know that I have, you know, lots of different kinds of characters in there, because that matters, because I want people who are looking for that to find my book. But I'm also like, man, you could have really spent that sentence talking about my craft, which I think is on point as fuck. But you are busy talking about how I have brown people in my book. And I'm like. Doc, you're like, Doc, that's what I wrote, because that's what I want to write about. And then, yeah, well, all that. I also think that there's books and stories that spend the entire time and then get to the end and what they've accomplished is proving the humanity of a brown person or a black person. And then there's books that take that for a given. And I'm not interested in a book, you know, taking, spending 300 pages to prove to me that I exist or matter. Like, that's not something that in 2016 we should have to, you know, make a project of. And apparently we do. So, you know, that's important. I guess that there is some work out there that shows, you know, whatever. But I just believe that if books start from the basic fact of our humanity and then move forward from there, we can get so much done. And I'll always, I keep thinking recently just about how much great books need to multitask and be able to like, you know, deal with like a number of different stuff going on. Because, you know, for Sierra, right, like she has to fight zombies, but she's still a black girl in Brooklyn and she's still getting street harassed and gentrified out and everything else. And she can't like stop fighting the zombies because she has to deal with that. She has to do them both at the same time. And books have to do that too, especially when they're dealing with embattled, you know, identities, which is what we are. So, you know, I feel like that makes literature better because there's so many layers going on in this just basic life and then all the different relationships we have and whatever. But the other thing I'll say with that is that I found it interesting that a couple of white reviewers will, when I say I found it interesting, I really mean, that's so stupid. But I've noticed that some white reviewers will sort of assume whiteness in certain characters in my books, which no other person ever, you know, would assume. Because it's very clear, like to me, and I think to most people- Based on name or- Based on the fact that it doesn't say that they're of color. Because our default is whiteness and most writers will just point out when a character is black or brown, but if a character is white, they never say there's white dude. But in my books, I always say when a character is white, I'll say this white dude walked into the room, whatever, you know, which is on the one hand just true because it's sort of how we speak. And on the other hand, it's like, well, I'm tired of the default being whiteness. So I don't always call it out when a character is of color, but it's pretty self-evident if you are paying attention. So it's fascinating to see how that's red in different ways and, you know, different reviews or good-reads reviewers, no offense. We'll be like, oh, you know, like this multi-racial relationship between two black characters. And I'm like, which, well, how is that, what's just happening? All these different things. So I don't know. All I know is like, I know who I'm talking to and knowing that makes the writing process a process of love. And, you know, so when the trolls come, I can laugh. Yep, yep, totally. When you talk about starting a story from the beginning with the understanding that brown people are essentially human, why do you think so many, because I hear quite often from white writers that, well, I have an idea, or I want to try something, but I'm too scared to try because I might get it wrong? To write a character of color. To write a character of color or to just write someone who's different, a different gender, writing someone who identifies differently as far as like sexual, sexuality. It's like so many people say, I'm just scared to do it. I'm scared to get it wrong. And, you know, I get it, yeah. Right, and it's, I mean, it is scary, but it seems to me like writers of color or specifically you two in your books write very eloquently about people who you are not and who you, you know, don't share identifying characteristics with. Was it, would you say it was hard for you or at any point did you stop and go, can I write about this person who is so different from me? Oh, sure. And language towards you is so important. Words mean different things to different people. And, you know, like, I feel like for me it was very hard to kind of not do it because it's like if you're saying a character is a best friend of a character to not let him have a story in your book is not something I wanted to do. But for me, the way that I wanted to connect the story of my main character Anwar with his best friend, Bik, is that Anwar moves to Bed-Stuy in the 80s when it's a totally different world and he identifies with this kind of torn down, violent, very intensely alienating space that his friend also found himself at that same exact time period. Because he's coming from Bangladesh where the country was torn down by war and bloodshed. So I feel like for me, the way that I feel safe doing it is kind of connecting whatever my main character and the other character in conversation in the book, how they connect is through these very human, quote unquote universal realities of loving and loss and death and the struggle to live. I mean, I don't think that I would tell a white writer who wanted to write about a black character that they shouldn't do a lot of research and talk to a lot of people and have black readers read their book and I would say yes, have a lot of different readers read your book because you don't wanna walk away with something in which your character is a caricature rather than a character. And I think that is the fine line is that if you are not opening up your heart to every possible thing that this person can live through, then you are going to write a caricature. You are gonna write some magical person who breaks it down and tells you your advice, because they're the one black person in your book. Like that's something we see in movies all the time and in books like that. That's the help, which is a troubling movie. And to not to say that someone like Viola Davis shouldn't get an Oscar for a movie like that because she can act her ass off. But to say that that is the function and role of a black character in a largely white book. And that book's not even a largely white book. It's very half and half, but they function as the people that