 Okay, being six o'clock on Monday, March the 19th, 2018, we're gonna call the order our city meetings this evening. Just to heads up to everybody, we have a quick liquor control board meeting that we're gonna conduct that's scheduled to run for about five minutes, so shouldn't take too long. And then we'll transition into the regular city council meeting where I know there's items that everybody here is interested in. Just a quick reminder, we do keep a sign up sheet in the back and really appreciate everybody taking a second either on your way in or way out to sign on to that for us. So we have a record of everybody who attended. There's also an agenda back there in case you're curious about what's on tonight's agenda so you can see how we'll pace out. So we're first gonna call the order of the liquor control board meeting and ask that everybody please rise and join us for the Pledge of Allegiance, led by soon to be deputy mayor in the coldness. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Okay, first up tonight on our liquor control board meeting is approval of the restaurant only licenses for 2018. These are renewals. Just again, we have a couple new members in the past for these reviews. What we've done is asked staff to bring forward any issues, outstanding issues and report on whether there's been any licensing compromises of any kind and whether or not we've gotten things like noise complaints out of the units or if there's been any need for special attention from either our fire folks in the back or code compliance enforcement, tax payments or police interaction that's abnormal. So we tend to move through those then with sort of a, we look at them, open it up, see if there's anything from feedback from staff and sometimes take the whole slates together so you might see that from a motion perspective but just going back to the way we started if folks have questions and want to pull items out and ask anything, please do so. So first up, we have restaurant only permits for 2018. These are the renewals. We have Westside, Delhi located at 165 East Allen Street. Any items from staff in regards to that? Any questions or concerns from the liquor control board? Any questions or concerns from the public? Good, so seeing and hearing none, I entertain a motion for approval of the restaurant only 2018 renewals for Westside, Delhi. Second. Motion by Nicole, second by Howe. Any further discussion? Seeing and hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. And those opposed? Motion carries. Item B, approval of second class liquor licenses for 2018. These are also renewals. We have beverage warehouse located at 1 East Street. KGR Enterprises, DBA, Sammy's Quickstop at 268 Mallets Bay Avenue. Shiva Ram, LLC, DBA, Winske, Jiffy Mart which is 357 Main Street and Walgreens, also known as Walgreens. And that's at 321 Main Street. Any issues, report from staff? Nope. Great. Any questions or concerns from the liquor control board? No. Any questions or concerns from the public? Okay, so seeing and hearing none, I entertain a motion for approval of the second class liquor license 2018 renewal slate as presented. So moved. Okay. Motion by Eric, second by Nicole. Any further discussion? Seeing and hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. And those opposed, motion carries. Item C, approval of first class liquor license for 2018. This is a new establishment. This is Drafts and Crafts LLC at 45 Main Street. This is a first class license. This was in a space that was formerly known as Oak 45. So do we have anybody here? Yes, we do. We do? Yeah. Great. Welcome. Well, I think if you'd like maybe to say if it's not putting you too much on the spot or if it's not exposing a secret, would you like to tell us? I'd like to say mine's well done. Yeah, you want to join us? So we get it on camera? Okay. Sure. Were you warned that you were going to be put on the spotlight? Yeah. Yeah, first off, really excited to see somebody take it on the space. So I think what we usually do is give folks an opportunity to talk about what their project is and what's going on. It's a good way to get it out to the public too. Yeah, definitely. Thirsty masses. So what Dressing Crafts is, we're a DIY studio and tap room. Basically what we do, it's along the lines of a paint set, but we do craft projects. So you can learn how to paint also, but we'll also have smaller projects like wall-mounted bottle openers or quote signs along those lines. Just various craft projects, rotating craft projects. Kind of think it like a restaurant, but more for crafts. Awesome. Yeah. And beer too, that's great. And are you guys from nearby? Yes, I live in Essex. I live in Fairfax. Awesome, great. Well thank you, that's really exciting to add to the mix downtown. I'm sure we'll have great success. We're excited to be there. Can't wait to open. Awesome. Questions from the control board? What are you expecting to open? Right around the first week of April, and we'll start holding like classes and until we get the full liquor license. And then we'll have like a regular schedule where you can have appointments, but we'll also have open craft time where you can come in and just have a drink if you want to and coloring book, whatever you want to work on. That's the question from the control board. Any questions or concerns from the public? Get your craft and your draft on. So singing and hearing none, I retain a motion for approval of the first class liquor license for drafts and crafts. I'll see it 45 Main Street. Motion by Nicole, second by Eric. Any further discussion? Seeing and hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. And those opposed, motion carries. Thanks very much. Welcome to the community. Thank you. Thank you. Item D, we have approval for first class liquor licenses again, 2018 renewals. We have Big Red Presents DBA Misery Loves Company at 46 Main Street, McKee Enterprises or McKee's Pub at 19 East Allen Street. We have the Regular Veterans Association, our VA 84 Weaver Street, and we have SWJ Hospitality known as Mule Bar at 38 Main Street. And this is a mix of first class outside consumption permits and entertainment permits and sidewalk usage permits. So all of these establishments have good relationships with our chiefs, nothing that would hold up approval of a liquor license. Great. Any questions, concerns from the liquor control board? Any questions or concerns from the public? So singing and hearing none, I retain a motion for approval of the first class liquor license slate as presented this evening. So motion by Hal, second by Eric. Any further discussion? Singing and hearing none. All those in favor, please say aye. And those opposed, motion carries. That concludes tonight's liquor control board agenda. I would entertain a motion for adjournment. Motion by Eric, second by Nicole. Any further discussion? Singing and hearing none. All those in favor, please say aye. Those opposed, motion carries. The control board is hereby adjourned. Now we will change our hats and we will call to order the Winooski City Council meeting of March 19th, 2018. We'd ask that everybody again, please join us for the Pledge of Allegiance. Lead, all right, soon to be Deputy Mayor Nicole Mays. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, to the duty of your Republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Thank you. Okay, first up tonight is a gender review. This is an opportunity for a council to make any request for agenda items for your moved and or moved around in order. We did try to stack our agenda in accordance with folks who are speaking with us today and with expected crowd flows. Questions, concerns about tonight's agenda from council? Okay. So, singing and hearing none, we will move on to public comment. This is an opportunity for members of the public to address city council about anything that's not on tonight's agenda. As a reminder, we appreciate you signing in the back and there is an agenda in the back in case you're curious if just something is on the agenda or not. But this is an opportunity for you to talk about anything you like with a council, hopefully city related. Any public comment for tonight? Okay. So, singing and hearing none, we'll move on with our regular agenda. We'll first up have the consent agenda through approval of the city council minutes from March 5th and 12th, 2018. We have approval of warrants and approval of the public safety authority. First up, I think we'll let's pull out the council meeting minutes of March 5th and March 12th and take those as two separate items that we'll vote on and then we'll come back and vote on B and C together. Okay. So, any questions or concerns regarding that? We've got to do that because we've got some recusals and some abstentions likely to take place due to attendance. Okay. So, first up, I'd entertain or we'll consider the city council minutes from March 5th, of which there were three members present here. We adopt the minutes of March 5th. Motion by Nicole, second by Eric. Any further discussion? Singing and hearing none, those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed. Those abstained. Abstaining. Abstaining. And motion carries. So, March 5th meeting minutes are approved. I've now retained a motion for approval of the March 12th city council minutes. So moved. Second. Motion by Eric, second by Christine. Any further discussion? Singing and hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. And those opposed. Those abstained. Aye. Abstaining. That's right. Motion carries and March 12th meeting minutes are also approved. We'll now take items B and C, which is the warrant sending in 316, 2018 in the payroll period from 225 to 310. And also the Chinton County Public Safety Authority authorizing me to sign and execute the agreement per the town meeting day vote. Again, that's an administrative item and didn't feel like a warrant in discussion. It's just authority to sign on behalf of really the voters who authorized us to work towards that. So I entertain a motion. I'll open up any questions or concerns from the public. Seeing and hearing none, I'll turn your motion for approval of the warrants and the signing authority for the Public Safety Authority. Second. Motion by Nicole, second by Christine. Any further discussion? Seeing and hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. And those opposed. Motion carries. City update. We have, I have a couple of updates, quite a few updates for you tonight. On regional dispatch, you just approved the, may I authorize that. That was approved by the voters on town meeting day. So a couple of steps are now happening. I'm having what I'm calling listening sessions or town hall sessions with all of our public safety personnel. I have one at seven this morning, another one at 5.30 tomorrow night, to hear what our public safety personnel are concerned about, what their issues are in advance of the new government being stood up. The first meeting of the new board of directors is Wednesday morning. So that's really the new government that's being stood up and will work through the process over the next couple of months and years to think