 tell about our board meetings this week. Is there anything that council should know about that is coming forward? I'll go. Well, the main two board-related things that I have got going on, and first of all, we've been doing some recruiting activities. Which one? All. Oh, welcome. Oh, all of it? Yeah. So what we did was we went to, we resurrected, I was working with Don and Art Quintana and Carmen, about what the barriers were for the basic people from the Spanish community, although others were like the barriers were. And so we went to see, we started accepting printed pages, printed applications. And there are printed applications at the senior center for any board. And it's on their display, pick up an application here. And then there are e-for-all, because they have non-Spanish speaking startups going through their process. And it would probably benefit almost any of them to have a board member as part of the startup, because it helps with networking and everything. We have this work and all of that. So that's basically as much outreach as we got done so far, but it's more than done. And Carmen said, you know, startups will apply little, because the first year is not going to be much, no matter what week. So we did that. And then the other exciting piece is that the Stabilty Board has been getting seriously inundated with anti-EMF emails to the extent that it was essentially taking all Heather's time to forward the emails, because there are emails on public. So they decided that no other board accepts emails from the public at all. And so they aren't going to stop forwarding them. And they put some limits on public. They invited to be interviewed to class on the agenda. And that was all that they could do. But I find it troublesome that a faction, especially a mostly out-of-town faction, would take advantage of a volunteer advisory board in that way. So I don't know. Sadly, one of the board members is part of the faction. So that's the reason maybe how we get to the board at all. So nothing else out of the way. Let's see. There's, on the art and public places, they juried last week 11 sculptures. And I had a conflict at the end. So I had to leave so I didn't find out exactly what they were looking. But they're excited about that. On the RCAB board, they're still kind of fashion their teeth around the A-1 issue in regards to that. And in regards to the consortium of cities, there's this Jeff Calhoun with the Boulder Labor Council, the AFL-CIO, and Lauren Baldwin, if I'm saying right from Boulder City Council, who wants us to have some sort of take on a minimum wage initiative. And I've kind of stayed up until I talked to you all to see what your thoughts were in regards to that, because you didn't want to tell them A or A or hold support or not. So maybe this is an issue that we need to put on with council, maybe at a date soon, so that I can give them our stance on it or what we want. Have I spoken to Jeff? Yes, and just to finish. So Jeff, I asked him if he would be interested in presenting the whole initiative to council, and that tonight wasn't a good night, and next week we're canceled, so perhaps in two weeks if he could come and really explain what it's all about. And so he's good with that. So I'll talk to Harold about putting that on the agenda. My impression, this was about implementing legislation that was passed in 2018, and whatever that strategy is, that's as far as we go with the conversation. Yeah, and I think, yeah. I did a lot more listening than I did docking, I just wanted to make sure. Sean, if you want to catch me after, they were right up to the brink on that before we switched over. I think, Susie, you did some representation on that as well. Do you have one conflict on the fifth? I'm wondering if you wouldn't go for me. Yeah, I guess, I am the alter. I just have a conference, I'm taking students to and it would be hard for me to try to zoom in and everything, so I'll send them an email then, and I'll include you. Should we get anything? So transportation board meeting, advisory board was really good. It was really good, except that there wasn't enough participants on that Monday. Someone else moved out of the city in a moment, why were they there? I don't know. So they didn't have a forum to hold on anything, but Glen and Phil had the presentation of Third Street and all the changes that's going on as far as the walkways and everything, it took up like a whole table, it was really big, and we had public invited to be heard, probably around 10 people there, so it was really amazing to hear their suggestions, their comments, and then also of course their issues. So they were there to actually ask those questions for them, and they were there in Glen and Phil were there to answer them, so which was really, really good. I told them since we were down with a couple of people on the advisory board, we should probably be reporting them. So at least for them to think about applying. So it was very informative, and I appreciate all of the work they put into the cabinet map in actually explaining every street that they're working on. So that was really good. Yeah. Planning zoning was canceled, so there's no report there. Historic Preservation Commission is about to go into their retreat with a week or two, after finalizing their retreat, they heard a presentation on 150 Francis, that's coming forth to time, specifically having to do around, there's some sheds or outbuildings that are in the right of way that need to be moved or demolished, and so they're getting an update on whether they were adding any sort of value, things along those lines, and they've gotten pretty much their final update on the city and the developer of, I think it's a 7-11 or something, over on this Latin cross from the Walmart, and they opened Mary