 Well, hello everyone. I hope you can all hear me loud and clear. I'd like to welcome you all. Good afternoon, good evening, or a good morning potentially depending on where you're joining us from. Welcome to Engineering for Change, or E4C for short. Today, we're pleased to bring you our installment, the first installment of our 2018 webinar series on the topic of how cities are managing their transportation growing pains. My name is Yana Aranda, and I'm president here at E4C, and I'm pleased to be your moderator for today's webinar. The webinar you're participating in today will be archived on our webinars page and our YouTube video, YouTube channel. Both of those URLs are listed on the slide you see in front of you. Information on upcoming webinars is also available on our webinars page. E4C members will receive invitations to upcoming webinars directly. 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Today, we're very pleased to be joined by Darina Poyani, who is a senior lecturer at the School of Earth and Environmental Sciences at the University of Queensland and co-author of the Urban Transfer Crisis and Emerging Economy. Dr. Poyani will take us through select case studies and enlighten us to the urban issues, policies and initiatives that are taking place in frontier markets. Dr. Poyani joined the University of Queensland planning program as a lecturer in 2015. She served tenure and was promoted to senior lecturer in 2017. Originally from Albania, she lived, worked and studied in Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands and the US prior to moving to Australia. In 2016 to 2017, she was a visiting lecturer at the University of Vienna, Austria. Her research interests encompass urban transport, urban design and housing. She has published books and numerous articles on urban planning and she's going to give us insights into her latest work on today's webinar. Thank you for joining us, Darina, and I turn it over to you. Hi, hi, welcome everyone, and thank you for joining the webinar. I'll get started right away. I'll be presenting today the findings from my latest book called the Urban Transfer Crisis, Emerging Economies, which was just published last year by Springer. If the book covers 12 of the major world's economies in developing countries, most of those are located in the global south, but not all of them. And if you look at the slide, it's the countries that are marked in white color. Now, the inspiration from the book or the idea came from this observation that a lot of the cities of global south or developing world are looking more and more the same because of their transportation system. So they've come to be dominated by congestion rather than traditional landmarks such as, for example, monuments or plazas or squares. And here I have just a few examples. Now, another observation is that urban transport seems to be perverse in that it tends to become worse once cities get wealthier while other policy areas like education or health care improve. And of course, some inefficient and polluting or the transport system affects households, individuals, businesses, the community at large, it has major effects on health and on the environment, but also on urban economy and social development and no less social inclusion. At the same time, urban transport is one of the keys to more sustainable and human urban future in the 21st century. So after this introduction, I'll talk a bit about the patient cells, it will be structured according to strategies or interventions. We have grouped those into, into nine categories, and this framework also comes from my prior work on the slide is listed on the right, the right hand side. The article or this, this particular framework comes from, and to make it extra clear. The list of interventions is color coded by these desirable towards most desirable intervention. So I'll start with this, the first one investments in road construction. So this historically have been considered sort of the magic land to resolve all manner of urban transport problems so the predict and provide paradigm has been very present in the global south. The problem is that it has been shown both theoretically and empirically that the benefits of building a world or increasing capacity of drifting roads are a commonly offset by this phenomenon called induced demand. Increased road capacity commonly results in the diversion of travel from lower volume out of the day parallel commuting routes or public transportation and in a very short time congestion levels are stored to almost extension levels so there is this vicious circle at play. So, some people will say that this type of approach, trying to go into issues by expanding road is like trying to do obesity by buying bigger fans. And it doesn't work. However, this continues to be a typical policy response. In most of the countries that we covered in the book. Here is a picture from from Ankara an urban highway that became congested. The picture was provided by the, by the author of the of the chapter. Now, the problem with this approach is not just that it's theoretically ineffective, but it also presents a social inclusion and she because the road are mainly used by an elite minorities at all. So, in developing countries, we see a situation of distance to say the United States or Australia where the majority of people have cars. We were talking about just the very top slice of the population