 Hello and welcome to the drum history podcast. I'm yours Bart van der Zee and today I am honored to be joined by Brandon green to talk about bio Mechanical drumming Brandon welcome to the podcast bar. Thank you so much for having me. It's truly an honor and I'm very excited to be here Yeah, man This is a cool one you yourself are a YouTuber and do podcasting and if people are watching this on YouTube you have a very legit setup And we're both have like, you know the radio mics going and stuff. So it's pretty cool So Brandon, why don't we just jump in here and can you explain what being a biomechanically based drummer means and Then we'll go into like, you know, how people can take that and apply it to their own drumming and all kinds of cool stuff So what is that? Yeah, huge cannon worms to jump in and I'm super excited about this So biomechanics essentially if we think about that, you know, I'm a big nerd. I like call myself a biomechanically based Sound like a superhero, right? It sounds cool. No, but Biomechanics is the study of mechanical laws relating to the human body or biological systems And we've got these incredible mechanical laws Thanks to Newton and many others if you go deeper into thermodynamics, it gets crazy But we have these basic rules of that in Newtonian physics We have the rule of force mass times acceleration the rule of Acceleration or inertia so an object wants to maintain its current state So people that things are that are not moving want to stay still and things that are moving will keep moving unless there's something that slows It down and then we have reaction forces Well, we take those three mechanical laws and we apply that to what we understand of being the human body There is a ton that we can unpack to think about how do we make sure that this thing that we have is pile of flesh this combination of crazy electrical Neurological Mechanical skeletal muscle sensory somatic systems all work together to help make sure you have the best experience on the drums Putting aside all that fluff for me being a biomechanically based drummer means someone who is efficient You're doing everything you can to be risk averse and optimizing your setup and your practice and your playing And something we'll talk about today called hormesis to make sure you get the most of this thing that we love I mean like without going too deep the reason why I even talk about this professionally. I am busy I got a career that helps to pay for my life I have a fitness job with a gym that I'm the owner of called strad intral performance We got ten trainers that are all thinking in the same biomechanics way I help old people with aches pains problems and advanced diseases. I love it I got another business called fitness pro mentors where we help business entrepreneurs especially in the fitness landscape grow their business, but the truth is is One of my good mentors, you know like okay, pardon me for jumping Remember you were in high school and there was like that one drummer that was in high school or college or Elementary school that you looked up to in town. That was like the guy or the girl. Can you think of that person? Yeah What they look like who were they? There was we actually looked kind of similar and we ended up playing in a band percussion and drums later But it was an older guy. His name was Andy Ward. I'll give him a shout out but just had a very good feel and You know had a good flow and was just fun to watch So there was a guy for me named Matt Dunn and he actually works at Roland Canada now He's awesome dude. I love him if Matt Dunn if you check this out, man I'll let you but I watched him play man and he was like he got me fired up He had like a very blink 182 style and you know in high school He had tattoos like he was the early tattoo adopter if I mean, right? So I wanted to play and I copied him like I was obsessed with him for a long time until I found my own style Well, like eight years ago. He posted on Facebook this thing that said f my back I hurt my back from playing the drums, right? Screw the drums my back screwed forever and I was like well, this is wrong Right, there's no way that this art vessel that we have this thing that we create so much music and our own Meditative mechanical practice doesn't make sense to me that this thing should ruin your life And that's what he talked about So that's what took me taking all my biomechanical and motor learning knowledge and started applying it to drummers Because truth is I just want you and anyone that's listening to this to play drums forever and make art forever It's interesting too because they don't teach you Most teachers don't teach you how to take care of your body correctly while you're playing because maybe they don't know as a teacher you know, so Let's just maybe hop in here and give some like what's like the 101 of how to go at this and and be better about Treating your body correctly while you're drumming Yeah, you know what man? I was thinking about this and I've created this idea that I'm gonna try to help illustrate that I call the three levels of biomechanics for drumming and I'm gonna try and break it down because I think that there's a foundational rudimentary level rudimentary rudimentary level of mechanics that we all need or we are not gonna make it on this thing and then it Gets a little bit more advanced You know, it doesn't take someone to have a very mechanical eye to look at late Neil Perth's drum sets and feel Phil Collins drum sets and see like from a distance from a performance perspective By far one of the most incredible drum kits you've ever seen right Neil Perth's drum set with those eight inch toms over here Yeah sends all the way over to 18s that are like literally behind him outside of view But if you also think about the body forgetting about any of this biomechanic stuff If I hung out and I turned my torso to the left as far as I could with my arms out like this And I hung out in this yoga-like position for a minute two or five No one most people won't be comfortable being there for a long period of time because there's a ton of torque a ton of tension Our body can't go much further and our structures are very close to end ranges like our spine is turned the car door Is as open as far as it can go. We're knocking on the edge And so for a lot of those guys and I remember the Dave Silva I think the old drummer for corn a lot of these guys have stopped playing drums or stopped because of back pain Right Phil Collins back pain Neil Perth back pain Dave Silva also played a ginormous drum set And I'm not saying that everyone that plays drums can have a bad backs But I would say that when you have a large drum set that's not set up in a way that's surrounding your body properly We got a big issue and that's why honestly, you know shout out to you I love your podcast it became obsessed with it because the first modern drummer article I wrote me and you're sick You're sick. You got a green wall It's a light it can be any color I want Right, there's there's a the first modern drummer article I wrote reference the history of the drum set because it's such a weird instrument that we We took a drum marching snare drum. We took a bass drum that we used to smack with mallets We used to take smashing cymbals and we like kind of put it around us to make it work for us And it's this weird thing that we put instruments around our body and made our body work for the instruments Hmm, that's interesting, right? None of it was really based off convenience DW made a throne that adjusted a little bit Well, that was a smart innovation They didn't even think about that before same with a snare stand same with a pedal Yeah What we need to be thinking about the level one of biomechanics to be someone that's healthy drummer Is we need to make sure that we're building the drum set around our body And if you're not building the thing around your body, you're going to have issues Well, what's like I mean so like just kind of if everyone in there, you know Mine's I can like paint a picture of sitting down We've all set up a drum set and you know You put down your kick and then you maybe set up your snare and your floor tom put your toms on pull things in and then step up And what what are some tips maybe on how to do that where you're making the drum set work for you? Do you have any tips and tricks of like keeping your leg at 90, you know, we're not doing that And that's exactly what I'm talking about right because that's the thing And this is the thing that's tough with this and we'll just give you a tip right away But sound bites like that that our drum teachers have heard right you got to sit with your hip at 90 degrees We have in in just normal body nomenclature so many things that we say like that You have to sit with your hip at 90 degrees your knee at 90 degrees your feet flat You're right