about what happens next. Hiring, we're doing a couple of different hiring processes. We have a conditional offer of employment out to our equipment operator, two facilities person, who have given us now way to the background check, which means public works is now fully staffed, which is very exciting for the first time I have been here. And we are interviewing this week for assistant city clerks and for our accounting clerk position. And you see Janet is here being trained as well. You may have read the opportunity zone update. The governor has proposed draft opportunity zones for the state. This is under the new federal tax legislation. It is if passed and approved and funded, an opportunity for investors to invest in these opportunity zone census tracts and get some tax benefits through the federal government. So Winooski, both of our, we have two census tracts in Winooski and right now both are approved by the governor as opportunity zones. There are only 25 in the state. So that's very good for us. It has some long-term funding potential. We rolled out today our Winooski small business loan program. So that is on the street. So small businesses looking to grow or expand or do new things. And Winooski reach out to Heather, find our information on the website. It's very exciting. We are working, staff is working with the planning commission to stand up a public arts task force. So this isn't a convened group, but as a group of people who has come forward and expressed interest in how we focus on public arts, how we implement the economic development strategic plan, aspects around public arts, what we do with the small part of money we have set aside for public art and how we address public art in the municipal master plan. So the planning commission will be taking that up on Thursday and more information to come, but I want you to know we were working on that. Couple of community services update. The spring brochure, as we've talked about before, is on the streets, on the website and is available in hard copy at all the city buildings. On March on Saturday, this coming Saturday from 1030 to 1230, the library is going to host the annual Winooski Grove Seed Swap. This is a free event at the library where people can come in, talk to their neighbors, learn from people with a lot of expertise around gardening and swap some seeds. We got a significant donation from High Mowing Organic Seeds, so everybody will walk away with seeds. It's a free event. And then of course registration is open for our Summer Thrive program and our after-school day camp program as well. Want to let you know that the Treasurer is working on a pilot program to invest our CIP reserve dollars. So we met with him, Public Works Finance myself, met with him last week to talk about what dollars are available because that could be changing quite significantly based on conversations later on tonight or in the upcoming weeks and months. We are really looking at this as a pilot program for six months in order to have cash be freed up for longer-term CIP planning as well. And then finally, the Noise Compatibility Program Committee, which you'll hear more about later on the agenda, snowed out last week and the meeting was rescheduled to this Thursday. So anyone tracking that airport committee meeting is this Thursday at the airport at five o'clock. Thank you. Awesome, thank you. So now we'll move on to council reports. This is an opportunity for council to update folks on their activities. Anything else you want to bring up? So I'll start with this end of the table. Yeah. I don't have anything to do yet. You went through orientation, that was. I did, yes. Great, thank you. Nothing to report other than Jesse and I have a meeting scheduled to touch base on a few issues in my role as the administrative liaison. I think a big thing is we welcome the new planning commission really, sans I think three holdovers last week and Paul did a great orientation for them to get the ball rolling with that group. I'm really excited about their capacity and their ability to work though. I think it's going to be a really productive group. We've got some other stuff that blends in with these other issues, so we'll stop there. So there was a public safety commission meeting last week, unfortunately I wasn't able to make it. So I don't have anything to report back, but at our next council meeting I'll have touch base with the chiefs of the commission chair to have some information to share. Nothing to report, but still absorbing the orientation. We threw a little light reading at both of you for this weekend too, nice little 120 page packing. Okay, so with that we'll move on to our regular items and we've got one quick administrative item to take care of and first up is approval of the election of deputy mayor. So deputy mayor mentioned this in the orientation has historically been the longest serving member of council and or if there was a two people who came on at the same time the person who received the most votes that's not built into the charter. It's solely the way things have been done. So we've prescribed to that thus far and have not deviated from that for the last couple of councils and did not in the last three years that I serve. So with that we would have automatically nominated Nicole Mace and that stands as the longest serving counselor. Deputy mayor can't have a role in running meetings so it is important that the person be comfortable with that and if there's ever a refusal on behalf of the mayor we'd have to step in in terms of negotiations with outside entities and usually go out of my way and sort of update that person on sort of what's going on that maybe isn't getting addressed in council all the time or whatever things are percolating as city moves forward. So what we've done in the past if we have opened it up for a conversation to see if anybody else expresses interest in that and then historically everybody's kind of looked down at the person who's sort of long since said do you feel like doing this? You okay with that and moved from there but this is an opportunity for council to have a conversation about that if anybody has concerns about that methodology or any concerns about Nicole's capacity to serve. And I say that jokingly because I think from an administrative level you're very qualified right here. Happy to serve if elected, feel pretty comfortable with Robert's role as a boarder and chairing the committee obviously it's a decision for the council to make. You're here, great candidacy. You worked on that speech. Any questions or concerns for Nicole or from a process standpoint? Any questions or concerns for the public? Good, so seeing in here none I entertain a motion for the election of deputy mayor for Nicole Mace. So moved. Second. Motion by Eric, second by Hal. Any further discussion? Seeing and hearing none, all those in favor please say aye. Aye. Aye. And those opposed? Motion carries, congratulations. Thank you. Okay, with that we're gonna move on to a special recognition portion of tonight's event and I would like to welcome Chief John Haughty to join us up front. All in favor. All in favor. So first thanks for allowing us to take a moment. We're here to recognize George Gannon, George at the age of 21 joined the fire department has completed over 60 years of service to the city of Winooski's fire department. It's part of the foundation that makes Winooski so unique in such a special place. When you take people from all walks of life and band them together, watch them train together, watch them conduct meetings, watch them respond to emergency calls whether it's good or bad and how they band together, it is pretty impressive. We watch it over and over. Sometimes it's hard for us to express but for someone who's done it for 60 years is way over the top. George's calm demeanor, his ability to have a blunt, frank conversation was always welcome. And just watching his interaction with the younger folks that come in, if they call us, I would say it's been pretty special. About a year ago I had a conversation with George and I would often every time I see George say, what do you think George? And he said to me, he said the best thing an old firefighter can teach a young firefighter is how to become an old firefighter. So I think George has a true understanding of that, has a true appreciation of that, has seen a lot of change here in the city and was a fire department and has always done a good job of maintaining a positive outlook and more than just giving his heart and soul to this place. So I appreciate your service. All right, thank you. Thank you, thank you. I will just say a couple words. I said I wasn't done, but I will. You heard the pager go off by accident back there, sorry about that, but that's one of those. George has been inspirational to me in the years that I've done this and moved out through the ranks because it is a difficult thing to do. The weather's really nice today, really. But to get up at two, three in the morning when you know that they're six inches, seven inches of snow out there to answer the call, but to continue to do that through the years is inspirational. So anybody who's 30 years old feeling a little pain or they're moving slow, think of George and you'll be inspired to get your butt up, move them. So I appreciate everything that you've taught us for wisdom and I appreciate every bit of it. Thank you. I would really deserve the honors, if you will, to the family. Number one, a wife and the kids. We're out there all the time. They've never, the 58th year's come in June 4th for us and Sue's never a bitch about it. She's on the party call at two o'clock in the morning, three o'clock in the morning, get home at seven o'clock and in the evening when supper was ready for five o'clock and you know, you know we say cold beans under the table, well the truth never happened, really. But it's been a pleasure, it's been a hell of a ride. Clem was one of my ex-guys and we worked together. One of the best stories I've ever had with Clem when we had the queen. I was a 30, a 100 foot tiller, aerial tiller and we got from Burlington, through South Burlington to Aniskey. And one Saturday afternoon we were out riding around with it Clem's on a tiller and we turned out to Main Street onto West Spring. And the first thing I knew, Clem was on a sidewalk with a guy in that chair. No, but it's a- I was telling these stories. I was telling stories, we got them, for sure. We got them for sure. But anyways, thank you so much, you know. And especially for the family. And I think somebody that was deserving of a plaque or something at one time was our ex-g. Dave Bergrand. He should have been given something after 26 years being chief over here. And he was basically railroaded out of the city on our next city manager. So this guy here is going to take part of my honor as far as I'm concerned. He's got it with me, believe me. Anyways, thank you so much. Thanks. Okay. Formality to George R. R. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. You're left with a little bit of formality. Thank you. You're welcome. Thank you. Is that the order of the union? They've got it. They've got it. They've got it. They've got it used to be. And these folks said it the best. So I'll keep it short, but it's very appreciative of something special. 