Dickens Farm, has agreed in principle, I believe, so that the barn will be saved and a piece of the land will be dedicated to the city is the agreement that occurred, that they were talking about, so they're happy with that. They still would have liked more, but it's gone back and forth a few times, and so they're pretty happy with this resolution. So because of the dedication of land and such to the city, and Mike, I'm the Forest City Council, LPM's meeting is Thursday, so I think we're going to be able to update from that point of view. The Pratt Board was appreciative to hear all that put together, or something like that in the future direction. Not a D8 chart, but it looks a lot like a D8 chart, to kind of lay out the 8-in-5 schedule, 8 parks in 5 years, along with the update on the other set. So that was a major part of the discussion. They continue to be highly interested and concerned about the backlog of what's in the cube in the out years that hasn't shown up yet. And I'm going to think about setting priorities. They're also in the process of finding dates and questions or topics for finding an agreement. The Golf Board, I will say, they are today deeply knowledgeable about the causes and the effects of frost. Very impressive piece of information. I learned a lot about the causes and the effects of frost. But there had been much golf play recently, so there wasn't much to report, other than the answer to the question. Harold and I have met with a girl not too long ago. And I would try to explain, but it's the complexity of the finances and owning debt, and trying to make the right investments, and the employees return. But that's it. I have a question on it. Is the future park up north, and none of the 8 in 5 parks? The future park? Montgomery? I don't know, not Montgomery Park. Fox Minnows? I wouldn't call it future park. Where the kids have the jumps. That is the 8 in 5. To the group, that is very interesting. I like being on that board, but it's very involved, and I think it's really hard to have a retirement fund at 101 in a year, and know everything about it. I'm very interested that the employee, who was the other girl, the one employee that was speaking, I didn't know any. We're a 2G city, right? Yeah. He was a good representative for the employees, because he asks a lot of questions, pertinent questions. I was impressed. He was very involved with that. He had to be there. So, basically, we're all about transportation, and we are exactly where we were the last time when we was a music hit then. Harold and Debra Johnson, myself, Eric Davidson, Linda Pricinger, and Phil are going to have a meeting, a Zoom meeting, to talk about partnerships for Intercity Transit. I think I said this last time, which is why nothing's changed. We haven't had a meeting yet. So, we're also talking about composting. There's a big discussion about a compost facility. And what I asked Margo Lodzini actually yesterday morning on the call is that, and I've read it past Jarda Kamenees as well, is that composting is something that all of us should understand, so that when the residents come to us, we understand that there are different types of composting for different types of materials, different type of composting for food, for yard waste, for the dinnerware that is compostable, and napkins, and everything else. And that when they say, I don't want this because it smells, we should know what type of a composting facility would help with that smell, or if we're thinking about down the road. So, if you agree at some point, we'll bring it up. I would like to have a, at our commissioner and city council meeting the next time that we have that explained to us by Charlie. Because I always find it frustrating that everybody knows a little bit about different parts and we don't really know the whole scope of having a compost facility. So, education. So, that's about it for me. I do have a question. I can wait till council comments, but it's specifically on where we are with A-1 and who's talking and who's talking about some options. Would you rather do that now? Yeah, I can do it now. I have been brought into the conversation. Our commissioners are on board with a composting facility. Where it's going to be, from my perspective, or what little I know is that A-1 has the dollars to build it. There's different pieces of land that we can look at, but Harold brought up a great idea, which I'm going to run past Ashley Stiltsman and staff. A-1 doesn't have the facility to compost every type of compostable. So, possibly, instead of building a new one, could we partner with A-1 and expand their facility? So, I'm going to run that past then. There are several ideas that we're talking about. To my understanding, A-1 has nine million dollars plus that's accrued from the sustainability tax. And they can build whatever it is. In the interim, I just was curious whether or not municipalities or municipalities with county commissions had any conversation about what we could do together either to cover the cost of hauling 40 tons of stuff that they couldn't compost or that was contained or it was contained. It's going to go to the landfill. Exactly. And that is why... I'm sorry to interrupt. So, if it's going to end up in the landfill, it's going to get in the landfill whether it goes from my house or from A-1. And it just seems to be that unlearning that we're going to ask our residents to do right now when the time comes for them to relearn or to re-adapt that that is going to be a much steeper or it's going to be a laggy adoption. And just if we could if we can make a deal among the municipalities with our county commissioners to say to A-1, we'll cover the cost. We'll collaborate and the county has the money to haul that stuff away and keep sending even to stuff that you