and that these are just Pre-choreograph sound bites that mean something like you say it and someone hears it sounds familiar and then we adjust to work around it But that's not a really great example So I'll tell you what the simplest thing is introducing an idea called active range of motion And I did talk I've talked about this a few times but anyone that's listening this and has never heard me speak I encourage you to practice this because if you work with this one principle Everything else starts to fall in place So it makes sense that if we have a joint. Oh perfect I have some spine right for the camera here right if I have a joint system and two different bones that come together Right, we all kind of get the idea that two bones come together when those bones come together that creates a joint That's called the synovial joint and we all get that if I bend my elbow in and go out There's an amount of motion that I can do and I get to one end where my arm is bent all the way And I can't move it any further I go all the straight I can't go any further and that's either because my muscles can't lengthen or shorten anymore or The way I want people thinking about it just to help to make this simple is bonus hitting it hitting bone sooner Sure, right if I turn this thing boom this little vertebrae for the camera I turn the vertebrae bumps into it can't go any further the car doors open as far as it can go Yeah, well drum thrown height and figuring out where you should sit I think is the most important place to start you can kind of get around everything else But if you're sitting in one place for 20 minutes to two hours, that's a big problem And if we think about the actual anatomy of the hip, which is why I got good old doctor B here Which on camera? I have a gigantic skeleton. So this is fun But if I actually think about this and I pull the leg up as high as I can You can see on camera and you could imagine that if I pull my leg up from a seated position There's going to be a point where the bone the femur hits another bone And I physically cannot go any further because there is architecture and structure in the way Yeah, that makes sense, right? Yes, of course You can't lift your leg higher because you're you're hitting your your inner your hip flexor area is just going too hot You can't go any further right so this is the thing so if you're in a seated position listening to this or you're someone Who's listening to this go sit on your drum thrown What I want you to do is sit on your drum thrown and even with the camera I'm sitting high enough that you can't see this but what I want you to try and do is from the positions Where your pedal is can you lift your thigh straight up towards the ceiling and can you lift your other thigh straight towards the ceiling? But all I'm doing with the skeleton if you're watching is I'm lifting my leg up Not from the side but from right over top of the pedal to see can I lift my leg off of the ground? If you cannot lift your leg off of the ground your throne is too low and Truth is if you pick up there's a biomechanics book I got behind me here called Kappanji all around lower body Biomechanics and it's all around forces and anatomy and structure Not everyone can even lift their leg from a 90 degree position Some people don't even have 90 degrees of hip flexion available. So if I don't have that joint motion available or 20% of People don't have that range and we're using 90 degrees as our stereotypical soundbite We're sitting too low. So if we can assess our range of motion to ensure the amount of mobility that our body has is available We can then work within that range Right because if I take my shoulder and I go from my side of my body to lift all the way up to 180 degrees I know the extreme of zero to 180 the zero and the 180 are as far as the door can go But everything in the middle is pretty good Yeah, if I had to do something I wouldn't want to I just changed, you know I'm terrified of Heidspart. Terrified. Yeah, we got 25 foot ceilings. I just changed the fluorescent light I have my arms over my head My arms got way more tired and sore than they would if I did something in front of me because I'm at an end range Hmm. So it besides all the talking, you know, lots of explaining explaining here You want to check your active range of motion to find out how much Active control do you have to move your body in the position that you're gonna play the drums? Does that make sense or does that sound crazy? No, it makes perfect sense And I think that back when I worked as a drum teacher I would find that kids or people or friends or whoever when you set up a drum set It's almost like you're kind of like all right the thrones at this level now I'm just gonna set up everything around it and then you're sort of like You're compensating the whole time if the throne isn't at the right level your your snare is You're gonna be off. It's just it's just getting that bass level correct height for comfort I think it's hugely important and then also just remembering that maybe get a memory lock or piece of tape or something and Market so you remember, you know, measuring tape man. I mean, I tell you like where people ask me What is the one thing like you have one recommendation for my gig bag? I said put a measuring tape in there and on the measuring tape market snare height drum throne height I don't have mine in front of me, but I remember it like my snares I'm pretty sure it's 20 the top edge of my snare is that the the side toward me is 27 inches and the part That's away from me is 27 and a half. There's a reason we could talk about why but it's easy because then that way I'm not like just you know yanking it and seeing if it feels good I know that if I'm playing a five and a half inch or seven inch deep snare I have to adjust it to make sure the top where it's gonna be mirrors gonna be Whatever it yeah, yeah, which is cool. This is kind of cool and I this is like It's related but it might be getting ahead But I always used to tell people and I mean I was guilty of that of being a teacher at Sam Ash And I would be telling people like certain things like That that that I kind of just heard but one of them which I think is probably correct That was the importance though of breathing Obviously is hugely important but being open because I found over the years and I get shoulder pain Obviously, it's probably from the drums It's also probably just from the you know the life of working on a computer or something like that And just kind of sitting at a desk but The the the importance of that of getting air flowing through your body seems hugely important And then I feel like it the way you sit properly Goes hand-in-hand with that where you you're set up set up better to be breathing better and all that stuff, right? Yeah, 100% the breathing thing is an interesting one But I would say and that's a different segue But on the mechanical end you talked about just like sitting up tall and being open sure for a period of time I was really obsessed with the symmetry idea that Mike Mangini portrayed with his gigantic symmetrical drum set And it wasn't just he was popular because it's a cool crazy looking drum set But to me the idea like I practiced open-handed playing for a solid three or four years I tried to play all left-lead and there's actually some interesting reasons why I don't think that's the best way from a musical perspective to play but from a body perspective it made sense to me because Turning having your right hand over top of your left hand You know you are in some extremes of shoulder position Yep, and you're also inherently restricted as many of these open-handed guys have talked about if you want to actually play other Instruments hence why open-handed playing makes a lot of sense. Yeah, but coming back to the breathing and the openness I'll share one kind of like mechanical idea is that Using a drumstick as a prop for everyone so this makes kind of fun So if you do have you ever exercised and done squats or something like that Yeah, yep, right if you had to pick a position of the squat Right the top of the squat being standing in the bottom where your legs are far apart your knees are head and your butt back And you had to hold it for five minutes, which would be less work standing straight up or squatting and holding at the bottom I'd probably say standing straight up, right? And that's like the brain of course the center of your mass right this the where you are the heaviest is Falling through all of your joints and that distance that we use to talk about torque when you talk about torque There's force right which is mass times acceleration and then the difference between what makes something have more torque or less Torque is something called the moment arm, which is a measurement tool It's essentially the distance where there's a 90 degree angle