99% of us turn out and run when there's something potentially really awful facing us. And the courage that you've shown, not knowing when you jump in that car, that truck, whether it's burnt toast or a roaring fire, which you're going to show up and find is an absolute inspiration. And not just from the standpoint of inspiring people to join the fire department. I know it has inspired a whole new generation of people, but for people who volunteer for anything, the selflessness that you've displayed in 60 years of service, that's a grind. And something that I'm treated like every day. So from the bottom of my heart, thank you for all the work you do, and I really appreciate it. Thank you. And so with that, we have a proclamation on behalf of the city council for you. Now they've got to vote to give it the okay, but I think we're ahead of the last section. So this is a proclamation to honor George as a Musiki firefighter. Whereas George Gallin, lifelong resident of Musiki has provided a great service to the city and beyond selflessly answered emergency calls and attended required trainings with the Musiki Fire Department for 60 years. And whereas at the age of 21, he started his many years of service. And whereas during his 60 years of service, he's held several key positions and became the voice of 1-9-0-0 Dispatch in recent years. And whereas having served for 60 years, FF8, that's what you're also called, right? No, no, no, no. FF8 becomes the longest serving member of the Musiki Fire Department as it enters its 91st year of providing services to this great city. And whereas the past, present, and future members of the Musiki Fire Department join the city council in thanking George also Pepe, another name, right? Pepe. Camelon for his many years of service, dedication, mentoring, and friendship over the past 60 years. And whereas the Winooski City Council wishes to honor George Gallin, therefore be it resolved that the Winooski City Council hereby dedicate this proclamation to George on the 19th day of March, 2018. That's pretty good take on it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. I'm over here. Thank you. Adam, you're going to give me a kick to that voice? No way, sir. No way, sir. No way, sir. No way, sir. No way, sir. Very good. Very good. How are you guys? You're welcome, man. All right, right. Yeah, Andy was great, man. Yeah, it doesn't... My ex-dispatcher over here. Yeah, yeah. Done? Musiki in the kitchen. All right, right. You're welcome. Come on, come on. Thank you, George. Thank you. Thank you, George. And it was... If folks want to see George in action too, I don't know if you remember, but I think it was year before last we were doing the budget presentation in the firehouse, and the guys that always does when we're in the firehouse. Call an ambulance. That's right. Yes, sir. We got to watch you jump in the truck, though it was really cool. Thank you for getting these guys a new truck. Yeah. I'm glad. We really do. That's great. Thank you. Okay, guys. So I've given them the proclamations. I'm hoping you're going to pass it. Any questions or concerns from Council? We'll be honest. Thank you for your service. Thank you, George. Thanks, George. Questions or concerns from the public? So, singing and hearing none, I entertain a motion for approval of the recognition of George Gamla, six years of service to Windowski Fire Department Resolution. Motion by Nicole, second by Christine. Any further discussion? All those in favor, please say aye. Aye. And those opposed? Motion carries. Okay, we'll move on to item C. The approval of the Windowski Farmers Market Event Permit. That's going to be super exciting about this. Yeah, this does not follow well the last presentation, but. So, on a packed night, we're going to make this really quick. City staff has received an event application from the downtown organization. It's scheduled to be held Sundays, May 27th through October 7th, 2018 from 10 a.m. until 2 p.m. This event has been taking place in Windowski for the last nine years and serves approximately 800 people per week. The event has previously required closure of Windowski Falls way every Sunday, but this year the downtown organization proposes to hold the event on the city for a couple years ago that it was done like that. There are a couple of different reasons that they've requested this. One is they feel that the big open space actually makes it feel less vibrant than having a smaller closed space, and also, more importantly, sometimes it was burden on people who take public transportation to have the buses rerouted every week. So, we did receive some complaints about that. So, I think actually this will be an improvement. The council also includes a request to close nine parking spaces along Windowski Falls way from 8 a.m. until 3 p.m. each Sunday. City department heads have reviewed the application and have specified the following conditions for permit approval. Downtown Windowski staff will be present to run the market. Setup and breakdown will be completed by downtown Windowski staff. Downtown Windowski will communicate with the downtown association to verify that use of bus stop bathrooms will no longer provide meals storage for the free meals program as the space will be leased, or at least we hope the space will be leased. So, staff recommends approval for this event, and I brought Kelsey Adams, who's the board chair of the downtown Windowski organization in case you have any questions for her. Great. Yes, this is exciting given our structure of weather. May 27th through October 7th. We would ask you how WCP or excuse me, downtown Windowski is open for coming back for this. Anything you'd like to add in terms of program or logistics? We just got a grant from City Market to do the summer meals program again, so that's very exciting. Great. Questions for Heather for Kelsey? Any questions or concerns from the public? Seeing and hearing none, I would entertain a motion for approval of the summer's market event permit. So who? Motion by Hal, second by Christine. Any further discussion? Seeing and hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye. Aye. Those opposed, motion carries. Thank you. Thanks for all your work to make the market happen. Sure sign spring is near. Yes, it's very exciting. Okay, item D, we have the Windowski public safety day event permit application also with Heather. So I will present it myself to you. We've received the event permit application for your Windowski police department's public safety day event. We've reviewed the application at the February 21st event review meeting. This is an event we've had for several years. I don't know how many years it is exactly. It involves closure of Windowski Falls way for the police department to host the community and public safety partner organizations to grow hot dogs and hamburgers, provide inflatable facilities for children and basically allow people in the community to get to know public safety officials in an environment that is not an emergency. Staff discussed the fact that the event date will coincide with the proposed date of the Windowski Wiffle Classic and that's proposed to be held at Casavante Meadow, but we decided that the two events actually could be mutually reinforcing and the foot traffic between the two could mutually benefit those. So no conditions for the event. You guys are always really on that that the parking and additional parking signs. I'm sure that will be fun, especially if the Wiffle pulls a big crowd. Let's hope none of the public safety people who are right there will be necessarily needed. Discussion was had. Thank you. Any questions or concerns for Heather in regards to the event? Let's use the name the Windowski Public Safety Heroes Day for Saturday, March or May 19th from 1 to 4 p.m. I see bounce house, so I'm good. Questions or concerns from the council? Any questions or concerns from the public? I do amend the permit for a second. So singing and hearing no relevant comment. The event application is presented. Second. Motion by Eric, second by Nicole. Any further discussion? Seeing none, all those in favor please say aye. Aye. Motion carries. Thank you very much. Thank you. Item E, discussion, Myers-Pool preliminary engineering and cost projection review. We're getting set up. We came to you in October and November of this past with proposed funding for a preliminary engineering study. We had done a scoping study, a community process to come to a preferred alternative for the pool. The pool committee, many of the members who are here tonight did a huge amount of community process work to get to that preferred option. The council authorized us in the fall to move forward with preliminary engineering to understand what the cost of construction would be and what the true cost of operations moving forward would be. So between November and now we have gone through that preliminary engineering process and Mark from Weston, Samson is here to walk us through that tonight and to answer any questions the council has about the engineering conducted or the financial projections. And so just a little further kind of framing for the presentation when Mark gets the technology hopefully to go. We're ready for low tech if need be. Mark is going to walk through the results of that preliminary engineering report and kind of talk at a pretty high level about what was found and how that compares to the conceptual drawings that the commission and the pool committee settled on as part of the process Jesse described. And then collectively we'll talk a little bit more about budget. I think Mark will stay pretty focused on the construction budget since those are details that he put out and then I will talk a little bit about the operational budget which we certainly have a lot of feedback from Mark on but which includes some pieces that we added in here as city staff. And then I think from there we'll discuss what I think everybody is curious about is next steps and potentially what that could look like. So let's go back to just while that's happening into the way back time machine so to speak. So as a reminder for folks who maybe are coming in midstream on the administration, Myers Pool served the community since 1978 1972. 