 I'm talking today with Greg. Hello. Hey, Christian. How are you? It's great to have you on. And I should say that, uh, so, uh, Greg is also, uh, he's an MVP as well as a fellow, uh, regional director. So a handful of RDS who have been in the program. But so Greg, for folks that don't know you, who are you, where are you and what do you do? All right. So, uh, so yeah, a long-term data platform MVP actually, uh, so based out of Melbourne, Australia, um, grew up in Brisbane actually in a different state. And so most of the time was there in, uh, in a completely different state, but I married someone from Melbourne. So I ended up in Melbourne, uh, lived in the other parts of the country and things along the way. But, uh, yeah, look, I love being in the, uh, the, uh, I basic background, I suppose I did work as a developer, uh, for, for a long time. Uh, I actually got into the industry so far back that I was working on initially learned coding on mainframes and, uh, uh, was doing, uh, and then I worked for HP actually doing maintenance on, uh, minis and, uh, things for a long time. And, uh, the thing I love, you know, like I don't reminisce about too many of the things about that time, but, uh, the, the industry is very tame nowadays, uh, but by comparison, right? Uh, one of, one of the things I used to say is I, I had a major respect for equipment that could physically harm you. Right. And, uh, we don't tend nowadays to work on, you know, people don't have equipment that can, you know, break their arms or, you know, things like that anymore or, you know, and so on. And, uh, yeah, it was, it was kind of spectacular. You know, like, uh, I remember we had a series of disk drive that was like breaking people's arms and, you know, things that, and, uh, you'd work inside, uh, some of these gigantic old printers and it was like literally, uh, being inside a box that you're working on with a chainsaw running beside your head. They hit these sorts of things. It was just remarkable times, you know, by, by comparison. So yeah, no doubt that was, uh, so fun. But yeah, then, then ended up running a software house for a long time and, uh, learned a lot more about development and, and, uh, about creating products that, uh, were supportable in the market. That was a pretty key thing, you know, months there. Uh, eventually ended up, um, I was doing, I've been doing study on and off, you know, forever. I, I think I was, uh, externally at a uni or part-time or at unis for about 21 years or something like that, you know, along the way. So it was like a, an endless thing that, that I was doing various courses and things. But, um, once you got to sort of research type degrees and so on, the work, working at a university was a good place to be if you're studying at a university. So for sure. That's why a lot of, uh, doctoral programs, uh, will require you as part of your doctoral program, uh, some schools. So I was going to pursue my doctor, I should say that, you know, Greg also has a PhD as well. Well, I'll come back to ask you a question about that. I was looking at one of the, uh, or a number of the programs that I looked at said, no, you cannot work like you have to be full-time. You actually have to teach another thing that requires them in the programs, which, uh, it's a success criteria, right? So if, if you look at, uh, when I, when I started the, uh, the completion rate for PhDs in general was about 6%. Hmm. And so it's so small, right? And, uh, people don't realize, you know, it's so many people start with great intentions and, and life intervenes and then they just drop out. Um, they drop out so unsuccessful sometimes with masters, only a masters, you know. Yeah. No, no, no, at the time, actually at the time, people already had those to get into the program in the first place. So it wasn't like an alternate exit point or something like that. But the completion rate for part time PhDs was about two or three percent. And so, uh, I remember when I started, uh, the dean of the faculty said, look, these, these don't work, you know, and, and I said, no, no, no, I'll, I'll, I'll finish it. And, uh, and in fact, I think I had many times I nearly stopped and the only thing I think kept me going is I, I remember just wanting to prove to the dean that when I said I completed, I really would complete it. Right. And, uh, but, but the other problem with something part time is that it takes you so much longer. And if you think about, um, in the case of PhD programs, you're trying to come up with something that are things that are an original contribution to knowledge. And if you think about things in this industry, uh, a lot changes in say, five or six or seven years, uh, while you'd be doing that sort of program, it's, it's not just that. It's also, I mean, what we understand through research that multitasking is pretty much a lie, um, that you can't divide yourself. It's like, look, you know, a man cannot serve two masters if you want to get religious about it. Um, but, you know, it, it, there is something to say about focusing on, on something and being dedicated to it. Totally. So I completely, I, I completely get that. And the more you spread that out, it actually takes additional time to unplug from one thing, re-plug into another thing. And, and so having that focus time on that one area, like I look, I, if I won the lottery, I would go back and get, I would stop working and go get my PhD. I would love to go and pursue that and do research and write and talk to people and just do nothing but interview and research and that kind of stuff. I would love that life fiscally. It was interesting. The, the, the other thing that used to happen is that people would start, they'd be doing their own research topic and then there was very little educational involvement really. And then they would finish at some time