way more complicated than that I will just kind of leave it at that sure when I squat to the bottom my knees are in front My hips are back and my knees are further in front my hips are further back than when they are standing Which means that there's more distance from those joints There's more torque when there's more torque. My body has to work harder that kind of idea. Yeah I'm sitting at the drum set right and this is where you know, buddy rich You know amazing, but he had some pretty terrible posture. You read my mind. We had to talk about that today Yeah, yeah And so, you know, I don't know buddy and I'm sure he probably would have thrown something at me if I ever commented on it based off of the history I've heard of him But if I'm sitting up tall like this and I have all my body weight if I'm sitting up tall in the camera everybody I have my body weight going down through all of my joints through my spine my neck my hips I'm not working that hard. So forgetting about what the right posture is If everything is stacked on top one of the piece like we're standing There's going to be less mechanical work on my body. Yeah, if I even just do this and push my head forward Now there's all this distance From my spine to where the center of mass of my head is and we can even measure it pretty much Like I don't know I from the camera But it's like six inches of distance compared to when it's right over top of it So that means that all the muscles on the back of my neck have to work harder And then I get to buddy rich posture where I'm leaning all the way forward Totally just over. Yeah, it's kind of like almost a colloquial posture for cool jazz guys Like they all kind of do it, right and the truth is people have the in the defense of them They would say but it's buddy and it worked and he played great Now would the argument be that he would play even better if he had more of a modern throne that he could probably lower or I guess Raised depending on how he's sitting and and and get more position correctly. I mean, you know, the argument of it worked for them I mean, how many of our favorite drummers who? Did drugs and were exceptional and passed away real early, right? Does that mean that we're going to all take cocaine and you know, so if it worked for them, that's great And buddy absolutely expressed himself in an incredible way The only way we would know if buddy would be a different drummer to Compare is if we could do a twinning study with buddies twin and we had one that sat tall and one that sat rounded and that's Obviously impossible. Yeah, but I will say that if we look at the anecdotal evidence we have so far People who sit forward rounded and with really low posture with low thrown heights Typically have more back problems more hip problems and more sensations They don't like in their body then the ladder of people who are sitting up tall and erect Art is interesting, right? Because you can be in any position of your body to create art But the truth is do we position our body in a way that we can create that art forever? And that's where you know, buddy's not here unfortunately to ask him this but I'd be interested, you know If he made it to ninety a hundred would he still be playing? Yeah, I mean and it's it's that longevity thing of yes, you can you can do it now and be you know Great, but you're just slowly Causing problems and I'm guilty of that and I need to I'm a big believer in like I forget who I heard say it but like if you're like Want to go out and exercise and maybe lose some weight or something you need to look at it as Don't be like I need to join a gym. I need to buy a bunch of clothes I need to do all this stuff like go walk for five minutes and then tomorrow walk for six minutes And then the next day seven minutes like that that kind of don't overdo it So for me, I feel like I do hunch over a little bit I end up editing drum history pretty much every night on my couch like slumped over with like YouTube videos up What kind of in the background? I mean I think is it is it something you would recommend and even sitting on the kit just to kind of always have in the Back of your mind to just kind of like alright wait hold on straighten up a little bit and just kind of try to better yourself like that like Like to chip away at it and make yourself better a little bit each day You know, we all know that if we ate broccoli every day that it would make us healthier And you know the easy answer is yes, we should all be conscious of our body But I find that working with people for so long Especially and I'll say this with drummers anyone that's listening to this is not to be a slight at you But I know that we're all here thinking about art and music with less body conscious unless you've had a problem Right if someone's had a problem, they're always hyper aware of other body feels what I would say is practice setting the drum set up around you As best as you possibly can so you don't have to think about it because anything that Subtracts your thought and attention even 1% 0.5% from the thing that you're trying to do will decrease in the quality of that If I'm talking to you and my wife sends me a text message and I glance over and come back for a split second That is just enough attention subtraction that it takes away from the thing better example on the drum set I've been working on playing faster doubles with my right foot It's all good until my foot gets tired and then when it gets tired I get distracted and I go oh now it's tired and then I start flubbing more and then I get annoyed that I'm tired and Flubbing and it turns into this cascade of effects So the truth the simple answer is how do we mind? How do we set up the NASA star control system to be as perfectly ergonomic for us as possible So we don't have to think about it Yeah, and I think that I was watching a video the other night I think it was Jay Weinberg doing like it was like a drum cam, you know slipknot video or something and there's so many great Heavy metal drummers and the death metal whatever all these different kinds of metal it's Mind-boggling to me as someone who really likes metal But like I'm not great at like blast beats and all the different kind of you know crazy metal stuff you can do to maintain that kind of intensity For five minutes at a time well for two hours really, you know If you're doing a concert or something and have it not be just like you're so Because when I do it and I've I've played metal with friends where I almost feel like I'm like I don't want to say pretending, but I'm just kind of getting my way through a song just Like to be able to there must be a secret and of course I can watch like youtube videos on it on how to be relaxed with it But I think metal guys are a good case study of You really got to be cognizant of how your body is set up and to be able to do that You know thousand mile an hour Blast beats and not just burn your hands out Yeah, well, I mean it comes down and that kind of leads into my second point for the biomechanics thing But I it's funny you say that and I forgot to make a note about this But this is great if anyone wants to really work on mastering ergonomics I would say try to set up the most ginormous version of drum your drum set you possibly can and make everything feel comfortable Because if you can set up like your own version of one of those metal guy drum sets like when you got like the 8 to 14 16 by 18 And two sides and you got they you know, they're setting things up to save energy So that way they don't have to reach and crash right did it and they don't reach like 16 inches up Right, they just like move their hand over and they get a quick crash to move on to the next section So that's all efficiency That's also mechanics and that's super cool if you can actually figure out How to set up your drum set in that way like Derek roadies drum set. I remember I was you know I was one of those pearl drum form guys from way back in the day. I don't know if anyone remembers that Hala pdf, right? Yeah. Yeah. I'm still go there. Yeah Yeah, but Derek Derek roadie was like, you know a guy at that time like and his drum set I remember always looking at it and it was like it was like a wave of drums Like it was like snare to toms and then slightly more angle to the cymbals And then those china's way up there were slightly more angled and it was one smooth So that's a great way to plastic practice figuring out your ergonomics if you want a practical because if you can't set up something In a crazy spot. It doesn't feel good. I mean, there's no point in playing it Uh, yeah, that's kind of interesting or terry bozio bozio. I mean the the there's almost the like Like over the top where he he does it great and he makes it seem pretty comfortable and uses it But you're using it as a part of your image of having this mega drum set Where things