 So yeah, thanks, modern day debates for having me back and thanks Amy and Alex for being here. So I think all of us are showing up here because we care about the well being of children and we want as medicine provides the best possible outcomes for the children who are the subject of today's debate. An argument against puberty blockers is an argument against modern medicine and an argument that puts the well being a far more children at risk than it saves. So I want to start with a hypothetical to contextualize what's going on here. Imagine that you are a parent and you have a child. That child is suffering and you bring them to a professional in an area and the area of concern to see what can be done. The professional suggests a treatment with no more risks than any other aspect of modern medicine, a treatment that is by and large reversible. And then the state steps in and says no actually, despite the fact that the science is saying this is safe and provides good outcomes. Despite the fact this diagnosis was made by a professional with your child's best interests in mind, we have decided to stop this form of treatment altogether. Whether your child was getting hormone blockers or ADHD meds or any other kind of medication, any reasonable parent would be outraged that the state was interfering with the well being of their child against the best medical science. Now I'm hoping to dispel some common misconceptions before diving into the data on this topic. Hopefully my interlocutor is here in good faith and isn't trying to bring up hyperbolic straw men of what trans activists are advocating for. So firstly, when we're talking about access of hormone blockers for trans minors, it's important to know that what's not happening here is experimentation. Lupron or luprolide, the most commonly used hormone blocker is a drug that has been used for many decades to treat various forms of cancer relating to sex characteristics, as well as a drug to prevent precocious puberty and cisgender minors. Notice we aren't here to debate access to this medicine for cis people or banning it generally. We're debating whether or not trans kids should have access to this medicine. In trans minors, providers typically aim to start lupron around tanner stage 2 or 3 of puberty for best results. However, the average age at which providers are giving this medicine is closer to 13 and this is considered to be a reversible treatment. While the medical interventions can't take place as young as age 9, that sort of situation is incredibly rare and a diagnosis only to be made by a professional with the consent of a parent. More likely, interventions at that age would be allowing the child to explore their gender expression through clothes, hair, and toys. However, like with all medicine, there are possible side effects that exist which are well known and how to mitigate those side effects are also well known. The most significant of these is bone mineral density. This appears only to present a significant issue after two years of use after which transferring to completely or concurrently using cross-exhormones or the cessation of use for stores bone mineral density to healthy levels and peak bone health. Real quick, we're at bone density just to be there. We're still not live, Amy. It definitely looks live. Oh. Yeah, it's definitely live. Why is it not working? I'm just going to... Sorry, is it a different link? Sorry, I can't find it. I can't watch it. I'm trying to watch the debate. Okay, sorry, go ahead. It's not working on my end. We can't hear you either, Amy. We can't hear you. Can you guys hear me now? Yes. It looks like it's going live. Alex is wrong. James just put it in the chat. You're wrong and we're live. Okay. I don't know why I can't see it. Right, so I'm going to say that point. I would just make again this only appears to present a significant issue after two years of use. That's the issue with bone mineral density after which transferring completely to or concurrently using cross-exhormones or the cessation of use if they decide that they don't want to go on with hormone replacement therapy restores bone mineral density to healthy levels and peak bone mass appears to be normal. Hormone blockers are very rarely have any impact on fertility yet even if they did, we know that that would be a dishonest approach to critique that because countless things impact fertility. And I'm assuming that Alex wouldn't debate whether or not children with cancer should have access to chemo because of a potential risk to infertility. When it comes to fears of misdiagnosis, that is a fear that the child will one day feel as though they were mistaken and that pubertal suppression wasn't right for them. The evidence seems to suggest that this is an extremely unlikely outcome. In a 2015 survey of 27,000 transgender people from across the US, 8% reported that they had a detransition at some point in their life. Of that 8%, 60% reported that at the time of the survey they were currently living as a gender other than the one assigned at birth suggesting they retransitioned. The reasons were many but almost universally had to do with outside pressures be it a spouse, their family, their place of work or outright harassment. The representative number of the total sample that reported transitioning because it wasn't right for them was 0.4% of that 27,000. If we are being overly charitable here, there's another study that reports a 2.2% regret rate. But if we're going to start banning access to healthcare over less than 3% regret rate, you're going to abolish modern medicine as we know it. Just to drive this home, I hear some commonplace medical procedures with a higher regret rates than that. Of men who