 Good afternoon, this is Senate Judiciary 1245 p.m. on the 12th of May. We're discussing a Letter of intent to the governor from representative grad myself regarding the use of force bill S1 H 145 and the sections having to do with Citizens right to defend oneself When you've prepared a document for us to look at I believe and perhaps Are you able to share it on the screen or oh, yes, I can definitely share it. I just sent it to Peggy, but She probably just hasn't gotten it yet. So I'll share my screen by the way, this is Senate Judiciary. We're joined by Representative grad and represent Blumann from the House Judiciary community as well as Jennifer Morrison representing Department of Public Safety. So, Brynn, you've got the letter. Yep, so can everybody see this the letter on their screen? Yes Okay so this draft letter is to respond to the letter that you've received from The governor on May 11th regarding their comes the administration's concerns with H 145 and specifically the Justifiable homicides changes in that in that bill. So this letter essentially provides that There is a common law there are common law defenses of self-defense and defense of others and that second paragraph There outlines how the court has analyzed those common law defenses and what the requirements are for them and The letter is pretty straightforward. It just provides that those common law defenses, which the court has found Exists and can be raised by a person who intervenes when there is a Violent crime happening Those offenses are available to be raised and each one 45 doesn't change that fact it doesn't Eliminate those defenses at the common law and it doesn't have the effect of limiting their application either So I'll let the committee read it if you'd like you can zoom in a little Think it does what the governor asked It would be signed by representative grad myself. Is that correct and that's how it's drafted now. Yes, okay And I think that's fine. I don't know if they need this the letter was originally addressed to the speaker and the president pro tem As well as senator Representative grad myself, maybe you could CC them Yeah, maybe it'd be better to cart Sure, I'll do that Sometimes when I write letters like this for our committee, I Sign it for the committee by with my name as chair and then For the committee so that it's clear that the whole committee. I don't know if you want to do that or not I don't think house judiciary is that the Okay Any comments? Particularly interested does this meet? Chief Morrison Thank you senator I for the record. I'm Jennifer Morrison policy director for the Department of Public Safety I'm a bit out of my wheelhouse here I'm going to try and play devil's advocate and assume that there might be alternate interpretations of Of what what what h-145 does or doesn't do relative to the common law defense Obviously we want to resolve this the governor to sign h-145 So I I was under the impression from the governor's council that that they were looking for a Fix and I think the letter that you're presenting Basically says there's no fix needed and I'm not Which is correct, so I'm not sure how we resolve that I'm a little confused by the governor's letter because I I read it to be asking us Just to clear up any ambiguity in terms of is that posted on our web page Peggy The governor's letters on our web page, correct Yes, it is as well as this letter I'm merely I'm pointing out that it appears they asked for a fix and the response letter is that there is no fix needed if I'm reading the letter that Bryn presented correctly Think about it clarifies To approve this bill I request your written assurance that a clarification of intent will be adopted Effective on passage that makes it clear. This was not intended to modify the defenses of self-defense or defensive others I think the letter meets that test. I Defer to you guys and your expertise like I said, I'm a bit out of my wheelhouse. I just wanted to take a little bit of a What if there are differing legal opinions approach? The only other thing that I could think we could do is pass legislation and that would have to be in probably S 97 the miscellaneous judiciary bill which not be ready for Anytime in the near one Hopefully be ready fairly shortly, but it's not ready to In the time that the governor has to either sign or not sign Senator Baruth I With respect to the chief and to the governor You know, I think there's a separation of powers Question here We went through our entire process We sent the governor a bill that we agreed on house and Senate and the governor expressed concerns and wanted a clarification of intent So we've done a kind of extraordinary extra process to generate that intent but if what the governor is seeking is that we Rewrite the bill after our committee has already been Officially shut down for the year then I think he's asking for too much, but I didn't read his letter That way I read it the way the chair did which is that he wanted a clarification of intent and this is Something that can be put on file and referred to later on Senator Ben Agree with Philip. I think he was looking for a statement of our intent I think the record has been established of what our intent is both through this letter and through these discussions For the edification of the public. I'd like to ask Brynn a simple question