are above you and all that stuff. Um, but it's still you don't want your Thing that's your image to then end up being what what really really hurts you, you know 100% like do you ever like for fun like examine and I'm and and I'm saying it in the most respectful way possible But like someone like phil Collins who's had such terrible back problems that he's literally he can't play the drums anymore really do you ever uh Look at footage and examine and think maybe like what could have caused those problems Yeah, I hate saying it more than I more than I like Um, I remember neil pert because where I live neil pert before passing lived within a 45 minute radius of me He was pretty secretive. I don't know where he lived My father was actually my actually it's my my stepdad and it's my stepdad's drum that I got here But he's basically my dad. Uh, he managed the cemetery and the cemetery he managed was where neil's family was I know he's relatively close And I I did everything I could through a modern drummer to try and figure out how to like just get him a letter To talk to him about that stuff because I've watched when his back started going And I heard he wasn't going to go on tour because of rush. It was probably because of other reasons I wanted to share something, you know, you watch if you watch old not to pick at him But old travis barker videos Because he plays such a like he's a long guy and he plays like relatively small like those old ocd drum sets Like they're relatively small when you watch him and he's keeping time on the left foot Right his left foot is coming off the pedal and going back down like huge motion Now anyone who's listening to this go watch one of his videos and watch his hip And then watch the side of his body where his obliques are and watch how much motion happens there And now He's doing good as far as we know But if you watch him bouncing his leg and seeing him Squishing on that one side that shows a bunch of motion that you don't typically see in other drummers Now if you forget about travis barker and we just thought about the skeleton and we thought about When he lifts that leg what it means for this part of the spine to be squishing You know probably a thousand times in a three to four minute song probably less than that But it's a lot. Um, you can imagine how much extra force and stress there is on the left side of his back And I bet you we'll never get this but if we got an x-ray of his lumbar spine I bet you his spine looks a little different on the left side versus the right Sure So I've done it a bunch to be honest with you I've thought about going on instagram like posting like examining pro drummers and talking There was one of omar hakeem Where he was sitting super high and I was going to draw some Torque angles and talk about that moment arms and talk about that a bit But I don't want to start poking at these guys because they're all doing their thing I mean, but that's an interesting thought of like You're you're coming at it from an angle of wanting to be productive and helpful But I see where you'd be hesitant because it's kind of like, you know, we'll screw you dude You know what? I mean like like they're looking at it like it's very personal and it's like well You know, you don't want to attack them and But I think the way you're talking about it though is like we can all learn from this and and This kind of actually well before I forget I want to ask the question because talking about like travis barker and things like that and very flat drums I think we all know that he kind of everything's very flat and reaching forward which Um, I never really played that I my brother played in bands where his drummers would do that And I would sit on it and kind of be like this is fun for a little bit But I just didn't feel right to me what level of angle on the toms Do you think is I don't want to say best but like ergonomically best for your body because you can go too flat And then you're like bending your wrists. I mean, is there a perfect spot you think I don't think there's a perfect spot But I think there's a perfect range that you can set it within and flat both ways parallel to the ground and perpendicular to the ground Is not the way to do it Um, it's kind of why I brought a drumstick up is that so if you're watching anyone that's watching this Coming back to that idea of moment arm. There's something in mechanics You know, when you think of the story of david in goliath, right? He took a little sling and he threw the sling Right and through this little rock Well, when you throw a sling or do something like that where you take a satchel and you throw a stone You actually have to have the satchel at a 90 degree angle to the direction you want the rock to go Right, so you need to be right out to the side and the rock is going to go 90 degrees to the last point of application So with your drums when you hit something with a drumstick, right the drumstick is going to get reaction force Perpendicular to the tip of the stick So if I take a drumstick and a camera I got a drumstick I'm hitting a practice pad When I hit this the tip of the stick is going to try to go back Up at a straight angle. So if I hold it like this, it's going to try and go this way Well, that's good. We'll come back to that We need to be considering the position of the wrist when we do this So when we have snare drum in front of us and it's flat You can keep your wrist in a relatively neutral position coming back to the extremes of position we talked about I'm not too extended hitting the you know, the car door is not all the way open The car door is not a little closed. We're in a neutral spot. So if I'm absorbing force here My joint my technique my hands and the stick can all absorb some of that physics. That's good here When I reach further out in front of me It gets a little bit different because now I actually have to reach a little bit more And I actually end up in a greater position of wrist extension So now my wrist isn't a potentially more vulnerable position It's also Inefficient from the physics perspective of the mechanics because if I have that drum way out far And it's trying to travel back up to 90 degrees That means for me to hit it and get more energy. I actually have to use more of my arm Then the wrist I actually have to lift a little bit of everything to come back down The drumstick is going to try to travel up rather back towards me So if I have and this is where you see, I mean everyone kind of finds I don't want to say perfect angle But you see everyone's kind of between like this, you know, I'd say 25 and maybe 55 degree angle That's great because if I hit that at this angle where my arm's kind of out in front of me I'm still in the relatively neutral wrist position This stick's getting pushed back toward me rather efficiently rather than kind of up and away from me And saves my joints the old lars all rich flat toms in front of me that gets risky, right? He was a short guy and those toms were close to him Well, when he's hitting those toms you can look at those old videos and his wrist is all the way cocked back And he doesn't have much distance to generate power let alone absorb force So is there a perfect angle somewhere in between? This episode is brought to you by ghost note percussion Ghost note is run by my friend Jared Fallon who a lot of you guys probably remember from the recent orange county episodes And he did a great job on that Jared has over 15 years experience as a studio and touring drum tech He specializes in repairs restorations and modifications And he also builds really beautiful custom crafted drums of his own which I highly recommend you check out The thing that makes Jared pretty unique though is that he is great at doing Not only appraisals of unique drums So he'll give you a price for something that's kind of hard to put a number on But also he will track down and find Unique rare odd drums that other people can't seem to find and lastly he offers tech and tuning services for studio and live performances I'll put a link in the description of this episode But you can find him on instagram at ghost note underscore percussion That's ghost note underscore percussion or email him at jared dot falon falon At yahoo.com. It's jared dot falon at yahoo.com. I think though like the argument Which is not a good argument though is like For lars for travis barker. It looks kind of cool that style of pop punk with perfectly flat with your like Powder coated blue rims and your you know like you can see it's really cool looking and then Metal drum sets huge kind of flat angled, you know right at you very cool But again, I guess you just got to think more about the long term in a lot of these situations and I think of too of like, you know, it's Everything you've practiced your whole life on drumming you kind of have to like It's like it's