later and submit and then do, you know, oral defense and, you know, all, all, all that sort of stuff. But the, again, another success criteria is really that you're associated with a project where you have other people who are doing similar work or research work at the same time. So you're much more likely to be successful if you're doing one part of a project that other people are doing other parts of that same project because you'll tend to drag each other along rather than the original whole thing where people just kind of, you know, joined up and then went dark for a, for a long period of time. And so I was actually doing work in them. We had done programming languages lab and information security research standard, which was actually kind of early for, for that sort of thing at the time I was doing that. But I was sort of jointly in, in both of those. And so we're actually involved in a project where we're looking at building secure execution modules for Windows NT actually at the time early on. And so, because if you look at the problem with a general purpose operating system is that there's a lot of clients who don't want a general purpose operating system. So they don't want an operating system that will just run a program that anybody wrote. They want an operating system that will only run programs that have gone through particular compilers, you know, digitally signed, you know, so on and so on and so on. And so, and that's actually a really good thing, of course, in terms of viruses and so on and so on. So there are still needs for various types of operating systems and NT was designed to have multiple execution things inside. So it had a Windows 3.1 execution environment that it had the NT one, it had a POSIX environment ahead. And so you can actually add additional ones in there and have and disable other ones and so on. So you can actually kind of turn it into a different operating system or a much more restricted type of operating system. And so, anyway, yeah, so it was a sort of project and around that sort of thing. And no, it was enjoyable. Actually, it was good. But yeah, it took a long time. Yeah, you know, well, so I had actually paused my entry. I lost my placement. I would have to go back and reapply. But I was going to study the, funny enough, the given where the world has evolved into technology has into social informatics, specifically studying the impact of collaboration technology on working teams, teams of people. There's so many of these areas. It would have, I mean, just it was such a fascinating topic and would have been so relevant to what we're doing. You know, again, a SharePoint guy in this bit, the collaboration space. But one of the things I like now is I have a little more leeway to be able to do things like I like to stay in touch with some of the units and things like this, right? So, so for example, there's Charles to uni in Wagga, actually out in the middle of the country here. But I did some study out of their Baptist campus years ago. But anyway, so I stayed in touch with the uni quite a bit. Actually, I got to do the speech at their one of the graduation ceremonies a couple of years ago. Actually, that was fun. But the if I look at they have a lot of people going through programs now and sort of doctoral equivalents or professional doctorate type programs. And so I like staying as in the industry supervisor as a volunteer associated with those sort of programs. And so the and you know, like for every every year, they'll have a research symposium and I'll go along and spend a couple of days listening in. And years ago, when I used to go along, was almost quite depressing the the level of what was going on in the research and stuff. But if I if I look at what I've seen in recent years, that's some completely fascinating work that people are doing. You know, it's just completely changed thinking in a number of areas. Like to give you an example, there was a guy who worked out how to take his mobile phone. And he could modify the modulate the Wi Fi signal coming out of his phone to detect breathing and heart beats at a distance from the phone. So he could literally take a phone, walk up to a door and tell you if there's somebody on the other side of the door or, you know, or things like that or in an earthquake, which is topical this week and so on. Now, often the only thing they have are the phones. And he could find people under the rubble with a phone. Wow. You know, stuff like that. No, they just go like that. That's so cool. Right. I mean, yeah. And of course, being able then you say, well, hang on, if you get a number of phones, can you then form an array and right, you know, do a better job of finding people on triangulated. Yeah, yeah. So like this sort of stuff just goes on and on. And so I look at these things and it's completely and utterly fascinating. Now, some of the projects that are going on. And the other thing I get involved with still is also mentoring people going through these sort of programs. And so for example, I've got a mentee at the moment who's a bio med student, right? And but again, the thing that's fascinating there is more in the case of what he's doing, like, I mean, I don't understand the bio med stuff that he's doing, but it's more helping him just get through the process, you know, of what he has to do to get to the other end. Yeah. Anyway, so I still have an involvement with that. It's just in the background. But yeah, I kind of love the fact that's all happening. Yeah, it's so and what was your guess we kind of skip past the two is that, you know, you've been in MVP for over 20 years. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, what I don't even know how big the program was back then. But what kind of what was what was that process? Like how how do you how does it compare to what people go through today to become an MVP? Look, I think still very similar in a lot of ways. I mean, they were awarding you. That's the important thing with the MVP programs. It's an award for what you previously did. And I think that's something that people often don't understand the difference between that and the RD program where the RD program had forward commitments about what you would do. The MVP program doesn't have that. So it's like you did all this stuff. You know, we give you this award. It lasts for a year. You don't have to do anything, right? If you don't do anything, we won't award you again next time. But but there's nothing you actually have to do right in that period. Whereas and at the time that I first became part of that, I was actually appointed into ADO.net actually curiously, which was the an interesting sideline there. And then eventually and then the following year moved across into the SQL server side of things. And then somewhere along the way they they turned that into a data platform thing. And as the technologies have evolved and spread out over the years. But the RD program, I think the thing that's important there is it is more cross technology and business oriented. So if you look at most of the people in the RD program, they tend to be business owners or these sorts of people or they're involved in boards of corporations or government things or they have run on government boards or companies and things. And so they usually have a pretty strong understanding of of the business related aspects. And they usually have a very broad technology focus. And many will be MVPs. So they also have a depth area that they work in. But but yeah, they they tend to have a much more of a breadth. And it's it's I don't know. It's an interesting program. I think it's changed significantly over the years. Sorry, the when I first joined, it was it was the most amazing thing that I was involved with, right? Every day, there was an absolute torrent of email and stuff coming on the distribution list, right? I mean, you were talking significant volumes of things in amongst that. And it it was the most inspiring thing that I would read every day. And it was funny as well, like the the jokes between the people on the on the list and so on. It was just spectacular, right? I missed that. Yeah. You know, if I if I look at the list nowadays, there's a few, a few things maybe every day, about one or two things used to be 100 things, you know, more a day, right? And and the other thing I find with those sort of distribution lists is that what tends to happen over time is that you get people who want to listen in on those lists because it's so inspiring. But then they end up modifying the discussion on the list to make those people who are listening happy. And and you sort of kill the discussion that was actually going on on the list, because you're trying to make those other people happy. Right. And the big mistake I see on a lot of the distribution lists right now is that I know they're doing it with good intent where they're intending to try and cut down the email volumes and things like that. But what will happen is somebody will start a discussion and then immediately somebody from the product group or something will join into the discussion, but take the discussion offline somewhere else, right? Yep. And the thing I look at the note to is like the one it was described to me when I joined, so I've been in for this all like five years because they kind of with the pandemic it got weird. It's supposed to be a two year position, but is that the other conversations were like a fast track to like the top 300 leaders across Microsoft. So you could ask a question to say, hey, I have this issue or I have this concern about this or I saw this new messaging and you'd have a president or vice president inside Microsoft responding and then pulling in like directly to the thread and pulling in other people and taking action around that. But like you said, I see more of now in the DLs and there's different distribution lists for different discussion types. I actually prefer the one that it's the direct where it's just the RDS. I think you still find some of the humor and some of the discussion. That's a really good example. Something I don't really want to talk too much about, but the thing is the you get to the point that the real discussion moves to somewhere else rather than on the thing where it was in the first place. The sort of problem they've run into, it's the same in the MVP list is that I think they think they're doing the right thing when somebody from product group comes in and moves the discussion off somewhere else. But what they're missing is that all they're assuming that no one else on that list is interested in that discussion. And that's not true. There's a lot of work and there's a lot of sidebar conversations based off of that discussion. And I look, I just, as I mentioned, I supposed to be traveling to go to an RD meetup event next week. And a fellow RD and I were Sharon Weaver and I were chatting about something about a conversation that we saw on there. And we had like something entirely both of us talked about, well, we both need to get back on and comment and add it in added to that discussion. But it becomes the point of discussion, both business owners, both of us. And so we're talking about the impact of that, of that topic. And it's, it's, I mean, that's, you also learn an enormous amount by watching through the discussion about how something gets solved. Yeah. Yeah. And so on. Right. So the thing is, and that's the difference between someone who's embedded or just is so into the technology, they will thrive even just watching and hearing somebody else getting to a resolution. The idea of having the discussion start disappear and then maybe come back with a bit of an