 Hello and welcome to Pukipondas, the podcast where I explore big questions with brilliant people. Today's question is, how can students look after their mental health at university? And I'm in conversation with Nick Hooper. My name is Nick. My grandma calls me Nicholas, but nobody really calls me Nicholas anymore. I am a senior lecturer of psychology at the University of the West of England in Bristol. And what is notable about me right now, and probably the reason why I'm having this conversation with you, Pukipondas, is that I've written a book about student mental health. It's not really a book about student mental health. It's more a guide for students about how to look after their wellbeing when they're at university. And so that is a little bit about me. I mean, there's a lot more I could probably tell you about my journey into academia, my journey from secondary school through to A-levels and whatnot, but maybe we'll get into that during the conversation. Absolutely. So let's start with the kind of episode question is the jumping off point, which is very much focused on your book, which I love, by the way. So how can students look after their mental health at university? What's the kind of big picture? So what it is, is I've been in my lab now for the last two years, and I've created this little pill, and it's like a little magic pill. And if you take it, then your life will be absolutely wonderful and you'll have nothing to worry about forever. It's like a lifetime supply, please. Yeah, sure. You know, I watched the film Limitless with Bradley Cooper and I just thought, brilliant, that's the answer. All I've got to do is make that little pill. And so, no, of course, life's just not that simple, is it? And so a question like how do you, how does a student maintain their wellbeing at university? It's never going to be a straightforward answer or a straightforward road for students that are out there that are listening. But what I've done in the book is I've tried to give some concrete, some concrete skills, and some concrete bits of advice. And so the chapters of the book, they map on to what's been referred to as the six ways to wellbeing. There are six behaviors that psychologically healthy people tend to do. And a lot of people that are listening will probably recognize them because they jump off the New Economics Foundation five ways to wellbeing, which you'll see in a lot of organizations and in universities as well actually. Things like connecting with people or embracing the moment, challenging yourself, exercise, self care, and one other that of course is going to allude me right now. So these are sort of like the the wellbeing behaviors that psychologically healthy people tend to do. And so I wanted to give that advice and that information to university students like do those things more when you're in university if you want to keep that ball rolling, because what's going to happen when you're in university is, is mirrors what's going to happen in life you know there's going to be some times that are lovely and great and there's going to be some times that are a little bit more difficult and you know what informs those times is a changing context, you know, living with new people looking after yourself for the first time being away from parents, being under pressure with regards to assignments, etc, etc. Of course those things are going to fill your bucket and sometimes when, when things like that fill your bucket you experience unwanted thoughts and unwanted feelings. So I guess, you know what I'm trying to say is when those clouds come, and they'll come and they'll go and they'll come and they'll go and they'll go but when those clouds come. Can you, can you behave in a way that's likely to be optimal for you in the long term by for example exercising, or by connecting with people, or by giving to people, which is the one that I was missing, embracing the moment challenging yourself, etc. That's like the gist of the book but of course, I'm ranting now pookie but I'm going to carry on while I'm while I'm here. Yeah, like it can't be that simple, because if it was that simple everyone in the world would be psychologically healthy and they'd be doing those things and so like the way that I pitched a book is that, of course, the reason why, like a lot of people in the world they know that those things will probably be good for them but don't do them. The question is why, and from my perspective, the answer of course is the human mind and the way that it can be obstructive sometimes when we need to move towards things that are important to us. And so, in addition to say and like you need to do those six things, a little bit more. I've also talked about and explored the human mind how it works. You know why it does the things that it does sometimes, and specifically with regards to avoidance. And maybe some better ways of relating to our unwanted thoughts and our feelings that will still allow us to move freely in the in the world. And so yeah it was really I actually watched your video with your daughter. And then somewhere she talked of course about that that pull of avoidance and the short term relief that you can get from it. But of course in the long term, avoiding things is probably going to narrow narrow your life a little bit and so yeah that's that would be my my my longer answer is to how to maintain soon well being which is like do those psychological do those things that psychologically tend to do and figure out a way of relating to your thoughts and your feelings that will pop up along your journey at university. I think one of the hard things there that you sort of alluded to is that I think when we're in a good place actually it's much easier to do those things and you see that cycle don't you that real positive cycle of reinforcement and you're more able to do the things that keep you well and it's all good and I certainly found that during this last lockdown for example my husband and I both kind of got into a bit of a rut and we've kind of looked at each other and gone well we know all the things that we need to do to help ourselves and even knowing it and knowing it will help when you're really low and you're really demotivated it's it's hard isn't it to engage with those things. I have experienced that myself as well, even in the last few weeks so we had a bit of news about my father a few weeks ago and a cancer diagnosis and of course like when your your bucket is full with the stresses and strains of life making those those self care moves and also continuing to exercise or continuing to make effort to give to people or to connect with people or whatnot. They fall into the background of your existence and your existence becomes about just essentially keep in going. The pitch of the book is when when the clouds come, try to do as little damage as possible, so that after they go you're not in a bigger hole I think that's a really there's this there's this real like temporal thing about suffering and human suffering that people experience