know they have to sort out. If it's going to end up in the landfill anyway let's continue to work on adoption. Are you talking about an interim? Yeah, an interim plan, right? Rather than taking steps backwards that's my concern. The cynics out there are going to laugh and point their fingers and the ones that were late adopters are going to go, I'm not going to do this again. It's just when you're at a state where we thought maybe we could get them the more people to come on with this. Yeah, and thanks for bringing that up because that was my second ask of Martin what your name is that. Also when we're learning about what composting facilities are you let's have the conversation about just what you brought up, different ideas together instead of having it be like where the nursery was, where it just exploded on us and nobody really knew what was going on. So I think education, open discussion makes more sense before we have any type of decision making. So I think as Charlie continues to research this and Bob Allen and Harold and Ashley Stoltzman and they're going to set up a meeting with her name is Lori Stain which is the Weld County Commissioner who is semi-interested but it's worth reaching out and I think Commissioner to Commissioner is a better idea than someone. She is, Lori is meeting with Hayward Oh she is. I think Bob sent that out to me and Bishop sent it. And I also suggested to the mayor and Tim would be happy about it because County Commissioners can reach out to the Weld County Commissioners and others and I think there's operational savings there because we're all having this issue. Everybody uses it. Everyone uses it, we're all in the same position. It's not like there's no money to pay to keep people out of the process. It still holds stuff away. It's going to have a great deal anyway. You buy some time to figure out how to help with that technology become stakeholders and whatever the options are. So it has not anyone already said that they have room to place a digester without tearing down their open blue road facility now so that they can deliver it over. I think that's that would be one of the first things we would want to know. I think they have the I think it's an economics issue. It's an economics. But if we built the digester it wouldn't be an economics issue. It would just be a space issue. That's kind of a suggestion I've made to the folks that have talked to me. I think there's a desire for Weld County to set only one my point is if you already have the site where the land use is determined at what point does it make sense to just try to invest it and be a partner in case you control over time you don't have to deal with the land use issues and you're augmenting their operation and that's where I've said that the council members are going to talk to me. That's where I think the County Commissioner really needs to engage you. I'm just saying the commissioners need to engage in this conversation and develop partnerships with Weld County and we're not sure where that's going to go. Then you made a good point but I'm here also when you were talking to me is that all of these cities and counties have already been they're used to go to the APR. They won't have to change the way they function if we just invest in A1 instead of re-routing those trucks to someplace else and trying to figure out if they have any Indianism or deal with that. The last time the county tried this so what could possibly go wrong? That's why I That's why we want to have conversations before they decide for us what's going to happen. We also made the recommendation to Bob and Charlie to go to the other group so when I worked in Texas there was a group called Texas Disposal Systems and they actually went as far west as Alpine almost to Laco, then in south of San Antonio they had this massive recycling facility and then they were able to compost and organic. They actually bridged the transportation gap by creating transfer stations. So if you're in Fort Collins or it may be that we have a transfer station let's say on the Dispo property in this waterfront it's in there for a short period of time it's trucked out and so they've actually cried the transportation by using these transfer stations so that not everyone is having to drive all the way out there and that can be an augmentation to the A1 side. Interesting. So part of the issue with going to A1 has always been the carbon footprint of power. But we're sharing 40% of the methane we produce for our garbage for me or the other way around we're using 40% for Eric 60% anyway. So we use fuel cell products to reduce the carbon footprint of going out there and that will probably have a whole lot from your permitting problems and the way it composts and the whole economy. All those are good discussions. So if that's it let's get started on the evidence. I said to everybody would you give the kind of the makeup so while you're logging in I haven't really made a report yet. Oh my god! I was my... Go for it! Yeah well my computer decided to restart itself so I had to wait for it to get back on anyway. Sissy can you give us yours? Yes. So I just had the Museum Advisory Board and the library help with me so far. And the Museum was just giving us updates. There's a lot of partnership between them and art and public places and so there is a new installation The Angel Queens in the Atrium so it's beautiful. I saw it yesterday when I was there. And then the mural at the spoke in the breezeway it's going to be a I guess you know this mural it'll have a QR code that you'll be able to scan and it'll cause something to happen I don't know a light display or some kind of display. So it was pretty neat. So I thought that was a fun thing to share. It's already up? Okay. And the other was really talking about expanding