know all the secrets and have wisdom and tell you you're pretty when you're not or whatever. Like that's not okay, you know? Like that is not okay. And I feel like there needs to be a checks and balance system with that. Because if I was reading that book as a friend, I'd be like, you need to rethink everything about how these people are functioning in your damn book. Like they are playing a caricature of a person, not a real person, right? Yeah, I mean, it's like sometimes the answer is no. And I feel like that's hard for people to take in. So you don't think they can't? What? You don't think, you said the answer is no. I'm saying that sometimes, like to answer your question directly, like I did ask myself, I ask myself constantly when I'm writing characters who aren't me and you have to ask yourself, but I think when you're doing it, not even, but as you're doing it, you need to do it in a way where you're actually open to the possibility that it might not be for you to tell that story. And that might be a function of where you're at as a writer or a human being and you wanna get there. And I think there's a way of approaching that where you're like, there was a writer, a YA writer a couple of year or two ago who said like, you know, who's asked why he doesn't write a lot of women. And he was like, well, I just don't understand women that well. And, you know, rightfully, he got kind of dragged because that's, you know, first of all, half the population of the world. Second of all, you've had, you've written now like however, right, thank you, however many books, because he was on his like eighth book or something and award winning and everything else, you know, what's really going on? Like where do you have to be in your life to just be able to have a female character that's human. So there's that. But I also think it's important to be honest about where you're at. And I think if you're honest and it's really a process where you're like trying to grow, then I think that's a very different situation. When I turned in the stories for Salsana Turner, my editor was like, you know, this is a sausage party right here. And yeah, and that was a great edit. And I did that because I didn't feel ready to write female characters yet. Cause I was just, there was my first book, my first set of short stories, just trying to find my voice. And my voice was literally my voice, you know, like me writing from the stuff that happened to me on the ambulance. I actually used to sit right there on an ambulance. That's so cool. Which is so crazy. Yeah. Anyway. You finally made it inside that. Inside that. Yeah, I made it. Anyway. Yeah, so, you know, that was just me finding my voice. I would write the stories from the ambulance on a blog. And then one day, and it was really easy for me. And then one day I was like, if I just made shit up, it would be fiction. Yes! I just started writing fiction. And then, so that was me, you know? And then I turned in those stories and she was like, you know, you have no women in this book, really. And I was like, shit, that's true. So, thank God she said that. And I pushed myself as a writer and I grew and I wrote, you know, what to me were some of the way better stories in that collection. Because I pushed myself to write them. And I learned. And I'm still in that place where I'm trying to figure that out and I'm writing trans characters and trying to figure out how. And I think it's an ongoing process. But I think you also have to be able to be like, yo, I'm not the one right now. And I hope I can be one day and I'll work to get there, but I don't know. But ultimately, you know, I love what you said about research because it is research and it's more than that, which is what you planned. Yeah, and living people live. I mean, I feel like I have this background that was a lot of studying, acting and theater. We both did that. And it's not like you're playing a part. You're living. Right. You're living. And I feel like writing, good writing is the same thing. Like you enter it and you are living it. And you are letting it live and you're letting a character live. I totally agree with you that sometimes it might not be possible to go there. Right. It might be an insurmountable thing that you cannot actually penetrate or get through. And I don't know that that's a static thing for someone. It's also the... You wrote the women character into, and Shadow Shaper, the main character, the protagonist is a young woman. And she's right. And I'm not Afro-Latina. And that was something that I had to really be conscious of checking my own privilege at and thinking about ways that the writer protects themselves on the page. You know what I mean? Because a lot of the pitfalls I think we see when people of power are writing, people with different kinds of power, less power than them, racial power for instance, is that we will protect ourselves and we will try to make ourselves seem like not a part of the big tragedy of the world when we are. And men do the same thing. Sis men particularly will do this thing where we're just like in the book and we'll have all the answers and we don't need directions. And we save the world even though we're a bungling asshole. You know, like how does that happen? And it's trash and it's bad writing and it's cliched. That's not real life. It's not real life, right. So it's about checking ourselves and beyond the research of just the facts of someone, understanding the history of the representation and the failures that have happened, ongoing. And then it's like, it's soul work. And that's where I think writing programs typically really fail writers because they don't wanna talk about privilege. And you can't write other people if you're not thinking about who you are and understanding where you fit onto this matrix of power and understand your own privilege. But they don't wanna have that conversation at MFA programs. No, and you'll still get a syllabus that's only white writers on that syllabus, which I had multiple times. Ma'am, at Brooklyn College. How do you personally in your writing or in different actions, both of you have written really fantastic non-fiction essays, just by the fact that your books are fiction. You both have written essays that are really great and that I love. But you both are pretty active in pushing back in your lives and not just in your writing against exactly what you're talking about, which is the teachers that are only teaching white writers or only teaching male writers or whatever. How do you continue that? At this point, is it just talking? Is it art making as well? Like obviously your art is already there, but do you feel like there is a level beyond