this, which is that it does it comes and it's goes and it comes and it's goes and so when it's here, can we try not to drink a load of alcohol. Can we try not to eat 10 tubs of Ben and Jerry's every day for a week. Can we try not to isolate ourselves from other people. Can we try to, you know, to maintain those things that keep alive taken over. When the clouds do pass our life is still in some sort of fit state rather than then being more broken than what it was when when we had those clouds and of course then you're in that cycle then right where you're in a bigger hole now and then there's more unwanted thoughts and feelings as a result of being it being in a bigger spiral in. And so it is, it is easier, of course, to do those things and I guess you can relate this to students at university right because some students will fly through university, and it will be the happiest time of their life and that's the reason and that what that means is that the context has has has occurred in such a way in a student's life that enables them to move stress free through throughout the universe throughout the university adventure but for some students, the context in the past, you know, both their relationships with parents or students and and and their relate their context with the future with their presence. As in, do they like their housemates, are they having troublesome relationships are they struggling with with assignments and stuff. Those things are all going to inform how someone is is getting on at university so there's going to be those that variability there. And so really when that when people do find themselves in those places where they're struggling, can they relate to their unwanted thoughts and feelings in a more functional way. Can they be willing to have them. Can they watch them and understand that having these unwanted thoughts and feelings doesn't make them abnormal. Given the context, and that a more functional way to manage those unwanted thoughts and feelings isn't to avoid the world. It isn't to stop going to lectures it isn't, you know, stop contacting family members or stop going out with friends or stop exercising or stop doing the things that make a life work that your job is to relate to those are wanted thoughts and feelings in such a way that you can still do the things that are important to you in the in the long term. And so that that's essentially what the book is about it's about trying to shift students perspective about the nature of suffering and about and about how to how to move forward when when it comes along, as it invariably will do if not in university then at then at some point in their in their life. I hope that made sense I'm not sure you know I'm sort of just make sense it does make sense and one of the things I find myself wondering I suppose is when I first read your book. I think it's incredibly useful to the particular demographic you're targeting at but I also think it is just far more widely applicable than that and I found myself wondering as you were talking about your dad who you do mention in the book as well in a very different context but how the kinds of skills and ideas that you're sharing in the book presumably they're exactly the things you would need to draw on when dealing with something like that that really challenging news and that diagnosis if recently faced. Yeah, yeah, absolutely as in those things haven't. So you get to the, the last chapter of the book and one of the last few paragraphs, and I say something like, I have essentially told you my philosophy for life. I've essentially told you that this is how I live my life right now as a 36 year old man. So that you know if you if you think of what the message I'm essentially sending the students is unwanted thoughts and feelings exist, they're going to exist for you, whether you like it or not. Can we figure out a way of relating to them in such a way that you still get to chase your dreams. You know, that's changed for me, you know that's still the case for me now and it has been the case for me since I was their age since I was, you know, 18 to 21 or even afterwards when I was doing my PhD and stuff. Now I think that the cool thing about me right in this particular book is like I'm almost evidence that this stuff matters, because I as a working class lads have managed to change my stars and of course. That is luck and timing and serendipity, but a lot of it is having the ability to keep going even when your mind tells you can't do it. Or like you're not good enough to do it you're not smart enough to do it or you don't belong here or you're not worthy and those sort of like thoughts and feelings that can easily stop people from doing and going for things. Whereas I've been able to do that which is which is amazing which means that I'm almost like a role model to students for for like the importance of these skills. A long time ago, a, a writer. He's a clinician as well his name is Russ Harris and he's big within the acceptance and commitment therapy world of the Act world. And he said that the way I write might lend itself to like a self help book and so I'd always thought well, maybe I wouldn't write mind writing something like this. And of course because the, the information that's in the book, actually, yes it's useful for students but it's also useful for everyone anyone could read that book, and, and, and learn something from it and and probably connects to it in a more personal way as well. I also thought well maybe I'll be writing just an ordinary self help book but I, I'm still ranting and I probably shouldn't be talking as much as I am, I'll carry on. That's my job. That's my job. I should be doing this. You're right. You're right. So it was always in the back of my mind that maybe I would write something and I love writing. And then when my son was two. We were watching the film. He's five now turning six in a couple of months. We were watching the film The Lion King. I'm sure everybody listening has watched The Lion King, but the Daddy Lion dies. If you haven't watched The Lion King, I've ruined it with you. I'm very, very sorry about ruining The Lion King for you. And in Titanic, the ship sinks, right? Sorry, you're on The Lion King. So, so, you know, when he was two, I was crying and he's just like looking at me like what happened to the, to the Daddy Lion Daddy and I'm like, I can't explain death to you right now boy. So I'm just like nothing he just go into sleep. But of course like in my mind, I'm upset at this and the reason I'm so I'm just thinking, dear me like what if I die in this little two year old exists without me around and you'll know yourself in the impact that become an appearance can have on on your existence and my existence at least became about him from the moment that he was born and so I started writing a book to him. A self help book aimed at one person and I started that the next day after that after that. And so I, the first version of this book was actually written to my own son to be given to him when he was 18. I couldn't be