answer. That's, that's a completely different thing. You know, great. It's one of the reasons you just defined why for over 11 years. So we're in our 12th year now, I've been running monthly tweet jams on various topics. I started it because I wanted to get outside of my company's echo chamber on important topics. I wanted to hear from public anybody out there in the open. And it's a one hour event where there are seven questions that are asked. But what I love about it is that and some people that are frustrated that don't do a lot on Twitter. And so they it's very fast paced. And so if you're following is like, I find it really difficult to follow along. I said, yeah, but you know, it's Twitter, it'll like, you can go search from 12 years ago and find the Twitter conversations. It's all there. So afterwards, you can go back and follow the threads around the hashtag. For those that aren't familiar with that, it's the collab talk tweet jam. The next one is it's the it the end towards the end of every month, you can search for it on Twitter in the collab talk, collab talk hashtag, you'll find all the discussions. But it is it's following along those things and and it sometimes spurs on. There are people that do blog posts off of one side conversation that all happened in the public sphere around the discussion. It's and what I tell people, I said, if you're a content creator, or you're a product owner, independent consultant, like I, I validate ideas from these kinds of conversations, I get ideas like I never thought of that perspective. And I will then I'll find people that I'll reach out to and I've done this through the RD conversations. I'll reach out to those people and say, Hey, that sounds like something my company is working on. Can we work together? Can we do these other things? Or have you thought about this? And so it's been, as you started out saying, it's very inspiring, a lot of those conversations. To give an example as well, like I used to I got involved in user groups really early on, right? And and if I look at that, we had a really good group in Brisbane. Let's let's say like even the beginning of the dotnet groups and things like that, right? I would attend every one of those, right? I mean, regardless. And what was sort of interesting with that is it didn't matter what the topic was. I would go, right? And so like I mean, I remember vividly someone discussing say a MIDI interface for audio, right? Now, I mean, I had had some, you know, I've had a background playing and bands and things like that. So I mean, the the whole you know, audio side of things, that's faintly of interest, but the MIDI stuff never particularly interested me. However, watching the the thing that he showed us was the user interface that he had built looked me completely amazed. And I got so many ideas out of out of that unrelated to what he was talking about. And see, this is this is the thing people often don't get about science and research and things like that as well to come round to that same topic is that almost everything that is substantial, that has ever happened research wise comes out of left field. It doesn't come out of where people are researching in the first place. And so you get like people say, like, why do we put money into, I don't know, astronomy or something like that? I was talking about like NASA, all the billions of dollars that the US spends for NASA. And people say it's like, why do we care about sending somebody to Mars or to the to the walk on the moon is because of the thousands of products and other ideas that came out of because of those investments in that unrelated area. It gave us, you know, a knowledge of different plastics, for example, a lot of great example is say things like MRIs, right? The real origins are most of that came out of an astronomer, you know, noticing an effect while looking at galaxy stuff, you know what I mean? And there was, you know, US Navy stuff in around that too. I mean, a bunch of things. But there was a real spark occurred there through somebody noticing something in a totally different field of science. You just you can't pick it and it's a mistake that governments make all the time is that they always assume that if you get the best people in a particular area and you keep putting money into that same thing and focusing on that, you'll get the best outcome, but you won't, right? It's a bit like, if I look at medical research, you have all these people who largely come from the same background who are educated the same way, and they're all trying to solve these intractable problems, right? And I really, really wish they would pick up a bunch of civil engineers and people from totally different areas who might just look at that problem in a way that you were not thinking about, right? That's one of the most important, my first company that I started during my master's program with two fellow classmates and that we created a company and we were creating a product. And one of our advisors, we were stuck at a certain point, and one of our advisors to this, because we were doing it for the schoolwork for, you know, initially it was, you know, theoretical, we're talking about this. And we said, we have an actual idea. Let's go do this. But about a year into it, you know, one of the one of the professors was one of our advisors said, are you in business to create that thing? Or are you in business to solve certain problems, whether it's that thing or something that that leads you towards? And so we learned about, you know, the whole pivot, you know, pivot the business. We took that learning and we went from a hardware to a software solution, and two and a half years later sold the company. You know, we created some knowledge. In the software house that I was running in Brisbane in the late all through the 90s, basically late 80s and 