1972 and about three years ago it was a running concern that was addressed each and every year when budget season came that we are really as I think Ray likes to use bubble gumming lists together each year and we have a bunch of engineering miracles pulled by staff to keep things going. A big part of pools for example is the filtration system. We have a really old filtration system there that they didn't sell pieces and parts to anymore, right? So it got to the point where it was determined that the pool was not functional, wasn't not safe for us to operate and run and from an operational cost we simply couldn't just repair it. That was an option. So we had engineering done that did confirm that analysis. Weston Samson also completed that engineering and gave us sort of the notice that yes you are where you thought you were the pool is not going to be operational in the future. So we started this discussion about and put together a committee that was a branch of the community services department to really look at what replacement it looked like. So there was a number of staged outreach events to do sort of big visioning but then in addition to that now they've really been in the nuts and bolts as far as what they took things to before they dropped off the stand. Sorry. No, no. Thank you for that cover. So we're going to go low tech it looks like. I think we can do it. Yeah, we can just do it. So quickly too for folks maybe watching at home and or with a device on top there is a full report council got some bits and parts of this as part of their packets but these have been on the website since Friday as well. So full preliminary engineering report including drawings and the preliminary engineering submission package which includes all the results of the various tests that happen. So if you are having a hard time sleeping and are really interested in that type of depth of engineering on that is on the website available for people to view. Diamond. It's a pleasure to be here. My name is Mark Mariano with Weston Samson Engineers and I have been working with the city since 2016 right around this time. April of 2016. Trying to understand the current needs for Winniski in regards to what you had at your existing facility and what the future facility will hold. Move it a little bit closer. The city engaged with Weston Samson back in November and the goal of this study and preliminary engineering analysis was to understand the actual costs that are going to be needed to build the facility and to also understand the unknown items out there such as geotechnical information hazardous analysis information research permits and to understand deeper and what the city wanted to see in a facility. Throughout the last three months we've compiled that into this report that you guys have. We've also developed graphics of what the future facility would look like and we try to incorporate every need that the city has present and future just to kind of give an overview of what the facility would look like. Future facility would look like it would be a two pool facility. Currently we have an L-shaped pool that has a lap section in a deeper water section not necessarily for diving. It was at one point but not deep enough by today's standards to safely dive. So the new pool would still house an arena for competition swimming that was one of the large items that the community wanted to see. But we also have a second pool. This pool would be more of a family type of pool. It would contain a beach entry which is a sloped entry where any age range anyone can gradually walk into the pool. It provides various steps for senior aerobics water aerobics teaching and a safer environment as opposed to the competition pool that has depths from 4 to 8 feet. The pool also will have a large slide. It will be kind of the centerfold of the whole attraction and will also have spray features which are interactive features that kids can play with. The building itself in review, you know, when we first developed the concept back in August 2016 we initially put a price tag of around 4.4 million for this project. One of the first items that came up in the meeting was the desire to bring that price tag down. It's obviously necessary in the community. So we looked at we stepped back a little bit and took a look at the building. The original 4.4 included a brand new building demoing everything on the site and everything new. When looking at the building the building does have a lot of character in it with the rough timber roof framing. So after analysis we really didn't see it was necessary to have to tear down this whole building. It was to renovate the storage in the concession portion and add on a filter portion of the building one of the big items for the community room is the available space for rental and it's a revenue generator for the city. So the proposed plan now is to raise the building roof about 2 foot to foot and a half and strip out everything inside, reconfigure the walls and add on to the existing building. One of the other items is allowing the building to be more ADA and ADA friendly. So on Pine Street we will have a little turnoff that will come into the property. The turnoff will allow cars to kind of get off of the travel path drop off kids and will also serve as a couple spots for handicap parking. This way people in wheelchairs do not have to cross the street and go up a parking lot that's a little bit steeper than 2%. In our findings unlike most facilities the ground conditions were more favorable than others we've seen in Vermont. We found that the material is around a gravelly material and then it gets down to the water table it's around 8 feet and it gets into more of a clay or material. So as far as ground conditions we were able to launch out the likelihood of needing piles or any sort of advanced foundation work. The other item in the study is to understand if we have any hazardous materials this building was built in 1972 during that era there is the possibility of PCBs lead asbestos. It was common in building materials at that time. Working with CC CCRPC they were actually able to provide a grant to the city for us to do that work and to do the hazardous analysis. We are still waiting on those test results because we had to go through further chains of approval to get that but it was worth it to save the amount of money that they had given us for the grant. And we also kind of we put together this plan set it's a 32 page plan set and the goal was also to get exact numbers, hard numbers of what where this project lies. Now this isn't the budget that's in here today there are items now that we can see we can value engineer down to get it to a lower number and we also, but as if this project were to be bid today that's roughly what the price tag would be around 3.7 3.7 million and I think to Mark's point there we've really through this process I think tried to take the approach of let's build the pool that the community wants and that's right for the community and then when it comes time to have the budget to the conversation be ready to scale back versus start from a really scaled down kind of baseline space so I want to thank the committee too for kind of working through that because I think we've all at time struggled with that as bringing forward a proposal that responds to what we heard from the community and then be able to whittle that back if necessary it was a better starting point so that's what we've done and the other focus is to build the durable building a facility that's going to last us another 40, 50 years that's not going to require a large amount of maintenance in year 10, year 15 so obviously there will be maintenance involved but we're trying to build the most durable building that's a piece of sustainable for the community Do you mind handing me that connector in the past? So quickly before we jump to the budgetary implications are there questions about process or about design to date again I think we've seen a lot of these designs through conversations here at this table but are there any things that are continuing to stick out as questions or before we jump into the numbers? I think it sounds like we've done as much work as possible to eliminate as many of the surprises as possible summarize it and that's reflected in the contingency you know typically on projects of this nature you care 10% we lower it to 5% because we punched out a lot of the unknowns what's the sense of maybe it's too early or maybe it's too volatile to say is there a percentage point discussion in your industry about increases of cost of construction from year to year from an escalator standpoint that are natural? Yeah you know it ranges between 2% to 4% Okay in good market years when we're not embargoing stealing stuff And is that built into the current numbers? The numbers that you're looking at today are in 2018 numbers so we would just have to do an analysis over a spreadsheet to kind of run that what it would cost in 2020 if that's the probability of this happening The design includes a community room and can you speak to the lighting that will be built into the design so that it would be safe to access in the evenings Yep so the lighting in this facility we're obviously energy conscious here will be LED lighting they can be controlled through you know timing systems and computer systems that can you know shut it off after a certain time and also the exterior of the building will be provided for security to prevent people from going in and we can even put them on motion sensors if there is activity making its way through the pool I think though just to elaborate we're not planning to light the pool deck at this point so we're not anticipating operations after hours where the pool sits is very much in the midst of a neighborhood and so we are not anticipating having lighting on the pool deck to a point how lighting to get in and out of that community room will be some after hours use Yep and it's worth note too that the community room as well as a public bathroom facility that's going to be on the pine street side of the building will have access to the Landry Park side of the park so you'll be able to get to that room both from the pool deck and from the public side so that after hours if there's an event folks will still be able to get in and use that as a gathering space even if the pool proper is not open and that fulfills the need that you guys previously had at Landry where you had a bathroom facility and it got removed correct so and here's sort of a view from the south looking towards what the pool would look like so if we can jump to the next slide this is sort of the summary slide of the construction costs again in the council packet there is a much more detailed version of this that has each kind of portion of the construction broken out but wanted to just kind of flash this here so folks would have a sense of what some of the various pieces would look like here happy to answer any specific questions about different pieces if that is something that would be helpful but again just wanted to sort of put that summary number up again because this is the price tag to build the thing and then we'll talk in a minute about what it's going to cost potentially to run it if we get there I want to take if you guys don't mind we always take public comment at the end but in a kind of a winding conversation like this might be good to give folks a question option to ask questions now any questions for council before we do that I'm not sure when we're going to talk about this but I am interested in Ray as you said earlier this is the price of building the full vision of the community what pieces do you see as sort of on the menu in terms of scaling back the price tag of the project sure I mean I think the first and the easiest one to skim off would be the slide I think that's certainly an item that could be scaled in or