their camps or programs. They awarded 73 scholarships for their children's camps. So that was good. And then Alicity Volunteers so far they have 10 to help with the summer camps. The library we were they were asking a lot of questions around the survey and Commend John that was named escape and he was sitting right next to me for three hours our parks go Yes. They were on top of it and they answered a lot of really really good questions and a lot of information as well. One of the things that they're looking at and it sounds like it would have to create a code change but looking at their bylaws that they could do on their own but updating their bylaws and what are their goals and objectives as far as an advisory board and so I don't know if Jeff will come to you but what is that? Council has to do that. So Council via the ordinances creating the words established by their roles So as they look at their bylaws more and kind of have an idea this might be something that I'll bring back with a section to see where everybody's at with that I know that they were looking at depth in what the tax initiative would fund for the library with essentially that branch and capital but they were looking at just really wanting to delve in and having guaranteed that we will adequately fund the library to attain that preferred level of service and so there was a lot of discussion around that and what that was like and I think you're just wanting to make sure that there's a commitment from the city that we're prioritizing our I'd like to call it social infrastructure because it's not just the library but also the museum or parks so A lot of the comments on the survey were along those lines the first people did not understand that the sales tax was meant to be the operating expenses of the facility they didn't see to get that but I think it would be good before we decide what to refer to have presentations on how the size of the sales tax were determined because that would answer the library for its questions I wanted to share that piece with you all I know that they were interested some of the members were interested in coming to public invited to be heard to ask for that commitment to further fund and something that came to mind is I was concerned that the public would and I said you can do whatever whatever you want I'm not telling you no but also keep in mind that just from my own experience being on council these people convoluted the two ideas together I told them through the library that they were talking about one funding source and a separate funding source they might come over the two together and Jeff had also stated that as well so we might have people coming to speak on behalf of that or they might decide to wait but they do want to come forward but that was all I had so staff could be there during the I think one of the things that we will talk about is when you look at the organization of taxes there is a significant balance in that what we've seen where we have and we've seen it more so in the public safety fund is that when you have a sales tax decrease what it did is it pinches that fund and you can't so there's two pieces A, when you're dedicated in that funding source and you have to cut you can't balance that fund out the other side is is when it's dedicated and the more dedicated funds you have and you're trying to balance that and the remaining part of the general fund pinches that too which makes it harder to manage the budget shortfalls and so we can talk at 30,000 feet depending on what you say we'll have to bring back there are some unintended consequences when you say decrease in the sales tax revenue is not the rates yeah, yeah, the rates, yeah so let's just say you go into another LA and if it's dedicated and you're predicting operational expenses on that there's no way to cover it within a specific dedication to the dedicated pieces and you really can't cover it because you're also going to have fewer areas to balance it out in the broader general fund and so it starts pinching every home pretty hard and this may be a question for out there but what was the staff's expectation in terms of the design of the things that could go on the ballot with respect to that so I think we're working with some language but basically saying here's what we're going to try to do but in the event of a downturn you can balance the system so you do have more flexibility so it's a TPD but there are ways to deal with it we think so to say here's what we're going to do but in the event theoretically in the event of an economic downturn I forgot the language we had but you can cut the services that are there unlike the public safety fund where it can only be used for remote services you can't necessarily make that cut and so we were working you remember we were out there talking to you and I can't remember what we decided but I think there are ways to solve it but it's just not as simple as dedicate this funding because there will be a pinch it's not if there will be and there's sure you can minimize that so okay thanks so this discussion tonight is brought by Tim and Erin on so much so what are the what does the enforcement look like what does bringing a complaint look like and in what I sent out to you I just put down some talking points in my this was all kind of pastry probably right it's not my actual thought because I don't want my thoughts to be the one that decides the discussion but the one thing that I do want to keep in mind is that the difference between ethics, morals and decorum are very different morals are what you personally internally use for your conduct for your ethical ability ethics are external which means that there are specific things written down that with a committee, a group organization they're written down, they're explicit