not like you're throwing things away that you've always done you just need to like practice and like Work at it for a little bit to get comfortable with your new setup because there has to be a little bit of uh I don't say a learning curve, but like there has to be a little bit of like getting comfortable with the correct way Yeah, well, especially if it's different than what you've been if it's diametrically opposed to how you've been Yeah, there's a quote one of my mentors told me his name is tom pervis He was like one of the founders of bow flex and a consultant for nautilus. He's a brilliant guy But he said this great quote to me and it extends kind of into this and it's about sports Right, you have to decide are you going to sacrifice your body for the point? Are you going to sacrifice the point for the body? Right if tom brady goes out in a super bowl and he gets the super bowl winning point And snaps his arm in half and can't play football ever again, but he gets the he wins the super bowl He'll be remembered forever as a hero Everyone will remember him of how powerful and amazing that moment was But a lot of us are not tom brady in the super bowl Right a lot of us are trying to make a name for ourselves and be seen So we do big things to be seen and I work so many recreational hockey players that were trying to make it to the nhl And didn't because they threw themselves and did too too much Yeah for lars all rich phil Collins, you know pert they've selva whomever else All these guys are in the show business Show business and body business is a bit different There has to be in my biased opinion schism in between where you do cool looking stuff And you reconcile taking care of your body But a lot of these guys are doing the big thing to get the point and to be seen Travis Barker's flat symbols are not logical for lots of different reasons But he's not in that business right now working fine for him. He probably hasn't heard himself People love him. He created a brand I mean orange county drums literally made a bunch of money just because of the way that he set things up and blink 182s fame So it's interesting. Are you willing? So if you're listening to this and you're like, well this guy, what's he talking about? Are you going to set up your drum set so you can have this body forever? Or is there a chance that you're setting things up to look really cool and neat And they do look badass. I'm sure but it might sacrifice things in the long run. Yeah So I think all right, so that's all kind of uh, you know, we're talking about setting things up and preventative stuff I personally have had lower back pain for years and it's not all the time But it's it's like a thing where I remember picking up like, um, of course I had a hardware case bag Kind of thing that that had wheels But I was picking it up and I was like taking up the stairs and it's always that one little turn And then I feel like my back kind of went like like to the side and I like couldn't stand up straight and it was miserable I went to chiro to a chiropractor, which helped a lot, but um All right, so let's talk about now where some damage has been done We can for the sake of conversation talk about lower back, but there's obviously wrist. There's all there's neck There's tons of stuff that can happen How do you stop the the the issue that already is happening from getting worse? Obviously you change things but That it hurts. What do you do to make it better? Yeah, so in great question Super broad direction that we can go Yeah, um, but I'll I'll be the kind of devil's advocate and kind of talk about like the drummer Who's between 30 say like 30 plus and maybe has done a little bit of damage to one of their joints because herniated discs Uh, you know, I actually have gained like ganglion cysts where you get the the bump in on the back of the wrist Um carpal tunnel syndrome like all those things are a kind of a little common So you're a drummer you have some pains you got something you've been an x-ray You've seen this some stuff going on and you're afraid of making it happen again Well, so one It kind of comes back to the ergonomics thing and the active range of motion But it's a bit different the active range of motion I spoke about earlier was assessing how far your joint can go Relative to the position of your drums Well, if you have an ache a pain or a problem like for me I have ganglion cysts in the back of my wrist So that's little cysts in the back of my wrist that how much limit how much wrist extension I have So if you're looking I only have about 75 degrees of wrist extension And this is coming from me doing power lifting bench pressing when I was 20 years old Think and it was cool and smashing my wrist and you know, not knowing much at that point So I have limited wrist extension And I can't do push-ups pair on the ground with my wrist at 90 degrees because things hurt So what I had to do for a few years was one figure out how much motion I have here My old drum teacher was a jazz guy and he taught me rudimental drumming And he always had me do the hit and come up to 90 degrees And if I couldn't bring like do the full stroke and bring the drumstick back to 90 degrees to hold it for an accent stroke You know, he would criticize me. Well, I realized I actually physically can't go to 90 degrees anymore So that means that I'm going to be limited in how much extension I have And I have to work within that range So it means that the active range of motion I have is relative to where there is discomfort sensation or what I can do on that one side yeah, I mean and and I I think too that um For me and I like I guess I'm just using myself as a case study But I really know that everyone else a lot of other people are probably in this position of having the lower back pain and stuff And it's that well your back wouldn't hurt if you strengthen it And it's like oh, okay, and then the next day you're like, well, I'm not going to do that Like you just because it's it's work and it's time and there's kids and a baby and I feel like strengthening my back would help a lot, but then I'm what I'm taking from what you're saying though is Then know your limit don't push things may change you can still play great But if it's 90 mobility or whatever Don't Hammer on the last 10 and then make it worse. That seems kind of a You know something we can all do is just know our limit. Yeah, we'll tell you what let me We talked about the three levels of biomechanics. I told you the one which was ergonomics Let me go over the other two and then I'll carry back to the back pain because it kind of all stacks up Sure Because this is super important and it's kind of what I do with my practice with my clients every single day The second level is what I call hormesis management, which is extremely fancy sounding But hormesis essentially is the relationship between dose and response So dose response So if I don't know you from adam and you're listening to this I say go to the gym for the first time in your life Forget that you play drums for the first time right go sit on a drum set and I say play a basic rock beat I guarantee if you play for three seconds, you probably will not get physically tired at any point You will probably be able to do that and feel fine if you play the same basic rock beat it call 90 bpm Maybe slower. I don't know pick your bpm You'll probably get tired in your right hand at one point from playing those four notes Relatively the other foot in the hand that are only playing one right based on you know the whole one and three In the other hand's plan eighth notes playing a lot more notes Your right hand is probably going to start getting tired Well, you've never played for that length of time before so somewhere between the three seconds and the five minutes You did too much or you started to get to the end of what you're physically able to do There is that goldilocks zone for all things within our body right I can eat a certain amount of food if I eat too much I get full and I vomit right if I don't eat enough Right I get skinny right if I don't get enough sleep, you know, you're a dad You know how that goes right you get too much sleep other effects if I don't have enough physics in my body Like entering my body our body is really based off of gravity pushing down into it If I don't have enough gravity and physics pushing into me I'll start losing muscle shrinking and atrophying Especially over the age of 30 because in biology after the age of 30 senescence We start not regenerating as fast on the other they can do if I do too much Right, this is the guys that go to crossfit and do like a thousand hours of class They get injured right they look shredded, but they're all beat up So hormesis management is like level two of biomechanical drumming in that you need to identify How if you want to be really good at drums