on cars and increasing road capacity also produces more and more urban stroll as development tends to follow, tends to follow roads. And the mentality among policy makers in merging economies is changing, but not quickly enough so there is, we see more of a rhetorical change towards moving away from traditional road construction. But the reality is that more money is put into roads than alternative. I'll talk about that next. In this area where a lot of money tends to be put or tends to be spend is parking, which also consumes large amount of space in the cities of emerging economies, and some of those cities are only starting to realize that parking, free parking comes at a very high cost. Now I'll move on to the next area of the next strategy that invests in rail based transport. I wanted to cover first, theoretically the two main types of rail based transport like rapid transit, LRT or heavy rail or metro, metro transport. So, LRT is present in the cities of developing countries and it ranges from the conventional on street tramways, such as the example of this Moscow tram presented on the picture on the left side, and all the way to the elevated systems of places like, like Singapore. It tends to be present only in the wealthier cities of developing countries. It has of course lower construction costs than metros. And it positively impacts their quality in the cities where it is present because the transform on electricity is a positive at all. Generally, cities that build LRT signal these more prominent commitments to public transport. So it's desirable in the sense of the sense of image. But then when it comes to operations, if LRT operates simply at grade without much priority in other traffic, it really has not a major operational advantage compared to busways. And I'll talk about busways in another slide. Then we have the case of heavy rail metro. I'll put up a picture, an example from Delhi metro on the right hand side. Now the problem with metro is that it requires full segregation from other traffic because it's fed electricity from an electrified third rail. So, therefore, because it needs to be segregated construction costs are the highest, although also the capacity is the highest because full segregation means that metros do not have to stop at traffic lights. So there are no impediments on the way. So capital costs estimates vary from perhaps 8 million per kilometer for a great kind of metro. One can secure the right of way on the surface, but then costs escalate all the way to 150 million per kilometer for physical terrain. And in fact, an already built up city that has major underground infrastructure can be considered difficult terrain cause a lot of sewer lines and water lines that have to be displaced to accommodate metro system. So that's in short, the theory. Now, let's move on to the topic. The reality is that only developing cities with a population of more than two or three million places like Mexico City or Delhi. For example, in the picture having placed metro systems, most other cities just simply support them. They're too, they're too expensive. One exception is Chinese cities. China has been building a huge amount of rail transport, urban rail transport, since 1990. And it's donated, of course, by its own economy during this period. There is this great GIS graphic which you can access through this link that I posted at the bottom of the slide. I've extracted the images of rail construction in three years, 1990, 2000 and 2020. It shows the huge growth in urban rail in China, but otherwise you can look at the GIS for more gradual growth to see the evolution. Now, let's move on to another type of intervention, the promise of future technologies, and I'm covering only three. Of course, technology is just one word, but it encompasses quite a lot. So I'll cover biofuels, electric cars, and now the new invention, self-driving cars. So biofuels are of course less polluting at the point of view than conventional fuels. But when it comes to developing countries with the point of developing countries, the concern is that a lot of agricultural land might be used to produce biofuels for domestic use and for export. And then as a consequence, countries that adopt biofuels production in a major way might suffer too short of this. So that's one concern. Electric cars are another type of intervention. The problem here is that the pollution, yes, is lower at the point of view, but we need to look at the pollution during the whole lifetime of the car. So from the moment it's produced in a factory to the moment it's brought to the market. And then you also need to look at the afterlife of an electric car. And I've put here this pile of discarded batteries of electric cars. And this is a scenario that happens quite commonly in developing countries that do not have the facilities to recycle used batteries. So people who have the numbers will say that the overall pollution might not be a lot less than conventional cars. And then we have the case of self-driving cars. It's perhaps too early to talk about their deployment in developing countries. So I'll only talk about this briefly. One concern is that with self-driving cars, we are looking forward to a future where robots will be making these moral decisions about what to do in the case of a potential accident. And if you'd like to look at the series of scenarios that present this moral dilemma that cannot