what you're already doing? A lot of people are dying right now and it's a really violent time right now. I mean, it always has been, but we have witnesses because of video and I cannot stay shut up if I feel there is injustice in some space. There is no, you are not an artist of today if you cannot articulate that. Like that's just how I feel about every art, any art that I'm consuming right now. It doesn't have to, I think this is a huge debate in an MFA program and in art in general, does it have to mean something? Is it political? Does it, isn't that taking away from what art is? And I think for Daniel and myself, I mean I met him when we were in our early 20s working in a non-profit organization, community space in Bushwick teaching theater and doing youth organizing and he was an EMT and I was like putting my heart and soul into that work. I wasn't even a writer at that point. I didn't even call myself a writer. Like I was like aspiring deep in my deep heart to be a writer, you know what I mean? That was a secret that I would not admit to myself. So for me, my background is not even bleeding my heart on the page. That's a new thing for me. My background is doing work in service of people that are surviving day in and day out. Myself included, whether it's trauma within family, trauma in relationship, trauma in community, trauma by the police. I mean we are all reckoning with that trauma and I definitely cannot ever silence myself when it comes to that and I will push really hard back if I am asked to change or silence that part of me and I have been asked to tone things down and not be angry. I think we've all been told, you know, you're so angry. You're so angry. You're so, it's like you're being racist and you're being angry now. And it's like, no, that's not the definition of anger or racism so we're having an issue with what words mean at this point. You know, so for me it's like, I cannot imagine, I think nonfiction can get really heavy sometimes so the fiction is where I can play. Which is what you were talking about. It's like you're an EMT and you're like, oh I can write fiction and this is gonna be way more fun. I completely agree with that. I want to play as a writer. But nonfiction is where I can talk about my life, my survivorship, my family, my love for, you know, the community that I'm building continually, you know, and we're on the internet. I mean, hello, we have like huge debates on the internet now, you know. It's like a really powerful place to be a writer. So to not be a part of that, I don't know if that's an option right now. Like you don't have to be a part of it but I think it is very much a powerful way to talk about injustice and freedom. Yeah, I agree. When I was in college, I really wanted to actually be an essay writer. I loved Baldwin, Eduardo Galliano, Aaron D'Arty Roy. You know, those were people that like, just like shook my whole world up because they were telling the truth about stuff that I was just beginning to recognize to be true. And I was like, oh my God, like you can do that. And you know, and it's just this level of honesty that I admired so much on the page. And so that was kind of where I was coming from. And then I found fantasy again, which I had loved when I was a kid. And then that, you know, became my true heart. And then I ended up being really pissed about stuff and having to write essays. But I, you know, like I honestly don't want to write essays that much. I love writing nonfiction but I'd really rather just write, you know, some dumb road trip story about some shit that happened when I was 18 and tell a funny story. But I get really mad. And I don't, exactly what you said. You know, I don't feel like this is a time where we really have the luxury of being able to be silent about stuff because it is such a crisis period ongoing. And so, you know, and when I started like shopping, shadow shape around, when I first got into publishing, diversity was not cool yet. And, you know, it wasn't like, it was the same makeup of the industry but they had no interest or any kind of sense. And the going, any kind of sense that like you could sell a book with a brown person on the cover or a black person on the cover. And the going like knowledge was that, you know, we don't read. That was the shit that people were saying. And they're still saying it, but now they get smacked on Twitter when they say it because of movement building and because of the work that we have done. And I was part of that work early on because I knew that the industry was what it was. And I knew that if my books were gonna ever get out there in any way, that needed to change. So some of it was literally self-preservation. Like I was very aware that I was like trying to clear the way for my own work and my friend's work while we were, you know, a part of those conversations. And while I was writing those essays, and you know, it wasn't a moment when most people would tell you in your career that you're supposed to be a loudmouth online. Because the going, you know, the going like. I'm gonna learn from you, Dan. The growing wisdom is like, you know, shut up and then get to the top and then be loud or whatever. You know, they'll just say all kinds of shit. But I didn't honestly wanna work with someone that would have a problem with the stuff I was saying. So in some ways, I used it to filter out, you know, the kind of people that I wanted to work with and didn't wanna work with. And sometimes I, you know, we were just talking about leaving agents. I left an agent that partly was because of incompetence and partly was because of communication and partly was because of they had no idea how to deal with characters of color on the page and what that meant and understand power. And sometimes you have to walk away. And, you know, it was a terrible moment in my career to do that. I had no books out and I was just like this random little person writing stories, right? I was still a writer, but I hadn't, you know, no career. So it was the best thing I ever did. But it's, you know, no one's gonna give you that advice, I would. But most people aren't gonna be like, yeah, you should walk away because that's a trash situation. You have to. You have to, yeah. Daniel, earlier you talked about the word revolution in place of diversity. What does revolution look like in literature? That's such a great question. Yeah, great question. Shit. I don't know what this is. Go ahead, Daniel. I wasn't ready. Well, I'll say this. Like I used to think of revolution as just like, I mean, I think when I was a kid I thought it was really cool. But it's always just a really, been a really distant concept, right? It was like