 Okay. Good morning, everyone. Welcome back to the class. There's a second lecture on church and ministry administration. Let's go forward from where we paused. Okay. So we were talking this on page 26. We were talking about employee development that we look at ways in which we can keep developing people. And we talked about some practical ways we can do this. And now here are some additional things we can do to help people grow professionally within the organization. So remember that for most people, they want to keep growing. Very few, very few that you'll find there you give them a job. They say, okay, I'm satisfied doing this. Don't give me anything. That's very few. Most people are looking to grow professionally. They want to, you know, do bigger things, better things. They want to, of course, earn more in a year increase in salary, etc. But in order for that to happen, they also have to grow professionally. And so we need to create opportunities for that group. How can we do that? One is we can give them new projects to handle. So it's okay, hey, you've been doing this work so far. Let me give you something bigger, bigger responsibility, a bigger role. Can you take on a little bit more responsibility? So new projects, new opportunities, new assignments, our increased responsibility. Can you oversee little more areas of the ministry? Or even moving them up to new roles. So these are things we have to look at. Of course, in all of this, you need to consider what they're capable of. Do they have the competencies to take on these responsibilities? Secondly, can they handle that increased responsibility? Some people cannot say, hey, now you have to manage five, six people. Some people may not be able to do that. They're happy doing maybe something that they themselves do. But if they have to come in and they have to manage more people, they may find that difficult. So all the increased workloads, that means there's more work to be done. So that means they have to increase their efficiency. You still have just so many days, hours of work. But you have to do more in the given time. How can you do it? Be more efficient. So usually I would discuss with the people that I will say, hey, I'm thinking about this. Would you be able to do this extra work? Would you be able to take on this new area of ministry? Would you be able to take on this new project? Would you be able to do this? You think about it. You don't have to answer me now. Take two weeks, think about it, pray about it, and you come back to it. So usually I would just place it in front of them and say, if you go, take some time, then you come back and tell me. At the same time, I'm also looking at, see, there are some people who say yes to everything. They are very enthusiastic. No matter what you tell them to do, they'll say, yes, I'll do it. There are those kinds of people. So then for those kinds of people, I have to be careful because they'll say yes to it, but then they'll struggle afterwards. Or they may, if they're finding it difficult, they won't know how to come back and say, I'm actually finding this difficult. I need help with this. So for those kinds of people, I myself will be a little careful to move, give them a little bit more. Is it okay or not? Because I know by default they will say yes. So I'm a little careful. For some people, they need to be pushed. That means the other kind of people who will just stay back and as long as you don't understand them, they just keep doing what they want. But they actually have the potential for more. They actually have the potential to stretch. So for them, you have to kind of in a nice way convince them that they can handle something more. They can do more work, etc. So you have both kinds of people. So you have to work with them a little differently and never force them to do more. You always let them agree to taking off the responsibility. You put it before them. You say this is what it will cost, meaning you have to do all of this work. Are you ready for it? Can you do it? You think about it, you come back. So even if I have seen the potential, I have seen that they can do this. The final decision is theirs. So I give it, let them do it. And then we agree that he or she comes back and says, yeah, I'm ready to take it up. We give them the role, etc. And then usually if they are growing up, then we will also increase their salary. That means now they're carrying more responsibilities. They're handling more leadership. They're handling others, etc. So based on that, their salary also goes up. Once they have taken up the new role and they're doing this. So the whole thing is we need to develop people. We can develop them while they're doing the job. We also develop them by giving them new opportunities. And the nice thing is if somebody goes up, takes on a new role, then their own role, in many cases, things that they are doing, actually creates opportunity for some new people to come in there. So it's actually helping them grow and it's also helping somebody else grow, come into that place as they move up or take on bigger responsibilities. So it is good for the organization. It's good for the people to come in and take up some new roles. Now the next thought is, and I'll finish these things here, is the way we work is every January, we will revise the salaries of people. So generally, every January, people will get a raise. Every December, they get a bonus. I'm talking about the full-time start. Every December, everybody gets a bonus, meaning up to 25,000 rupees, they get a bonus based on the calculation. And then every