received a robotic prostatectomy due to prostate cancer, reportedly that has a regret rate of 19%. And that's a hell of a lot less reversible than puberty blockers. Patient satisfaction with knee replacement surgeries ranges from as low as 75% to 92% in the academic literature. The expectation that you can employ medicine without some bad outcomes is just unrealistic. Now, don't mistake my use of statistics as a dismissal for the pain that those individuals who do regret might experience. There aren't enough resources out there to help those who genuinely regret transition. But my issue is with the notion that we should ban a specific form of healthcare from all minors over the possibility that they could regret. By banning access to this care over the chance that 0.4% will regret, you're creating a scenario where 99.6% of the rest of this population will have significantly worse outcomes. It's laughably twisted that there is so much empathy for this small minority of kids who might potentially regret this 0.4%. The idea that they could go through the wrong puberty, there's so much empathy for that. But when it comes to trans kids, we're going to be forced to go through the wrong puberty because they're denied access to medicine. There's no empathy for those kids, and that is the vast, vast majority of those kids. Medicine is all about the odds. There's never going to be a way to guarantee that a procedure will have a 0% regret rate. But thankfully, due to statistical analysis and ever improving diagnostic technologies, we have people living longer, healthier lives than ever before. Doctors go to years of school and take insanely difficult tests and are gradually given more and more permissions in the field to ensure that we are giving patients the best care possible. Seeing as the evidence suggests this treatment is valid and a safe way to prepare kids for the possibility of transition, the only critique my interlocutor could be making is that he is more of an expert than the entirety of the medical community, or that he takes an issue with modern medicine as a whole. If you want to object to children accessing the interventions with the best statistical outcomes, that's your prerogative. I'm not telling you what to do, but let's not sit here and pretend that you are protecting children or following the science. Again, denying trans people access to this healthier is an outright rejection of the best medical science. It's an act that causes demonstrable harm to significantly more individuals than I could ever hope to be saving. So I hope, like I said at the beginning, that Alex, the viewers, Amy, and Bonner Day debates are here to fight for the best outcomes for children. Thank you. Wow, that was beautiful. Is that my turn to go? Thank you so very much, Arden. And for those of you listening, if it's your first time here, consider hitting that subscribe button. We may enjoy juicy debates coming up. In fact, Wednesday, Ched, Lodger, and Rob, debating whether conservatives, persecutors, leftists for socialist media, and you don't want to miss it. And with that, we're going to be handing it over to you, Alex, for your opening statement. I just want to say, man, excuse me, that was awesome. Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, that was a very passionate speech, Arden. I really blew my socks off and I'm not saying that facetiously. I can tell that you're passionate about this. And so I don't want to sound insensitive to what you're saying. I want to be very, very, very sensitive because I understand that trans people should have the right to transition. I'm not against the ability or wanting people to transition. What I'm against is giving children irreversible puberty blockers. And I know that multiple times you said reversible, reversible, but there's actually data and studies, you know, I think it's out of Boston Children's Hospital. That says that it's not reversible and that there's actually people that transitioned at nine years old and when they took the puberty blockers at 17, they still had the penis of a nine-year-old. So I'm just saying, if I had a penis of a nine-year-old, that would make me severely depressed. That would be irreversible because there's not a pill that you can just make your penis grow to the size of a 17-year-old. So I just do think when you said it's irreversible, that's incorrect. But I think a lot of the stuff you did say is correct. So one of the things I want to touch on for me and my research that I've done is, and I've done a little bit of gender studies. I said it in college, but basically I'd like to break down gender into five sexes. All right. You have male and female, and then you have intersex. I mean, somebody's born with genitals that are either, you know, mutated, maybe born with a penis and a vagina. And then you have male that transitions to female, and then you have female that transitions to male, just for the basis of breaking it down. So I'm all for that. I think everybody should have the right to transition, 100%. But my problem, once again, is with the age of consent. So you said in your thing that it's not experimental. Of course, the lupin medicine has been used in cancer patients for prostate because what it happens is, is if it retards the ability to create testosterone that it actually has been shown to help some sort of cancers in the genitals. But when you say that that is not an experimental application for the transition of children is absolutely incorrect. That is still experimental, and it is not FDA approved for the transition of children. That is a fact that it is not FDA approved to use that to transition children. Now it is FDA approved to use it for cancer treatment. So I just