given a book about psychological well being and, and like clinical psychology skills to a 12 year old or an eight year old or a five year old and so I said to my wife look it's saved in this part of my computer. If by the time Max is 18 I don't happen to be around anymore you need to give this book to him. And then of course I read the book once it was finished, and it was as much written to my students as it was written to Max you know written to my boy to begin to as an 18 year old, when in the day times I was interacting with 18 year olds who were struggling in various ways and they were in a bind and I was thinking of examples and things. And so it was at that point that it became obvious that the, the peak, the audience that I'm most suitable to talk to our students, they're who I've been around for the last 18 years, or something. And so, although the, the stuff that's covered in the book is pretty general and anyone could read it and get something from it. Those, they're my gang, they're my posse, you know, to my people. And so it felt appropriate to be writing something to them for for them to use as they, as they go into that, that university transition and try and manage all of the strains that can come with that and I wouldn't want students, if students listen to this, or educators, for a lot of people, university is great. Of course it is. And so maybe some students out there would be thinking well I'm not sure I'll get a lot from the book like this because I'm fine. But you don't know how long you'll be fine for, for one. But two, even if you're like, you're doing pretty well this book can still help this book can still give you the skills to chase to chase your dreams even if you're not like, you know, diagnosing yourself with any sort of mental health problem. And so, and so yeah sorry to go back to your original question about it being general yeah absolutely like I read it now. And it, it like prompts me into some sort of some sort of action now as a 36 year old man, but I'm glad that it's written to the demographic that I most that I've the most experienced with and that I care. The most about. I think it's also helpful for students might read it I quite often find when I'm teaching young people, it can help to teach the lens of supporting a friend and I think definitely it would be a helpful way for every student so they can be a good friend to their So for parents and carers and other interested adults trying to think how to help a young person who is is going through the university things I think you provide such sort of practical tangible stuff that people can do. And I think it can feel sometimes like you're quite far away or you don't know how to help and actually here you've got real simple prompts haven't you can work through the six rules and kind of say, Well, you know, what are you doing in terms of exercise or when is the last time that you connected with people or or what have you. So I think it's really helpful from that point of view. Do you think that the kind of, do you think, obviously when you wrote the book, albeit you wrote it actually with different purpose in mind with your son but when you wrote the book we were living in quite a different world won't we and the world that this book gets birthed into it comes out in July. So the the world that this book gets birthed into is not the one in which it was conceived like you university students have maybe not been face to face for some time now and not quite sure what next year looks like for them do they face different challenges does this book still hold water do you think or hold water even more so I don't know. It's tricky isn't it so I mean I wrote this. I had it written obviously for max and then I rewrote it during lockdown. And at the time you with COVID you thinking it's going to end soon surely it's going to end soon. Yeah, go in. And so my agent said to me, you know, we're going into a very different world. And so you need to talk about COVID because originally I said to him, I don't want to touch COVID in my book. This book was written for students pre COVID, not for students post COVID. And so he said, yeah, but COVID has changed the world as we live in and so like you have to, it has to be mentioned at least. And so I have mentioned it and I'm fine with that because I think even if someone in 15 years reads the book is quite interesting for them to have an insight into my context at the time the context of the context of our lives for the last year has been has been COVID. So that's that's cool. I'm happy with that. But with regards to your question about is it still, you know, is it still appropriate. I think that the thing about unwanted thoughts and feelings is they've, they've always been there. They've always been there, you know, in the first chapter I talk a little bit about the history of psychology and the treatment of people with mental health problems. And, you know, going back to Benjamin Russian, like the 1700s, who I love that bit of trivia in that in the book about how he signed in the declaration of independence in the US. I love little bits of trivia like that, but, you know, the people back then had unwanted thoughts and feelings and he tried to treat them with a bunch of horrible things ranging from a metrics to the spinning chair to purges and whatnot. You know, interesting ideas about what caused mental health problems which is like malities in the blood vessels or something like that. And then if you track the treatment of people with mental health problems from that early on, you'll see that they never went anywhere no matter what was going on in the world. They were always, they were always existing and what's changed is like how we approach mental health problems. So, like, yes, the book was written pre COVID with the idea that students can have unwanted thoughts and feelings during university and this book is going to help them to manage those unwanted thoughts and feelings a little bit better, while still doing those important well being behaviors and moving towards the values being the sort of person they really want to be in the in the world. The thing about COVID is, after it, there's still going to be unwanted thoughts and feelings the nature of them might have changed the nature of the pressures might have changed like instead of now, the social awkwardness of walking into a seminar class where there are 25 people that you don't know and having to find a table and strike up conversation. Those social anxieties. Now we're going to have the social anxieties of turning on unmuting yourself and talking in an online way and having that awkward. Can you hear me? You know, is everyone listening to those like those really awkward things that happen in online learning or worse than that you don't unmute yourself and you're not really engaging now and you're not getting the most out of your degree or worse than that, you know, you're you're living a world in isolation, which is probably the biggest threat that COVID has presented, at least in my opinion, for