be easily resolved by science, there are more philosophical questions. You can click on this link, Moral Machine at MIT.edu. And there you can see this human perspective on moral decisions made by self-driving cars. And you can also test yourself to see what you would do if you're faced with a dilemma in traffic. And it involves the self-driving car. Okay, so these are the main theoretical points I wanted to make regarding technology. But now what's the reality in emerging economies? What were the findings from the book? Well, it looks like technology is still too expensive for emerging economies. And a lot of the benefits at this point in time may be offset by rapid polarization. Also, we need to keep in mind that technological solutions cannot be some sort of panacea for urban transport problems. In fact, things like congestion cannot be solved by technology. Yes, biofuels, electric cars cannot help with pollution, but they don't necessarily fix our cities. So, behavior change will be required to resolve a lot of these problems. And I'll talk about that more next. So the reality at this point in time is that developing cities have been adopting the more inexpensive type of technologies in urban transport. So new mobility services by a cell phone or on demand parking payments. And there are versions of Uber that are very specific to certain cities, like GrabBike, like in the picture here from Jakarta in Indonesia, or DD Taxi, that's the Chinese version of Uber. There is some experimentation in different places with intelligent transport systems for traffic general traffic management. And then in the case of India, there is this major mission to create 100 smart cities in the country, which will employ technology in a major way. But many experts are quite skeptical. They'll say that it's more political propaganda than a feasible kind of kind of project. So, generally, turning over the existing fleet of polluting vehicles has proven difficult and that's one of the big priorities in the countries that we reviewed in the book. Okay, another type of intervention are pricing mechanisms, which charge the price to access the certain area of the city, typically the downtown area like the Temple of Hordes and pricing applied in Tehran, Iran, that's the illustration of the slide shows. Overall, the research in the book shows that there's been great political relaxers to introduce measures that could tell the use of cars and motorcycles. And even when benefits are accrued by congestion charging areas like the one in Tehran, these tend to be offset by the growing levels of motorization and developing cities. We see experimentation with pricing and taxation schemes, but sometimes even these have been counterproductive, for example, in India buses are taxed more than personal vehicles. And then I need to say that these types of schemes, they might have an effect, but it's only in a limited, in a limited area. They don't have very large overall effects that cover the whole city. Another category of intervention are legal access restrictions. And developing cities have been experimenting with these, but we limited success. One relatively successful scheme is the Oino Circular scheme in Mexico City, which prohibits cars from circulating one day a week based on license plate numbers. It has backfired to some extent when it was initially introduced because some people purchase second and third cars to regain the system. Overall, the effect has been positive. And Thailand is another country that has been trying to restrict private vehicle ownership by limiting the issuing of license plate, but overall it's been difficult to restrict legal access. That's the general finding from the book. Another category is the strengthening of land use control. And of course, this is not a transport intervention as such, but land use and transport have a very strong relationship. They have a very efficient public transport system in very low density role in kind of environments like the one illustrated in the slide in Cape Town in South Africa. These kind of environments, of course, private vehicles play the major role for moving people around. These characteristics of land use in emerging economies that then affect the system are these very dynamic urban development processes, mostly led by the private sector and by the government. There is a high construction level in some cities to meet housing demand, but we also see increasing social polarization and segregation as countries grow wealthier. We haven't seen a new equal distribution of wealth, but rather just polarization at the extreme. And of course that kind of polarization has special effects. We see more and more communities for the rich and the middle class, we tend to cut themselves off from the rest of society. And these types of spatial inequalities, I feel they're perfectly illustrating this picture from in Sao Paulo that was made around the internet where we see side to side one high rise, very fancy development for the wealthy, right next door to a favela. So developing cities are slowly recognizing that they need to adopt better land use policies that encourage the use of public transport, but there is a big gap between rhetoric and practice. Another category intervention is simply awareness raising campaigns and these can be quite low cost have been taking place in many, many countries. One type of campaign is the World Car Free Day