90s. I had a guy who was fellow director, but he was doing more the sales and marketing side of things, right? But the thing I loved about him is that if I had a technical problem that I was struggling to solve, he would not know what to do with the technical problem. But he was the best person I've ever struck in terms of asking me questions that led me to the answer. You know, there's a skill set there that is extraordinary. And but even a bit like, I look at, say, things like troubleshooting. And when I first started at HP, one of the things they did is they shipped us off to the US. And one of the courses we did at the time was a Kepner Trigo one or something. It was like a logical troubleshooting. But what I noticed at the end of that course is that still really the people who could troubleshoot at the beginning of the course were the same people who could troubleshoot at the end of the course. And I think that is really not saying you can't teach someone to troubleshoot, but you're diving back further where you need to teach them to think logically. And that's a tough, tough call. You know, that's not something you can, you know, I look at, say, something like the popularity of the Da Vinci Code, the book, right? And, you know, the whole way through, it's just full of logical nonsense, you know, where they'll go, look, you know, A could cause B. Oh, we know B is true. So, well, A must have been true. And you go, no, there's an enormous number of other reasons why B might have been true, right? And yet it's like one after the other, the entire book. I got to the point, it wasn't that it was a horrible book, but, you know, just that logical nonsense that followed all the way through it was way too much for my head. But, you know, I see people who just think that all the time. Now, it's how they think, you know, and you just think, oh, you know, this is true. And, you know, then, oh, you know, that causes that. And, you know, if that's true, well, that must be true. No, no, that isn't how it works. Yeah, hey, we could have a much longer conversation around, you know, how, you know, the world treats, you know, the science and research. And, yeah, so it's a painful thing to watch in real time, some of the discussion. But it's important, as I said, like troubleshooting to be able to at least even apply a sort of a binary division, you know, the whole way along, you know, like, you know, let's establish it's one of these two things, you know, then we get, then we cut it down to this and then we know one of the others and things and then we cut it down to the next thing and we just keep going till we get to the small pool of things that could possibly be the answer. But, but I see people who do troubleshooting and they're just all over the place. Right. And, and it's because they're not applying a sort of a logical breakdown to the evidence they're seeing in front of them. Yeah. Well, that's actually a favorite line I had from an old engineer that I learned a lot from when I started HP. I loved his line. He used to say the more smoke and flames the better. Right. And, and, and it was right because smoke and flames, you know, where the problem is, right? Hey, I have to ask, so when you traveled over, did you, were you in Palo Alto or that you visited? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I've, I actually met both Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard. Oh, wow. Years ago. Yes. It's so strange actually over the years. I've met a lot of these people. When did you, when did you leave HP? I left in 86. Okay. Thanks a lot. And I was, yeah, I started in 81 and first trip I did to the U.S. I was here there for, oh, I think probably about three and a half months or four months or something. And, yeah. And, and so the first couple of weeks we're at the Palo Alto headquarters and I was living down in San Jose and doing most of the work in Cupertino area and I was born and raised in Cupertino area. I was born and raised there, but I worked for HP for, in 2003, 2004, so no overlap there, but out of headquarters there and right off of Page Mill Road. Look, back in the day, both Bill and Dave were still around, right, at the time, but they were, they weren't involved day to day, you know, at that point. So John Young had taken, they put him in place as the company president at the time. And, but I happened to be in a couple of spots like I was in Palo Alto when they had a shareholders meeting, right. And one of the, I don't know if you're in HP in those days, the color of your name tag was actually really, really important because that determined a lot of things, right. So being an Australian, we had a green name tag with yellow writing, the U.S. ones, you know, different colors and so on. And like I had, you know, Japanese friends with red ones and so on and all this. But it was sort of interesting, like we're in Palo Alto and all these dudes come in who had gold name tags and you go, huh, okay. Then you suddenly realize like, because they were there for a shareholders meeting. And like, these are all the people you've read about in HP Magazine. They were all the people that were there for the shareholders meeting and stuff. And yeah, it was completely fascinating. And Dave Packard came around and, yeah, made a point of meeting our group and stuff and talking to us for, it was completely fascinating. And the, and of course he gravitated immediately to people with different colored name tags. So, you know, we get to spend more time with him. And, but the other one was Bill Hewlett. You know, he did the whole, you know, the typical, I remember one of the sales guys calling him Mr. Hewlett and he did the whole, you know, I'm Bill, you know, Mr. Hewlett was my dad sort of thing. The, they're very down to earth guys, you know, like, that's the thing that impressed me a lot