something that happened in ancient American history or something that happened in Star Wars. And that's cool. But then it was like something that is in car ads more than anything else. So I really became disenchanted with the word as great as much as I loved like revolutionary writers and the idea of it, it felt dirty in my mouth to say revolution because it's a Chevrolet ad, you know, or whatever, or like a Macintosh. And I love Macs, but that's not the point. Like, so you know, I distrusted it for a long time. And I would say that really changed in the past two years of the Black Lives Matter movement coming along and showing us what revolution can really look like. And, you know, being in the streets and being online, because it happened everywhere, you know, it wasn't just in the streets, it was all across America, you know, all across the stratosphere and different layers and in the world, I feel like that kind of gave us all permission to be revolutionaries again in a different way and understand revolution in a lot of different nuances and meanings and challenges. And I think that it really affected, and we're still seeing how it's affecting the conversation in publishing. And I don't know the answer to what you're saying, I know that when I think about victory, like I think about the writers of color that I work with and mentor and just being able to, I'm gonna get emotional, mother fuck. Just being able to send them out into publishing and not have a conversation with them where I'm like, okay, here's how you're gonna have to deal with it when, you know, some white person tries to check your conversation about characters of color. Here's how to deal with the cover art situation. And here's like, I don't wanna have to coach anybody about the complexities of dealing with the all white industry as a writer of color. When I don't have to do that, you know, we want. But on the way there, there are a lot of mini revolutions that happen every single day. So for me, Publishing Shadow Shaper was a revolution because that cover, first of all, proudly black girl on the cover with her fro out and the content, which is like a book that every single word, all my books are books where every single word I stand by and I didn't go into publishing expecting to be able to publish books where I could talk, you know, trash about gentrification and cultural appropriation and white culture and everything else. I figured that would get edited out but I put it in there anyway to see and lo and behold, I found some cool white people in publishing and we got it through. So that's a revolution, but it's not enough to have like a couple cool people in the mix. It really has to, that's why it has to be a change like that. So, you know, like I try to imagine what the bookshelf would look like if we are where we need to be and it's so fucking beautiful and it's so different and it looks so much more like what happens when you look literally outside this window and so that's a revolution, you know? But I don't think it has to be like a all or nothing type of deal. Like I think we're always doing it. You know, us being on the stage right here is revolutionary in its own right if we use it right and if we're honest about what, you know, our process and our struggle. You just brought up mentors, which I think particular for marginalized people who want to enter an industry, well really any industry, mentorship is not just, like, it's hard to say necessary because I know some people have done okay without it but I personally don't understand how. Like I don't know how that happens. But some people, I feel like have sort of just been guided by voices who are writing, you know? Because that's the closest they can get to someone who's working in the industry, work like yours, work like yours. So I'm wondering for you, who are some of the writers who you feel like right now are doing revolutionary work? Kiese Lehmann, for sure. Oh, absolutely. He's my mentor. Yeah, I'm the first. Oh, Kiese Lehmann. Have you guys read his book? His books? Yes. Okay. Absolutely. I mean, I had him in school when I was 18 to 22 years old, you know, so and I didn't, we were both very young then, so I didn't realize I was in the presence of revolution, right, but I guess kind of connecting to what you were just talking about, I mean, the heart of all of that is this abiding love and I think that that is where I feel very indebted to him for that lesson of love and survival, like not just survivorship in the context of violence, but actually thriving, not just surviving, but thriving and loving. And I think like what I'm writing, a lot of people are like, oh, so many wishes have been fulfilled in this. This is like something positive. I'm like, yes, because realism has historically been very deadly for us. So to me, mentorship has taught me that levity and laughter and spaces of love are just as, if not more revolutionary than, you know, reckoning with violence or reckoning with some trauma. Like, I think they're both very simultaneous and I think with QSA's work, he's reckoning with all of those things, trauma, survivorship, love, and ultimately revolution. So for me, he's definitely someone that I will always read anything he writes for as long as I live, so. That's awesome. Before I answer that, let me shout out Vona because I'm teaching there. Oh, you are. Yeah, I'm teaching there this summer. It's a really dope program. If you're a writer of color, apply the deadlines March 15th. But yes. Did you do it? What? Did you do Vona? I did it. Yeah, me too. It was awesome. That's so cool. It's an amazing program and it really, but it really does answer that question of like, it provides mentorship and more than that even, it provides community, which I think is kind of an aspect of mentorship that gets lost a lot. And which is sometimes kind of also mistaken for networking, but it's very different, right? Like we're taught to network in those little like douchey writer seminars and shit. But what is that? You know, like trying to find people that you can climb, but community is a deep and important thing, especially like you said, for writers of color. And then specifically, Sherri Renee Thomas who edited The Dark Matter Anthology, who's a genius. She taught a short story class that I took really early on in my career and really looked out for me and just, you know, took me under her wing. And Tanana Rivedu taught at the MFA program and she's a genius too. And she really like looked after me in amazing ways. And these are people that had the conversation with me that I just described having with the people that I mentor, you know, to, you know, who are honest enough and real