want to make sure to, you know, get that out there. But like I said, it's the reversibility of the issue. We live in the day and age where children aren't even allowed to vote until they're 18 years old. You know, they're not even allowed to get a tattoo. And let's say a tattoo, you can get that. That's reversible. Like for me, the big kick in the rear end is if it was reversible, then maybe, you know, I would maybe give it some sort of leeway. But when you think about the mastectomy and you cut off a woman's breast, you cut off a child's breast, and then you say that you can replace them. You don't replace them with the same organ that you cut off. So it's not the same. And you're quoting a lot of stats. Now, there's actually a recent study done, I believe it was on ABC or I forget which outlet, but there is a much higher number of people that actually regretted their transition. Now, I get it. I'm not saying that people, I don't want, like I said, I want to say this and start. I don't think people should not be able to transition. If you want to transition to whatever sex that you want, go ahead. As a matter of fact, I don't care the military and the soldiers, we can pay for it. My problem is, and I don't even really want to sound like I want to protect the children. I just don't believe that it is irreversible. So when I see the social agenda and the social stigma and then when the stats that I have read, it's actually an alarming amount of homeless children, people without parents that are the ones that are getting the surgery and also a large amount of autistic children. So when you have people that are autistic, you can look this up, I can quote this. A lot of people that are autistic that are getting the surgery, they don't have the capacity to make a decision and they don't realize the severity of cutting off their genitals. And for me, this is another thing where I don't want to sound insensitive to children whatsoever. But when you get a child at nine years old and you put them on puberty blockers and then you give them gender reassignment surgery, that child is never able to fully have an orgasm. So they will never experience what an orgasm is like for their sex. Now you can say, oh, with their new genitals, they might be able to experience an orgasm. There's doctors that'll argue that both ways. Now, I don't know. I haven't had my genitals cut off. I haven't had my penis turned into a vagina. But I can just tell you naturally that I do know how to orgasm and that that's one of my most favorite things to do is to orgasm. To lose that ability, that would a big spark of my life would suck. And so I just don't want a child to lose that ability without knowing the consequences of their actions because there's a lot of reasons why we put age limitations on things. So the idea that I don't want puberty blockers to exist would be absurd. I understand that there are applications that they are approved to be used for, like in the instance of lowering testosterone and people that have cancer of the genitals or but that doesn't mean that I believe that it should be used experimentally on children that decide that they're more feminine than men. And I want to go back to the stats too. Now, I know your stats. I think you said it was 99.04. What was it? It was something like 99% of the people don't regret the after getting surgery. I think that number is grossly incorrect because when you actually look at the rate of people after they have the gender reassignment surgery and the amount of suicide, the amount of drug use and the amount of mental health issues, it's a huge correlation with the gender dysphoria syndrome that causes them to cut off the syndrome, cut off their genitals. So you could argue that it is a mental disease, not a physical disease. And once again, I'll give you the five sexes. I won't even limit it to two sexes because I want to be totally advantageous for everybody to be able to feel their true self. But what I'm saying is when you're making permanent decisions that are going to last a lifetime to children that don't have the brain capability, their brains are not done growing. And when you put them on puberty blockers, it creates a domino effect. It creates there. What it does is it creates, they say, a stage of arrested development at the age that the child starts taking the puberty blockers. Their emotional health supposedly gets stuck at that age. Now, obviously, there's different doctors that say different things about this. But I tend to believe that's not natural for children to take hormone medicine. And I just believe in the more natural thing that once a kid is 18 or maybe 17, if that's in their state, if they get emancipated at that age, if they want to do that, sure, go ahead. But to give it to a nine-year-old, to give it to a teenager, even anything under a teenager is absolutely absurd. And it's just not right. And it's not fair to the child because they don't realize what they're doing. You wouldn't give that eight-year-old keys to a semi-truck and say, hey, go drive it down the street. You wouldn't do that because that's dangerous. And so what I'm saying is we do have to have a personal freedom. I'm all for freedoms and personal freedoms and being able to decide your gender. Go ahead for a child to make a decision that you said is reversible when all the studies and facts that I've seen have showed that it's not reversible and that if you do stop the growth of your penis at nine years old and then you decide to change your mind at 17, your penis is going to be that same size. And ending the ability for a person to ever have the ability to orgasm naturally with a biological sex for me is one of the biggest travesties. So that is