so that is what I think that we should be addressing what is the procedure for a complaint and once it comes or if it's decided that it comes back to council what so what so what do we do with that what is the enforcement so the things that I looked at what we have here in our city now is censure we can only censure we are a self-policing body and we have the ability to censure we do not have the ability to recall but according to Robert's rules of order if we have an outside board or a council or whatever you want to call it we can give them the authority to recall if that is what this group would desire to do so you know I put the issues from Denver from what our city charter says and I don't know if you read that do you want me to read it to you what our city charter says well our city yeah city charter says the council or a committee or whatever duly authorized by it shall have the power to investigate the official acts of any officer an officer being a council person or employee of the city and may compel the attendance and testimony of witnesses and the production of books and documents in other words whatever you can to make the case either or against the council has the right to do that but what Robert's order says basically from the way I interpret it is that they recommend that the council or whatever group is have an outside group look at a complaint or an offense so let me read it and see if that's how you interpret that Robert Jules's order says if members commit offenses the committee the procedure is to initiate action by introducing a main motion authorizing an investigating committee or authority the motion should not make charges but only present a problem that merits investigation if the motion is adopted the committee should discreetly conduct a thorough investigation including a conference with the accused these are the recommendations that I found to reinforce what you can consider and then there are some sanctions from some of the other cities so my question is you said that this committee that Jules's order refers to has a providence that it exists somehow but the piece that you read didn't say anything about that I couldn't tell whether the committee was formed on the spot it doesn't say that it doesn't say either way no that's not what I meant that's why I read it so I just I have a question I'm sorry I was just trying to kind of thinking out loud last time we had a recall that this city was probably the late 80s early 90s basilar was directing staff outside of the city manager to do things but it was the community members that found the defensive and then brought recall against him and that was the only successful recall that I've ever heard of in the city's history that has happened when somebody does something like in Boulder Valley we're all being trained on because of the stuff that's happened at a couple of our high schools in turn we've had this everybody's required to go through an online training where they have to document their testing on knowledge of it videos and everything some of that stuff is what I kind of feel is maybe this sort of thing that gets a person's ethically you know in trouble because they and I suppose there's this decorum cited with two that is there but the issue that I see is that wouldn't some of those things be headed off if we first made sure that we had something like this in place and we got plenty of examples from St. Graham or Boulder Valley that are now aware of it and have the resources that they can provide us that some third party has vetted and created so it's not like the district itself is creating it so it probably is something that you can literally buy to advise your staff on ethical behavior or in behavior and stuff like that which would be some of the things that maybe somebody would get in trouble with and would be on this it's besides the idea of talking to accidentally return all or some sort of thing like that when people aren't really trying to create problems when I served before we were at CML and the council directed the mayor to vote on some legislation that CML wanted our input on that then we felt we had public support on and the mayor went and voted completely and totally against what we had recommended and I caught him on it probably that would have been an issue you know I'm a little confused about what you're saying are you saying that we should adopt some of what somebody already has put in place I think we should strengthen our HR criteria even for council members to have some sort of training merely just to make sure that they are aware of it that would be the first thing which would just be a good housekeeping thing that would protect Harold and everybody else in the system and all the employees and I think that some of the issues that would come out of the ethics committee out of the ethics commission how often would we use it that's my biggest worry that how often would we use it I understand when we have our police standards board that use it quite often I'm certain on that but that's also a personnel matter and so we had to go in and look at the personnel file and read over it and read over the circumstances of the situation and determine as a group afterwards what was that but that probably happens more often in that setting Sean are you saying that you don't think we should do this I'm not certain that we should yes I'm not certain that we should I'm just concerned how would it be weaponized later by some future council or mayor in a way that would really throw the city in turmoil that's that's a good point so Shakita do you think that this process is worth going through do you think that we should have a process for complaints I think we still as as a council we should discuss the purpose make sure we have a clear understanding of what is