forever How many hours a week do you drum or are required to drum if you have a gig including practice? And are you doing can you handle that right now without hurting? And if you cannot Where do we figure that out? Do we need to drop back on how much drumming you're doing? Do we need to build up the endurance using strategic resistance exercises an area that will get you stronger So you can handle the basics of what you do and truth is bar This is where most drummers end up getting hurt is that they physically are not they don't have the endurance To even sustain the basic level of drumming that they do gigging drummers are a perfect example Guys who are on tour who play three hour shows and they do five shows That's 15 hours of intense high energy drumming playing at 110 percent Let alone poor sleep let alone poor eating conditions let alone practice if they do that let alone random jams I don't know so the hormesis is that Have you built up enough endurance in your body to even tolerate that level of drumming? Yeah, it seems like it's a part of like Like the more you do something like you start off just being like i'm going to play the drums Great i'm going to practice a little bit, but then from there you have the Um, i'm going to get really into learning about gear. I'm going to learn in our case here And if you're listening to the podcast i'm going to learn about the history of the drums because it it's all really fun And helps me it's a part of my practice That that what you're seeing with the hormesis sounds like a big part of the practice too of just Like knowing your limits and balancing things and it being you know not pushing it too far But but also setting personal goals to like get a little bit better each day Yeah, it's just it kind of digs deeper at at what drumming really is, you know Yeah, and there's you know, this gets super nerdy and you talked about some psych stuff earlier But like there's this thing called the pomodoro method which is like a learning method And it's like taking you know a few different items of study and studying for 15 or 20 minute increments Basically at a time so that way you never overload and stress one area of brain out But you can take like you know drumming you can take paradigms for 20 minutes double bass for 20 minutes Uh, I don't know music theory for 20 minutes And then you can cycle back because you won't have idea fatigue and you won't have strained that part too much And it's kind of the anyway, that's a whole other segment. That's kind of fun I like that a lot because I I get I get like that even with doing the show where you you do too much of one thing and and um, It's just it's you're just not actually digesting it correctly and I find that with watching I love watching like documentaries and stuff But sometimes I finish and I go what I can't remember a lot of that as opposed to like Reading a little bit at a time you really like Fully digest it better and leave more knowledgeable like I'll come back to this third level of the biomechanical drumming stuff But like motor learning 101 you would be better if you had 60 minutes to practice You'd be better to practice the same thing six time 10 minutes a day Was spacing in between than to do a full 60 minutes in a row because you can potentiate it you can stimulate that Pattern let it marinate go back to it Restimulate it go back restimulate it rather than just dumping it all at once You're gonna water a garden You could dump all the water at one time or you could give it a little bit of rain throughout the day Well, mother nature does a great job of sporadically raining it. Well, why don't we do the same thing with our body? Anyway, that's more nerdy stuff, but I love it No, and it's reminding me. This was a long time ago, but Stephen Taylor did a great drummer Did an episode way back about I think it was the history of practice or something and God, it's gonna drive me nuts. I can't remember but he was talking about something that wraps like your your neurotransmitters as you basically practice and then you take a break Myelin my I forget what it was. It wraps Yes around your like, you know I don't know the right even words to use for it nerve endings or whatever But it it's like it you get better by taking breaks is kind of what I remember from that Yeah, oh, so, you know, it's the neatest thing is that there's two different like when you start learning something new Brand new it's called. I mean I'm gonna get super nerdy here but there's short-term potentiation and long-term potentiation And short-term potentiation is if like you said that you just learned I'm imagining I said the word hormesis and you're like hormesis cool That's the first time you heard that word the first time you say it you heard it now You've retained it. It's in your brain. You got it, right? We stopped talking you go home raise your kids You're like, what was that word that Brandon said and if you don't revisit it You're gonna forget it But if you say it again and a couple more times it becomes a caught part of your vernacular and it just becomes Soaked in so on the short-term potentiation and there is like a quick Electrical stimulus that goes through when you do something new that is basically your body Experiencing this thing for the first time Right your neurons are firing potentially in a new way, especially if you're doing a new rudiment You're visualizing it. You're hearing it. You're interpreting it and your body acutely Acutely like the toast hub is experiencing this thing for the first time If it doesn't experience it again You kind of just go to the wayside and it just gets forgotten about because your body dumps Redundant information to focus on stuff that's more important But then you do it again and now that electrical pathway Kind of like driving down a grassy road that's never been like down a grassy knoll It's never been driven Right, you knock down some of the grass but the grass starts to pop back up Then you do it again You knock down the grass a little bit more and knock it down a little bit more And then suddenly you're at a place where that grass is no longer there and you've actually created a road And in your brain those myelin sheaths and those new neural connections You actually create anatomical changes where the nerves actually literally wire together And this is where you and your audience have probably heard of neuroplasticity Where your neurons actually like wire together in a new way And it's why when you see I don't know but someone playing something insanely complex like an orchestration between all four limbs Like how the heck are they playing with thomas lang when I watch him play some of those like crazy singles Between all of his limbs or matt garski or vergeal denoting like that's insane But their brain has become so well interpreted has interpreted information so well that the brain doesn't see it as You know four different limbs working together It sees it as one piece of information that connects it together and they don't even think You know right hand right foot left hand left foot, you know, they don't think of that. They just think this thing This thing and that's where thinking rhythmically even you know getting to a whole makes a whole difference Right sitting there and going i'm going to play dot dot dot dot dot Well, if I know that rhythm it's easy for me to orchestrate that between each foot and each limb And that's just another whole learning thing, but anyway, I'm already I love this No, it's interesting and and I I think that it's kind of sometimes you get stuck in practicing the same things You're always you're good at but then there's like a for me. I'm sure everyone has a different feeling It's a distinct feeling of playing something usually at the left hand where like boy Like I need to work on this and I'm doing it and I'm doing some sort of practice Even playing traditional grip. I'm like this is not that comfortable for me right now But each time it gets a little bit easier and and that that that feeling is sort of I feel like it's a good thing to be pushing yourself and being a little uncomfortable But it's it's definitely easier just to fall back on your normal stuff But to get to like the Virgil Donates and Thomas Lang's I mean You just got to practice and and practice the right thing I mean those guys have been going, you know Be to the walls for as long as they possibly can And their normal comfortable level is insane because they've gone to that next level and they just found a comfortable medium Yeah, so that kind of leads to my third level of biomechanics. So we got ergonomics NASA star control around your body Then can you hormesis management? Have you made sure or are you taking the steps required from a fitness end? Health end to make sure you even have the requirements the substrates to play the length of time you want to play