that's celebrating many countries on September 22 every year. However, the success in reversing travel habits has been has been minimal. So many specialists at this point are saying that perhaps the focus should shift from awareness raising campaigns for the population at large to professional training and education. And this is also cool and difficult to do because a lot of countries in emerging economies, with emerging economies based off of from brain drain so they're better trained professionals, they need to, to the global north, and this phenomenon is partly responsible for the lack of reform. Now one exception is India, where these centers of excellence in urban transport are being created that will provide financial assistance for professional training. But the fact remains remains to be seen there's still relatively near one type of intervention that is far amount and you can see from the green color of the title in the slide is road based public transport and have distinguished this from rail based public transport is more desirable. Mainly because because of its lower cost. Road based public transport, obviously include conventional buses, and those do not tend to do much for the image of public transport in various countries. But proportionately now there is this higher level public transport system as traffic transit, which promises to deliver benefits that are similar to rail, but it's much, much lower cost. And let me give you basic information on the RT. So, the RT has been, has been developed all over the world. It started in Latin America, but, but it's spread now to Asia, and it's one type of intervention that was initially invented to the goal in the global south, and then it was exported into the global north. Usually the direction of policy transfer goes the other way around so the RT is special in that way. And at this point, there's been plenty of research on the operation, there is strong evidence that the systems are appealing and effective. So, the landmark system is still for the two landmark systems are still in Latin America, so we see that and the RT system being incipient in Asia the largest system is in Guangzhou, in China. So, this is for the positive side, but of course the RT is not a miracle to you either. So, and some the RT is of course a bit more or less successful. It is a very complex type of transport planning, and some systems have suffered from fragmented planning or operation in efficiencies, political struggles during their design and then later implementation. Land acquisition can be a problem when designing the system in an already built city. There have been issues with cost over us, although the system is more cost effective than rare, like I said, and in some cases, there has been this interaction with social equality issues, because the RT sometimes is also seen as a way to rehabilitate informal settlements, and so the interplay with social issues varies from country to country. Unfortunately, there have been a few cases of the RTs that were built and are already dismantled, like the case in Delhi. And we've also seen that in some countries, because the systems are higher quality than conventional buses or biotransit, informal transit, then the fares are also too high for urban poor. So, these are some of the issues to keep in mind when thinking of the IT. And then finally, support for non-motorized mode. One cannot stress enough how important non-motorized transport is for cities. And when we talk about a non-motorized transport, it's not just about having a sidewalk or having a bicycle lane, but it's also about the general feel of cities. For example, a city like the tiny city in this example with this major highway that runs across the urban space cannot be considered a pedestrian friendly environment. This city is obviously dedicated to cars, so it's also a visual perception, not just about the practicalities of providing non-motorized infrastructure. Now, in the book we found through the chapters that our authors wrote, we found that various cities are currently inventing any substantial amounts in cycling and walking infrastructure. That's very unfortunate. So, walking revolution in particular is not forthcoming. And wherever there are positive interventions, walking and cycling type of path, this tends to be in small pockets or disconnected corridors. And cycling in particular is often seen as a major activity rather than almost everyday transport, especially for the middle and the upper classes. Attitudes are very, very slowly changing. But, okay, apart from the negative, I also want to talk a bit about the positive. There are some examples that are at the forefront of non-motorized transport movements. And one example is Robota, which has already created some nearly 400 kilometers of standarded bicycle lanes, but that's quite unique in developing countries. São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro and Brazil are also developing quite large cycling networks. And then we have the case of China that used to be one cycling paradise at the height of the communist system. And then it sort of came over with urban space to cars. And now it's trying once again to revive cycling. And one type of intervention is bicycle sharing programs, which are becoming more and more popular in statistical China. But these also sometimes have drawbacks, like in the case of Shenzhen, which is shown in the picture here