 na kwa mno mawe ieya mawe mn기가 Explo Acting Now, according to the constitution under article 132, 1C of the constitution, it provides that the president of the Republic of Kenya shall once each and every year report in an address to the nation on all the measures taken and the progress achieved in the realization of national values according to that are referred in article 10 of the constitution. Now the president is further required to publish in the Kenya Gazette the details of the particular report. Now today we want to talk about the role of national government in promoting national values and how far are we so far as a country. Remember we had the state of the nation address a few weeks ago and did you take note of that particular part in the set of the nation address? Well, this particular Monday morning, let's talk about the role of government in promoting national values and to help us in this particular conversation, I am joined, I am with Edward Nyongesa. He is the acting director of the directorate of national cohesion and values that is found under the Ministry of Interior and coordination of national government. Thank you Ram and thank you for having me on this station this morning to talk about national values. Thank you so much my brother. I appreciate it so much. Thank you. Remember to engage with us if you are watching us from home. The hashtag is why in the morning at Ram Aguko and at Y254 channel is the handle. Remember we are coming to you live from the broadcasting house here in Nairobi Kenya. We are also streaming live on our website www.kbc.co.ke4 slash Y254. Engage with us. Let us know where you are watching us from and I shall sample your feedback a bit later on during this particular morning conversation. Let's start this particular conversation and I would like to start by mentioning that in regards to this particular conversation we shall talk about the compliance so far. What are we doing in regards to promoting it, mainstreaming it, the enforcement of national values, evaluation and reporting of this particular issue. Bwana Nyongesa, to kickstart this particular conversation, I want to start with the directorate of national cohesion and values. What is the role that is there in the directorate and how does it come in play when it comes to the government's role in promoting national values? Thank you Ram. I should begin by saying in promoting national values and principles of governance, the role of government will be to promote these values and to enforce. That means to follow up and see that institutions are complying with the provisions in the constitution as regards national values and principles of governance. And the directorate of national cohesion and values is established by an executive order as part of the executive arm of government. Now domiciled in the ministry of interior whose primary mandate as far as this discussion is concerned is to coordinate the measures to promote the national values and principles of governance. That means we work through programs, through activities and through coordination. And to do this we have coordinated development of a policy, now a session of paper number eight of 2013 on national values and principles of governance. This policy outlines what needs to be done, the aspirations that we have as a people to entrench national values within our society. And it are portions responsibility across all agencies and organizations. And therefore where we sit as a directorate we are responsible for seeing that institutions in the various mandates are mainstreaming the promotion of national values. Where we sit we are also responsible for coming up with programs that will enhance the promotion through directly by ourselves and especially most of it is through other government agencies as far as outlined in the policy. Therefore there are many programs we are doing but I can mention some of them at the moment including mainstreaming the promotion of national values through government agencies. Through this program we have managed to have this promotion as part of the targets that public agencies undertake every year. Through performance contracting organizations are required to commit that in this financial year we will perform our tasks up to this level. They set targets and that's what is measurable to ensure that everybody is working and giving account of what they do. So we have loaded the mainstreaming of values in each of those mandates regardless of what primary mandate an agency is supposed to do. They are targets that we set every year that will help the mainstream that as they do what they do they are also in that process carrying along awareness on national values and promotion of national values both within the organization and among the stakeholders that they serve out there and then they give account every year by submitting a report and then we are able to evaluate. So we've got entities that don't know how supervision is entered down to follow up. How do you work with these particular entities and ensure that they are up to par when it comes to promoting national values? The word is not supervision. I think it's coordination. Coordination. Coordination so because what we do we set the target that we expect the agencies to do the following. Which may include awareness creation, which may include promoting that mandate they are doing in a manner that will amplify the values. And then along the way as a directorate we follow up to enhance the capacities of these agencies by way of getting a focal point person in those agencies. And once a focal point person is appointed we also follow up to ensure that they have committees within those agencies to do that. And our role will be then to enhance the capacity of those committees and those focal point persons through training programs. We periodically convene training programs at