 No Cold War, Pivot to Peace, Show Up America and World Beyond War. This coalition continues to grow and we're happy that you were able to join us today. And this weekend, many of our community joined over a thousand people in the streets of Oakland, masked up and safe to rise for peace and response to the violence against the Chinese population there. It was a beautiful gathering, and yet antagonism towards China continues out of the White House. The first casualty of this US war on China is violence against Asians in the United States. Another casualty is the truth. And you know, we have our action towards PBS that you can join. Angela will post it in the chat, but PBS is censoring a film that they funded about how China took its people out of extreme poverty by award-winning director Peter Getzels. And it's being censored. It was not censored or affected by any way by the Chinese government. So we hope you can act on that one. We really want to raise that up because it's so crazy. And as people have been able to watch the film, our last interview was with Peter and he's made it available. You see that it's the most straightforward educational film, what a documentary should be, that he went in with a question, wow, how did they do this? How do you take people out of poverty? And he got answers. Maybe they're not answers that people like, maybe they don't make you feel good, but he got real answers that, you know, well, somebody did this and this is how it has to happen. And it was not, and now we're kind of impoverished by the information if we live in the United States. So hope you'll act on that one. So, you know, we continue to find as we talk to activists and our organizers in the streets that there's a lot of confusion about China. And so I reached out to my brilliant friend who I have often been in the streets with against war, Chris Hedges, to join us today to talk about propaganda that leads us to war. Chris is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist, a Presbyterian minister, a journalist, an author, a television host. He's written many, many books on the state of the world, but my two favorite are war is a force that gives us meaning and what every person should know about war. These he wrote after nearly two decades as a foreign correspondent in Central America, the Middle East, Africa, and the Balkans. He's seen war up close and very personal. Welcome, Chris. Thank you for joining me. Thanks, Jody. So can we start by talking about, you know, what you've seen around the US war on China and your concerns just Well, we do have an enemy, but to quote Carl Leibnick it's the enemy within. It's the military industrial complex that has no restraint, no control, no regulation. It used to be that under the old Democratic Party they would at least challenge certain weapons systems. They do not anymore. Trump got more money than they even asked for. And any society that allows a military to grow that powerful economically and politically, inevitably lurches towards catastrophe and go read Barbara Tuckman's The Proud Tower on the start of World War one, where in particular was German militarism in particular, led by the Kaiser that just precipitated a war that should have never been fought and ended up in suicidal folly for France, Britain, and Germany itself. So, why is an out of control military so dangerous. If you come out of the military culture, you are historically culturally and usually linguistically illiterate, you believe in the myth of whatever civilization, whether it's German chauvinism and World War one or American exceptionalism. And that chauvinism that sense of exceptionalism. The flip side of that is racism. It's about the denigration of the other. I just actually reread Edward Said's Orientalism which is precisely about that it is, it is about in order to create the mythology of whiteness Du Bois writes about this Baldwin writes about this which is also of course, a myth. You, you, you, you take a racial characteristic and you endow it with all sorts of virtues. These are completely fictitious and that and then you set these virtues against the other. You're not much part of the military culture because in order to kill. You must dehumanize. You must look at the other not as somebody who has your capacity for empathy who you turn them into an object. And so, the military culture is one that is designed to speak exclusively in the language of force you you don't communicate any other way. You communicate through violence and because there's been no control and because we've eviscerated our diplomatic institutions and when I even when I was overseas. 40% of the embassy was military intelligence and half the time the ambassador didn't know what the CIA station chief was doing. Go back and read. I'm going to answer or the devil's chessboard by David Talbot to see, you know, what these intelligence service what this military kind of intelligence industrial complex is about. It is one that has not just now but through ever since World War two engaged in torture. Extraordinary rendition kidnapping this happened under Dulles Alan Dulles immediately in the immediate aftermath of World War two. It's not an intelligence gathering service as such. It seeks to overthrow governments are bends and water in Guatemala, or most today in Iran. Kinoshay and chili etc etc. So what we have kind of been asleep at the switch on is this military complex with tremendous resources has created a ring around