January, we will revise the salary, but it is based on performance. So if there has been no improvement on performance, then sometimes I will tell them, say, hey, this past year, of course I'm talking to them throughout the year, but there has not been much important improvement in performance with leader salary editors. So in some cases, in some occasions I've done that, but they've really not, just they've done the same thing the whole year. They've not made efforts to take things out. So we'll leave it there. After you change your improved performance, then you'll take up your salary. But in most cases, people always, they always are growing. They are doing something better. They're taking on responsibility. So you're seeing that. So every January, their salary will be raised. And we have an upper limit. Like we can't just raise the salary randomly. So we, I mean, in talking about Indian rupees, it will be between 5,000 to 15,000 rupees, is generally the increase that they will get in January. That is 5,000 to 15,000 rupees per month. So if you multiply that by 12, that's the annual salary increase, but the monthly salary will go up by 5 to 15,000 rupees in that range. If you've done some improvement, okay, 5,000 monthly. If they've done fairly well, 10,000. They've done exceptionally well, okay, 15,000. If they've not improved at all, then no salary change. So just based on their work. It's a standard thing we do for everyone. So it's not, it's not some huge raise, like, you know, corporates would give, but it is something that says, look, we recognize you've improved, you've grown, and so therefore your monthly salary will also be raised like this. So that's something we do every year. Now, as I mentioned earlier, if, you know, during the course of the year, if these people are not performing, or if there is a change in the role, like then we, at that time, even during the course of the year, we will revise the salary. You know, like if somebody's not performing and they have to change to a different role, then we will have to adjust the salary based on the new role that they're taking. And if the new role does not require the same level of skill and responsibility, they're coming down, so to speak, then yeah, we will bring the salary down based on that. So if something like that happens during the course of the year, it's rare, but if it does happen, then we will change. Dealing with difficult situations, so, you know, there are two kinds of approach, two things we do here. One is, there's a three strikes approach, like I think I shared it last time, that if people are doing something that's wrong, or they're not performing well, we tell them, you know, first warning, or first time we have a conversation, record it, second time we have a conversation, record it. And if it still doesn't change third time, it's okay, now we have to bring this to a close. So the third time, if something repeats, we close it. In some situations, it will result in immediate termination. If there is any example, there's any conduct that is really bad, immediate termination. So I'll give an example, one or two examples. I don't know if I've shared it with this, but this happened many years ago in our, this was in our, among our church staff, there was one guy who was working, he was a married man. He was married, he had to give this. There's another lady who was working as staff, well, our full time staff in church, church office, they were here. And her husband had passed away, just recently, they were all part of church only, but her husband passed away, and she had two children. So one is a married man, one lady, okay, her husband is passed away, means she can get married, she can get married. That's fine, they're not against it. But what happens? I observed that these two people were getting very close in the church office. And sometimes, and again, this is not like I'm, I'm sitting and looking at the camera as a baby. It just happened that, you know, I think it was a Saturday, I can't remember now, exactly, it's happened years ago, so I can't remember the details. But anyway, I was walking into the office, and I saw these two people in a kind of awkward, it was very close to each other, talking, and nobody else was there. I felt a little suspicious, but I had no evidence. And we don't have CCTV cameras in our church office. So I have no evidence. So I called this guy, I said, see, I don't know if anything is going on between you and the other person. You are a married man. You have your wife and you have two kids. Yes, her husband is passed away. She can get married whoever she wants, but you cannot get into any kind of relationship with her. So please be careful. So I just had a conversation with him, just one day, because I don't have any evidence. I just happened to come into the office that time. I saw them both there and nobody else was there. So I was a little suspicious, but I had no evidence. So I just had a conversation with him. I left it at that. Then, again, I told him about the actual details, but maybe I would say, maybe within two weeks or something like that, I get a call from his wife. Now, they're all part of the church. His wife is calling me. She says, this problem is going on. This man, his husband, he comes home. From home, he's sitting and chatting with the other lady. So now I have actual evidence. His wife is telling me. He comes home, he's sitting and chatting with the other lady and he's saying, I have work to do. Now, I know they have no work in common. They're in different areas of ministry. There will be no reason