each week And then the third level is the optional level Which is where I call up performance enhancement And truth is I love this level Not because I'm biased for it because I think it's where the real magic happens I'll share this and this will sound a little grimmer that's intended to be but I mentioned earlier at the age of 30 Our body stops regenerating to its third point and every decade we regenerate slower And age as we all know and we all just call aging right you're 70 years old and you move slower and you got white Here you go. I'm just older and you kind of most people at least our parents age Concede to the idea of retirement and being older right? I'm old now. I do less things Well, the only difference between an old person and a new younger person a new person a young person Is a fresh person fresh human is the regenerative abilities And what our body does is we get older is it starts to quickly get rid of expensive organs and things in our systems Our muscles very expensive If our if we are super focused on drumming And we play career-wise right our hands are working real hard our feet are working hard Right, but we we don't really use our hamstring muscles very often or our ab muscles very much In the same way as these other muscles as we get older if we don't stimulate those things Our body will actually slowly atrophy the abdominals a little bit make them a little smaller Atrophy the hamstrings a little bit atrophy the lower back muscles And at a certain point when we get closer to 60 and 70 it's insidious and it's happening no matter what So we got to do everything we can we can to hold on to this roller coaster In most cases people like you and I like I've hurt my back too The areas that we hurt our back either for whatever reason lost strength And or couldn't keep up with the demand of what we've been doing with the stacking of events You talked about picking something up You probably played a gig then you probably hung up with some friends and you did some skateboard stuff Then you did this you did that and it all felt fine until it was that one second that the straw was what broke the camel's back Yes, the stronger and the better we can get today The better you will be at playing your instrument now. You won't get tired And you will also make sure that you'll be able to play this thing decades going forward When you see these miracle videos of 100 year old sprinters and 95 year old women still going to gymnastics The reason is they are not insanely a magical They're just hard workers and they've just built up such an exceptional fortitude that when the drop-off of aging happens Their drop-off is not that significant compared to their peers. Sure I feel like there's a mental thing a lot of people where they they hit a certain age and they Just it's like you said it's it's what it's what you do you just kind of slow down and you stop doing stuff and And also I had a buddy where I think I am not a golfer at all, but we were at a driving range years ago Like over a decade ago and hitting the ball And I think I was just obviously just knocking the hell out of it as hard as I could And a friend who did golf was telling me that, you know, you'll see 70 80 year old guys Just hit 200 yards, whatever whatever's a normal golf distance and and they're not really hitting it They're not swinging that hard. It's just like the economy of motion and the the correct hitting and And I know that I think Dom Fimular came talked about that with When he learned about the same the molar technique about how these these old civil war You know Vets would be learning and sanford molar would look at them and go these guys are so old But they're hitting so they're getting so much power Uh, and I probably use that same reference in that episode about the golf thing, but they um They're just doing it correctly and and not letting it, uh, you know It's it's it's doing things the right way for a long time 100 percent That's exactly it and it's you know, my grandmother and my grandfather my grandpa's 88 my grandmother That he's met my step-grandmother technically, but she is 77 they crush me at golf consistently And I try to muscle it and man I can hit it far when I hit it But I don't hit it a lot and they go out there and they're just whistling and straight Straight and it's because the 77, you know, it's like going out with your 77 your grandmother and she kicks your ass that Brutal, but it comes back They're economizing the motion to make it so autonomous and so smooth that you don't have to think about it Yeah, yeah, no, I love that so ergonomics Hormesis and performance enhancement. Um It's it's pretty like I don't know It's like an actionable list that people can kind of just even if you I'm a you know big believer and if like even if you just start thinking about it now and You know if in like over that over a period of time start applying these these types of Ways to improve yourself is a good start take it one day at a time, you know Are you comfortable behind your drum set? No Okay, well, let's try and figure out to make it feel comfortable because if it's not comfortable It'll be even less comfortable one day then you're there cool How do we start getting you a little stronger? Just a little to make sure that everything that you like to do on the drums is no problem Is that home exercise? Is that going to the gym? Is it actually even do an exercise at your drum throne because you could totally do a full little fitness routine just sitting on your throne That'd be great. It's a good idea Third idea after this is once you feel good about all that stuff Take this beyond drumming But take it into your own hands to make yourself as healthy as possible Because I guarantee you if you hear me say this and you actually do this Decades from now You'll thank me because you'll pay dividends and you'll look over one day when you're 60 or 70 at people beside you They're the same age and you'll see you have an age that much and they've aged a lot more And it was all because you took steps now and you're still playing music playing art Which is really what this is all about. Yeah. Yeah, you'll look at them and you'll go. Thank you brandon There was that weird dude on that podcast drum history years ago I love that guy. No, that's that's awesome. And um I mean, I I just uh, I'm guilty of it too And it's it's of just not Putting things into motion and one thing I will say that everyone knows this but it's just such like Like having the like pain from from drumming or doing anything like like shoulder pain, which I've had a little here and there for years It's not going like it's not when you're stretching and reaching and moving It's like the opening the dishwasher Small movements. It's the changing the button the the you know hitting the button on the radio That like sort of like smaller motion For me or like bending over a little bit to do something as opposed to just a quick bend down and up That can be brutal that can be that's what I need to dial in is like Why are these little small motions causing pain as opposed to you know I can go running and it's great, but it's like sometimes you just like The one little movement will just kill you Yeah, how do you make it that when you don't have to think about how you move? Right like that's that's the real key because if you have to think about the movement you do Like I have a small tear in my left Medial meniscus my inside knee and it's good 95 percent of the time then when it's not it's like son of a gun I gotta think about how I'm moving right How do we get past that in some cases you can't yeah, but you can do some cool stuff So this is helpful Extremely helpful. I feel like because this is the drum history podcast. We should talk a little bit about I mean this might be a whole thing to discuss in itself, but I mean What is the kind of history of studying this? For drummers, is this something that's like pretty widely done? I would assume you're not the only guy in the world who's doing this kind of information but like How far back does this go? I feel like this isn't something where people in the 70s and 80s were really worried about their ergonomics and things like that No, I I you know, I don't know I don't think anybody was really talking about this at a deep level Before I did that youtube video and I'm someone has some other stuff Please share with me so I don't sound so hubristic to say I'm the starter But you know Dave Elich is talking more about the body nowadays, which is great, right? He doesn't have like insane biomechanical background But he's got a great audience and he's got a great heart around it And I think that that's huge because he's got such great reach if he can help people a little get started into it That's huge. I know there's a in University of Windsor There's someone named dr. Nadia Azar who's been doing some