human beings is just this this this isolation that impacts your ability to connect with other students and which is just such a such an important aspect of being alive, isn't it? It's human connection. And so I think that, you know, I could guess as to what life is going to be like post COVID for university students. I'm sure it'll be a blended learning approach. I'm sure they'll still be doing online learning. I think they'll probably get back together for seminars and of course this book will help them when it comes to such things. I don't think I wanted thoughts and feelings generally are going anywhere. And so this book will help them to be able to manage those things and keep their feet moving towards important wellbeing behaviors when when they've got clouds. I think that answers your question. It does it does answer my question. I think it's it's hard to know how best to advise young people in the current moment and I think maybe actually thinking about what's the evergreen advice might be a really sensible way of kind of looking at it. Because I think that so many of us have been a bit wrong footed. I think many of us, I've certainly been in the situation where young people I spoke into who are looking for advice last year about should they go up to uni or wait a year and you find yourself going, oh, you know, wait a year and it will be gone. And yeah, so I think we all fit. Yeah, the thing we all have in common right now is none of us quite know what to expect. So I think we've all given up trying to guess now haven't we. And yeah, I think that's a nice thing though. I mean, I think that young people appreciate it. I think my students appreciate it when I say, I don't know. I wish I wish I knew the answer I wish I had a magic ball I wish I could say to you. This is how it's going to go and these are the decisions that I'd be making if I was you. But like life doesn't happen like that what happens is you make a decision and you hope it works. Yeah, and that's it and sometimes stuff works out and sometimes stuff doesn't work out and when stuff doesn't work out that is not a reason to not do more stuff. No, like, like bumps and scrapes in the journey that they're fine. And so just like those that a generalized skill of relating to bumps and failures in a more functional way is probably the thing that I'm after more than offering them any sort of certainty about about the way life is going to be going forward because I don't I don't know myself and I think that you know, from from reading the book at least I hope you got this sense. I wrote it as I in the most authentic way that I could. Yeah, I wrote it as I speak to my students. When you speak to your students, I always swear. Yeah, I'm always swearing. To me, sometimes for pedagogical reasons, you know, as in, you know, if you need to catch their attention. Yeah, a good way of like catching catching their attention but often just because it's like part of my my my lingo sometimes. But there's. Yeah, sorry, I forgot what I was going to say now which was. What was the question. Sorry, I'll take you offline with the, yeah, asking. No, no, you did. Oh, what was it? Brilliant, isn't it? I never mind. We can we can move on. Okay, I, I was wondering as well about whether you as someone who so you said you kind of came from a working class background and you've, you know, had sort of various opportunities that either you've taken or that you've created throughout your life and I wondered as that, if that makes a difference to the kind of advice that you give. And because certainly I was a young person that came from working class background and went off to university and I hated it. But I didn't have your book to help me and I think you know when I first read your book that was one of the things that I fed back genuinely completely honestly was, I really wish I would have had this book to read before I would have gone to university would have made a big difference if I would have actually listened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I think that it's tricky isn't I mean I wouldn't want to. Well, I'm, I think having come in from the working class background, maybe gave me some sort of drive. You know, maybe a work ethic, maybe an insight into some of the struggles that working class people have, you know, like being in a family where the conversation conversations about money were every day. Yeah. And so of course those things, those things shaped me. And, and a lot of people that are that are reading the book won't come from that sort of background and they'll still have legitimate struggles. It doesn't really matter how much, how much money you've got, you know, we all exist in very different contexts and can and still what what unites us more than anything probably is suffering so I think it doesn't really matter like where you come from. I think this book will still be useful to you but I think what happened for me, and the reason why I, I, I managed to keep going and keep having ideas and keep chasing them and keep pushing was two things. One, and this is me speaking really frankly by the have not really thought about this before. The reason was I met act when I was doing the third year of my degree. So in my degree I hated it. I wasn't a fan of psychology at all. I chose psychology because during my love was I liked it more than French and politics but not because I loved it and I really sort of like wanted to do it. I did it because I knew I needed a degree to be able to get a decent job. And psychology was the one that was more palatable than the, than the other two. In the first couple of years of my degree. I didn't engage with it at all. And I was living in Cardiff and traveling back and forth as ones and of course, you don't travel an hour for an hour lecture where someone reads off the slides to drive back an hour. And so I just thought I'll just not I'll read, I'll read stuff myself. Of course I didn't read the stuff myself I ended up sort of like messing around with friends or working in restaurants and hotels and stuff. So in the third year of my degree. Inspired by inspired by my dad's and the way that he was dealing with his suffering which was avoidance. I thought well, I don't think people talk about the problems enough. I think they try and suppress them. And I got randomly, you know, in a fateful way, directed to a new member of staff at Swansea University, and she gave me this book about act. I've been reading that book about act and especially the idea of self stories acceptance and commitment therapy. Sorry, acceptance and therapy, which back then nobody had heard of. It was really, really new and even now many people aren't sure wouldn't have heard of it. But anyhow, I connected with it and especially the idea of self stories the idea that we built stories about ourselves over time. And that often those stories can imprison you know they can hold you back. If you've got a story about like, you know, I'm not a good public speaker. Then what does that stop you from doing. Or if