the purpose of the committee I think that is number one making sure that we have just a couple of notes making sure that we understand what the purpose of having it for getting in trouble making sure that no matter what I bring to you on the training we all should make sure there should be training with new people like even myself and at the same time understanding what the roles are so I think that's very important I'm not I think that that's first and foremost and how does that overlap with the Robert's rules of order too yeah I think we just need to define what the purpose of this committee the ethics committee and that we all should if we decide to do it we need to make sure we all agree and then also making sure that just because someone does something wrong doesn't mean they don't get a second chance because we are human beings you know I just want to make sure it's not to like point fingers at people and just like okay how do we train how do we make this better right for the next time in the next council council okay so I think first we need to for me personally I think we need to make sure we understand the exact purpose of this ethics committee Erin so I think I spoke to this when we talked about having this meeting that I think being a self-policing body is not particularly useful especially with century being the heaviest repercussion that we can go out as a self-policing body so I think I think it is worth exploring whether it's an ethics committee or just having somebody as if I swim a herald about former federal agents or former detectives or hearings officers having that kind of person instead of a committee it's just a person who's completely non-biased and also has investigative background of some sort so I think that's another option besides a committed person I think that having things sent back to the city council can just fall right back into possible politicization of factions on council to be if there's not the consequence of hearing's officer that non-biased third party is having the ability to say have a recall of say I don't think anybody on this council is like that but if we got George Santos and some completely makes up their background and gets elected to city council and it's just not not an outstanding individual that there's some sort of function to deal with outside of because you'll hear it all the time from the public is that even if they wanted to many of them do realize how expensive it is to get somebody recalled and knowing that that might not even work in the first place and so I think a lot of the public is not interested in trying to recall people because of how expensive and how tedious that process is you know I'll accept it in the paper this morning and you'll get us Jesse we all be recalled for doing something that's not even our power to do so so I do think we got to be clear on if we're going to do this on the so what question and I did read what you said you know I have that provokes other questions from me about where does the authority start and you know to provide somebody for those so I honestly I'm agnostic on the need or value of having a committee if it were just Tim Waters and I felt like you know it was up to me I would agree on the protocol would be to bring in a trial this right now which are I guess retired former folks who said who do this for a living they conduct investigations and make recommendations based on the law or whatever standards we have just to simplify a process I think any of us if it's not clear now that we ought to clarify rules and procedures that if somebody believes there's been a breach there is a protocol that we call this so for me I've carried around this is a version of this slide it's dated June 10th 2015 I've been carrying around for a long time I went at over one of these days you know maybe this would be useful but it's off the CML website you've talked about trade this is their trade or it was then it's probably been updated pretty good if you look at this slide that kind of take you through the differences between what's an ethical breach versus a legal or moral debits or variation or whatever and the questions to ask how to think about holding yourself accountable seems to me that in terms of a process even before we get to a protocol it would be worth bringing in CML or something like that I mean this one is designed for city council members and then see what kind of conclusions we might reach about how much farther to go whether to think about agreeing on a protocol that would be triggered if there's a complaint and then an industry and trial judge Sean I wasn't the new big reference to keeping Harold clear of something I wasn't certain what you're thinking about I was just saying that in the administrator when they have an employee do something or a member of the council do something or whatever or the leadership team it has said like it or not there's a reflection on the top person so you know I want us to be proactive and that's why I think every year just like the school district every employee even city council members even though they've seen it it's that they know there's certain things that of course you're going to get you've been told you signed off on it you said you took the student training the idea of a standing committee is like I don't know how often would a standing committee be utilized in my experience not very often if ever and then if not that then the alternative is an administrative trial judge but at the end of the day I do think the so what is pretty limited but it would be good to get a definitive answer to the question what are the limits to an administrative trial judge or some board that would be I'd be curious to know what board would be authorized to recall an elected official or is it to initiate a recall process