China the same way they have with Russia. Imagine if we had, you know, the Chinese fleet off the coast of California, or if we had nuclear missiles stationed, you know, within close proximity of the border of the United States. So if you look at the map but john Pilger did a pretty good film on this a few years ago, called the coming war with China but if you just look at the map, whether it's Okinawa or outside of Australia or the Marshall Islands. And what they have done is create a kind of giant rat trap, so that if there was a war they can shut down the shipping lanes, and, of course, have a nuclear capacity to obliterate China, but let's be clear though I mean any nuclear war is not going to just obliterate all of us. Most scientists say that it would create a kind of massive kind of black cloud that would the entire earth would be covered in ice for one or two years I mean it's the end of human existence and and the existence of most other life forms not that of course we're slowly getting there, not even slowly anymore But you know societies that can't control their military live deeply to regret it. And so that ethos that dehumanization that celebration of fictitious virtues of the white race or whatever imperial race. It is your blessing, which is usually white is one by the lens by which they look at the entire world. They don't know anything about China that you know nationalists always look at other people and see themselves. They see their own lust for violence they see their own prejudices I mean, you know I had famous kind of battles with Christopher Hitchens and Sam Harris after 911. So I mean here you I spent seven years in the Middle East. I was the Middle East bureau chief for the New York Times I'm an Arabic speaker. These people don't know anything about the Middle East they don't but they don't believe they need to know anything about the Middle East they don't. And this is what's happening with China, also Russia I mean we the difference is China is a harder target because there's so much manufacturing in China. That doesn't mean that you know we won't the military, which has no restraints. It won't be led into a conflict which I pray to God won't happen. Russia is an easier target I mean militarily compared to the United States. You know Russia is the Alabama National Guard I mean Russia just didn't even have a military of any potency. But the United States encroachment on China is parallels the encroachment on Russia I mean the whole crime issue is really centered around the fact that the United States wanted to establish a base, a naval base in the crime and control the black sea with things we would permit to happen in our own geographical proximity so the fact that the military is so awash in funding and is so unaccountable. And because of the nature of the military itself. The United States military has become a phenomenally dangerous entity, not only the global world peace but to American democracy itself, and the Biden administration isn't going to take on the at this point the defense contractor I think we have 20 years in the Middle East of endless war, which have been a complete catastrophe of certainly first and foremost to the people in Iraq and Afghanistan and Syria and Libya and everywhere else. But it's just been an utter failure I mean it is. And these held accountable the other generals all get promoted and then when they retire they all go to Raytheon and, and then after a new administration they go from Raytheon back to the Defense Department it's utterly incestuous. The cruise missile I believe costs about a million dollars so you know let's drop how many cruise missiles did we drop on Libya. Quite a few, and then they make more. I mean that's, there's no, there's no rationale to continue these conflicts, except that war is a business, they make a lot of money. So yes, I think you're, you're right to, and I worry about it because you don't want foreign policy left in the hands of, of generals, and because they will, they will do what they're trained to do and that is issue closer and closer to a conflict even if that conflict is suicide. That was awesome, because it's so hard to do this work when you're looking at, I call it barbarism of, of the military, and we pretend to be civilized. But when you think about a drone strike in the middle of Pakistan, killing you know hundreds of innocent people. That's barbarianism. I mean, and we say that's the word that we use to describe them. But when we were in Pakistan and met with some of the drone victims. They said, we said, if you had a drone, what would you do when you could fly over the United States and they said, nothing, because it would kill innocent people. But we don't see people as innocent, we just see them as transactional needs to our greed. I think there's this problem. It's like my, my last question to you is, why do people believe these lies, the drivers to war, even in the face of losing the Korean War, losing the Vietnam War, and losing, you know, five trillion dollars and how many lives in your lifetime in, you know, the Middle East. Why would we, why would believe more lies. It's self celebration. I mean, if you look at 911. It was a celebration of us. And our power, and especially in given the breakdown and decay within American society, suddenly you're all united. It's a kind of false camaraderie, but you're all one in this great battle. But when I was very vocal about my, my calls not to support the invasion