enough to be like, look, here's some of the shit that I went through that you're probably going to go through, but hopefully less. And, you know, and then they cheer me on when I'm loud, you know, and like they, and they're excited, you know, when I win and I'm excited when they win and that's community, you know what I mean? And then I feel like there's another echelon of like archangels that I always think of as my mentor, even if they don't know it, you know, like Octavia Butler and Juno Diaz, you know, Walter Mosley is another who I met like a couple of weeks ago. Whoa, really? Yeah, we had breakfast and I feel like my whole life just exploded right in that moment. I know it was really, it was really deep because his book, 60s You Pieces is definitely one of the reasons that I write. It's a book that I inhaled in the space of like a night, literally didn't put it down. And, you know, he just changed the game for me. And I asked him like, you know, I was like, how do you deal with the kind of shit that goes on in the industry and in Hollywood because he's moving that direction too and just, you know, with the fakeness and with the white supremacy and with the bullshit. And he took a sip of coffee and looked at me and he was like, I really don't give a fuck what people think about me. Good. And I was like, shh. I mean, and you know, I aspire to that. I'm not quite there yet. But he's just been, he's been such a powerful voice and so loud and so awesome and unfiltered for so long. And I told him like, cause I interviewed him and I was like, you know, we're having this conversation now in an industry-wide level that you've been having for like 30 years. Like you've been talking about this. So I feel like we're catching up to you. And, you know, that's what I aspire to. Well, I really, really hate for this to come to an end, but we are going to do a Q and A. So if we could get just a really quick round of applause for these two, because they're amazing. And you and Ashley. Ashley is an amazing fighter, by the way. If you don't know Ashley's work, get your life together. Get your life together. She's incredible. I don't write, both of my hands are broken. Don't lie. Ashley's amazing, read her stuff. You can actually just come up to the mic here if you have any quick, well, we already have one. Yay. So please continue to step up. As you please. Hi, my name is Amber. I'm a marketing professor at St. John's University. I work at St. John's. Oh, yeah. Wow, I'm in Tobin. I just wanted to say, first of all, thank you, Conrad. Thank you for writing Shadow Shapers and pushing for it. When Sandra Bland lost her life so unjustly, I was looking, I was in Barnes and Noble looking for something to read that could really just make me feel a little better about life. And I saw Shadow Shapers. I saw the black woman with the big hair and it was teen fiction, but I was like, I think I need this. And it was a very empowering read. I'm not from New York, but I read the book and I felt like it was my students in my classroom on the train and it just felt very powerful and real to me, so thank you for that. Thank you so much. I never, I won't look at Bed-Stuy the same then. And then also I appreciate what you said about The Help. I read that book and I felt so lost when it came to the black characters. I saw the movie and it felt like the movie was better because I knew it was the first time that black people were actually involved in telling the story, at least as actors. But I struggled because the character was better than the writer. The character actually interviewed women of color in order to tell a story, but the actual author didn't. So that was troubling to me. So in general, I just wanna say thank you. Thank you for what you do and what you bring. It's really gratifying to people like me who just love books and just like to see more characters who seem like people that I know and that kind of thing, so. Thank you. That was really sweet. That was beautiful. Yeah, thanks. Whenever I do Q&As, I always tell people like it's supposed to be a Q, not an A, but that was like a really great example of an A that was cool. Cool A. How you doing? Hi, how are you? I came kinda late, I just happened to walk in. I like what I saw was going on. But just a question, a word of advice for anybody that's just starting to write, not necessarily looking to become an author. Well, basically myself, I just like to be creative. I came with an idea and I literally just started putting together an outline and I'm at the point where I'm putting chapters together, you know? And I really wanna stay consistent, but you know, it's times where I don't really like to rush things and stuff like that because like I said, I'm creative. I like to do a lot of different pieces of art. But in terms of putting together the whole, I guess, production of your book, for anybody that's looking to do that, what things would you say are the most, the wisest thing to do or to prepare for and also to avoid doing it in writing your book? I'll say, I'm really glad you're creating. That's awesome. Thank you. Stay on it. I would say try to delete shame from your process as much as you can because it's very easy, especially right as a color, to take in that message that we are not enough, that we're less than, that our stories don't matter, that our lives don't matter, that we're never gonna get published anyway. All that shit, you have to work actively to delete that from your mind and also from your body when you sit down to write because it's so easy to take it in and internalize it and carry it with you and then you write like this and you're like, ah, you know, like the Hunchback of Notre Dame and like it's not healthy, it's bad for process. Yeah, that's what I was thinking of. Yeah, right, yeah, you don't want that. So like- We won't avoid that in general. And along with that, it means you need to honor your process. Definitely. So you might not write every day and that's fine. So if you didn't write on Tuesday, you can't sit down on Wednesday and be like, oh, shh, shh, I can't believe I didn't write. Yeah, no guilt. Like that's not healthy, you can't do that. But you do have to write consistently and write a lot to make it. And then I would also say like, check out Whatpad and stuff like that where it's an online community of like writers and there's a lot of people commenting on stuff. I don't do it, I just sign up for it but a lot of my students do it and they really love it because they can get like their work out there and it's really hard to steal work off it and it's a community, you know, that's what you need. So like really that, but in general just be a part of community. You know, find other creators, especially creators of color, talk to writers, like get a writing group together, that kind of thing so that you have people you're checking in with that are gonna hold you accountable so you do get the work done and you know, you do it. That's so interesting. I was gonna give him the exact opposite advice. That's good though. You're gonna tell him to write every day. No. Oh, hell no, I do not. I am a creator too. And if anyone knows me, you know, I do like 3,000 different things and then half of them are always undone forever. So I feel like I feel who you are right now. You know, you're like, I made this hat, I made a song, I DJed last night. Like you're like that guy, right? So for my word of the dilettante, you know, cause that's me, I was gonna say, you have to understand how it feels to be alone. Cause it's so hard to be alone. And you have to sit in your own shitty thoughts and your own sadness and your own melancholy and cry and be alone with your words. And you might end up writing like this at some point, but you have to be okay with solitude and being alone. Because that's the thing, we always wanna kick it with somebody, be with our friends and make art. And writing is one of the least social crafts that you can undertake. Yeah, I realize that. It's like painting a lot of great art in this museum. Very hard on the body and it's very alone. And I just wanna say like, I completely think community is important, that solitude also is just as important. Cause that's the only way things get done. No, no, I don't wanna fight you on that. I will say, I agree with you and yes, be alone. No, I don't think they're opposite things. They're not opposite things. I'm just saying like, I'm like, don't wanna do a writing date with anyone. Like I'm like never down for a writing date. Let me say this, let me say this to you though. Don't ever ask me to write on a date. But I do feel like, this is like the extreme of what you're talking about. I agree, you have to be alone and you have to be able to sit in your silence and honor your sadness as well as your process. But, there's a mythology of writers as like the solitary dude in the woods who's drinking jack and like, I like that dude in the woods. I like that. That's not healthy. You know what I mean? I like it. Okay, that's good for you. I'm literally in between ECP folks. I've been working on a book for four or five years. Okay. And... This poor guy's confused now. I would say, I would say that. I'll take it as balance, balance, balance. Without balance. I'll say balance. Everybody does it differently. Like my mentor, my friend and mentor, Roxane Gay is an insomniac. And if you gave her a good month, she could write you a book. You know what I mean? Like, because that's just her process. She just starts writing and she keeps going. She's right. But I could never do something like that. Like it just wouldn't work. Everybody writes a book differently. I think to me, the best advice I ever got was just finish it. Yeah. One draft. Just finish it. If you can get one draft, and it can be as shitty and as terrible, like because you always have to go back in and edit anyway. No one's ever written a perfect first draft. It does not exist. So you get that first draft out and then think about who you are as an editor and less about who you are as a first draft. Right, okay. You won that round. And do it, are you a visual artist? I definitely am. Yeah, so for me what I did with my first draft, or probably not my first draft, like fifth draft, is I printed it all out. I took a notebook and then I glued it in the way that I wanted to tell the story and it became this like art project. And then I ended up with this like scrapbook. I think a lot of people actually do that. Post-its of different colors. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Always have a journal with you, you know that. I'm like the worst. I always have to like write a note in my iPhone that works too. Just do all that shit and it's gonna add up to something. But you have to use your knowledge the way that you feel good about art, you know? So if you're a visual artist, it's gonna be hard to sit at a computer, eight hours a day or whatever. You're not gonna do that. So make it visual, make it artistic. Maybe draw the scene that you're working at. Like just do kind of like things that stir your creative process. Absolutely. And one more question. Is it possible I can get you guys emails or something so we can just touch? Cause I would love to have some guidance throughout this process. If you can find me and I'm easy to find, then you can have my email. All right, that's not kind of stalker-ish. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm easy to find though, on the internet. We'll be there on the graph table. Yeah, we'll be there, go and find us, yeah. Anyone else have a question? There's another question. Drew. Hi guys, thank you. Hi, I'm coming. I'll try to make this quick, but I'm not a writer. I wouldn't really call myself one. We were all about essays in college and things like that. And when I think about trying to find a voice, trying to be as true to myself as an Asian American, as a Filipina American when I'm writing about my experiences, I sometimes realize that there is another kind of censorship that bubbles up inside me that I didn't expect, which comes from a kind of loyalty to your heritage, a kind of maybe internalized shame that one feels, you can't write about certain things because it's taboo where your parents came from or where your family comes from. I'd love to know if either of you guys had to grapple with something like that. Ooh, girl. That's my mom right there. I'm just saying, I understand what you're talking about. But for Shadow Shaper, a really pivotal moment in the process of it came when I realized that there's a grandfather character who for many, many drafts was just that kindly old magical Latino in the corner who just had good advice and he had a stroke so he was out of it or whatever. It was just comical, but he had also kept a huge secret from the main character. And I had that in there and I thought it was a cool moment, but really it had so much deeper implications because it was really about patriarchy and the fact that he didn't trust her as a girl to carry on this magical legacy. And stepping back, I don't know if I did it consciously kind of downplayed it, but when I stepped back from it and realized that that moment where she finds that out and the sense of betrayal that she had really mattered. And then I let it spread throughout the plot and really matter in the narrative more. I think that the story came to