out pretty simply then from there I think you start looking at the possibility of the community room as a piece of that building that could come down and then I think even in more dramatic fashion one pool versus two pools is certainly part of that as well again I think in response to what we heard from the community having more options for more people to use that pool in particular from the ADA accessibility perspective that was a really big piece that came out so that's why we've looked at this model I don't think our former facility was serving that need particularly well for particular younger kids or folks with mobility issues but I think that would be sort of the third tier of if a knife were to be wielded to that budget how that might look we had thought about this going into this process is this is a great facility right here and if we can afford it let's go with it but if we do need to scale back the items such as Ray mentioned is a smaller slide possibly removing of the shade structure each one of these items can add up to just those two items scaling it down a little bit is 100,000 in this current budget that's represented up there is the contingency of finding hazardous materials at a worst case scenario so we pull that out that's 100,000 there and we look to some of the finishes maybe we don't need tile floor in there maybe we look to an epoxy resin floor those types of items that we can look at and kind of trim this down to say we're going to cut 600,000 out of the budget is a little I wouldn't agree with that but if we were to do that we'd have to phase things up but to get the entire facility I can see us cutting out 200,000 to 300,000 I mean I guess just my response to this is what the community wants I think the community also wants a pool and so if the choice is two pools or no pool I think I want to leave room for an iterative conversation I just wanted to check in around with these designs I don't think we should invest in another round of design work you know what about this work allows us to have some flexibility in terms of ongoing discussions with the community about the cost of the project and what folks really value most in terms of how much of the engineering work to date would be usable in the event that we were to go that route I would defer to my left here is I not engineer myself everything that we've done today and it's just simply pulling things out at this point so this is kind of the road map to understand what we need to cut out we might keep over and turn it over and see if there's questions or comments this isn't the last chance we'll open back up for public comment too but if you've got questions about the content that's been discussed so far we'll try to give them a chance to finish so we don't want to jump ahead too far though yes for the record my name is Dr. Ron Stortan I'm currently chair of the community services commission a couple of questions that have been asked about pulling stuff out and the comment was we can do without the slide and we can remove one of the pools doing much of the process I was the liaison from the commission to the pool committee and there was a lot of discussion about these kinds of concerns and I would say simply that we came to the conclusion that is to say the pool committee came to the conclusion and I think the commission at that time concurred that some of those things supported revenue producing aspects of the pool is to say attracting people to the pool that might not otherwise come so we would encourage the council to be reluctant if possible to cut some of those things out thank you any questions yes sir on the budget page there was a line item for a building permit $700 is that state permit yes that's the state fire building permit yes sir you made a comment about raising the roof a foot and a half and I didn't clearly understand why you were doing that and if you're raising a foot and a half why or why not raise it more the thought process in raising it to two feet is when you go in there the ceiling is lower and it gives you more of a confined feeling when you go in there the thought is to raise it will make it feel more open and will allow more natural light to come in because we're going to put glazing around that top that's been opened up to go up any higher we didn't see it was necessary because we had really high ceilings in there and it wasn't worth the cost this is correct also a lot more excuse me a lot more air cold yeah the higher we raise it we're not going to get as much updraft to be able to vent out other questions comments concerns from the public yes were there things that you decided not to put in here that were all the wishful thoughts so yeah I'll just summarize yeah there was a if there are members that got exercised they had a real buffet having watched that committee work a few meetings they had a really high demand list from splash pads to all kinds of really cool stuff climbing walls they were all over the place in terms of options and opportunities we obviously would love to incorporate those but in the background we still have the infrastructure for there if you want a climbing wall we're putting bonding lugs on the back of the gutter to be able to accept that at a later time simple things like that going through the process back in the summer of 2016 we did the dot exercise to understand what the public really wanted we had a great showing there's almost 300 people that came out and gave their input that helped us narrow the path of what we are at today and another like simple example too but Mark was really creative with the concrete deck there and actually cutting that back I think that serves two functions one is it cools down the outdoor space but also less concrete is less cost so I think those are another another example of ways that we've tried to whittle at the edges of this price tag while still staying I think in the spirit of what we heard from residents so a couple features not seen on this the entire south of the building roof has been structurally designed to be able to accept solar panels and the rainwater collected from the deck is intended to go to systems to be used for the community garden other questions? Yes sir yes sir So the operating cost which we'll get a little bit more into detail which may answer some of your questions I think the big operating cost that would be changed if we change the design certainly if we had one pool versus two that's one pumped and filter system versus two so electrical costs chemical costs water all come down the other piece especially with the slide if that goes away is staffing so this is a more complicated aquatics facility than what we've had and it's going to require some additional lifeguards on the deck because of the two pools so I think again you'd see that scale down accordingly and again I think as we get into the operational budget a little bit more that might it might be clearer where some of those pieces could move I'll make sure they loop back around to that any questions about where we're at so far won't be the last time to ask questions or have comments too one other reminder too just to a point that Councillor Covey had made a while back we did meet with ALB and talk through the design just around some of the cultural issues that could be cultural implications I guess for some of our new American residents and got really positive results there so I went over and sat with them in their office for our design so did talk that through and got some really good feedback from them so I just want to kind of loop back to that point thanks so moving that's good so moving into the operational budget we did model this out over 20 years but that would have been a pretty obnoxious slide to put up here so we stuck to the first five if you are interested in more numbers that is available on our website that full that full 20 year operating and capital and debt service expenditure I think a couple assumptions that we made here that I want to make sure to point out number one is on the revenue side up top so space rental is for rentals of the community room again a little hard to speculate on a space that we've never had so what we did was model that off of our community room at the O'Brien Centre because this is a very unique facility it's related to the pool I suspect that there will be a lot more interest in it than our community room so I feel like this is a pretty conservative estimate but we based it off sort of the best kind of peer facility that we had and then Mark and I spent quite a bit of time last week talking about this in terms of the pool fees that's really low that number is based on our historical model here when the pool was open most recently we suspect that both usership and price points would go up necessarily in a new facility but I didn't want to be trying to speculate that and I also felt like didn't want to be artificially deflating and operating budget on numbers again that we didn't have we've looked at a couple other pools regionally I don't know if you want to talk about Waterville mean? Yep so to kind of touch base on this just to kind of put into retrospect the low value of the pool fees $5,000 of revenue a year that would be 27 people per day for 60 days $3 a person so it's low a similar community Waterville mean 7,000 residents in same average income the only thing they don't have is the surrounding communities because they're basically based off of a college their average revenue and they have a similar type of program they have a pool, zero entry and the only difference is they have a separate slide pool with two slides the same similar slide their facility was built in 99 so they're at the point now where they're looking to upgrade and do some capital upgrades so it's not a brand new pristine facility their operating revenue I mean their operating costs were $81,000 in 2015 and they generated $76,000 in revenue so they had an offset by $4,000 in 2015 Werneski had a revenue of around $23 $2300 and operating costs of $38,000 and mainly most of that was water water loss so again I want to use these numbers because I think it's a very safe estimate but again I think just want to contextualize that to say we know those numbers are probably not where they would be but I think wanted to play the revenue side especially very conservatively as we talked here tonight salary and benefits to the point of the gentleman and the crowd here we did inflate the number of lifeguards Mark and I talked about sort of average number needed on duty being between three and five we worked with our HR staff here and our accountant to model staff of seven so that that would give us some opportunities to provide coverage not have people drawing over time and sort of allowed dovetailing of staff so that's what those numbers are there that's salary and fringe for those seven lifeguards we were averaging or estimating a salary of $15 an hour Mark informed me that some of the high end resorts in Las Vegas are paying 14 so that may be a little bit again conservative but I think in the interest of models here wanted to play that and that does I think trend with our grade and step system