which we go over and highlight what it takes for them to deliver on that mandate. And we get feedback during that time if the areas that require intervention, if the areas that require coordination with other agencies we do that. And after the periodic reporting we also get an annual report from every agency on the extent to which they have achieved the targets that we set. So what period here are we looking into apart from the annual report? What are the intervals that you have so far? Is it different for different institutions or how is the compliance when it comes to these particular reports? The final output is the annual report but in between there I pointed out. I want to point out that unlike the other performance contracting targets where they make quarterly reports on the target on promoting national values we just get one annual report. But in between through our interactions because like we will be seeing later when we track the annual president's reporting we have occasion where we meet at the beginning of the year with the focal point persons to agree on whether we are comfortable and we understand what the target we have set for that year entails. In between there we have a convergence of focal point persons through training and then we also use that opportunity to get feedback on how the promotion is getting along. Then eventually before we start receiving the reports we also converge with all the focal point persons to agree on how that reporting is going to be done. So during these interaction periods we have opportunity to get feedback on how the promotion is getting along before we finally get the report at the end of the year. Let's look at the different institutions that are there and I would like to start with the public sector, public institutions that are there. And what institutions do we have in the country that have been set in place that help the government in promoting national values and there we refer to the public institutions. I think for public institutions the first one is the presidency. Article 131 you referred to the constitution confers that responsibility of tracking and reporting on national values to the office of the president which requires that the president shall once every year in an address to the nation report on all measures taken and progress achieved in realization of national values. Therefore the highest responsibility is placed on the president and that way the president coordinates the entire government and that is where we come in Ram as a directorate working at the base of the president to facilitate that reporting. So it is on that article that 131 where the president should report that that is delegated to our directorate to enable him and that's why we get input from all institutions and then we compile to enable the president report. And that was done importantly because the president as the head of state, the symbol of national unity has the highest responsibility over anything that gets done in the country and so that is how values are important that it must be the president who should take responsibility and therefore that way he causes all government agencies and that's why it has been very easy for us to get these reports and to get the cooperation and participation of all government agencies because it's a presidential mandate and that way we are able to track and see how well we are doing. But let me cut it short, even as you proceed, let us know how do you ensure compliance and enforcement of this? Ensuring, I think that's something we will do. We have done a national survey on the status. We did the first one in 2015, about 2016. That was the baseline, the very first one. We was following on since the institution of the introduction of values in 2010 through the constitution, what, where are we by that time? So we projected that every so five years, so in this year we intend to do another survey and this survey is the one that will tell us across government, across the nation of Kenya, through all sectors, counties, regions, where are we? So that will be a tell-tale report that we are waiting to see. But before then the annual reporting is an indicator for us because we get feedback from the institutions and that tells us in analyzing those reports will tell you where what is happening and perhaps where there is a lot that needs to be put in. But that is just as far as government is concerned. We need to do more. That's why when we do a national survey we will get to know what is happening among the other actors other than the state agencies. What about the other civil society? What about the citizens, the private citizens out there? And that's where we would want to see. But meanwhile, through our other programs, we also have engagements through the civil society. We have worked with civil society organizations including Raya, including faith-based organizations including youth organizations. So in our interactions to some extent we get to know what's happening but I think a national survey will be one stop point at which we will get feedback on all those sectors. And I love what you're saying because now through that particular national survey you're able to get the data and the statistics that are very specific to help you to be able to make future plans and any adjustments that are there that can be able to promote national values. Now in terms of enforcing this particular issue in all these institutions that one can help. I'm looking at the, for example, the EACC, the Ethics and Anti-Corruption Commission. How do you engage this particular institution when it comes to promoting national values because corruption has been a very big challenge in the country and it has led to so many vices and it has brought up many challenges in the country in terms of governance and leadership and development in the country. Thank you Ram. I