stuff with drumeo And she's been doing some stuff on heart rate stuff with them. She's in the biomechanics lab But she think her thing's called the drummer lab. She's doing some stuff with heart rate I know I've seen more people talking about fitness for drummers in the last little while and I think it's great I don't have a business here. I honestly just love this and I think that it's just so great that People are talking about how to take care of this thing so we can all make art together I mean like I said at the beginning Seeing guys like phil Collins and neil pert and others stop doing things because they said their back hurt Is just heartbreaking to me. It's heartbreaking. Yeah, and I don't want anyone to have to go through that experience No, and back pain is literally I mean it's someone else someone out there can always have something worse than what you have going on but back pain is miserable like there is it is it is terrible when you have to experience it but um Anyway on a lighter note you yourself my friend are a monster drummer Like watching you're looking at your youtube page and all that which i'll put links in the description You are are great. And I love how you you're very I mean You're you're doing awesome production your your setup looks great. Everything is good But I want to also ask you you wrote for modern drummer. You've written in for modern drummer and things like that Um, what's that experience like? I mean that has to be cool to get to write for md. I mean, that's huge You know, it was a super cool story and you know, Mike Dawson one of your previous guests Thank you so much Mike. Honestly for giving me that opportunity. I am eternally blessed for that So I told you what my buddy matt done that I made the video for on youtube got a bunch of views um, I honestly was just trying to figure out how to help more drummers And I reached out to a bunch of people on instagram like mike dawson Mike johnston several other people that I won't name because I didn't hear back from a lot of people I mean, I was some guy that was just posting gratuitous drumming of me crushing it I guess but not really anything mechanical on instagram But I was just asking that hey listen Can I ask you a couple quick questions? And I'm sure they get thousands of emails and messages like that and I told dawson I said hey listen because he responded to me nice guy So listen, I'm working on some stuff to try and help drummers be healthier I'm just trying to figure out the best medium to try and help get in in front of more people I'll happily compensate you for your time if you want to jump on a call and let's talk So we talked and I was just interviewing him I mean I was asking him a million questions and he goes well you could just do it for us and I was like All right, man. Cool. Because I mean like you probably I was a yeah I was a modern drummer kid though like I was like, you know Since I started playing drums 21 years ago I had like modern drum magazines and I was trying to play like the afro cuban lick in the back But I never use you know all those things because they had a look the different genres right like the jazz page in the rock page Yeah So that was an incredible honor But to be honest it's sprung board so much more for me because he they wanted video accompaniment along with the writing So I had to work on writing I had to get an editor to make sure my writing was not terrible because I wanted to make sure that Mike by first And I was I had to learn a lot about writing And then I actually learned about production a little bit like how do I set like up here? How do I set up drums and have an audio mic doesn't sound like hot garbage and That was huge for me. I learned how to talk on camera. That was Six years ago now that I started doing that and it was just it was really really great Because it brought me For a while I was heavily associated with buddy at love custom drums because of that which is super awesome Love buddy is awesome got me out to nam a few times I got to meet a bunch of my heroes and it was all because of Truthfully Mike Dawson giving me that platform to share out Um, that's awesome. So it was it was truly an honor. I love it and uh, I'm sad Dawson's no longer at md But you know, he's crushing it elsewhere. So that's really cool He is and drum factory direct is great and I will say that you have an interview with Mike Dawson on the drum candy podcast Which um, I was telling brandon before we started like I listened to I started listening to it because I I love Mike's show But I was like, wait a minute. I don't want to list it was like yesterday I was like, I don't want to listen to this the day before I'm doing the interview because it's like You you don't want it to like affect how you handle an interview But anyway, what I heard was great and Mike's show was just incredible in general but that just goes to show that like Um, one thing can can really springboard a whole bunch of other stuff and you you you just I'm sure you were you know at first kind of like a little nervous to do it But like like you said you found the help that was needed and then it look what it did for you. I mean you You're doing a great thing for drummers and youtube is huge and all this stuff And uh, I think it's really cool that you kind of seize the opportunity. I mean you you took full advantage of it Thank you, man. I'm grateful for it and honestly There's some opportunities behind the scenes of some things that I'm involved with that I'm super stoked about that. I can't talk about right now. Uh, but it's great I mean, it's all be it's truthfully all because of Mike Dawson and so I'm so grateful for that Yeah, Mike's a good guy. Shout out to Mike. Um, so again, I'll put the link in the description for all that stuff Awesome, Brandon. This has been great, man Um, so everyone listening Brandon is going to be kind enough to hang out and we're going to do a patreon bonus episode Which it's been a little while since I've done one So, uh, just because sometimes when you do a two hour episode they uh on john bonham or something At the end people are like, I just want to be done so, um Yes, Brandon, we're going to be talking about your I have it written down here your mid 1920s auto geisler edition slingerland snare drum Which has a cool story and you got a lot of information from brooks teggler who's a great friend of the show. Um So i'm excited to hear about that. Uh, it's going to be a video episode. So if you guys want to Watch it, uh, you can go to patreon.com slash drum history podcast or on my website drumhistorypodcast.com There's a link there and all that good stuff. Um, so brandon as we finish up here, man Do you want to just give people your you know social media? You know handles and all that stuff where they can find you Yeah, everyone. So on instagram as it relates to this content search. I'm at drum mechanics I post a lot of stuff to me drumming and practicing because I just love playing But there are health things up there and if you have any questions, please send me a message I'd love to try and personally help as many people as I possibly can I got nothing to sell you. This is not like a fitness drum thing So at drum mechanics on instagram if you search brandon green drums, you'll find my youtube page Which I haven't posted anything in a little while But there's a ton of stuff up there on drum throne height all my videos from modern drummer up there now because Well, things have changed so it's all up there now. So there's a lot of really really great stuff So brandon green drums. It's actually brandon green on youtube Drum mechanics on instagram and you can follow my other businesses if you want, but I'll let you find them Yeah, you can send me the links and I'll put them all in the description And um, I think you told me a while ago, but where are you located? I am in new market canada north of toronto Okay, so if anyone who's listening is You know somewhat close to there. Obviously they can reach out and uh and you know Get trained and you know shred their muscles and get swole and all that good stuff and uh Get as I say but Get checked if there are many drummers if there's enough of you that are close to me And you guys hear me say this and you want me to do like a little ergonomics workshop in person If I get a handful of you, let me know and we'll figure something out because I think that would be a blast I have a lot of drums so we can actually play around and have some fun. That'd be awesome. Great idea Keep us updated if that happens. Um, so Um, I think that's it for today, man. I so brandon. Thank you for joining me here Thanks everyone for listening and uh brandon. I are going to hop over and do the patreon bonus episode So brandon, thank you for being here. Bart. This has been an honor. It's so much fun and I'm excited to talk about the snare drum