within the city one other comment on the staffing piece and it mentioned it in the memo so we had contracted out operational management of the pool to the YMCA for at least the years that I was here and I'm looking at Cindy but how long that arrangement had been with the Y to run Myers 2010 okay so for a while and that was paid out you know through a contract with the Y and then they managed staff and lifeguards so certainly would be open to that if we do get to that point in this conversation but for sake of being able to kind of tie back to some solid numbers we went with the staff being city staff and what that would cost professional services that is largely made up of custodial so we did want to add some custodial in especially if we see increased usership and that's modeled off of our senior center facility utilities is utilities so those numbers came straight from Weston and Sampson in terms of chemicals, water, power etc or sorry chemicals and specialties supplies from the state utilities water and electricity and then equipment we did add in at our accountants recommendation just a plug number here for just basic maintenance to the building toilet plugs need a plumber to come in you know sink breaks need a plumber to come in a wall needs to be painted just an annual operating building maintenance kind of number which again I think gives us a little bit more realistic expense picture so total operating for the year they're coming out right around 81,000 and again very similar to what we saw at the Waterville facility which I think is a pretty comparable example as you move down the spreadsheet that gets into the debt service so that's assuming that if we were to finance the entire cost construction cost this is what the annual debt service would look like over time and then add that up obviously to the operating expenses and you get a little bit over 410,000 annually tax rate impact of about 8 cents and an annual cost to the average home of about 183 dollars so that's sort of the picture again assuming full financing of the model that's pictured here and again presenting that knowing full well that that is not likely the picture that will come out the other end of the conversation but again wanted to model it off the real numbers that we had so are we do you want to pause for questions on budgetary stuff before we talk yep good question can you just remind me the cost of the contract with the why that we had in the past and how many lifeguards so let's see in the last year we were I believe at 32,000 for the summer and I would look to Jess for how many guards you had on at Myers that last year operation season we're estimating June 1 through August 30 which is right around what we've done traditionally the last couple years we used to be open through father's day and the last few years of operations had scaled that back to the end of August because what we found was that really once kids got back to school those last couple weeks were pretty dead the pools will be heated yeah so we could extend potentially extend the season and again back to your earlier question Nicole the heating piece is definitely a scalable item as well but that's kind of what we're estimating but in the interest of being conservative with those estimates we stuck to the traditional operating season both pools are heated yep how big of an operational difference does that make is that like a week or two extra or is that like we could really be in there hanging out in November it's not only it's not only the extension of your season it's the attraction of having higher end meets like master's meets and stuff like that that require a certain level of temperature in the pool okay so it's not only extending your season but it's providing more of an asset to attract other groups but it does functionally or at least provide some stability of predictability so it's correct if we have one of those wonderful early dunes that we sometimes have in the mott words 50s then you could still potentially yep if you have a cold tune you can't say that the pool is cold put it that way so if I heard right the previous pool scenario was like 60 grand a year to operate I believe that's about correct yep okay do you have like usage numbers we do have them off hand I know I'm looking at Jess maybe to help me remember those details you mean number of patrons yeah I think it was 130 to 150 per day okay yeah it was so weather dependent especially here and here in this area on the really really hot days you'd see close to 200 people on the really hot days but then not so hot the average would definitely be somewhere then at 125 the current facility shown today is sized for I believe 275 to 300 at one time so we've got the number of visits data and we also have the users data because that was interesting to compare to each other too because it's not like some of those uses were multiple stops by the same person I'm happy to share that with you all electronically that we do have that data thank you Mark you said the expected the life expectancy is around 40 to 50 years that's what the goal with scheduled maintenance and then if there were some of those variable cost saving decisions in regards to maybe some materials like you mentioned tile for instance does that potentially if we were to make some of those cost saving decisions cut off some of those from potential long term life expectancy so when you did the cost modeling did that include the plaster replacement so one of the items that we're proposing in the cost budget which is carried in that $3.9 million budget is the use of a pool that would require a lot less maintenance throughout its entire life which isn't represented in this number so there's a cost increase on the total pool project budget of $200,000 but that savings will save within the first 10 years of the pool's life but I think to the general question is could we value engineer our way into a shorter life span you absolutely could yes thank you so to the point of this being like $20,000 more a year have you actually modeled to see if adding a community center and then this additional pool would like cover the gap on that of that $20,000 yeah so like yeah that's a great question so I think in terms of looking as I mentioned again on the revenue side I think that increased usership likely increased fees which I think again is conservatively estimated here starts to close some of that gap looking potentially at extended seasons could also potentially close that gap I think it's a little tricky to say but I think the relative improvement in the facility compared to the relative increase in the expense I think we're getting a good value for that additional $20,000 if that somewhat interesting and actually I just want to point out that it's not just the additional $20,000 operation it's the additional debt to create the more stuff I think the debt piece you know there's no number of swimmers that are going to come through in a summer that will put I think a meaningful debt in that number that's a big number and that's a big community decision I think where the debt could make meaningful impact is around the operating costs and over time offsetting those so that when the debt sunsets you're then at a point where there's relatively less impact on the general fund operating budget makes sense at what point will the equipment budget kick in and what might be some items that might be that $4,000 so no the oh yeah so there are it's pictured I believe in the 20 years there are a few items there that are larger capital items relating to improvements so year 7 I think year 10, year 14 so again those are scheduled recommended maintenance items from Weston and Samson those could include plaster replacement cleaning of the pool pumps so the way that we modeled that budgetarily is that any items that fall below our capital threshold are included here in the operating expenses and then any items that go above that threshold of expense of $5,000 fall into a capital line here so if you go to section 8 in the booklet about 4-5 pages and you'll see part 2 capital upgrades in maintenance schedule that's kind of the roadmap of the larger items that will be replaced indicating what year their parts are going to need to be replaced and the value in 2018 we also did a future cost and that assumed a 3% inflation over that time when it would be fixed and again how the one these numbers and those numbers may not exactly jive and that's again because items that fell below that $5,000 price tag are included in the operating side versus the capital side but the totals are the same then we'd create a capital line on our capital budget for replacement cost right for the garage where we put $4,000 a year aside to replace the $13.5 million garage yeah I want to take a pause again and see given where we're at that we've talked about some of the budget numbers if there's questions from the public on the budget numbers that have been presented and again we'll swing back and see if there's any inclusionary questions or comments too yes Nate I'm Nate Burns I'm a homeowner here in I want to say this looks really great I think it looks like an attractive place that's good estimated for a house that's $225,000 we nickel and dime and cut a little bit here and cut a little there that could shape down to $150 a year but it could severely compromise how attractive this place is and how well it draws people in so I think that's just something to think about 20 to 30 bucks or something rather than to pay that extra a year to know that this is in our town thank you are there questions, comments, concerns regarding the budgetary numbers that have been presented thank you you too let's go with the straw foam although okay so I think the last piece here and I think this is a little bit where we hand the conversation off to the community our task has been to bring forward preliminary engineering report get as many of those details ironed out as possible and now I think the really hard part about how to move forward or not quite frankly with this project is where we're at so as we sat with it and thought about it some potential next steps here different options for next steps and these are no doubt oversimplified in some ways I think there's nuance in each of these but again to sort of put those up there for a way to sort of see the discussion moving forward here are some different options to proceed with one being we've moved ahead full steam, full funding and say Yahoo we've as we've talked about a little bit some sort of middle approach whereby either we're value engineering down or looking at alternative funding sources where I stack down or we set it aside I think as Jesse added in the sort of it doesn't go bad language which I think is quite true this work isn't bad tomorrow so I think it's great work that's been done it's useful still in the future but if there isn't ultimately a decision to move forward I think we keep this on a back burner and come back to it so I think definitely some so I just want to make it really clear we're not making that decision tonight correct correct thank you we're not we're not even implying a direction