think as far as the EACC, I think that's one of the government agencies that is critical in monitoring compliance of Kenyans with the national values. And the EACC Ethics and the Corruption Commission will be speaking directly to the values and good governance, transparency and accountability. And here we are talking about values of integrity, we are talking about transparency and accountability and these agencies by their mandate are required to ensure that ethical conduct among public officers is upheld and when it is not done, it's their work to investigate, to find out the extent to which violations have been done and to enforce by forwarding evidence to the ODPP and further on for prosecution. So the EACC by their mandate helps government and our society to enforce the values of integrity, transparency and accountability. In as far as utilization of public resources is concerned, accounting for public assets, we've seen cases where even land meant for public use where it has been grabbed by individuals or converted to other use other than what was intended. We have seen the EACC recover some of these assets from Kenyans. Even monies that have been touched out of Kenya or in private accounts, we have seen them track and trace those resources and restore them to the Kenyan public. And therefore the EACC is critical in enforcing values that touch on that part of the constitution, integrity, transparency and accountability and even sustainable development. In terms of sustainability, how far is it that we have come and do you see the effectiveness of this particular institution? Many Kenyans complain at some point but I know that there are reports that it has to give when it comes to promoting national values and how far they have come but how do you go about it to ensure that at the end of the day the EACC has managed to fight these voices in the society because there are challenges that it is facing that are within the public domain. It's not in our place to assess the effectiveness and the EACC have spoken for themselves many times. And I've listened to what they have done and they have given a very good account of the amounts of monies recovered, the numbers of people of convictions among those who have offended the constitution and the laws of Kenya as far as ethical conduct is concerned. And where I sit I think they are on course except that of course this is relative. We will have people always who will feel they can do better. I think they can do better but it's alright to urge them on and we would want all of us to see an end to the advice of corruption. We would want all of us to see a proper use of public resources and that is for the good of our country. But meanwhile it has to be progressive. We have to be patient. They have taken steps. We can urge them on and perhaps for those who are in a position to cooperate because they cannot achieve alone. Everybody has to participate. Members of the public, we have the value of public participation. We all have a stake in our society. And therefore even members of the public willing to volunteer information wherever they see chances and occurrences of violations of these values I think Kenya should be very patriotic enough to point out to the relevant agencies and be willing to provide that evidence so that we can nab these vices so that our society becomes a better place to live in for all of us. I would like us to talk about the Kenya National Commission for Human Rights because I am aware very well that human rights is a very strong point when it comes to the country. We have people who have been fighting for human rights and it has been an issue when it comes to... It is an issue when it comes to promoting national values because it plays a role when it comes to promoting national values. I believe that is correct. How do you look into the human rights now? What is your voice in regards to this especially moving forward to a country where human rights is going to be... Human rights violation is going to be a thing of the past. Thank you Ram. I think as far as the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights is concerned we see it as a critical partner when it comes to tracking the values under the bill of rights and here we are talking about values such as social justice, equity, human dignity, human rights, inclusivity, nandiscrimination among others but those values under the promotion of the bill of rights would tie in with the mandate of the Kenya National Commission for Human Rights because we are saying government must lead not just government even all entities that operate in Kenya must promote those values wherever human dignity is undermined for any individual, for any citizen that is a cause for concern and the commission has been very vocal as a watchdog agency in pointing out cases where we have had violations they do investigate they do advocacy they do awareness creation and civic education quite meaningfully and so in conducting that civic education for the public to get to know about these values for us it's a plus because that is awareness already being created and for investigations and putting together evidence that would nab individuals who violate those rights even institutions who violate because we have seen a case of institutions that are in their mandate perhaps you setting up a factory and how you don't manage your refuse you discharge your waste in water or in space around and so we see the effect it has on the lives of people that live around that place the commission has had to voice this and point that out and you know that is serving the integrity of the life of the people who live there so we then also that commission in that way the commission is contributing to creating a society that is values best and therefore the Kenya National Commission on Human Rights becomes a critical partner for us in as