life a lot more and I did think a lot about it because there is a long history of machismo being represented very unfairly and unclear from white people about Latino culture, which isn't to say that it doesn't exist. It's to say that in representations of Latino culture by white folks, it's often done just to highlight the machismo and nothing else. So I was wary of writing that stereotype, but I also do acknowledge that there's truth in it and that patriarchy is very real in our culture and that that's something that I especially as a male cis male have to acknowledge and deal with in the text. So I've far with myself about it, not a lot, but ultimately it's about telling the truth and also knowing that like we've been talking about, I came from a place of deep love. You can't read that book and be like, this dude doesn't love his people. This is a book that's a love letter to my people, to people of color in New York, to Latinos, whatever. So it's about like, if you're truly coming from that place, the rest of it will balance it out. I mean, you have to critique things you love, otherwise, you know, what's really going on? So it was about coming from there, I think. I'm writing a memoir about my relationship with my father who's in prison and has been since I was six months old and my mom hates it. She hates that I'm writing this book. I mean, my mom never told me what my father was in prison for. We haven't talked about it to this day. She knows that I know and we talk around it, but she will not address it with me. And I'm writing like a whole book about it, you know? So yeah, I mean, my siblings, you know, my brother is kind of worried because I have one brother who shares the same father. My mom found out she was pregnant after my dad was in prison with my brother and he doesn't know how he feels about me writing about it. And it really took a really long time for me to get comfortable with the idea that yes, these people are part of my story, but it's still my story. And it's still mine to tell and it's still something that I own. And the best thing I can do for my family when writing this book is just to write a good book and writing a good book means writing a fair book in a certain way. Turning people into heroes or villains is not writing a true or fair book. So the gift I can give to my family in writing this book, even though they very, very, very much don't want me to write it, is to at least be fair and to try to be as balanced as possible and tell the story the way I remember it and memory is not perfect, but the least I can do, if I'm gonna tell it from memory and if I'm going to, you know, put a few people's business out on Front Street, the least I can do is be fair. So I think if you can be fair to where you come from, if you can be fair to your family, then you can write a good book and you can still tell your story. And I personally think in the end, most people that I know, I don't know anybody who's written a memoir who doesn't talk to their family anymore, personally. I'm sure there are people out there who that's happened to. But don't talk anymore to their family. Who don't talk to their families anymore after a memoir who, like their families are just devastated. Write a good book if you're gonna write. I feel like, hi. I feel like, I mean, I bring up that my mom is here, my family's here, but I was really afraid and that idea of shame that Daniel brought up too. It's like shame and fear for talking about what you've been through or who you are or what you think about and indicting maybe people in your life and your family or just your community or what you witness and observe. But my mom loved my book and she read it and she was really like, I'm really proud of you and I love your book. And that can also happen like after you get to the end of that. It's not about the truth in fiction necessarily cause we're crafting the truth. In a memoir you're abiding by a truth, whatever your truth is, it's many truths. It's perception of truth. So the idea of truth is where you kind of have to divorce yourself when you start writing or you're a photographer, you know, when you're taking a photo. Is that the truth? It's not the truth. It's just a moment and it passes and it goes on to another truth. And that's really like, I feel like that you can transcend these truths of culture because it's not real, it's not reality, you know? That is not your truth. You are who you are because of so many different people but to write something that might indict where you come from is another slice of what that truth is. And I think that like there are people who will read that and be like, God damn, she got what I was feeling. Which I've gotten that wonderful feedback from other Bangladeshi young people that had never read a character like that because they were reading Indian characters. I mean, it's a different story, you know? So it's like that, those are the things that you have to really understand is that you're not abiding by one version of the truth when you're writing. Thank you guys so much. Thanks. Hey. Hi, sorry, this will be short. My name is Rebecca and I was wondering how you ended up, oh all of you, ended up deciding on or, well, you're writing memoir. So, deciding on like fiction because, you know, a lot of what drives you to write is reading your own experiences and your voice. But then you also don't want to make all the characters about yourself and really just a reflection of yourself. And so how do you balance telling your story but also being able to move outside of yourself? I feel like fiction found me when I was in first or second grade. I've been writing like little books since I was really little and I'm an imaginative person who wishes I lived in an imaginary world since I was a very little person. So I feel like for me that was like, you know, the starting point, you know, as a young person but I think when each character is being written and a lot of writers will say like they're from my imagination but some people will also say they're all parts of me that are like dialed up and like taking little pieces that I've observed and dialing it up, making the stakes really high, creating conflict, like any good story or drama is. You know, it's dialing up these relationships to kind of really put a light on something that reveals something deeper about human nature. Which I think that's the project that we're undertaking is to reveal human nature. I mean, you're writing a memoir but in that you are constructing and stitching a story that you weren't even told. So if you weren't told a story, you're basically starting from scratch on a story. That's such an important project, you know, like