on the right hand side, where bicycles have been used to then have been discarded creating these design stores and another environmental problem in the city. Okay, so in summary, I wish this had been a more cheerful presentation rather than listing all these problems and issues. But that's the reality. There is no point sugarcoating it. Most developing countries don't need this radical overhaul of urban transport to improve the situation. And in most cases, packages of measures are needed. Disconnected interventions simply will not have a big effect. The trends that we see in developing countries now are similar to those experienced earlier by global north countries, but in the south, the problems are magnified because the south has many more mega cities and lack of resources is also a problem. Generally, there is a high level of dissatisfaction over the devastation of cities called by urban traffic, but most places have very weak local traditions of public action. And this is, of course, legacy of poverty, corruption, or political, and totalitarian political systems or post colonial type of context. So many of the cities that we covered in the book, they do have high potential to overcome urban transport problems because the cities are dense now. Some of us, it is not all, but some have retained a very strong pedestrian culture, and they also have substantial portions of carless households that have nothing to lose from car traffic restrictions. But in practice, there are all sorts of transport governance arrangements that inhibit more effective development. Okay, so that was it for my part, and I'll be happy to take questions. Thank you so much, Dr. Vellani. This has been an incredibly rich overview of what the interventions are that you've seen to be the most high potential and what the state of affairs is. With that, I would like to invite our participants to enter their questions into the Q&A window, and we'll start diving in. I already see some folks have already entered their questions. Let me just go through here. And while you are answering your questions, I'm going to kick us off with one question that came to mind for me when you were speaking around the high potential of addressing environmental performance of existing police, when you were talking about the technology-based solutions. Are you able to share some examples or something that you've seen in your research of successful approaches or where that's been done effectively and what some of the consequence interventions have been? I would say that the two countries that appeared to be at the forefront of technological innovation are China and India. And one of their big advantages is that they have domestic car production so they can produce their own electric vehicles at lower costs. So they don't need to borrow technology from the North. But then I've also seen in my research on transport psychology and transport symbolism that often the middle classes in the higher income strata of those countries do not care so much about the symbolism of things like electric cars or hybrid cars, what are called, in combination with our cars. Unless these are associated with luxury brands like Mercedes-Benz or BMW, things like that. So a lot of middle class people, they won't care to buy an electric Toyota is that it doesn't add to the image of themselves and their families. The environmental family, the environmental family-ness of the technology itself doesn't have that strong symbolism yet in this context. And there is a big contrast with the global norm where using an environmentally friendly vehicle does give you the positive social capital. So think about those Toyota Prius drivers in the United States. They're associated with a certain environmentalist and real-life style. And that's not happening yet in the South. That makes good sense. So we have a couple of other questions that have come in. With ridesharing becoming more popular, for example Uber and spin-offs, motorcycle taxis and et cetera, do you think that road transportation can be a more sustainable option in developing markets? Road transportation is in-car-based transportation, you mean? I believe. Here it says that there's the example of motorcycle taxis. I believe the question is more just noting that vehicles have transportation, not exclusively necessarily cars. Sure. I mean, in the case of motorcycles, we see the example of places like Vietnam where motorcycles are used quite a lot, but generally in Southeast Asia. And up until now the conventional wisdom has been that we also need to try and restrict motorcycle traffic as much as possible. But now this new thinking has emerged that perhaps motorcycle-based traffic is a lot more desirable than previously thought, because in a lot of ways that motorcycle ownership is considered sort of a stepping stone towards car ownership. And then imagine what can happen if all those people that now use motorcycles suddenly switch to cars is caused major congestion. So in some places now the focus is to keep people on motorcycles and have them shift to cars. Right. Interesting. So in terms of the buses, what questions have come in here regarding your thoughts on what developing countries can do to better implement green urban transportation, in this case the example of electric buses for mass transportation? I think that's already happening. Actually, it's a question of turning over the existing fleet. But