even in the office to talk to each other. There's no common. For him to go home and be chatting to this other lady and giving the excuse, I have work to do. I know there's no work between them. Now, the wife is calling me. And I said, okay. Now, I took it very seriously. And I said, okay. And then she was telling me, it's going on every day. For hours, he comes home, he's chatting with the lady and it's happening every day. She has talked to him. He says all these things. And I said, okay. You come on a Saturday. So I call them on a Saturday afternoon when nobody will be in the office. The office was closed. That particular Saturday, the office was closed. So I told her and I told these two people, the church staff, I told them to come. And I told his wife to come. And these ladies and kids, I told them not to come. They were both teenagers. So, you know, like 16 and 18 or something like that. So I told them not to come. So they all came on Saturday to the church office. So first I called his wife. I said, you tell me what is going on. So I spoke to her separately. And she told me everything. See, he's sitting at home. He's chatting all this. There's going on. Sometimes he actually goes out with that lady. This is the wife telling me. First hand information. Okay. Then I called that lady's kids. What's happening? You see, our mom is at home. She's talking to that man all the time. Sometimes they go out together. What is this? He's a married man. This is a... Okay. Her husband is passed away. She can get married to somebody, but not another married person who's actually married now. So I have actual evidence from the wife and from the children. Then I called these two people. I asked them. I said, is there anything going on between you? And sitting on the table in front of me, they said, no, nothing is going on. I'm like, hey, I just spoke to your boy. I just spoke to your children. They have told me what they are seeing. It is not life. And these two people sitting in front of me, I said, nothing is happening. They're just friends. Nothing happened. So that was it. I said, right now, please both of you, take all your belongings. Now how can... And they were terminating. I said, you come and collect your termination letter. This was... So that was immediate termination on Saturday itself. Now, why do you make that kind of a decision? It is because we are a church. And as a church, we have certain standards. Now, if this was a conference, they will not interfere what you do personally. That is your problem. You come and do the work and go. You have relationship and all. That is all your problem. It's out to see you go. But this is church. Where conduct... And especially, you know, this one is totally against what the word of God teaches us. So immediate termination. And then we try to work with them outside. Because they were members in the congregation at that time. I dismissed them from being staff. But then I tried to work with them as church members. I tried to speak with them, but they would not change. It ended up in a very bad place. So it just went on. It became worse. This man got divorced. He got married to this lady. I don't know if he got married or whatever, but they moved in. So it became very bad. Although we tried to work with them outside. But this is an example where... It's a difficult situation. Church staff doing this. And you have to deal with them. And I remember during that time, I actually got a call from one of the church people. They come and say, we saw these two people walking together like this, going around. What is happening? So it was actually... And they know these two people are church staff. They're working for the church office. They have certain responsibilities. And they're being observed outside from others. So I even got a call. They don't see me. It was quite embarrassing. Anyway, it's just one example of difficult situations that you have to handle. But because they are staff, it is immediate diminish. We cannot let it go on. There have been other difficult situations. For example, I had requested, this happened during the COVID time. Because of COVID, we could all not all meet. We couldn't do the normal work. Everybody, okay, you all work from home, et cetera. And I'd given everybody work to do from home. And so to one person, I said, please document the processes, the whole thing that you're working on in that particular area of ministry, documented. And please also plan on building that area of ministry. Because we would like to hire at least two more people for that ministry. It's your responsibility to grow that area. And this is all work from home. So all that person had to do is to sit down and write down, you know, because they're not meeting that a lot of activities closed. Just like when you write down, document this. And I'd given everybody a timeline. So within one or two months, please finish this work, send it to me. Everybody else sends, they work. And this person didn't send. So I reached out, hey, what happened? They're supposed to send the thing. They even sent him samples. Please look at these things. You work on this document, document the process, the systems that in your area of ministry and see how you can have a plan to build it. Then I gave him another two months. He didn't do it. So now I've given warnings. I've made lots of requests. It's almost, and I couldn't understand why this person would not write this. And, you know, in all, I don't think it would have taken more than, you know, six, seven pages writing to actually document what was happening. Others have done