far as promoting values under the bill of rights but we can say that there are steps that have been made forward yes they do they submit a report if you look at the annual report you'll see at least any of the measures they have taken and that to us is a contribution many Kenyans have been complaining and this is not a political question but if you look at the many Kenyans that are complaining about their rights being violated you know we look at the Mao evictions we look at so many people who their IDPs you know what will be your comments in regards to these challenges moving forward in regards to now getting a solution and promoting national values in the country I think though you say it's not political but it is really because when it comes to these evictions we have seen them in the government reserves it ends up being but before it gets to that we would want to see that their agency is responsible their agency is responsible in terms of law and order because that is the immediate response that comes the ministry is responsible for environmental conservation they are responsible for that and all of these institutions are bound by our national values and principles of governance but as far as discharging your mandate whatever it is you must operate within the provisions of the constitution human dignity so that if you are evicting them you are expected to do that in the context of respecting the human dignity of the persons affected so maybe if an interrogation was done by any watchdog agency they could be provisions and those are the things that people would be wanting to see that they are done giving your voice in regards to the commission on administrative justice how far is it and what is its particular role in this particular conversation CAJ is an agency established, a commission established to ensure that there is fair administration and as the ombudsman I think it is the place when Kenyans are dissatisfied by service from a public office that's where they go to launch their complaint that I went to this office seeking this service and this is what they ought to have done but this is what happens so the CAJ receives complaints and when they receive those complaints they last with the agency to find out why that was not done and they provide intervention so for us where we sit the CAJ promotes that value of good governance accountability it also provides an avenue when we talk about the value of democracy and participation of the people that people need to see that what they are entitled to in terms of service they get it so when they are not getting it there is a redress mechanism so that redress mechanism also provides satisfaction that it is not all lost if you went to an office and did not get service you don't have to go to court or it may not be a matter that you can go to court about but there is an office you can go to and you get intervention so that your service is fairness is done so CAJ is that office where people go to when there is maladministration or abuse of office by individuals who sit in office and they don't do what they ought to do individuals go to the CAJ to launch complaints and CAJ has been very effective in first of all seeking explanation when it's not done I mean they appeal to the supervising office and these interventions have resulted into efficiency in service delivery and satisfaction to members of the public and naturally promoting principles of governance because that's now we are talking about principles of governance we are talking about government and institutions of government performing their duties to the satisfaction of the citizens that is now where it meets and therefore CAJ becomes a critical partner in promoting the principles of governance challenges that have been faced in regards to public office as many Kenyans sometimes complain that I went there took so long waiting in line they had to go back home and come the next day during this time of COVID also it has also been giving us a different challenge because now public institutions have to go online the shift was so big giving your voice in regards to this now now I think this would be very it's very difficult to give a general assessment because different offices offer different services and you'll find demand for these services will be varying and that's why I think in devolving these services aware that sometimes the queues get too long that's why government came up with huduma centers in a way to decentralize and spread out service points so that through huduma centers instead of crowding for example the ID very many young people turn 18 every day so the demand becomes very high so if this is only done at the office of the county commissioner for example county or sub county it becomes one point and so many people converge there so that's why when the huduma centers came up they opened up the service points to be more and therefore to reduce congestion at specific offices but again it will go to the respective offices in observance of national values because when you talk about human dignity someone sitting on queue for too long I think you are abusing that value because the waste time and the dignity is diminished so we want to see that even government agencies review their procedures some of the queues are rising from the procedures that have been put in place you go here for a rubber stamp you go there for another rubber stamp you go there for another rubber stamp if the procedures can be reviewed so that all those rubber stamps are at one point you get all the three rubber stamps at one you know you have already cut down on the waiting time so I think this is the kind of appeal we would make that are aware that Kenyans need to have their dignity respected and to serve time and the value of good governance that means you are enhancing service when you enhance it means you are more effective