and then if there's somebody has an authority to find it's like really we don't find criminals these days no but those are just things that other cities are doing but those are questions that we would I'd want to make certain we could answer before we got too far down the line with serious considerations and the recall thing you know I talked to Eugene the Charter says we can censure if we decide to counsel a recall I do not want to do that but it would have to probably go to a vote to amend the Charter and that's a heavy burden yeah so just to get the committee thing sort of out of the way I really like Aaron's idea of having it's like hiring an outside counsel hiring an outside investigator so that's something that I think we could put a pin in then I read the long CML CML ethics discussion that Eugene sent out which I thought was brilliant and I had to contrast that with the discussion we got when we were new we invested on counsel which was financial conflicts well we know we're not going to do that and the real temptation is violating the chain of command and that's a real I think a danger for us because we are so sensible and so open about access to staff hey Harold I need to do this I need to understand more about this we'll talk to Joanie or talk to whoever you know well all it would take would be for somebody to misconstru or the people got into a difference of opinion or whatever to have it blow up in that way so you know I always say I know I can't tell you what to do but here's my opinion or here's my question but that's always mean that the staff person doesn't get pressured and I really was not until we got into this aware of what big deal that can be so I agree with Sean that the first thing we should do is get everybody up to speed on you know there's probably four or five different types of ethical approaches right so so getting into a financial conflict of interest is the biggest worst and probably the chain of agreement thing is the second biggest and if you know awareness maybe a little training on the part of the staff to you know give them a harp of lark's horn that they can too when they say we're crossing the line right seriously I'm not seriously seriously but but I think if we had you know draw the lines and make everybody aware of what they are and then live with that knowledge for three or four months and then have a discussion about what the resources ought to be with all of our raised awareness because it's five minutes till and so we're not going to settle it tonight we're not settling anything this is easy yeah I do agree that we should have an outside person to review the case if I think it pulls it away from that for this situation you know just targeting someone or going after them and really reading out what is a stimulus and what is an actual what makes an actual case the other thing and you I agree with Chan on this one is the training piece even if it's a little virtual you know you're the most extreme violations to your art you know you might get a hand slapped to you know some of the minor but be aware of you know just a really quick and it should be something I agree that you can do it so especially if it's a virtual you know watch the video answer questions but yeah so I agree that in order for us to move forward you know I think making sure that everybody understands what are these violations what are you know and we're all in the same the same understanding and that new people coming in understand where it's going so my my thing is that when someone whether it's a council person or an outside person accuses a council person of something we can say you need to write a written documentation and I thought that would cause brainstem to say in fact if you put it in writing and take it to this person or this board and they then will let the accused person doesn't necessarily ever know they're being accused of anything and that I think is wrong and they should be able to respond to the accusation and that's why I like the colorado screens what they're getting this is what you've been accused of maybe two days to respond whatever and then that maybe it is a conversation that they both sit down and have it it never rises to the you know rises to the top of having a blow up but if the whether it is a judge or whoever or two or three people I don't care that's what we have to decide then they can tell us this is frivolous based upon this this rises that we need to investigate this based upon what your code of ethics is based upon what the law says and so we are going to have an investigation I think having a counsel person accuse another counsel person without any way to have a discussion from the accused is wrong it is just wrong and then to have two or three counsel people decide what happens we can't sell police that way because there are things that come into it trying to control a vote you want them off the counsel is it your moral ideal of what should happen that is influencing that or is it actually legal following your code of ethics and I don't think that staff should be involved in policing counsel they need to say you need to take this back over to the to the board right refer it to the board we do not solve counsel problems and then if it comes back to us that's where the what what so what comes in for me is that then if it's referred back to us then so what what does counsel do with it do we censure them publicly or privately do we keep them off the boards you can no longer be a liaison for the board those are the things that we need to decide but I really think we need a procedure for complaints and who does that go to so that's what I think we need to think about are we going to go are we going to drop this whole discussion so we can't decide now we should probably go have a counseling yeah