it. They all sent it to me by the date. This person didn't do it. I gave another two months. He didn't do it. So then when we were able to meet in person, I called him. What happened? Why? I don't want to do it. I said, I don't want to do it. So what is the problem? You know, why? Others have done their work. Why can't you just document in your ministry area, your responsibility? Why can't you write it down and, you know, we want to build this area? So then, so I had given him almost six months extra. Now I was okay. I don't know what I was thinking. Then I had to make the decision. I found this very silly. It was very silly because it was so silly because all you had to do was write your area, write it down, all about the process, the systems, how do you have to take it? Just write it down and share it. And then have a plan to build your method. It was very simple. It was nothing complicated. He didn't do it. And I had to make the decision to dismiss. And we gave him one month's notice dismissed. So he said, he was a nice guy. I had no problem with his work. Only thing, this one thing he refused to do. I was like, why? And he would not change. After so many requests, so many things, he would not change. Then I had to let him know this is a silly thing, but it's a serious request. Everybody is doing it. Why can't you do dismiss? I'm very sad. I don't know whether he got a job after that. I don't know. It was a sad situation. It was actually unnecessary. It was unnecessary. But it happened. And that was a difficult situation where we had to terminate. Actually for no valid reason. So good man, good person. Out of the church. Just he was refusing to document his own. Ministry. All right. This wrap up here. Exit interview usually when people are leaving. The HR would talk to them and just to ask them how was your experience here? Do you have any feedback for us as an organization? How we can... Exit interview is useful because people will say anything and whatever they want because they're leaving. And that's a good thing to do. Because that's when they can just say what they want. They're not wanted. But it's a good thing to get that feedback. It'll show us where we are lacking and where we can improve. Another important point is to follow whatever labor laws are there in your state, in your part of the world. So for example, contributing to people's retirement fund is a law. So we have to follow that. Deducting the tax from the salaries is a law. We have to follow that. If an employee works for at least five years, works full-time five years and then they leave, we have to pay them that duty to calculate the graduates. That's a law. We have to follow that. They have a formula that we have to use. So all these are laws and we have to follow with your full-time staff, whatever they need. So I'll just answer some two questions. These are questions that were asked by previous patches. What can we do to help people grow within the organization? I shared some thoughts. We can train them, give them opportunities, mentor them, give them feedback, give them opportunities to learn. And here's a very important question. How do we separate the personal life of the church staff and their work at church? So the thing is a lot of the people who are church staff are also part of the church. They're in the congregation. And we prefer that because they understand what the church is about. So it's very easy when they have to make decisions. They're all aligned to where the church is going. So it's a benefit. But then how do we separate out the time of work in the church office with their own personal life? So I try to be very careful about that. Otherwise, church work can just fill up their own personal life. Even at home, they're doing church work. And it'll affect their marriage. It'll affect their family, all of that. So one is simple things. And I try to be very respectful. You don't have to take church work. You don't have to take it home. You do the church work here. We will not interfere in your personal life. So I try to avoid messaging or calling our church staff outside of work hours unless it is an emergency. So emergency will happen. Somebody is not well. Somebody is in the hospital. Somebody passed away. A funeral has to happen. Of course, those things are emergencies. We will talk at all times. But otherwise, church work related matters do it during office hours. Do not disturb them on their personal life. And so we respect each other's the way. So I will not disturb them. They will not disturb me or we will not disturb each other during personal time unless it is an emergency. So we keep that separate. Then also, they are free to do whatever they want with their personal time. Meaning, how they use their personal time, we do not interfere. We don't even disturb that. It's up to them. How you use your personal time. As long as you work, do the church work during the office hours. 