more efficient you use less time and more people get served that is the kind of direction we want to see so that now we enjoy the dignity of obtaining services in our public offices in the institutions I don't like long queues nobody does nobody does but some people can be patient though I don't know but that's a good move by government because at the end of the day Kenyans need these services and it is quite unfortunate that Kenyans can wake up at 5 am 4 am trying to get to town so they can be able to go to a particular institution for their services only for them to leave that place at 4 pm in the evening it's very unfortunate human dignity is very important there now let's look at the judiciary and of course it has been an institution that has been on the limelight many Kenyans have been looking at the judiciary using magnifying glass trying to find out how it is doing but now in terms of promoting national values and principles of governance how far are we? I think for us the judiciary is a critical agency in the line of promoting values and where we are happy about this is increasingly when you listen to the judgements that are coming out of codes in regard to people violating various cases we have seen many people being found guilty of violating the provisions of the constitution in as far as national values and principles of governance is concerned even cases that touch on public participation we saw recently what was happening now that we are happy that Uhuru Pak renovation was stopped but just to refer to the fact that among the reasons that were cited for the suspension of the renovation process was that there are allegations that sufficient public participation was done in the process in the coming up with the proposal to renovate that pack that is just an example and that has gone on in many other cases we have violations of values in as far as integrity is concerned being cited as a reason for sanctioning individuals and sentencing them because they violated the values and principles of governance in the constitution and therefore the judiciary becomes a critical partner in enforcing you know sometimes when we just make provisions we know they are there and nothing is done on the basis of those provisions people take it lightly but you know for some I remember the president once said something similar to what I am about to say that sometimes kids are quick to go to court misusing court and at some point we end up having so many court cases about issues that at the end of the day could have promoted national values and principles of governance is that yes if there is no substance you know you are quick to go if there is no substance then that court case will not stand the test of time we would also share in that because at the end of the day national values are supposed to be enforced by the collective will of the people remember when we started we said values are the principles that guide people's decision people's lives we said that values are supposed to be part of the culture of our people and so culture is self enforcing and that's where values are because now from 2010 we have not come they have not been entrenched yet before we entrenched these values become self enforcing we will have to depend on some enforcement mechanism and so that's why the judiciary at the moment will become a critical partner in enforcing because people will say so what they will say so what the provision of the constitution is there about this is a value so what if I don't so that question of so what can only be answered by an effective enforcement mechanism of course this enforcement mechanism is at the far end when it comes to the judiciary judiciary is the very last resort we expect that before we get to the judiciary in between here we must have engaged between ourselves, among ourselves even with intervention and if that fails then we must end up at the judiciary the last resort and therefore the ruling of the court will be some punishment we talk about carrot and stick so when the carrot has failed we will use the stick at the end of the day and that is a way of enforcing and therefore others will learn the court will say so that this serves us as a lesson for others I'm sentencing you to this punishment and maybe can give us any other institution that I have not mentioned but let me just mention one more the commission for on revenue allocation the CRA your thoughts on this how is it playing because we are aware that it makes recommendations concerning the basis for the equitable sharing of revenue raised by the national government so how are we going to look at it because this is between the national and the county government what is this role and how far are we you will remember when we were in our previous discussion when we were talking about issues that affect the perception that we are one we talk about national unity one of the undermining factors was the perception of marginalization that's why one of the values is inclusiveness discrimination because they are perceptions and perhaps real facts that parts of this Kenya feel they are not at the center they are the periphery so for them to feel included that's why we have the value of equity in use of resources so that equity is a value under the bill of rights set of values and we can attain equity and a fair share of what is a public good and service so this equity becomes critical and most importantly is in the share of the national resource how do we distribute the income that we get through KRA when at the end of the year we are budgeting for subsequent expenditure so the commission for revenue allocation is this agency within government that will work with other agencies to get a formula on how do we share and the guiding principle on how they share this revenue is equity that means they will find out the level of poverty which differ from one count to another and on the basis of this they will allocate the higher the level of poverty the higher the allocation so that way we are catering for the vulnerable the counties that have been left behind so that they are able to catch up on top of that is CRR again which will work on how do we share there is a provision in the constitution on the equitable there is some money given to counties and regions of this country that have lagged behind and intervention and CRR commission for revenue allocation becomes critical in promoting that value of equity so that once the people who are disadvantaged in the past see what they are getting vis-a-vis what others are getting it will give them some sense of satisfaction that our unique circumstances have been looked into and therefore this Kenya is a good place we all belong to this Kenya you remember the other time that you were having actually this was a very hot conversation in parliament for the CRR the issue of one man one one vote one shilling it has not gone out it has not gone out it was so hot at some point right now it has cooled down a bit and the issue of land also land masses also and I think it came up again in the recent discussions that it is the people counties that are highly populated vis-a-vis countries that are sparsely populated so that the ones that are highly populated would be comfortable with one man one shilling one vote but the ones that are sparsely populated will be comfortable with using the formula of one is it one kilometer one acre one kilometer one shilling because for them they have land but these ones have population and that is what happens in a democratic space we have discourse and it's always good to bring them on and then give merits and at the end of the day a formula is found which will accommodate both parties our intention is equity in all these discussions the underlying factor is just equity because we need to promote this national values here according to the need so the question is here these ones are saying the need is the person and these ones are saying the need is the area we are developing because we want to get development at the end of the day is the denominator the person or is it the space so if I'm developing this big area I need resources to develop my huge account you have a small account so the question is do we use the population we use the area the size of the area but one thing that I love when a director is people want something good no one is a bad thing so that's why I'm saying there is merit in both and at the end of the day on the merit of the points sometimes when you listen to because incidentally these are politicians advancing these arguments sometimes we are taken away by who is saying what and therefore we want to make a judgment on the basis of the person advancing the argument rather than on the merits of the case itself I would encourage Kenyans to look at the merits in the case and remove the individuals that could be advancing this argument and that way we will be able to make a very objective decision on the way forward on how do we equitably share resources because the intention is equity in share of the scarce national resources but on that I want us to wrap this conversation and before you have a final word Kenya we celebrated our Jamuhurida yesterday Kenya is now 58 years Kenya at 58 how far are we and maybe you can give in your voice in regards to the strength the level that you have reached when it comes to promoting marginal values and principles of governance I am not also going to forget that we had the state of the national address that was recently made by the president your voice in regards to this Kenya maybe before I get to that Ram we were discussing the government and there is one agency that we cannot forget about which is the public service commission that public service commission has a mandate under article 234 of the constitution to promote compliance with the public with the national values under article 10 and article 232 in as far as public agencies are concerned the public service commission monitors they follow up and get reports from public agencies on the extent to which they are complying with the national values in all in the discharge of their mandates therefore their output is a key indicator because they are following up to enhance awareness in the public service and also to ensure that the public agencies are complying in the discharge of their mandates with those values I thought I should say that I hope we have not forgotten any other I think we are good now now in as far as assessing where we are in terms of national values 58 years down the line but we should not forget that national values come into the space in 2010 so in the years before 2010 we did not have national values and why national values was because there was a gap and that gap was touching on the lack of the national fabric as expressed by what we saw later in early 2008 that there was a lack of a national fabric that holds us together and that's why whenever there is a disagreement we disintegrate into our ethnic identities and many times we express our ethnic nationhood and that's why we had tribal clashes and all that so from 2010 we begin to work towards creating this fabric that will hold Kenyans together and we craft our national values which is an aggregate of what is expressed in various cultures within our country 17 nation values are actually an aggregate of our cultural values our religious values and our societal values that would cut across and create a fabric that would identify a Kenyan so because this is what we have from this time I would rather to be fair to ourselves we will be talking about since the inception of this national values then where are we and how much progress have we made I did say that our survey in 2015 was an average of 56% awareness 