like I said, the countries that have a domestic production are hugely advanced here because they can produce electric buses at a lower cost. Other countries will always be disadvantaged if they have to purchase those cleaner technologies from elsewhere. I mean it's desirable, but the potential is limited because of the cost. So local manufacturing is an extricably linked capacity. So one of the notes that you raised was regarding the good example of road-based public transport and the unconventional migration of innovation from south to north as well as the BRT. Are you able to share some examples? Are there any examples of also collaboration between the global south and north in addressing some of these issues given that they are so rapidly evolving and there's so much learning to be shared across the barrier? Oh sure, I mean collaboration is going on all the time. It's not a question of individual examples. This is, I mean we live in a connected world now, so policy diffusion is constantly happening. The question is translating policies keeping in mind the local culture and psychology. That's all the focus now. I was talking before about the different symbolism that's attached to different technologies in the north and in the south. That's the kind of thing that takes a while to change. You can easily transfer the technology, but if a culture is not poised to accept it, then it's not going to work. That's really the main issue and the technology itself that's probably the easier part, transferring the technology, changing culture and mentality that the process. Right, I believe that in our own research we've seen that, for example, and we're talking about non-monerous transports and particularly in East Africa, walking, which is still a predominant mode of transportation in many African countries, is still perceived as a sign of poverty. So it's absolutely kind of, to me, resonating when you're speaking about that behavior change and perception being so critical in the investment and awareness campaigns being an essential element of this work. So with respect to some of the things we've seen, are there any really disruptive solutions that you've seen that may have addressed some of these issues in a way that surprised you in doing this work? Disruptive solutions. I would say BRT has been the major innovation in recent years. Perhaps bicycle sharing, smartphone-based bicycle sharing has also been, well, disruptive to some extent and only for certain countries like China, not everywhere. And the major disruptive technology we expect now is automated driving, of course, but I'd say it's too early to speculate about its effects in the North, even, and then probably take a little bit longer to be applied to the South. But I wanted to make another point when we're talking about walking being associated with poverty in Africa and another part of the global south. I wanted to say that if one is located in the global North in cooler climates, it's easy to forget that a lot of cities in the South, they can have this very hot and humid climate. So the same technologies or behaviors that might work quite well in the North, they might not work as well in the South. So what we see in a lot of healthy states, for example, places that are in the tropical climate bands, because it's so hot and humid outside, anybody who has achieved some level of economic success in life won't immediately get out of the streets and get into air conditioning or private motorization and air conditioning. So that's why we see this sort of urbanism that's dominated by air-conditioned cars, air-conditioned shopping malls, these people's economic needs, they try to spend as little time as they can outdoors. And if one is based in places like the Netherlands, the bicycle kingdom, it's easy to forget these climatic disasters. Absolutely, it's a fantastic point. And we have a few more questions that come in that are really interesting. So one question here is, is there any evidence that investment in technologies like Internet bandwidth lead to long-term changes in traffic patterns and the demand for the most congested parts of the city? Essentially, does telecommuting and virtualization provide some hope for the future? I don't think that's really the solution. And the reality is that there are already many countries in the south now that have quite good Internet connections in the major cities, but the impact on traffic or those technologies has not been always great. In fact, some cities in the south probably have better Internet connection than what we had here in Australia, traveling at the moment, connecting to the webinar. But, yeah, no, I don't think the impact on traffic has been great. Is it fair to speculate that perhaps coming back to your point about culture in terms of war-coating culture and expectation to be on site might have something to play with it? Again, I'm playing completely speculation here, a little bit of couch research here. Yes. So two things going on. One, like you said, different work cultures in the north and in the south. I'll just not forget that a lot of the styles still operate under these, I don't want to say totalitarian, but authoritarian type of cultures. So then workplace culture is not as flexible as the minority telecommuting is not as acceptable. People, yes, are expected to be on site and then hierarchies tend to be much stronger in the workplace, which means