with them. The, yeah, I found them just completely fascinating guys, but the, yeah, it was a sort of an interesting time in the company back then because it was a heyday of the industry. And in the Bay Area, for example, Suga for company prior to Seagate, right? For example, we're running ads on TV at night, every night, trying to get people to come and work for them. You know, stuff like this, they had fully staged ads with, you know, the Suga Express and, you know, like, we had, we were staying in a garden apartment complex down in San Jose area. And HP had a block booking on about 150 of the apartments, right? And several nights while we were staying there, we had recruiters just come cold calling at night, just knocking on the door, just saying, do you want a job? You know, like, it was like the most remarkable time in the industry. It was, it really was quite strange. Yeah. Well, yeah, again, having, you know, growing up in the Bay Area, and so a lot of my friends, their parents worked down in Silicon Valley, and I grew up in the east, over the East Bay, but I worked there for years, moved back, moved away to Sacramento, moved back down to the Bay Area and community down there. But the HP culture was fantastic. In fact, they, I was invited to stay to continue, I was consulting there. And, but we left then the state, we wanted out of California altogether. But otherwise, I would, you know, who knows, still be with HP today. I really liked the culture. Yeah, I loved, I loved the corporate culture. It was almost, at the early stage there, it was so, it was almost overwhelmingly, almost smothering, actually, a bit in some ways. But I, yeah, the, the culture of the place was extraordinary. I, in later years, I did, I watched the change of leadership and things and stuff and, yeah, I was there when Carly Fiorina came in. Yeah. Look, I think she got kind of a, you know, harsh story. There was some of the change that had to happen and with the board and everything around that. But it was, so I'm a collaboration technology guy. I was there helping build out and deploy a collaboration platform. The Keychain Initiative was my project that I was on. And, and, you know, that aspect of it, the daily, you know, the voices over the intercom of that, the team, the way that people worked, it was just very, again, very collaborative. It was very much a, we're a team going and doing these things. Our objectives are these shared objectives. And we, I had a clear idea of what I was working on individually, how that fit into a team and went. Anyway, I mean, okay, we can have a longer conversation about that, but it's a, hopefully. Look, the thing I loved with the company at the stage I started in 81, they were, they made all these things themselves too, right? Yeah. One of the big things that changes by, just start to change by the time I left actually in mid 80s is they had started to just buy equipment from other people and re-badge it right and so on. The engineering that went into the products prior to that was nothing like I've ever seen anywhere in the industry ever, you know, before or since, you know, they simply did the best engineering in the industry. And to give you, you're talking about PhD programs, we had, I remember the 7935 disk drive appeared and there was, there was something like four or five guys doing PhDs on bits of things in that drive. You know, I mean, there was one who did it on the plastics design. It was so advanced, you know, like, I mean, who does that, you know, on the plastics design of a disk drive, right? The level of engineering that went into the products in those days, nothing, I've never seen anything like that since, you know, in anything. Well, my first tech job, 91, 92 was with, we actually ran Hewlett Packard's reclamation site. So we staffed it and we did it and we resold all the used globally for HP. So like, if you bought a monitor and there was a scratch in it and took it back, they would ship it back to Rockland, California, which is just outside of Sacramento. Another Rockland division. Yeah, out there now, it used to be the Stanford Ranch. It was way out there in the middle of nowhere. It's now an ocean of homes all around the HP Hewlett. I met at one of the Friday beer busts that every division pretty much, like there was always somebody having one around that area the every week, actually, I met a woman from the terminals division. And she's always struck me as someone who'd worked in the one job, probably a little too long, right? I mean, you could walk up to a dumb green screen terminal. Yeah, which internally was firmware controlled and stuff like that. And she could just start typing on the keyboard and open up things that would download instructions into the terminal, dumb terminal. And then she could just buy from rote memory type in enough code to start playing a car game on the screen of the dumb terminal. And I'm thinking, wow, it's been in that division just a little too long. Something to be said about liking your job and the machine language required for inside a green screen terminal is just getting pretty esoteric. Well, Greg, hey, I really appreciate your time and getting to chat. And now that events are starting to open up again, maybe we'll see each other at a future MVP. Yeah. Yeah. So Greg, for folks that want to find you, what are the best ways to reach you to find you online? Greg at sequeldownunder.com. Most basic or just go to sequeldownunder.com. Reach out. Awesome. Well, thanks so much. We've also now got Cosmos down under.com as well, which is all focused on Cosmos DB. So you've got that. Is that within your MVP profile as well, that link? Yep. All right, I'll grab it. It will be. It will be if it's not there already. Excellent. Well, thanks a lot for your time, Greg. And thanks for sharing part of your Saturday. All good.