56 national awareness and this would break down differently from one region to another I would tell you that some counties would come as low as 38 others would rise beyond 60 but the average was 56 when it comes to compliance again different values would be complied with differently and I'm just talking about statistics because that's what we had in 2015 and I'm saying we are looking forward to conduct another survey perhaps that will tell us more scientifically where we are in as far as national values are concerned but I can say for sure that we are noted there noted there in as far as complying with the national values and principles of governance is concerned that's why we still have the vice of corruption and that is why we still have society that will stand aside we still have violations many times people will be in Amatatu and would encourage the driver to overlap they would encourage the driver when they have been stopped by Amatatu and they feel we are getting late come on 20 that's a lack of national values and as long as we begin to see this I think we have work to do you've reminded me of what happened that happened in River Enzio yes according to some reports the driver was claiming that that bus was about to cross that river that he was being told by the passengers but he was hesitant he was hesitant but because of that pressure from the passengers that were there maybe you can give your thoughts in regards to this now that the government is trying its best in terms of national values what are your thoughts in regards to the impact of this on the society that's what I'm saying we still have some way to go to convince ourselves that patience is a value is a virtue patience these guys just lack the virtue of being patient and waiting for the storms to come and incidentally they are not the history they knew water that is not a permanent river they normally wait for a few hours and then the water will subside and then they would have crossed safely but because of the feeling of we must be there now now they would have lived to have a wedding but later but because you want to have it now you risk the outcome is catastrophic that is just an example there are so many incidents in our society that reflect very badly in as far as values are concerned and so it's a moment for us as a nation to reflect and this is what work we have cut out that we will have to reflect on who we are as a people and then begin to operate differently so that we can reflect the values are people who willing to wait that's why this impatience is what causes people to bribe because you want to get quickly you don't want to delay gratification you want it now and here and now you promote corruption because you want something quickly wow I'm looking at the public participation also because the public also needs to play a role when the government county government, national government needs to participate we should turn out in numbers for some cases based on some reports the public those who turn up are not as many as they ought to have turned up and sometimes you have the same regular guys turning up sorry to say but the value of public participation is a requirement and that's why institutions because if they don't people to participate and what the outcome of the process will be disqualified then the frustration is I don't know whether it is the unwillingness on the part of Kenyans or whether it is the environment that is created by the agencies that drive this agenda because we would expect that if for the stakeholders if you are coming up with a bill on expenditure the people in the accounting and the money sector will be important if you are coming up with a bill on health you would expect that the actors in the sector of health will turn up but what obtains is different you will find the same guys came on this bill the other one the same guys are coming and that tells you something is the matter that means how credible are this and therefore how credible is the input that you get so we are just doing it for the sake of fulfilling the requirement that people came indeed and we can see evidence but I would think the quality of participation becomes low so it means then the conveners need to go out of their way and reach out to the stakeholders key to that area reach out to them beforehand write to them communicate to them and invite them it's not enough to do a notice in the newspaper because that's what the law requires that's the bare minimum they need to go beyond the bare minimum and communicate directly to the stakeholders that are important and tell them because you know Samara are afraid of being sanctioned being things not going the way they want because the public will think differently and that's why they would want to manage the public participation by calling certain people whose views they know in advance are in agreement with what they want so we must look at both sides then we would say in convening this public participation forum how did you arrive at the people to come how did you communicate to the public and therefore would want to see that way and then before we look at the stakeholders and say if you knew there was a matter coming that touches on your area why didn't you show up perhaps it's because of frustration maybe they showed up one time and made their views and they were not taken on board and therefore we would want to look at this so perhaps I think the relevant agencies should begin to look at this and then to enhance this value of public participation so that the outcome is all representative and is owned by everyone Thank you so much I guess I remember this is the final part of this series of conversation that we've had in regards to national values and principles of governance this conversation did not start today and it will not end today because ahead of the day we need to play a