this is an opportunity to cover it discuss it and bring everybody up to date and be transparent about what our options relate to and in regards to the words spring vote for example what kind of timelines would that from a stacking standpoint can I so to if we wanted to move forward immediately if that's the option the community council went with we would need a bond resolution vote which could be as your next meeting and then it takes about 30 days to warn that kind of special vote of the public to take that bond vote so we're looking from April 2nd we're looking out early mid-May it could be longer than that or shorter than that depending on the community process and in terms of elections that are already built into our municipal schedule this year we have an August primary with a November general correct if I can clarify one other timing thing that we haven't gotten to yet that's reflected in your memo vote now versus a vote in August neither of those get us under construction this summer regardless we have about 9 months more of final design construction documents bidding out the process building out the contract etc so even fast tracking it for an immediate bond vote doesn't get it under construction this summer correct but I do want to caution this body against kicking that can too far down the road just from an execution and resource perspective because we're putting staff time into it we're putting energy into it and if there's enough information to start to coalesce around the decision and work toward the decision it's certainly our jobs to do that and not to hang out and say well we've got that time if we need it just my reflection on that go ahead agreed and voter turnout has an impact on the outcome of these types of votes so my preference would be to have it coalesced with another either in August primary or the November so if it is a November vote is that then impact the timeline versus August well I guess I look to mark on for the timeline it's currently laid out I think if there was an August vote getting to final engineering in winter bidding it out spring the challenge of that getting it in under construction for a full construction season next year is we might be looking at high construction costs because we would be bidding it very close to a start date so it may actually span to construction seasons in that case that's an August vote or a November vote a November vote I think would be putting us definitely into construction in 2020 the contract window for construction is approximately a year and it's just due to the nature of being in this area you have to have a three month shutdown just can't make it through the winter there's something special about spring too so you could theoretically do a June special election as well just to be clear it's not May or August or November you could theoretically do it anytime I think to your point if you do that you usually get polarized sides versus a broader community consensus around an issue that's certainly true get people who come out to vote for it and people who come out to vote against it that's traditional thinking anyway that's why one reason permits on a referendum state okay I'll open up now to see if there's any comments, thoughts concerns from council and from a content perspective again we're not expecting any kind of decision from the body tonight and then we'll turn it back to the public as soon as they want to express then it'll come back to council one last time before we close discussion so I'll open up the floor from a council perspective to see if anybody has any lingering questions for Ray or any comments concerns, questions on the process points that have been put before us from the next step so something that would be helpful for me I don't think this is easily possible with the modeling you already have but people undiming ourselves out of this more attractive facility it would be helpful for me if it was possible to see what the expenses would be for like a minimum viable replacement versus having this facility that might actually increase usership I mean I can't do that on the spot but we could certainly work up something in that vein I'd want to talk to Mark a little bit about what kind of minimal replacement would mean because again I think to the point Eric and stuff made I'm not maybe a service to create that either doesn't have the shelf life that we want or to your point maybe doesn't generate more usership or interest so I think there's a little bit of a balancing act there but we can certainly try to do something in that vein I do want to put in perspective because it warrants an understanding because some folks might look at what does the tax rate increase mean the summary tax rate increase proposed for this is I think probably five years worth of municipal increases from a historical perspective if you threw our last five years worth of municipal increases and that's what we would be looking at from an increased perspective for example this year we were right around two percent basically or excuse me right around two pennies and we're at eight cents right now year before two years ago we were at one cent year before that or year after that we were at that really backwards one point five and one one point five pennies and then one penny the two years prior to that and we've talked about the fact that we've kept those increases because we have these capital expenses on the horizon that said eight cents is a lot to swallow so my question I don't know it's not for Ray but last time we talked about this and looked at preliminary financial impacts we heard from community group interested in fundraising so I'm just wondering if we have any additional information from folks perhaps in the audience want to share that sort of where things stand on that front I think that would be useful for us to know Cindy that would be great just to thank you we won't even cut you off this time I said I won't even cut you off this time so the committee the whole committee has been kind of on a standstill kind of not we've gathered back together we've had a couple of meetings and we are still gun hope on helping to fundraise we might reach out to a number of people we have Megan who has agreed to come on board I touched base with Jeff Meiners as well and we have meetings with a couple other people in the community to see if they're willing to lend a hand we also have three or four new people who are willing to join the committee and so we're still working on helping out with fundraising we set a goal for our group of a million dollars it's a big chunk we realize that but we're going to give it our all and hopefully the best thank you thank you thank you no, I think the key part is we've got some some key people coming in some fresh ideas we've got some bites finally people want to volunteer in their time to start helping us as you know that our committee kind of disbanded and there's been several of us that have gone past but definitely getting outside people, anyone here or anyone out there wanting to try and get a hold of the city just more groups on the ground will help us Cindy I know I had joined you all for your last meeting and there was some talk about a connection you had with a professional fundraiser sitting down with the group to help put together a fundraising strategic plan and is that in the works? it is in the works, he has been out of Vermont to make his contribution and so we're just waiting for him to return thank you I think it's important that the council understand from the commission's point of view when the plan was presented and we moved it on to the council we asked the full committee to understand that their essential work on that aspect was done and that it would mean that they would have to become an independent organization at that point as regards fundraising because the city really can't be involved in private fundraising and I think the commission is I'll speak for the commission maybe rightfully maybe not but I think we're encouraged that the full committee is restructuring and is focused on the fundraising program and that significantly shows the measure of community support for the pool overall thank you there is a foundation that has already been set up is the Kenneth R. Myers full foundation it's been around for a few years we've done some bingos just a little a bit fundraising but that's where our committee is now so we are separated from the city great thank you thank you I'm going to turn back to the council now other comments concerns or questions too for our two pros over there I guess what would be useful in terms of determining a smaller financial scope in addition to potentially modeling what a different type of structure would look like what's the tax impact if it's a $500,000 fundraising effort versus $1,000,000 versus $250,000 to give council a sense of the impact of and the community, the marginal impact of an additional $100,000 raised means the tax rate goes down by X amount so that would be very useful information I really don't like throwing ideas like this on the fly without talking to you about them first but two I would think you would when I attach those to items that are interchangeable in design and specify what those potential costs could go towards because at some point we have to limber forward with a number and that number needs to create a pool with all due respect to a community to the south that's the issue that's taking place another community in Vermont is that they didn't bond enough money and that's the disaster we all want to avoid by setting ourselves up by saying we want to bond this and then there's going to be this probably better to have some interchangeable parts that could or could not be there so if the slides 100,000 whatever maybe components that could be removed later on I hate value engineering but I think that's what we're doing it could I don't know much about fundraising but it could help us raise money for a pool or for a slide for a pool I mean yes I like that just from the city's perspective and this is another one that I have invented with you guys which is always great when it comes out in public meetings so surprised I think we'll probably do for some additional kind of public outreach outside of a formal council meeting too and would like to think about that idea an explanation of costs to start to have that conversation in the community if it's maybe thinking about a community dinner but I think where it's an informational one page informational thing that people can look at and read to understand the issue because especially for having an informed conversation we need to make sure people have access to the information this has been great, this is very good but we're always going to with all due respect everybody here we're always going to draw people who feel very strongly one way or the other about it and there needs I think we have to think through that and I'm not saying directly what that is but I think that's a that's going to have to be part of what we do next that's a great question, I think certainly in the short term mentioned earlier that website page is hopefully a repository