of Iraq. I would come into the New York Times and the phone messaging system on my phone would just be filled with death threats and hate messages until they run out of space. Why? It's because I was challenging a self identification. I was challenging that whole existential notion of us as a virtuous, great, powerful people that a lot of alienated people who had been discarded by capitalism needed and imbibed to give themselves a kind of sense worth and a sense of belonging. So that's why, and it always works. And it, you know, it's there's a good book by Samuel Heinz who was Marine Corps pilot in the South Pacific and World War two and then went on to teach literature at Princeton he was actually my neighbor, just down the street. We lost him a little while ago, called a soldier's tale and it talks about that trajectory, of course, I mean war is always about betrayal, betrayal of the young by the old betrayal of soldiers by politicians. But it works. And it works, especially for people who are disenfranchised my own family comes from Maine lower working class. They were all in the military, all including my grandfather and my uncle who fought in the South Pacific and was destroyed by the war. So, but every generation, especially when you come out and we have to remember the military because there's no draft. These middle class kids upper middle class kids, they don't go into the military. I mean these, these elite schools of Princeton's down the street I've taught at Princeton, they're not going to the military. I will get out to some of these community colleges that I speak to I was at in northern Minnesota. I forget the name of it Manitoba State or something, but the professors were telling me that the military has the ability to come in and get the transcripts of the students, and they know who's going to flunk out in real time and they show up at their door. And of course in that area there's a lot of indigenous, a lot of native Americans and they're sucked right into the military machine. So, what you're by the reason it works is because it's a self exaltation very sick self exaltation by the society, and it is effective, particularly with those people who feel alienated and vulnerable within that society, and they will react to you with a kind of violence, when you challenge that because for many of them at that moment that's kind of all they have. Whoa. So, also, you know, we just watched what happened on January six and you talk about that, you know the poison side. I mean, that's fueled by the military, because a lot of you look at the leaders and a lot of people were there. That those are people that have been to war. Yeah, well you go to war you get damaged all of us, I can carry a gun but I got damaged like anybody who spent a lot of time around that industrial violence for prolonged periods of time. Yeah, of course I mean there are a lot of those people are damaged I teach in a prison how many prison guards, most are huge percentage of the prison corrections officers were in Iraq and Afghanistan. Of course, it's a great job if you come back filled with PTSD and a loss for sadism. It's you'll probably get promoted. Same thing with law enforcement. So, yeah, you are creating a damaged underclass that gets sucked into the those positions whether it's the police or the prison system, where they do the dirty work for empire internally right there were a lot of those people were vets I mean it was fascinating especially watching the when they breached when they all lined up and they were wearing Kevlar equipment. And they clearly had been trained they knew exactly what they were doing. And that is some because when they come back, of course they're thrown right back into the same. You know they're there, they're there, despite all the rhetoric. And this always been true with war. I mean, so they go right back into these decay communities where there are no real jobs. That's why the suicide rates are so high. And, you know that that again is a factor of all war Kipling roaded, you know, it's Johnny this and Johnny that and throw him out the brute but it's savior of your country when the guns begin to shoot. So, you know there's an existential crisis, especially if you're a combat soldier, because if you go overseas, you understand if you experience combat all the lies that are told to you by the state by the church by educational systems and everything else about war and patriotism. You can only bond with your own. And there's a, you know, we saw this after Vietnam. And there is a legitimate kind of rage you've suffered trauma. And yes, I think that on the two things that I saw on the sixth or one, you're very right that there clearly was a significant number of people who had been within the military but also of the connecting tissue with all of these groups was Christian fascism which I've written a lot about. So what about the propaganda that drives the electorate to the war that makes war okay or makes all this money that goes to military okay I mean for me, you know why did I start trying to not our enemies all the same I was like, this feels like pre Iraq all over again. There's all these lies, they're proliferating I see them everywhere. They don't make sense. You know it's like why would somebody say that it doesn't even make sense or this person's never been to China or it's trying to pull the heart string around human rights but it's not about human rights if you cared about human rights you