role and it's a step by step movement I remember we started with defining what our values we talked about this in our previous conversations at the roles of national values in the society we asked the question why do we have national values and principles of governance in the constitution is it there which articles do we have we highlighted that particular conversation we also talked about whether there are constitutional provisions of national values we highlighted the explaining each and we highlighted and explained each of the 17 national values and I remember Bona Nyongesa we talked about these principles we also highlighted the stakeholders who different stakeholders are in terms of the provisions of national values and we mentioned the public service the professional associations the media, the private sector the education sector and much more we talked about the role and today we are talking about the role of national government and principles of government in promoting national values and principles of governance and its impact in the society I hope that you'll be able to catch up this conversation in our previous interviews that you've had before head over to YouTube on our handle that is at Y254 channel and you'll be able to catch up more this conversation on national values and principles of governance if there is something you need to find out about this issue it is there in our previous conversations Bona Nyongesa it's a pleasure being with you and I want to give you time to have a final word wrapping it all up in this conversation of governance our take home for the day as we wrap it up thank you Ram I think I can say to Kenyans and especially to young people because this station targets the young people luckily who are our future that are if we didn't get it right and indeed we haven't scored very highly in the past going forward we must have a different perspective and therefore I'm making an invitation to the generation the next generation that we must begin to look at things differently and entrench national values our constitution is very clear that we need to realize these values and by realizing it means we need to promote we need to enforce these national values and as a directorate so far we have received the support we require from other arms of government but we need to bring on board the Kenyan public we need every individual in this society to come on board and first of all impress the values we have taken a run through the 17 national values fried from patriotism, national unity through sharing and evolution of power through equity through social justice human dignity, human rights we talk about nandiscrimination we talk about inclusivity, transparency, integrity accountability down to sustainable development and this are what should be a reflection we said the intent of national values in the constitution one critical important objective was to create a national identity that means to say who is a Kenyan define the attributes of a Kenyan a person who loves their country who is willing to work with others in the name of national unity who is able to participate in terms of civic responsibility who doesn't take things that will hurt others I mean all these are the values that we are saying and they create an identity of who we are we also say that these values are in the constitution because we want to enhance transparency and accountability and management of our national resource and their values to that effect we also say that we want to have sustainable development that means we want to have development now and continue to have it and therefore we want to start out the resources that we have and see how we can manage this sustainably both for the current and future generations and with this objective we all need to be on board and we want to work internally to transform our society transform is the word that means there must be a willingness there must be an aspiration and we aspire to have that kind of identity as outlined in the values and together we can achieve this so I want to participate I mean to invite Kenyans especially young people we are the directorate of national cohesion minister of interior our offices are at X telekom's house as long as hence last avenue and we have a website national values Kenya we want to invite that you interact with us reach out to us and we will be able to bring you on board we have our training programs for youth for civil society we have our exchange programs we have our programs programs for the public service mainstreaming I think that we have no problem and we communicate with all this and please reach out to us with any other input and request and we will be happy to work with you thank you so much that is Abwana Edward Nyongesa it's a pleasure my brother thank you so much thank you so much and that brings us to the end of this series of conversations remember you can also find them on twitter at cohesion values on twitter keep engaging with us at Ram Agugo the official session analysis at Y254 channel the hashtag is Y in the morning and that brings us to the end of this morning conversation right here on Y in the morning in Dugas this particular segment on national cohesion national values and principles of governance I hope you've learned something and remember all of us have a role to play when it comes to promoting national values and principles of governance what have you done so far and what do you plan on doing as we move forward my name is Ram Agugo it's a pleasure being with you a big thanks to the directorate of national cohesion and values and a very big thanks to them for coming to Y254 and empowering the youth so that you can be able to better know how to handle ourselves moving forward even to the coming general elections this is why in the morning let's take a short break and we'll be back in a bit keep it locked