40 hours a week, that's all. And we don't check on where you go, where you come. The only important thing is the testimony has to be good. You can't do something where somebody sees you and then they call and say, hey, one of your pastors, I saw him drunk. Those guys, I think they can't do. They can't do that person. Keep your person. You do what you want to spend your time. Some of our people may have their own ministry outside. We don't interfere with that. They want to go preach in some other church, a conference, go do it. It's up to you. So we don't interfere with that. As long as they are not doing some fundraising or some promotions, there are not. Of course, there are some guidelines. We tell our church staff not to get involved with anyone in our congregation in any kind of business dealing, financial matters. Not going to that. Because somebody is a church staff. They get into some sort of a financial dealing with people in the church. Something goes wrong. It will affect us. It will reflect back on the church itself. And it has happened in the past and it's led to some very difficult situations. So as a guideline, we say, don't do anything. You want to do business good with other people outside. But don't go into business dealings with people from the church. That is between church staff and church members. Don't do that. Between church members, that is their decision. We don't interfere. And family constraints. Sometimes people have to travel. We try to manage that. Sometimes the wife expects her husband to be at home all the time. Say, no, no, no, this is real work. This is not just if that person was working in some office, they have to go to the office. This is also real office work. We have to be in the office and do ministry, we can sit at home and do those things. Okay, let me see the questions on the chat. Okay. So question on the chat from Jaffina. Have you ever felt guilty bad after terminating someone? If yes, how did you overcome it? All right. So that's a good question. And the answer is, yeah, you always feel bad. You always feel bad that you had to dismiss somebody or you had to make a very tough decision. It's not easy. You wish there was an easier way out that, hey, I want somebody to help this person, right? But then I tell myself that I have done it with a clear conscience. You know, that I have explored all the possible options to try to help this person, but we couldn't do anything. No, like we couldn't give them a different role. We couldn't help them learn something. We couldn't reach the situation where we had to make this decision and we've done it with a clear conscience. So my heart is clean. My hands are clean. I feel bad that, you know, I had to make the decision that because they also will not feel good. They lost a job or they will make a change. Something's changed, right? So I feel bad about it. But then I've done what I can and my conscience is clear. Now, in some cases that has been retaliation, you know, for example, I don't remember one case that happened some years ago where we had a, like people in charge of a certain ministry responsibility and things were okay. But there were certain things that had gone wrong there, especially in their interaction with some other person in the congregation because it became very bad. And that's not a good thing, right? No, as people in leadership, we have to set a good example. We can't be in competition with somebody, some church member and have that relationship. So that was one thing that happened. Plus, I noticed that because they were also quite busy, they were not able to actually take things forward. So I waited almost, so they had been in that for at least three years, I think, and that particular year, and I had been always, like I've been meeting them on a monthly basis, I've been saying, okay, keep, you know, try to do this, try to grow, try to grow, but that was not, they were not able to do it because they were busy, they were not able to do it. So then I said, okay, see, what is the best, so putting all of these things together and taking a lot of these factors into consideration, I was on that. I said, what is the best decision for the good of the organization? And so I took all the factors in that. I mentioned two of them, there are other things that I don't want to talk about, but I took all this and then I said, okay, so the best thing would be to request them to step down and let somebody else who knows how to do this, take over this minister, in fact, somebody else who was doing it before, who handed it to them. I thought it would be an opportunity for them to grow, but over three years, whatever the duration was, three plus years. Okay, so I'm going to let him come back and take it. So my thought was, and then I prayed over it because this was like, I think I prayed over this for two months. Seriously, this was like a very big decision and big means for me at that time that I'm going to ask these two people to hand this ministry back to the person who was having it before and to tell them to step down because I was, all these factors are very, things I'm going to do. So I said, how will they take it? How will they be affected? For two months I was praying, I was praying, God, this is what I feel, this is the right decision to make, but how to do it, how do I tell them and how do I make this? So I was literally, internally, nobody else knew. I did not discuss it with anybody else. I was struggling with it in prayer for two months and I had been giving feedback to this couple over several months now, saying, hey, you have to work on this, you have to work on this, it's not happening. So they know my expectation, they know it's not happening and all the other things are going around. So finally I called in the office, I said, see, this is the decision, over the next one month. Yeah, over the next one month, just hand it off to this other person. So all I, in my mind was this person was already handling the ministry. They're just giving it back to the ministry and within one month you can do it. Actually you can do it in one day because the person already knows how to run this ministry. In one day you can run the ministry, but I said give one month because I just also wanted them to