you've got a story about you know I've been smart enough then what does that story stop you from doing. And so as a result of that, I was able to hold my stories more lightly and not let them influence my decision making. And so in the book as well as I essentially became a yes man, anytime something made me feel uncomfortable. I said I said yes, equipped with this idea that the stories that I held about myself were just that were just stories and equipped with the idea that I could have discomfort. Discomfort wasn't something that I immediately needed to get rid of and in fact it's discomfort is usually a signal that something is important. And so anytime something made me feel discomfort I said yes to it and when my teachers, my supervisor said you want to do a PhD, I said yes before I even knew what a PhD was. This is going to push me, I'm going to go for it and more or less every step of my career, whenever an opportunity has come along including this, you know, including speaking to someone like yourself. You know, immediately your mind goes no, don't do this, you know this is going to be really anxiety provoking you're probably going to say something rubbish or forget you know your line of thought in the middle of an interview. That won't happen no more. And still say yes and still get on and do it and you said something similar to your daughter in that clip which is, you know, if you want to feel anxious about something then continue to not do it. That's the way to keep your anxiety, you know, if you can get out there and sometimes your anxiety doesn't change even with lectures and stuff. I still feel anxious before I go out there, but I'm able to relate to it in such a way that I don't close down, and I'm still able to do those things and so that would be the one thing that changed for me. That allowed me to push and to chase my dreams and stuff and so that I've tried to get a lot of those act skills and funnel them into the book in various ways just like more functional ways of like relating to one's thoughts and feelings. But I also, I also, and I've never said this before, so this is a, this is the first that I'm saying it to you is I also, and this is back to the working class thing. I'd go to conferences as a PhD student and of course you'd meet these really impressive people. And a lot of, like my friends and whatnot, they found such people intimidating. And I never did. I never found well to do well respected people who had achieved a lot of stuff. I was never intimidated by them and the reason why I wasn't intimidated by them was, the reason why I was intimidated by theory actually saying this was because I never, because I always looked to them and thought, you've done amazing things. And you're not a more worthy human being than my dad, or my mom, or my neighbors, or, or those people that came from that place. From very early on informed by acting some of the theory around it, like this idea that people are a product of their experiences and so if someone is doing particularly well, a certain contexts, allowed that to happen it allowed them to become that person. And if you come from a working class background, often you don't get that context that will allow you to flourish and that doesn't make you any less of a human being or worthy human being and so maybe that, maybe that helped I was never intimidated to go into a room of people that had done really well and tell them my thoughts. And so yeah, that, that, yeah, I'm not sure if that, I think that answers your question. Yeah, and I wonder as well you, you talk about your, your, your dad in the book and it seems that he's been a really important role model to you, not least because he's had to overcome adversity and challenge and do you find yourself kind of drawing him as a kind of parenting role model as well as thinking about how you support young people through your book and through your work. Yeah, yeah, I mean it's a, you know, it's a funny one with, with my dad's, because in some ways he's the blueprint for what not to do, you know, as in, as in his way of managing the suffering that he was going through wasn't a functional thing to do, and it had a lot of knock on effects and a lot of consequences to it right up till, you know, this literally the last few weeks. And at the same time, he always managed to put us first, and he always managed to be there for us and to, and to take his parental responsibilities seriously. And maybe the most important parental responsibility of love. And so in some ways, you know, he's a blueprint for how to be in the world but more than that he's probably a lesson for me about suffering. How it happens, how life can be hard sometimes. How people sometimes deal with it in ways that aren't brilliant. And how there are better ways, there are better ways of, sorry, I can't remember how there are better ways of dealing with it. And so, you know, one of the reasons why I did a PhD in the first place was because of my dad. And not because he said to me, you need to go and do extra studying, because I could see what he was going through. And I was thinking, that is not the best way to be dealing with this. And so, yeah, I mean, yeah, I speak about him, because, you know, it's, I speak about him in the context of, of love and pain, and the two sides of that coin, and how that played out in my with my relationship with him. And specifically reached a point where I was seeing him in pain, and I didn't like that, the pain that that brought me. And so the easiest thing for me to do to manage that pain was just not speak to him. And of course, all I'm doing there is trying to protect myself from pain, but in trying to protect myself from pain, I'm also stopping myself from connecting with someone that's really important to me. And I think that's like the pitch of that particular chapter, which is about, look, if you're going to get into relationships with people. You do so with the knowledge that things might not work out. They might leave. You know, they might be hurt. And if they're hurt, you're hurt, they might die. In fact, they'll definitely die at some point and either they're going to die before you or you're going to die before them. And so you're going to have to deal with that pain. Now your other option is you throw that coin away. You just don't love people. If you're going to die, if you're going to be living like you have to go into love, knowing that pain is, you know, it's just a stone's throw away. And so that's the reason why I talked about my dad in that particular chapter, because it just felt like an example that would hopefully make sense to people and inspire them to choose to love with the knowledge that pain is going to be there as well, whether you like it or not. And also because I wanted the writing in the book to be to be personal, I wanted it. I always had this, this, this worry, and my worry was this it's going to sound bizarre but university students don't like reading. And so like I'm writing a book to a population of people that don't generally like