 Welcome, welcome back. We are thrilled to have you for another episode of the non-profit show as we just shared this is the very first episode of the new year. So happy 2023. Today our guest is Katie Warnick, CEO of Staffing Boutique and Katie's joining us to talk to us about where you can find good staff. So stay with us. We also want to remind you who we are. So welcome back to you Julia Patrick, CEO of the American Non-profit Academy. I'm Jera Ransom, you're non-profit nerd CEO of the Raven Group and we are honored to continue our partnership throughout this year thanks to our amazing presenting sponsors. I want to give a first shout out to Staffing Boutique because Katie, you've been with us from the very, very beginning. We are so grateful to have your partnership as has Bloomerang. So thank you also to our partners at Bloomerang. Thank you also to the American Non-profit Academy Fundraising Academy at National University. Be generous. You're part-time controller, non-profit thought leader as well as the non-profit nerd. If you didn't check these companies out do yourself a favor this year. They are here to pour into you and your mission. They've poured into us and these episodes. You can find all of our previous episodes on Roku, YouTube, Amazon Fire TV, as well as Vimeo. And for those of you that are podcast listeners like myself, go ahead and queue us up wherever you stream your podcast. And again we are just so thrilled to have you back, Katie. You were instrumental truly in keeping these conversations going and flowing for us without you and your support and belief in us. We wouldn't be where we are today. So again, Katie Warnock, CEO and founder of Staffing Boutique. Welcome back and happy 23. Happy New Year. You know, Katie, I'm fascinated by the arc of our conversation. When we first met you, it was like, hold on to your job because you're not gonna, you know, they're not enough jobs. It was just like, isn't it true, Jared? It was like such an interesting dialogue that we had with you. And in this short period of time, wow, have things changed? They are changing. And I gotta ask you, we ask you to get out your crystal ball all the time. Jared and I was like, shine up that ball, shine up that ball. What are your inclinations about what labor shortages will be or what labor will look like for 2023? Just before we go into the conversation, give us what you think is gonna happen. Yeah, I feel like there will still be a shortage, and I would say for the next two quarters. That's what I think. I mean, again, a lot of my clients nonprofits are working on fiscal years that go till the end of June. So I don't see anything changing until then, or after that, I should say. And then in terms of the demand for staff, there's still a shortage for office staff just in general. And that's across various sectors, not just nonprofits, just in general. There are obviously, we see these big huge tech layoffs going on, et cetera. But we're not seeing that here within the sector. Hiring still is rampant, and there's still a lot of job vacancies. Yeah. One thing I'm curious about, Katie, and we've seen this over the three years, is a lot of people renegotiating with their current employer. So I'm curious if some of the labor shortages we're experiencing is also going back to that employer that says, you know what? I'm really ready for a change. I enjoy working from home. I don't want to go back to the office. Like, are we seeing some of that impacted impacting our shortage? I love that theory. And to be honest, I hope that that's true, you know, because that goes a lot in parallel to what I preach just about staff retention and not letting staff go and making them happy. So if that is the case, then that's great. That's a nice corner that we've turned. I don't know. I can't say that that's anecdotal for me yet, but I'll keep you posted on that. Yeah, do keep me posted. I think that would be really curious to see. I know you've also preached some of the stay interviews and that retention is critical. Let's talk about where we might be able to find candidates for our organization. Now, should we keep fishing from the same pool of the nonprofit candidates like within the same sector? Should we go outside of the sector, maybe fish in another pool? Oh, wow. What a good question. I mean, I think that there is sort of my standard response, which is look at the candidates throughout the years that have applied on your website, as well as volunteered. There is always a place on organizations website that says work for us or careers. And, you know, I'd say nine times out of 10, that isn't monitored. So who is utilizing those people, those applicants that actually wanted to work with for your organization, you know, whether it be now or 10 years ago, it's so quick to just do an email blast, blast all those resumes that have come through in the past. And even the ones that are current just say, Hey, we're hiring, you know, send us an updated resume, and then you might be able to fill in the gaps that way with your current vacancies. I would say the same thing about your volunteers, people that obviously have an interest in in your mission, touch base with those people first, I think that that's important. Obviously, I think idealist foundation center are always a good place to