accept it. I made that decision, it became such a big issue. I was actually shocked. You know that it kind of blew out of proportion. You know that then they went, it was like they were crying in front of the people and all those things, I didn't expect that. All I was going to say, say, you hand this back to this person, you step down. I didn't tell them to leave the church. I didn't tell them you cannot serve in the church or you cannot be a part of the church. I didn't say any of that. I just said please hand this role back to and this other person. Over one month. That one month was so difficult. I don't know what conversations they had with people, all of that. And I felt so, but I went and I apologized. I went and met the person. I didn't mean to hurt you. I only was thinking about what is good for the church and I was requesting you to hand it back. It's good for you, good for the church, good for everybody. That is all that is there. I didn't envision it to become such a big problem and people in the church were also affected. What is this? But one thing I knew my conscience was clear and I knew I was making the decision in the best interest of the church. Yes, these people didn't want to give up that role. So it hurt them really bad. The person who was coming in was somebody who was already handling the role previously. So they didn't start one day one. So eventually they left the church. They went and started their own ministry outside. All those stuff happened. So it was a very painful experience. But the thing that helped me was, God, I made this decision with the future of the church in mind. That was all. I saw all these things. I took all these factors in and I did it for the best of the people. That's it. My heart is clean. I prayed. I struggled with it. My hands are clean. But yes, it was painful. Very difficult. That was a difficult situation. But we came through. Everything was going fine. Church people understood. Today, the thing I have one important thing was, I never spoke about them. I never spoke about the matter in the church. Other than making that one Sunday, making the announcement that we are going to make this change over the next one month. This is a change that's going to happen. Other than making that announcement and thanking them in front of everybody and praying for them. I never spoke about it in church. I never discussed it with anybody else. Only some people came and asked me personally. I explained to them why I made the decision, how I did it. Only for those who came to me personally and asked me, why not two couples came and asked. I explained it. So because of that, people in the congregation respected me so much more. They said, we saw how you journey through this. That you did not speak. You did not say anything bad. Even though there was a repercussion, you didn't speak about it. You didn't speak bad. You never did it. We saw how you journey through it. And we respect you for it. So the congregation itself. They all stayed. Any other questions? Sorry, there was a long answer to your question. Any other questions? All right. So the last piece there on page 27 was how do we pastor church staff? So here's a kind of a funny situation maybe that the people who are working in the church, they are church staff, but they're also congregation members. So in one way you are their leader or a boss. So you say that, but you're also their pastor. So how do you handle both roles? So it's very clear in the office when I'm talking to you about your work, I'm talking to you as a boss or your employer or whatever you want to look at it. If you come to me with a personal problem, okay, then I'm speaking to you as a pastor. I will speak to you with care, love and share the word and dignity, et cetera. But when it comes to work, I'm speaking to you as an employer. So that is very clear somehow. We've been able, in the church office, we've been able to manage both because it is true. They're also part of the congregation. They also have personal and spiritual things that need to be addressed. But at the same time, you have to talk about work. And so to see both roles and to handle both roles is important. And thankfully everybody in the staff have understood it and they're able to journey well together. Okay, so let's wrap for today. We'll close in prayer. There are no more questions. I hope these things are, you know, you find these things useful and things that you could take and, you know, use in your own ministry and get free to ask any further questions that are. Okay, but somebody close in prayer and then we'll discuss this. Anyone could pray. That's great. Dear heavenly Father, we come to you under the name of Jesus. Thank you for this day. We thank you for the class that we had. Jesus. But we thank you for everything that we learned on how to handle employees and stuff. God, I just pray that you help us to always have the focus on you and to walk in wisdom and to love everyone around us. You be the wisdom and you carry this Jesus into the hardest situation and through everything. We thank you for Pastor Ashish for teaching us all these beautiful practical things from the Bible. God, we just give you all the glory and as we step out into ministry, as we step out and meet people and handle them, Jesus, whatever we have learned, hold the spirit, you remind us so that we can handle this situation in the best way with you. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen. Amen. Thank you everyone. Thank you for being part of the class. Enjoy the rest of the day. See you again next week. Speak. Spun.