if I might Brynn the example I used earlier today of the unfortunate woman in Burlington who was going through a Series of injuries that led to her death I posed the question if I approached from behind the perpetrator with a tire iron and I swung it in your opinion Would I be protected With the stat the bill as it now reads Yes under the common law defense of defense of others you okay, you could raise that That is all that I'm looking for mr. Chair, and I believe the governor is Also looking for that statement. So thank you And I and I would further state that it was our intent when we drafted this bill if a situation such as the one with mr. Aubrey down in Georgia or somebody was in a building under construction and used to Stop for two people who had shotguns and then shot and killed them that is not Something that Would be permissible That was what we were looking at in terms of our well not Saying that you can shoot somebody just because you think they're doing something Senator Nick I just would like to ask Brynn So where will this other than between the parties here and the governor and his staff Where will this be located if someone some years hence wants to see it? Other than the letter So though it's a part of the record now It's posted to your committee webpage And it's and it's now a part of the a part of the official record for the file each one 45 file So I just have one This representative grad Actually, um, I think senator Nika you were muted. So I was just one Brynn was answering it I'm not sure if I'm you do myself in the middle of that but you said I was wondering is that the archives or you know, where do you find? legislative intent So it will be a part of the file in the archives and it will also be a part of the record As it's been posted to your committee webpage, which is maybe more easily accessible for people Okay, thank you Representative grad Yeah, thank you. I I'm still concerned in terms of understanding and making sure that we are addressing what the governor Use the words clarification be adopted and so I don't know when I think of it Of adopted. I think more of legislation So I just and I was I was hoping that during this um meeting Jen that you would you would be able to advise us on to whether you know, and I understand it's out of your your wheelhouse, but I You know, we're trying very hard to get it right and we know how important this legislation is to um to dps So I was hoping that we could get a understanding of what The application be adopted upon passage Thank you. I wish I had more information for you, ma'am, but um, I I don't I I think that the letter Is a great next step and I certainly appreciate what senator baruth pointed out about the process has run its course I mean, we were satisfied with it as well coming out of Both the house and the senate so I think we do the best we can and if there is Truly a fix rather than just a statement of intent needed then that will have to be dressed down the road in a in another mechanism But I do believe that advancing For the governor's signature is of paramount importance right now senator baruth so um I think if you were to ask the governor, of course the governor would prefer that we change the bill um And that's the case with many many bills that we send the governor And it is up to the governor to figure out Given his constitutional options What he's going to do I don't think anybody believes that the governor is going to veto this bill Especially over this particular um Thing that's now been clarified But I but I think if we adopt the stance of well, let's wait to decide to see what governor scott would like I can tell you Probably that governor scott would prefer a bill worded differently But you know, it's again, it's The province of the legislature to work out what the bill looks like and then the the governor Decides whether to veto we've we've bent over backwards today to supply the record Clarifying what what we believe So I I would hate to see us leave this meeting with A follow-on question. Is this okay? And then Contemplate further action if the governor would prefer more action I I agree with that. I wanted to point out that peggy It'll be with the digital files we send to the archives as part of the cip docs. We do not send papers anymore this Senator white I think we should just Make a decision right now to support this letter It clearly talks to the intent and joe's comment that this letter along with the Discussion around intent that is part of the record forever and ever and ever Is enough to satisfy the governor and While he can't be certain that it will satisfy the governor it seemed to me that he was Relatively sure And I think we should just support this Right now and just send it off and get on with it. I agree with any longer. I agree with senator white. I'm ready to sign Unfortunately, I don't have I don't know how to sign the letter I I will leave that to you. I have to go to my other committee that meets I do too, but I just wanted to explain that That My signature has been just provided Okay, mine too. Just be thankful be thankful dick. You don't have to worry about odyssey file and serve That's another matter for another day committee Representative grad representative laman chief morrison And peggy thanks And brinn particularly thanks for the Yeah, quick turn around