market your jobs. But yeah, if you're not getting good responses on those job, you know, job posting sites, I would say you need to start elsewhere. And this is where I like to get a little bit creative. I always, you know, screw the saying up, but it's really a boots on the ground effort. It's something that I've been talking about probably since I was like 26 in terms of recruitment, just always sort of articulating and preaching and communicating what you do for a living. I really found early on that there was a gap in good fundraisers that were just not Caucasian women, right? So how do we diversify that by teaching people about fundraising by conversations when you're at the bar, by conversations when you're at, you know, a holiday event or whatever you're celebrating, you know, this is what I do for a living. I recruit fundraisers. It's actually a pretty interesting career. There's a science behind fundraising and sort of just like articulating the really unique and special field that you work in to other people one by one. And that's really been where I've found success in my profession by myself, you know, I always am asking people what they do and telling them about the different professions that I see and recruit for. And, you know, if you don't, if you haven't grown up in a family that is baked into philanthropy, you know, you really don't know that there was not really a place where you're you're educated on that other than maybe like your school, Telethon or something like that, which are really great skills, you know, if you are, you know, someone who is working at your college and you did it Telethon or whatever it was, you know, I think I'm dating myself. I don't know if people still make calls anymore. But when I see a resume with that sort of experience, you know, that's great. So now making that phone call or meeting someone that's done that and then talking to them about a career in philanthropy. So I think that, you know, it's really small, a small effort that can go a really long way, you know, just having good conversations with people and teaching them about your profession. It's not something that you're going to see for the return overnight, but long term, it's something that I've seen, you know, such a return on, you know, so I think that that's really huge just boots on the ground. You know, we've, I've been able to predict a teacher shortage probably for the past 10 years. So I have always spoke about like education reform, teacher reform, I've been watching these charter schools grow and grow and grow, especially in my area and other urban areas. And it's something where I've constantly been talking about it. Now I'm sort of like the girl in New York City when you want to work at a charter school, I'm the person, you know, I'm the person that they call. It's crazy to me, but it's totally because of my efforts of just communicating and talking about the profession and where there's a shortage and how you'll always have a job here and the competitive pay, pay within charter schools. So again, it's totally a boots on the ground effort. I would say that that's a very long-winded response to something I'm pretty passionate about. But then on top of that, and just to piggyback on that, you know, taking away the stigma of, hey, what do you do for a living? You know, sometimes I say that to people and it's so easy and casual for me, you know, I do it all the time. But, you know, I could be with one of my girlfriends and they're like, I can't believe you asked that, you know? And it's, it's so important, you know, someone in number one, my profession, I'm always networking. I see every person as an opportunity for me in so many places. It could be a potential client, it could be a potential candidate. And then on the flip side of that, you know, I work with so many clients that I essentially understand very basic fundraising and I understand the reason to give. So I always, if I meet someone, let's just say, for example, that, you know, maybe as a veteran, like, I'll talk to them about one of my clients that has a military mission. Do you know about that organization? They're really cool. You might want to get involved with them. You know, so I'm always kind of almost prospecting too. So, you know, it's, again, it's very easy for me to have that conversation. But I think that that's something that we really have to get used to asking, you know, it's not a bad thing. I know, you know, in dating, when I meet someone, I'm like, well, what do you do? What do you do for a living? It's like, there's a stigma around that question. And I'm not, I'm not trying to size them up. I'm genuinely interested in what they do for a living. Like, how do they spend their day? What are their interests? What are, what are they seeing daily? You know, so kind of getting used to that question and then being able to articulate and sell your organization, what you do. And maybe there's a partnership there. You know, Jared, this is a really, hearing Katie say this is really interesting to me, because it's what we say about becoming a champion of your nonprofit. You know, it's a very much, it becomes a natural way to talk about what it is you're doing or what your organization is doing. And Katie, I'm fascinated by how your trait, if you will, that trait almost