that employees kind of have to defer to their supervisor, be expected to be on time, and be there physically be there. But that's one issue. Another issue which I mentioned earlier is that a lot of countries, in a lot of countries, the authorization is still increasing, so people are still purchasing cars. So whatever effects we see that might be due to technology, whatever positive effects, they're offset by increasing motorization at this point. So we're not in an equilibrium kind of state just yet. Right in the United States where there is already a saturated market with cars and then we can measure the different effects of technology rather than prevention. So there are these two opposing forces at play. I suppose time will tell how these dynamics shift and influence one another. It's very exciting. So are there any questions? There's actually some questions coming in through chat or maybe some comments. If telecom companies are successful in the global south, why is it that transportation is lacking behind in the global south? Sure. So I'm trying to derive this. This is a question I'm seeing in the chat just for your reference as well, Dr. Piani. If telecom companies are successful in the global south, why is it that transportation is lacking behind in the global south? That's quite a broad question. Yes, yes. Well, so I think I think one big issue is the political system of the global south. What we see is these two interlocking loops for vicious circle. One that sees cars as a necessity and the other one that sees cars as a status symbol. And both of these loops, I believe, stemmed from the race of neoliberalism as the governing principle. So that means that either governments in the south are weak or in some cases, previously strong governments have now retreated. And now this is, of course, compounded by corruption and dysfunctional, post-colonial legacies and then authoritarianism. So what happens on one side of the loop works like this. So you have this neoliberal governance system. And then this leads to reduced investments in alternative forms of transport, public transport, cycling, walking. And then, right after that, individual types of transport like cars or private transport solutions like shuttle buses to one employment place provided by the employer. These are entitled not things that are government based like public transport for all. Then once this happens, car ownership becomes necessary to just get around efficiently in the city. And once car ownership is seen as a benefit in life, then the government rushes to accommodate the needs of the car growing elite, and this leads to further reduction in the quality of public transport and cycling infrastructure. So that's one side of the loop. Then have the status kind of for the psychological component. You have a neoliberal government, and it means that society becomes more unequal socially and financially. And then we know from research, you can only see that society that are more unequal display of status becomes more important. So you need to clearly show back to what you want where you stand in society. So the car you own, the car you drive needs to place you right away in the social hierarchy. And then this becomes a status symbol, of course. And once cars are status symbols, then you've got this government that rush to accommodate the needs of the car owning elite, like I said, and further inequality. So there are these two loops at play that are difficult to break. And I don't think technology itself has the power to break this loop. It's more of a government issue than a technological issue. I think technological optimism needs to have more energy in this case. You raise a tremendously good point and thank you so much for connecting the dots across those entire loops. It's fascinating and enlightening and I'm hopeful, again, to not to end on a pessimistic note but for all of our attendees and all of the folks that will listen to this webinar and the recording. And I do apologize. We're coming to time. So that was the last question. But there are other questions coming in. Please feel free to contact Dr. Piani via her email address to webinars at engineeringforchange.org. But what is promising is that hopefully our listeners will now be thinking holistically about solutions and how policy and perception behavior will play into the overall betterment of our transportation quandaries that we are facing globally. With this, I would really like to thank Dr. Piani for taking the time to spend with us today, for sharing her insights and encourage all of you to pick up a copy of her books. This was just a tip of the iceberg from all the exciting, interesting insights inside. I'd like to thank you all for attending, joining us on today's webinar. There will be a recording of this webinar available. For those of you who are registered, you will receive a notification of that recording when it's ready. For those of you seeking professional development hours, the code is listed on our slide here. Please send us an email to request that professional development hour. And again, if we did not address your questions, email us at the webinars at engineeringforchange.org. With that, I'd like to wish you all a good evening or a good morning, depending where you are. I encourage you all to join us as E4C members to get information on upcoming webinars. And we hope to see you on our next one next month. Take care.