for Shadow Shaper, getting into the character that you got into, that's not who you are, you know, for my characters it's like they're young people, there's a middle-aged Bangla the Shiman. I mean, these are people that like I know but they are who they are because that's what a character is. Again, it's like a life that is being lived in a parallel universe that you cannot stop thinking about. And I literally, I'm seeing these people in my mind when I'm on the train, when I'm talking to Daniel and then I witness something and I'm like, oh my God, that's so anwar, oh my God, I have to write about this later. That would happen to me for 10 years straight. I had another world in my mind for 10 years. And I remember I was walking with my partner on the street and I had submitted my book, the last version ever. And I started crying in the middle of the freaking street. And I was like, I had to say goodbye to them today. And he was like, babe, it's really hard, like that sucks, like I'm so sorry. And I was like, yes, these are real people. They're not just, they are figments of our imagination too but they're still very real and being rendered as such. Yeah, for me, I just love fantasy, you know? And I was like, I was saying, so it was like reading Octavia, reading Walter Mosley, reading Junot Diaz, it was like, oh, you can tell these cool stories and say some deep shit too. And I just hadn't like made that connection in my head because I had all the pieces, you know, again, I love the essays and then I love the, you know, dragons but they didn't come together until someone showed me that you could do that. And so I was like, oh, cool, I can do that. Well, shit, you know, of course I write that shit. So, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Harris. How many? Harris Duretti. Let me just, let me shout out the questioner though because this is Harris Duretti. He wrote a really, I'm not pronouncing it right. Oh, thank you. Sorry? Am I pronouncing it right? Hades Duranee, but whatever is easier. This is Hades Duranee. He wrote a really good book called Technologies of the Self that's about Dominican Muslims in New York City and demons and it's dope. Wow, that's so cute. Yeah, check it out, it's dope. Okay, sorry, question. Thank you very much for that shout out. But thank you guys so much. I really appreciate your honesty in talking about your work. I know Daniel, you've talked a little bit in other times about how you're really moved by the reactions you get from your work and how in some ways that matters more than any award you'll ever get. So I wanted to ask both of you, what does success mean for you as a writer? What does it really mean to be a successful writer? Word. To your goals? Well, the days do not stop getting hard when the hard days come because I have hard days still and success is always changing for me because I think like to me being here with all of you and with Daniel who again, I've known since we were working in a backyard of an organization in Bushwick. Adilka's here. Where's Adilka? She's up there. I love you, okay. That was one of my students back in the day and to see her as this fly young woman and we're on stage at Brooklyn Museum, that's success to me. So I will say that's very much like a moment where I can say this feels like success. But when I was a 21 year old working with these young women and we read for colored girls who have considered suicide when the rainbow is not enough for the first time which I learned from Chaney right here in college, that is success because Adilka has no idea that Chaney is who I learned it from when I was in college and it's just like this thing you're passing on from generation or community or whatever. That is also success. So I try to be very cognizant of connection and I think there's this New York Times thing about serendipity, I don't know if you read. This is when you're just on the train and you read random things. Serendipity is something that I really connect to, success when you have a thing that strikes you and then it becomes what you're working on is inspired by that thing. So you meet someone and they're an expert in Dominican Muslim art and they're just the guy you were talking to on the train and then your next piece is on fire because you are open enough to talk to that guy. So that to me is being able to identify those moments is part of crafting success but accolades, awards, Twitter followers, all that, I don't know if I think that's success. I feel like ego and success should not be together. That scares me a lot. I mean, well you've heard me talk about it and I think there's different levels to it. The most important thing about success is that each writer really has to define that for themselves and there's so many, you know, particularly in a white supremacist industry, it's so easy to be like, success is that breakout moment when you leave behind your community, you soar up above it all, you have a million dollars. You're in Hollywood. But you're living in a shack somewhere drinking Jack, you know, like lonely, all that shit. You know, there's like really unhealthy ideas of success from a white publishing and so that's fucked up. But it's also just like each individual person really has to define that. So like you said, like I know for me, like when people come to find me on Twitter or in person or whatever and they react so strongly to seeing themselves in my work, that is success. Success for me is also not for nothing, like having lots and lots of people read my books so that I can pay my rent and write more books and feed my wife jerk chicken and everything. I was like, that's also success, that matters. Because it's not enough for me to just write great books, I need motherfuckers to read them. And sell those books. Yeah, we need to sell them. Yeah, buy the books. But that's also, you know, that's me, that's where I'm at. That was my path that I've decided for myself. And I think it can be dangerous to, it is always dangerous to model that, you know, your path off someone else's. So it's really about like, can you approach that question of your writer's journey with the same creativity that you approach the book? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you everyone for coming and for doing, asking like these amazing questions and to the panelists of the year because they're amazing. Thank you Ashley. I wasn't reaching for their hands. I was just doing spirit things. But I'm really glad that I got to do that, right? Thank you. You're beautiful, you're lovely, buy their books. They're for sale over now. Thank you. We're signing over now. They're in the back. Thank you for coming. Thank you. Thank you.