we've got all the sort of documents throughout this process there so it's just when you see vt.org slash pool certainly if people can get online and view things there that's a great starting point but I think it's good feedback and we'll mull that over a little bit that's just a good idea to ask people to go through you didn't like the 5 page or I can't the 5 page is added in the process of trying to organize a Sunday meet and greet brush type event and hopefully it'll be the next month that will be calendar and will be advertised but that has been discussed and hopefully it will be in the works and I'll just add for this group you know and this is again this is just being blunt aside from participation and out now advocacy we need to work towards that strategic vision and conversation whereby we have some priority conversations and we get a sense from this body and this body has that opportunity to have a conversation what are those strategic investments we want to see take place over the next what do we want to really move the needle on over the next two years at least well 12 months I get confidence at least two years hopefully in this council's iteration so I think that's a really important conversation because from a funding perspective it's we've got to kind of have an understanding that when you do something like this or the project we're going to talk about next from our standpoint again we don't just then do six or seven other things we're committing our resources towards very specific outcomes that we're wetting ourselves to for a long time this has been really well done and really well meted but that's a conversation too I think body needs to have again too which is coming up so and then I think it's relieving from a pressure standpoint to know that the dates you know aren't set in stone from when things need to happen but I think we should probably bring this back in pretty rapid succession and we'll talk maybe about that too awful on about how we do that because I think to having it come back in three months you know this is a great initial conversation for this group of education let's keep the momentum going on that questions, comments or thoughts about that I mean I think from the takeaway pieces we're interested in hearing outcome again staged plans for what fundraising goals and efforts will be and don't worry we're going to turn back towards public so don't let the blood run out of your arms we've got the opportunity to we've got a couple questions on the engineering piece on the dollar amount which I think are great I think coming back for that discussion whenever that information is available it would be awesome and we've asked for some data on usage any other needs from council in terms of prepping for next conversation if you think of something later you can send along to Jesse and Ray I think it would just be great to you know let the folks from the fundraising committee know sort of generally when that when the pool is going to be coming up again so that they can be prepared to give an update sure what we're talking about is that a couple weeks kind of scope of work or I think probably at this point I think like Mark said those details are here it's just a matter of how we kind of move things around on the board so I think that that's realistically a couple weeks yeah so I would your next agenda item is a big agenda item as well and has much much more prescribed time frame requirement so I think you might want to hold the decision about when this comes back before you until we talk about that item and how the two may or may not interplay I think we might need to fast-track and bring you back some information pretty quickly yeah so we'll see you next maybe next week I'll be here other questions comments from council now we'll turn back to the public other questions summary comments yes ma'am they're same type of structure where it's seasonal you need a seasonal pass family pass individual seasonal pass people outside their tax base pay a higher fee and they do have the seasonal you know the individual daily admission similar community Rutland that's going to be opening this year their daily entry child is $5 I think 7 for an adult that's daily season pass is trying to remember it was $45 for the season for a resident in the Rutland model so our prices before as a comparison we were charging a dollar a day and like 25 or 30 bucks I think for the season so they were really low and we didn't we we chose not to increase those because we didn't have time making a lot of investments in the facility and it didn't feel right to be charging more for the same thing so again I think that's a conversation for down the road but I do think there's a fee structure conversation for us to have but we've got some good models to kind of build around yes ma'am I would add to that there's the additional local pools that are outdoors there are a few outdoor pools and assets and that's every year when we look at increase and fees are not the ones right here in this area and what I went to everything from those municipal pools as well as the private plane moment outdoor pools so there are similarly great models locally and they all follow that there's a great significant difference between a resident and then a non resident any questions, comments, concerns yes ma'am I want to thank everyone that's been involved with this because it looks like a really nice blending of community wants were and supplying a lot of different features that will appeal to a lot of young families and their children and I think the fact that you have projected 4.4 million and now you've come in at 3.7 now contingencies I mean that couldn't have been easy and I applaud the work I think it looks beautiful and I hope that you can ask the city to bond the full cost for this tax payers and I also think in 5 years time when the tiff ends we'll be able to pay off the whole bond oh I know that's a fact but we'll be able to pay down a lot of the costs of that early and not be a tax payer I don't know if everybody wants to to mark that tiff money but I really approve of this training thank you I understand the public yes ma'am so just from a many stand point I understand that you won't get any other information from the council until your next meeting yeah it sounds like next meeting there's some questions some outstanding items for them to work on we want to hear with the baseline those scaled back option was along with some of those data points and what are the usage pieces April 2nd 1st and 3rd Mondays of months I'm just trying to understand when a decision on the option would be because obviously if you guys are going to pick option 1 and we're going to have a gym vote there's a lot of work that needs to be done before gym 1 so just being kept in the loop about any decisions that are being made the committee would greatly appreciate that and I think too that's part of that instruction was to look at potentially using interchangeable things for fundraising benchmarks so that we can go there would be the potential to move forward with something with the option to add those features in with the money that supports that from that goal that way you end with a pool you're not contingent upon fundraising for the execution of a pool itself but maybe some of the features are subject too right, but if you're thinking maybe you also have to we need to know the facts because we can't get our mission statement together for our fundraising if we don't have all the facts in front of us I hate to go and ask people for money especially if people are going to donate $100,000 they come to the grand opening we don't have a big slide well if you tell us we have a big slide we scale back we can't go with our mission statement get our literature straightened out if we don't have all the facts put in the pool operational costs, maintenance costs we need to know all this stuff for us to be more effective on our funders and I personally think if we can raise a million dollars we're going to need all this information forward with the proposal that's been here tonight as what is before council and it's just got to be explained to people I mean that's not an unusual conversation to be had any large project that has vetted donors like that there's always some engineering that take place until the last piece of of something is put in so I think we've I feel like there's a lot of information there to go with I'm not sure what other answers we're looking for anything definitively but I mean I think that's a pretty concrete summary that's in those books and those plans from what it looks like I mean you're right there could be a slide there could not be a slide but I think people from an understanding standpoint I don't think are going to hopefully make donations based off of that I think what would be interesting is to make sure we're communicating if it's just going to the general budget or if it's going towards specific items I mean again that's just an idea thrown out so you guys should I think as we respond to your need of itemizing some of those pieces I'm happy to share that back with Cindy and Mike and the fundraising committee and then like you said give them a little bit of a shopping list to work from for some of those scalable items so yeah we'll make sure to be in touch there going through this process when we first started out in November we actually really did not take anything away from the pool we looked at other things and going forward on that what you're asking us today we probably would prioritize the items that the pool, the slide, the features that are actually going to attract people would be the last things you'd cut out you know if you had epoxy floor versus tile floor I don't think someone's really going to realize that but if you don't have a slide there and we're showing the slide there is a difference great any other questions, comments, concerns from the public yes I just want to say that if the council has any particular questions that they'd like the commission to look at in order to look at a game to get off a better perspective Roy and I regularly get together to plan the agenda for the commission and we'll certainly stand ready to take a charge from the council thank you Ron, thanks for your time and the commission too I appreciate it other comments, questions, concerns from the public all right, we're on Ian got to get to end so thank you for the time, I appreciate that thank you for all the work, I appreciate it thanks for joining us tonight, thank you very much okay yeah, sure we'll take a two minute break to allow some shifting around to take place, we'll reconvene at ooh, just turned 52 754 you have a lot of extra copies yep, yep, if you want it I can leave these here with you I'll I'll keep them I can maybe see the commission they want some too I'll give if they want because you made like 12 which is a kick beyond what we needed nice work, man thanks thanks for dealing with the technology I swear I got that projector we should put a line out of it I know 150 I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I I 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