wouldn't let Palestinians you wouldn't fund Israel to imprison Palestinians or you wouldn't be letting Saudi Arabia bomb Yemeni. I mean I care about human rights. I know what that looks like. And if you're driving to war the first casualty of war is human rights so this doesn't even make sense. You're watching a proliferation of lies, and then, then you're watching lies about coven well we had a pandemic that started in the United States that killed more people than than coven it's gold or, you know, it just, it's pulling it really loose straws to try to tie a bow around and so, and now I just keep watching the propaganda and then people don't know what to do. It reminds me a little bit about being in Brazil. When Bolsonaro was running and I saw the ads on on WhatsApp, and I felt my brain flip like it couldn't vote for the other guy because you don't know you reach this doubt place. And I feel like, you know, is that what it does is it puts us in doubt, and therefore it puts us in fear, and therefore we're going to say okay more another trillion dollars to make more nuclear weapons because we have to fight China. One, it fills an emotional void. So in that effect doesn't have to make sense of course it doesn't make sense. You know it's always irrational but we don't live in a Cartesian world unless you're known Chomsky who I love I'm not in any way slamming know me is our greatest intellectual. So, that's number one. And number two you're right fear fear is the key. And any despotic society we live in one has to use fear to keep the populace in check. So after 911, you know, Muslim quote unquote terrorists were about to blow us all up in our Walmarts. It was code orange or code who knows code pink. I don't know. It didn't happen. I mean it didn't happen. And then remember they were supposed to storm all the state capitals and everybody. So it's just, you know that it's a perpetuation of fear, because it justifies. I mean this is the whole Biden was instrumental in this the whole expansion the militarization of police expansion of the prison system to obscene levels 25% of the world's prison population United States. And based on fear super predators and crack killers and you know it was all fictitious but it was fear. And now they're using fear of of the right wing fear of Russia fear of China they don't, they don't really care it's never rational. And it's to issue issues it fills that emotional void us as powerful great Americans, imposing our virtues on others by force look that it and everybody becomes susceptible I mean the, I was teaching at Princeton. During the calls to invade Afghanistan, and all those quote unquote liberal professors were buying this garbage about sending the hundred first airborne to Afghanistan to liberate women. And I kept saying, I was the only one who watched these weapons systems I said I'm sorry, you know what's your fire 155 how it serves are using hellfire missiles. You can't talk to me about human rights. You're talking about as we've sung you know whole villages or you know with helicopters, you know firing 50 caliber machine guns ammunition, you know, slaughtering all mass. But they didn't hear it. I mean they could not hear it. And I think that that it was, you know it's not they weren't stupid I mean they're quite well educated and thoughtful, but they had that emotional. When Hitler invaded France and Poland, you know started World War two I think there were something like 40 full professors of history in the German University they all signed a letter saying that these other countries were aggressors against Germany I mean, so it doesn't matter your educational level again this is this is an emotional seduction. In some ways the intellectuals are worse because they're kind of out on the fringes of society and suddenly. Like if they're I mean Michael Ignatie of a hitchhens all these people I was battling 20 years ago when we started the war in Iraq, they were certainly bright capable thoughtful people but they, they, they carried the banner for Paul Wolfowitz and all these other roles that got us into the war. And, you know, emotional, that emotional susceptibility doesn't exclude the intellectual class. So, yeah, I think it's those two things it is the emotional seduction and then it is the very careful orchestration of fear, and most people, you know Americans in other languages they, they, they are not well versed the way Europeans are in other cultures in China is very easily character character, you know becomes a character choice very easy to turn it into a character chore. The same thing with Russia, of course, but you know why is NATO expanded up to the border of Russia well because all of those former and we had of course promised Gorbachev that we would not extend NATO beyond the borders of Germany we we totally was total on the part of the United States. Why because it's billions and billions and billions of dollars in arms equipment I was in Warsaw. A while ago, I got in the airport there was a giant billboard of saying from Raytheon Raytheon working with the people of Poland or something like this. Yeah, so it's, it's, it's, it's a way to make money. It's these is the merchants of death and and we can't control them we don't control them anymore. And that that's why it's so dangerous. Well, and the interesting thing is they're about control, but they can that they they think war can control something which wars the opposite it's, it's full on chaos, and they failed