to read. And so I was like, how am I going to get over this and of course like, I had to try and write a well being book that was going to be entertaining. Like, it's a book about psychological well being. And so it's not naturally a topic that lends itself well to comedy. And so I've tried my best to sort of like bring that comedic value to it and that entertaining value as well. I also thought like, if I can give myself a little bit in the right and maybe that all, that all wrap people into what I'm going for and it will also like break up the heavier psychology, the heavier, the heavier content to have stories in there as well and so it. Yeah, I hope that that that does function in the way that it was intended when I was when I was writing the book. And dogs. You dedicate the book amongst other people to your dog. You talk about dogs and how happy talk to me about dogs. Yeah, I love dogs. So we, so we, I've grown up with dogs anyway. But I lived in Cyprus for a couple of years. And when we lived in Cyprus, they didn't have a new term program in the north of Cyprus at the time. And so dogs everywhere, and a couple of dogs follow this home after walks. And the one of the one of those dogs is called Dora. Dora is mentioned throughout the book. It's amazing dogs, isn't it? How they like, they infiltrate your existence. And they really become part of, you know, they're like a constant in your life. I think they mean a lot psychologically to people more than what they might expect. Because I'm talking about something slightly different now, but I think they signal the passage of time. You know, like if you have got a dog and you've had a dog for 10 years, and then that dog passes away, you immediately have to thought 10 years has gone. Time has passed and in the background of every picture, there they were in the stock, not really demanding a whole lot from you, but always loyal, always fun and always, you know, having that feeling of like protecting that protecting you. And I think that my experience with dogs is that I've always gone into them thinking that I'm saving them. And then when I look back across time, it turns out they were saving me. And so like I do have like a really special relationship. And so you'll see Dora dotted throughout to the point at which I make a joke at some point in the book, which is if you don't like dogs, I'm really sorry that I've talked about dogs so much in this in this book. But there are just so many stories and little anecdotes that lend themselves well to the points that I was trying to make. And so of course, you know what it's like when you're sat down your living you're writing a book, who's there sat by the fire on their pillow they're always they're always there right. And so like it's difficult to for them not to pop into your mind when you're sat on your laptop typing and so yeah she's she's not all the girl now Dora she's like got anemia at the moment and so she's on like steroids. She's like, I didn't I didn't really fully know this before but steroids apparently make people really people and dogs really hungry and thirsty and so she's wild for food as in pulling tabs of lure pack off the top of the kitchen. Yeah, like she this this morning. She took a banana skin off the kitchen top and ate a banana skin. I know so like she's really wild and she's she's wild food anyway because she was emaciated when we met her as a as a stray dog in Cyprus so she's always had this food thing but now more than ever she's just like I will eat anything she will eat anything. And so. And so yeah but she's she's doing well she's all right. You've got one yourself right. Yeah, you can hear them in the background. Yeah, well, so I live with, we live three generations in one home but we used to live next door to each other so now we all live together we've got, yeah all the combined dogs so yeah one cat and three dogs three dogs is a lot of dogs I'd have to say and whilst we're looking at moving and yeah finding somewhere that's got enough garden for three dogs is. Oh yeah they are a tie aren't they as well as like there are so many times when we think, oh, should we go away for the weekend and we're just like, what are we going to do with Dora. And then a year of a weekend away is gone. And so they are they are definitely a responsibility but I will talk to you as well so I used to when I first have buddy who is my dog so the other term my mother-in-law's really but buddy is my dog and he's a trained kind of therapy dog and he used to go everywhere with me was registered assistance dog because I used to struggle with dissociations I have PTSD and I find myself in kind of unsafe situations but as long as my dog was with me I was generally okay. But the thing was that after a while I found it to be as I got just generally a bit better, I found it more harmful than helpful to have him with me because everyone always wants to talk to you when you have a dog and I'm autistic and that you know you get to the point of kind of completely overwhelmed by about 10 o'clock in the morning if you're travelling around London with the dog so I started travelling without him but no he's brilliant and he still knows you know he now he's just a pet but he knows if I'm having a bad day he won't leave me. It's amazing isn't it how they managed to do that. I always say with dogs that like the way that I walk a door there are like certain rules for dog walking that nobody ever talks about and I'm the type of dog walker that I generally go out to walk to be by myself not to have conversations with people but you naturally get into that dog walking community and so I'm that person that just keeps their head down like no eye contact whatsoever. I'll say hey how you doing and then I'm gone straight away afterwards because that's just not what I'm hoping for as a result of dog walking. I'm hoping for a bit of time. See I think dogs generally are just one of the best things in terms of keeping your mentally well so when we got buddy it was very soon after we tragically lost the dog got run over and I wasn't in a great place and I knew that one of the things that was keeping me well was the fact I had to get up every morning and get out and walk my dog and I've had periods in my life where I've not left the house for weeks and weeks and weeks on end when I've been really poorly. But having a dog meant I had to do the hardest thing first thing every morning and once you've done that everything else is a little bit more manageable isn't it. And that routine that they I think there's lots about having a dog that makes you do your your kind of six things really doesn't it your your connecting routine some exercise and. My wife and I talk about all the time about how you know there are people that we know that don't leave their house enough and that we haven't got a choice. Whether it's raining or there's snowing or there is hailing we're out twice a day walking that dog and then doing so we happen to be exercising and we happen to be connecting with people and it would maybe when you're