is a natural thing. And it seems to me like once you, when you keep doing it, it becomes a trait. It's more natural. It's more comfortable. And it just becomes a part of how you communicate. And that kind of, I think leads me into the next question is, what are some of the traits that we should be looking for in candidates, especially given where we are, we're having to look outside. You know, we're not, we're not doing the same things. What are some of the traits? Yeah. So to piggyback on what I said, the first thing is, you know, candidates that are interested, genuinely interested in your mission. I think that that is a really good trait because the more passionate someone is about your organization, the more I think hard they're going to work for you, right? Or the easier sell it will be for them to fundraise for you. So I think that that's the first thing. The second thing is just, you know, how responsive are they if they're in a job search with you? We're living in an error where people are glued to their phones. So when someone doesn't get back to me about a job interview, a job offer, even when I make phone calls for people who I could potentially see working for me, you know, I'm always kind of passively hiring. So when I see a strong resume, you know, I reach out rather than dispersing it to my recruiters. And that person doesn't call me back for 48 hours. Meanwhile, they sent their resume to my company. You know, that's a red flag. What were you doing? That was so important that you didn't get back to me for 48 hours. And I always send an email and I left a voicemail. So what happened there? Are you not responsive? You're not really proactive in your job search. And then I think that that just shows a lot about a person. I do understand people are busy. I know that people are very self-aware about how much time they spend on their phones. But just saying, hey, got this, I'll get back to you on Monday, goes a long way. So I think that that's, for me, the two most important things. But I mean, there's so many lists and tangents and things I can talk about. But those are two top priority. I love those. And you're so right. You know, being responsive is really important, especially if they're actively seeking, you know, a position. One thing that I know we've seen Julia and Katie, you've been a part of this as well, is, you know, maybe a candidate is not seeking the employment, but they've been tapped on the shoulder, right? Like, are you seeing that Katie happening more and more as we move into this new year? And is it at a certain level? Or just, you know, can you speak to that? I think that candidates right now know their worth. So yes, you know, I ran into someone at the gym yesterday that I know from an organization and I know what she does because I met her through another organization that's local. And I'll like, actually, hey, I'm hiring an events person at this organization. And she was like, Oh, man, you know how many, you know, organizations have reached out to me about, you know, similar jobs. So, you know, I'm happy where I am. I think it's constant. I think that, you know, people know what they're worth. I think that they're, you know, always smart about who they're talking to, but I definitely think that that's a thing that everyone is going through right now in every field. Yeah, no, I agree. Well, what about, you know, these other sectors, because I do see in the fundraising, you know, Lens, that's a good salesperson. I see in programming, that's a good project manager. Like I think there's a lot of relatable skillsets. So should we be looking at other sectors, where our candidates might be and what, what should we be looking for? Maybe it goes back to those traits. Yeah. Yeah. So I think that, you know, they're different areas or a different way to take, you know, different ways to take this question. And I think that there is a certain skill set that I could dive into for every single job within the sector. So that would take some time. But I think that just in general, I think that historically, since I've been doing this, so almost 20 years, it's been very challenging to find good nonprofit finance staff. It's very, very difficult. It always has been difficult. There is just such a salary gap between what a nonprofit finance person makes and someone in corporate. So I think that if your organization is smart and budgets well for finance staff, you can certainly look at other sectors. You can look at retail, you can work at someone that's worked for, you know, small accounting firms, CPAs, etc. but you're going to have to pay them competitively. I think that that's a really easy transition that finance or that nonprofits are missing out on. So finance staff is a huge one that I think that it's a pretty easy transition. The only thing that would be challenging is the nonprofit software that goes along with that. So that would be something that you would have to train them on. On top of that, you know, when I was last on the show two or three weeks ago, we were talking about how challenging it has been to find good nonprofit events people right now. There really has been a shortage, definitely locally and then in New York as well. So I'm talking about general who are going to New Jersey in New York. I think that and again what I