at that constantly but they keep in their minds thinking they're going to get troll something in the war. And so, Chris that was very sad because I'm like what do what, what do you say to an activist that's being targeted by the State Department, the left and the progressives are being targeted by the State Department to be the people that drive us to war with China. They drove us to war with Iraq, Jody, I mean, you know the, the liberals couldn't sign on for the war in Iraq fast enough. And so you and I and a few of us were out there but I was being attacked by name, you know by George Packer, you know people like this. So liberals, I'm talking progressives and left, I'm talking that they are trying to get in hooked in to create some form of racism they're working in black communities they're working in in Latin communities, China's your enemy it's taking your jobs it's you know like, no China did not take your jobs general motors took your jobs. But you know like, you know it's just, but it gets in there it's like, well they've you know they're destroying America because. And so it's, it's, it's really like people that's the, not the people that you would think that would be driving you to war because they're getting in there with stories of human rights abuses and to bet. And, and, you know, here's this hook I'm going to use, and you could change you could save the Tibetan people by like going to war with China, like such an outrageous concept. I don't even know, you know, but that is classic propaganda. I mean, and it works. You protect yourself from propaganda. I guess it's the hell off a social media. I mean, I'm not on I have, I am not on social media. I don't have a Facebook, somebody runs a Twitter account I think somebody might even run a Facebook account for me. I can't see it I'm not on it. I mean, you know that social media is very pernicious I mean no man's right about this. We have to remain rooted in. I mean the thing about America is that you can find the information in a print in print. But then worry about it because no one reads anymore. So it's there. And, and, and a social media plays very effectively on those constant dopamine hits. The images were very powerful manipulated images. So, I would say the first thing is sever yourself as much as possible from social media and inform yourself, educate yourself, actually studied Mandarin, not. I was the worst Mandarin student. My Mandarin teacher said that I spoke no tone Mandarin, Mandarin has poor tones. Normally. I tried. I was also a problem because my wife is she's from Canada, but her parents are from Hong Kong goes she speaks Cantonese so I was in a room with someone who spoke fluent Cantonese somebody so I really humbling humbling would be maybe humiliating would be a better word. But I did try for several months. You know, you, you must reach out as much as possible I speak other languages obviously it's, you know, we must be in the power, especially for an American of learning to speak another language well, is that when you speak that language, you have the ability to step into another culture and look back at your own culture. And that's key. In terms of understanding who we are. We're able to see ourselves from the other I mean as an Arabic speaker who spent a lot of time in Gaza. I began to be able to see and I spent six years in Latin America. I began to see who we were as a people. And, and unfortunately that linguistic and cultural illiteracy plays into the hands of the propagandists completely. I suppose I'm in some dark way they want us to remain that way, because we're more easily manipulated. Well that's why they destroyed the education system. So, okay. Then, you know, we have to do more I mean because basically we live in a war economy culture. And so we have to divest ourselves because we ourselves are sucking at the tit of the war economy culture and we don't know it thinking that it's life when it's destroying everything. So, um, okay so see fear and educate instead, and, and step outside of the madness of what it is to be in the United States of America that's always double speak right understand that we do have an enemy, and it's called the Pentagon. Okay. The, the most destructive force to not only global peace but American democracy. Leibniz was right about that. Leibniz said that at the on the eve of World War one. The German military will destroy this country, which it did. And the, and an unregulated, uncontrolled, unaccountable military machine of this size will destroy us. And, and perhaps even the very planet that gives us life. Wow. Thank you I want to end there because I think you know what we're doing a code pink is really to remind everyone that war is never the answer. Yeah. And that you know, last night we were with Barbara Lee and Marco can who've created a congressional committee to work on defunding the Pentagon. And we all need to be standing behind that because China's not our enemy and we have to pull the pants down at the Pentagon, so people can see it for what it is and how dangerous it is to life on the planet, which is what Chris just said. So Chris thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you for all you think about and care about and share, and for giving us so much to read. We're going to develop the reading list out of this so we can. All right. Thank you so much. Thanks for joining us today please see all the links in the chat and engage at code pink slash China. Peace on words.