in the elements you're more likely to be embracing the moment and so there are different things that are going on for you like especially if we go and see the sea or you know you anytime I see the sea I come back and I feel more invigorated as a result of it and the only reason I went to see it was because I knew the dog wasn't walking. And so I think that yeah they bring they do ring a lot of joy. Yeah, I think they give us more than we give them a lot of time don't know if you have to pick one of your your six. What do you think is the most important if people feel like they can only do one of those things in your book one of those things you advise what do you think is the most important. I cheated really, because I, I actually talked about human relationships in two chapters. It was funny it was funny writing the book because I knew that I was cheating but I also had the thought it's my book, I can do what I want with it. Yeah, so in that there are two chapters right there's one called connecting with people and there's one given to people. Now, the connecting with people is is more like a declaration of human relationships from a more shallow level or a less deep level, but the inner chapter given to others after talking about the benefits of for example given the charity or given your time to, to people. I talk about this idea of giving yourself to someone, which is essentially that deeper form of human relationship that you have with very important people in your life and the pain that that that can bring sometimes and why we should still be doing those things. And so I think that that would be, I think that's my major reason for being alive major reason for continuing to want to be alive other people that I love and right now my son, more than more than anyone else but I like people. I like students, I like speaking to students I like getting to know them I like thinking about where they, what their background is and what they're going to be able to go on to achieve and how I might play some small role in helping that to to happen and so that would be the one probably more than more than any of the, any of the others. And that's maybe the hardest one to do at the moment isn't it. Yeah, I think it's, I think it's, I think people easily get into the habit of protecting themselves from other people and the pain that other people can bring and in doing so, stop themselves from doing the most important thing that they could be doing which is which is really connecting with, with people I talk about it in the book so I talk about in that chapter my relationship with my, my son a little bit. And just how, like, when you have a child it's like, you know, live in a world where, if anything happens to them. It works like for you. It's like wearing your heart you've got two hearts now you've got your own heart that could stop beating at any point but you've also got this heart over there that if anything happens to that heart over there this heart over here. I don't know what, what, you know how you come back from that and like, and I, and I know that and so the question is then how do I, what am I going to try and do to protect myself from the pain that my son how might that play out and you see it in little ways you know, if he's hurt, am I empathetic and loving towards him or am I angry with him, am I angry and because he's hurt, he's hurt himself and now I've got to see him hurt and I'm, and I'm now in pain as a result of that so you know how, how's that going to play out. And so it's just about trying to have that, have that play out in a, in a better, in a better way than what it might and when you look under the bonnet of what's going on what's actually going on is I really love my son and sometimes when he's hurt, I don't know, I don't know how to deal with it. I don't know what to do with that. And I think you'll see that a lot, a lot under the bonnet when you get into people's relationships and when you talk, when I talk to my students about their parents I always ask my students, why do you think they've done that? You know, if a student's got parents being particularly tough on them, why, why are they, why are they being tough on you? From that perspective, what do they think they're doing? And of course all that, all they're doing is trying to prepare the students for the, for the, as well now it might not be the best thing to do. They might be going the wrong way about it, but what's actually underneath the bonnet there is just love. It's just, I want to help in some way and this is what I think might help. And I think that that allows students to have more patience and compassion and love for the people around them because they know what the intention is for those people. The people might not get it right, but they know what the intention is. Sometimes what we need to do and what feels like the right thing can be different, they can't know, I mean you mentioned earlier having watched the video of myself with Lyra, so Lyra struggles with school based anxiety and actually she's gone through a pretty good period recently but having gone back from the most recent longer lockdown period, things have got really hard for her again. And I know because you know you Google this stuff, I'm the person you'll find and know about this stuff. As a parent, it's completely different and taking my daughter to school in the morning and when she is in that state of anxiety and all she wants me to do is scoop her up and take her home with me. That would be a completely natural and normal thing to do and it feels like the kind thing to do but I know it's the wrong thing to do. And it's so, so hard to override that you know. And again, like you say, the amount that that drains you as a parent, I feel for her way more deeply than I ever ever feel for myself. And yeah, by the time that I've said goodbye to her and I've done that you know calm and smiley and I get in my car and I'm a wreck. I know ideally when I took on parenting, but yeah, I mean, like, you know, when you're on that school run. And when max was sort of like three, four, he really didn't want to go and so you're a nursery and stuff, and they're ripping them from you and like you say like those words really resonate that you just want to scoop them up and take them home and say I got you my job on this on this because the only thing that's worth is to protect you and keep you safe. I'm going to do that right now. And you know that it's going to do the no favors in the in the long term. And so is like, and I get back from the school run and me and my wife will just sit there. How do we get on with the day now knowing that our world is now over there and you've just had to go through that for the last hour, and you do feel physically physically drained. Yeah, that I totally get what you're saying. At that point, of course, we don't play with the Legos and he's fine, but. And you always, I was just frustrating me because I pick him up from school and I'd say how how school said I really liked it. It's really fun. And then