talked about last time is looking at candidates that are coming from corporate events. So not nonprofits. I think that they understand what the high intensity of the job. They understand the project management, the detail, the, you know, just the general details that go along with being an events role. But you know, obviously they don't understand the fundraising aspect of it. So I think that that's a really strong place to look for events people. I don't love the idea of hiring sales people for fundraising. I don't know why I just I don't love it. I would like to see it like a good amount of positive success stories in that area. I don't I don't ever really see it. Okay, Jared, I gotta ask what do you think? Interesting. I mean, I see myself as a professional fundraiser, but I also equate that to sales, you know, and so I actually didn't come to the, you know, to the sector, the reverse, but I kind of do think that it's interchangeable, especially using something like cause selling, you know, I mean, it's right there in the title, the cause selling for our friends at fundraising academy. I think there's a lot of traits. I think, you know, it's maybe, you know, Katie to your point, I would see it negative if they see it as dialing for dollars or it's a very aggressive, like this is very mission centric, right? And that I think is the big focus and has to remain the focus for the fundraiser, mission centric and relationships, you know, it's not, it's not about a leaderboard. It's not about your quota. It's not about that. It's right. Yeah. Using the same conversation and looking at programming, can you take somebody that's let's say been in animal welfare and then move them into arts and culture efficiently because they know in theory program and project management, or do you think that that just never really slides? In my profession, it doesn't work. It's not to say that that hasn't happened and been successful, but for in my career, every single program job that I've gotten across my desk, it was because that specific organization couldn't find someone specific to their program. So they then hired me. So in my case, it's always been very similar. But again, you know, I've seen resumes of people that have just always working programs of organizations that are completely, you know, different missions. So it can happen. I see that a lot, Julia. And the way I see it, and maybe we've talked about this with Katie previous last year is in the nonprofit sector, there's often room for growth. And so people will leave a position, they'll leave an organization to take a higher position somewhere else. And we, you know, they kind of move, move around the sector based off the size of the organization and the upward mobility, because an organization may not have all the upward mobility for their current staff. So as professionals, you know, we seek it out in other organizations and might come back to that organization or might take that and build it onto, you know, yet again, another organization. So I see that, you know, to Katie's point, often where maybe it is a completely different program, you know, our sector within the sector. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's, that's very interchangeable. And I actually see it as a positive, because then I do, because they're able to bring in, well, this is what we did in the, you know, animal welfare community. This worked well. Have we tried this within arts and culture and vice versa. So I think there's a lot, you know, to kind of build on those relatable experiences. You know, Katie, part and parcel to this. And I can't let you go without really getting more information. You've really championed the stay, retent, you know, stay interviews, retention work. And boy, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't ever remember a time in American business for profit or nonprofit where this was even talked about. Yeah. Right. I mean, well, I guess that's good. I mean, I don't know. But you know what I'm saying, it's almost like it's a new concept. It's a new concept. Yeah, I will be honest in saying that, you know, again, I talk very heavily about nonprofits, but if you don't know, I do staffing for charter schools as well, which operate as nonprofits. So I've sort of been working parallel and growing my business with both of those industries at the same time. And one thing with charter schools, they grew so rapidly here in New York since 2010, that there was this huge burnout that essentially started to happen in about 2017, where it was sort of just this, because there's really no tenure in charter education. So what was happening, and these teachers were working very long hours, and they were really burnt out. And it was just like every year they were looking for a new charter school. And they were essentially getting the same, putting themselves into the same situation. So I have to say in 2017 is when we really started as a group of heads talking about retention and how can we make work life balance better, because we're listening to what these teachers are saying, they're all saying the same thing. Yes, they see themselves in education in five years, but no, they do not see themselves at this school in five years. And that's a problem. So it's something that I started to really talk about. Then