the next day when you take him to school, he'd be, I don't want to go to school, I hate school. And he'd say, but yesterday you said you really liked it. And he was like, I still don't want to go to school. I hate school until he like he forgets really easy. I just like learn from your experience kid if you have a good day like that register in your brain so that you're not stressing me out in the mornings when you go into school telling me that you you hate it there. And so yeah it is. It's hard. It's hard and this is something that just plays out at all forever. Yeah, this thing of like why do people do the things that they're doing and as soon as, as soon as you start thinking that way, honestly, life gets a lot easier because you start to really see the function of people's behavior and you start to think okay, all right, they didn't get it right. I could see why they were doing it and I really appreciate it and I'm grateful for that. But like human beings, you know, life is so tricky, isn't it? Human beings are so tricky. There's so much for people to deal with. And so it's hard and that's the same at the same university for some students. So, you know, I think that I said to my agent, which is a weird thing for me to have to say, but this sounds strange even as I say the words. I said this is the only book I'm writing. So I'm not writing another book. Like this was the book that I was meant to write. I know that this was the book I was meant to write. And he was like, yeah, all right to say that. I said, no, no, really, I think this is it. I don't have got anything left to say. I think this is, this is the, the one and so there's nothing tokenistic in the book. There's nothing put in there that I didn't need to be in there and I wrote it to be real, to be real and to be genuinely useful and not to sell books and not for money and not for fame or any of those things just because this is my contribution. Do you know what I mean? This is my, this is these are the things I've learned one young people to know. And if it helps 10 people, 100 people, 1000 people, one person, I've done, I go to bed now, feeling like I've feeling proud of I've done something I put something together that I really think is going to be useful for university students and I send it to my students, Yui, and of course, they're tainted by the fact that like that I often supervise them and so it sort of is in their benefit to like my book, but like some of them have had some really deep and meaningful experiences as a result of reading the book and so like I, it's not just that I think it could help I sort of, I know that I know that it can because I've not had 30 to 50 students that I've read it and said things have just changed for me slightly as a result of reading the book and so it's a really sort of fulfilling feeling to think that I've done this and yeah I said to my wife, I'm done. I'm done now and I'm going to go and I'm going to work maybe in a forest school or as a postman or just do something outdoors. I'm done with academia. I'm done with writing. I'm done with pushing the boundaries. I'm now ready. I've done my thing. I've done everything that I wanted to do and now I think I'm ready to go and buy a caravan in West Wales and sort of live that. Your students are lucky to have you. It's funny just as you're saying that I was just trying to reflect on my own time at university and just one conversation and actually my tutor was generally very good, but I just remember one time me walking in for a tutor on her just saying, don't get any thinner or we'll have to send you home and I know and you know that you wouldn't want that. I think you take maybe a slightly different tack than that, don't you? I was anorexic at the time just for the record. That's why the weird comment wasn't necessarily something she knew about. But yeah, I think your approach may be a little better. To be fair, I do try and you'll pick this up from the book. I try to be straight. Your tutor there was probably too straight, but I do try to be straight. Look, life's hard. I wish it wasn't. I wish you're suffering, whatever it is you're going through. I wish it wasn't happening if you wish I could take it where I can't. And do you know what? There's no one in the world that can. There's no magic bullet that exists out there. There are never mental health problems. And they're not even mental health problems. They're problems that arise as a result of being a human being. And so it is a humbling experience to do that and to try and be straight with people in a way that's loving and also soft. I get it wrong so much. People will sometimes say, wow, you're really blunt. I'm just like, yeah, I got it wrong then because I don't ever want to come across as sounding blunt because I want it to be seen as coming from a loving place. But sometimes you've got to be hard and you've got to be straight with people and maybe that can help them accept. Okay, life is hard. Okay, I want to draw some feelings. I've got to make friends with them. I've got to have them on my journey of life. And now that I know those things, now what's life going to be about for me? What am I going to chase? What am I going to dream of? How am I going to make the world a better place? Yeah, I don't think that your shooter got that right. And I'm sure there are students out there right now thinking, hang on, this one time he said this to me. And so yeah, I'm sure I'm a little bit too blunt with them sometimes as well. She did great things for me. Hopefully in a useful way, you know. What final thought would you like to leave people with as we wrap up? Oh, do you know, a final thought to leave people with? It's tricky as well because you don't know who's listening. So if there were, if I knew, you know, a lot of students were listening right now, there would be a different final thought to a lot of maybe teaching personnel or whatnot. And so I'll address it sort of like the layperson rather than to the students because my gut would be that that would be the audience that's likely to be listening to this. So my final message would be the trick in life is to keep going. And that's it. That's that's that after 36 years of living in this world, all I've got is life can be tough. There are going to be storms and there are going to be clouds and there's going to be sunshine as well. And in fact, the only thing that we can do is to try to keep going when life gets tough so that by the time life gets less tough, we are the wheels of our life are still in motion. And if you want tips for how to keep going and like also where to keep going the sort of behaviors that you might want to think about doing, then you know my book will give you some ideas for that. It's not going to solve the world's problems or anything, but it might it might be useful for you for when things get tough. And you know you don't want your life to shut down. And so yeah, that's it. That's all I've got is, you know, just try and try and keep going, try and keep those feet moving, even when life's hard.