I can't say that it's myself that took that on, but it's definitely a trend that me and a lot of my colleagues or co-workers or partners, whatever you want to call them in different charter schools throughout New York started to think about. And yeah, I love it. I love that we're talking about retention. I mean, I think that you need a retention plan always first before recruitment plan. Oh, I like that. Wow. Retention before recruitment. Yeah, that. Okay. Now I've never heard anyone say that. Yeah, your recruitment plan is nothing if there is no retention plan. So. Okay. Well, we talked a lot about making your workplace a destination. And I really do think that will continue this year. I know you didn't ask me about my crystal ball, but I'm seeing that in conversations for sure with our guests, with other leaders around, you know, the community. Julia is, you know, for us to keep and retain these rock star talent, first of all, that pay, we have to look at the competitive pay, which you mentioned in that, Katie, when it comes to the finance arena, we have to be willing to pay our staff. So I'm curious to see what this year brings, but you have brought us so much insight as you always do and so thrilled because you as well as Dana will be taking turns this year, coming on once a month for the nonprofit show, sharing what you're seeing in this space. And yes, the two of you reside in, you know, New York, New Jersey, but we're really seeing this across our nation. So Julia, I don't know about you, but I always, I always think, you know, what would Katie say about this? What would Katie's reaction be? So it's really good to have you here. I do too, because I kind of feel like, you know, she's seeing things and then they're moving across the country, right? Like it's coming from the coast, moving in. And I think, you know, for us, that's a big, you're a big indicator. You're kind of like the Canary in the coal mine, as they say. Before we let you go, a question has come in and this Katie is directed to you. The question is this, how can a seasoned employee locate a mentor for professional growth? It's a big question. You've got her speechless, which is very rare. Season employee. This is where I say, you know, you really just have to network, you know, this really is like, you have to ask people, ask me. You know, I know a lot of people, if it's something specific or somewhere specific, there's always someone that's going to be a resource, but you have, it's one of those situations that you just have to ask. You know, you don't know who would be a good mentor. If you don't know yourself, you're going to have to ask people. So look at 10 people on LinkedIn that you're comfortable calling. And I'm pretty sure that you're going to find an answer with the top 10 people on LinkedIn that you talked to. I would go to say too, you know, there's a difference between a mentor and there's a difference between a coach and you might want to consider a coach as you move into 2023. Yeah, I think there's so much opportunity there for both. I think they both, you know, really compliment, but I don't see, you know, that mentor being your coach and your coach being your mentor. So it's really two different things. Yeah, and I know a lot of coaches, but I heard the word mentor and I plugged into that. So yeah, totally depending on what the person actually wants. Absolutely. Yeah, great question. Really good question. Well, Katie, I rarely see you speechless, so that was interesting. But so glad to have you here to kick off our first episode of the new year. Again, Katie Warnick, thank you. Katie's CEO as well as founder of Staffing Boutique. Do yourself a favor, look up the website now, staffingboutique.org, phenomenal information. She as well as Dana will be here each and every month, shining their light into these conversations and bringing out that crystal ball. So we're going to have more and more of that. But thank you for this. Always a pleasure. You know, it's really when Jared and I get together and we've been talking about what do we see some of the most pressing things moving forward towards 2023? Staffing is right at the top of that list. And so these are really important conversations for us to have. And we really appreciate your viewpoint and expertise. Again, I'm Julia Patrick. I've been joined today by the nonprofit nerd herself, Jared Ransom, CEO of the Raven Group. Make sure you check out our partners such as Blumerang, American Nonprofit Academy, Your Part Time Controller, Bee Generous, Fundraising Academy at National University, Staffing Boutique, led by the one and only Katie Warnick, nonprofit thought leader and the nonprofit nerd. Again, these are the folks that partner with us. Wow, Jared, this has been a great way to kick off the new year. I know it's almost as if we planned it, but I'm so grateful that this was our first topic of discussion. This year is already a smash hit We've got so many amazing individuals that we're going to be joining us this year. And I'm excited for it. Really am. Absolutely. Katie, happy new year, my friend. And we'll see you again as we like to end every episode. We want to remind ourselves, our viewers, our listeners, our guests to stay well so you can do well. See you back here tomorrow, everyone. Katie, thank you very much.