what you do when you put a child on the puberty blockers before they're able to have a natural orgasm. They never got to test what it was like. They never got to feel that sexual feeling. So for me, I'm coming at it from the sexual health part, is that once you decide to take the puberty blockers, it is irreversible. And then once you are on that train, it just creates a mental health disaster that it's hard to come back from because, like I said, I believe the puberty blockers are irreversible. That's my time. Thank you so very much, Alex. And once again, for those of you listening, if it's your first time here, consider hitting that subscribe button as we have many more juicy debates coming up. In fact, this Wednesday, Chud Logic and Rob are debating whether conservatives are persecuted more than leftists on social media and you don't want to miss it. All right, we're going to jump into the open dialogue and I remind you folks that our guests are linked at the descriptions if you'd like to hear more of what they're talking about as always, we appreciate both of you being with us and the floor is all yours. I can't hear you, Arndt. I think you're muted. That's my bad. You good now? Good? Oh, yes, yes. Awesome. So I have so many things I want to say after your opening statement. I find, oh God, I don't even know where to begin. Somewhere begin somewhere. Sure. We've got plenty of time. So I think you're a little bit confused at the kind of the differences between transition and getting maybe like genital surgery and as well as you were making claims about how like if somebody takes these hormone blockers that it is like a domino effect that impacts their quality of like you said, the mental health disaster I think was what you said. If they decided, you know, what happens is they change their mind. They take these hormones like my example is of a nine-year-old man and I've read and I saw this guy's perfect example. I can pull up the YouTube video, but at nine years old he decided to take puberty blockers and at 17 he changed his mind and he regretted it because he still had the penis of a nine-year-old so that he was really depressed. So what I'm saying is it can cause, because you say it's not reversible, something you can do to your body at nine years old that makes your penis not grow and then you decide to change, it can have mental health effects is what I was trying to say. So I would love to see that because I'm almost willing to guarantee based on the medical literature that I've seen and I'm pulling from a source that a med student friend of mine has linked me for their standards of care that they use. I can almost guarantee that in that case, if this person, you said they detransitioned at 17 was when they realized it was mistake. At that point they almost certainly would not have been on hormone blockers. Any endocrinologist? Well, they started at nine. They started hormone blockers at nine and that's why their penis stops growing at nine years old. I don't know how long they took hormone blockers. I agree. So they might have started hormone blockers at nine but no endocrinologist worth their skin would allow somebody to stay on hormone blockers alone from nine years old to whatever age. Most likely what would have caused actual penile antisticular atrophy would have been them going on to cross-sex hormones, estrogen and androgen blockers probably around a year to two years after the initial treatment. That would happen and don't get me wrong. That is horrible that that happens and that this person regrets it and that they feel so destroyed about that. I think that's a travesty and I wish there were more resources for those people. I hope that as medicine develops we have more things we can do to address scenarios like this. But again, the issue you're talking about is so do you admit that it's not reversible though? So you admit that it's not reversible? No, because you're confused about which treatments are reversible and which aren't. If you take puberty blockers and you don't have a natural puberty that is not, you can't just turn the puberty back on, Arden. Yes you can. Arden, that is not how it works. That's not how time works. You have it all in. Well, what about all the time you missed when you didn't have the puberty on? All those times you could have grown? Sure. The time missed, that sucks and that's why- So on an equal, so if you lived the same amount of time frame and you turned it, you turned on your puberty and you didn't turn on your puberty you wouldn't be the same person. Do you understand that on the same time span? So it does have an irreversible damage. No matter what, no matter what if you take a puberty, what I'm saying is you're trying to say that you can turn it off and on. That's absurd, that's not true. You're telling me that you can take puberty blockers. I'm not telling you that you can go back in time. I'm not telling you you can go back in time. What I'm telling you is that I suggest at least six months to a year following the cessation of use of a puberty blocker, not hormones, not HRT, not estrogen, hormone blockers, loop relied. If you quit using those that you say, oh no, actually I don't want to transition so you just stop taking the hormone blockers and that's all you've done. Six months following that, six months to a year, menstruation and normal puberty hormone levels resume and this puberty resumes to wherever it left off. I mean, I think it's kind of disingenuous to say that it wouldn't have any effect or that it's the same as it would have been if you didn't take the puberty blockers is pretty absurd, but okay. I'm not saying there's nothing happened. Obviously this person is going to have to wrestle with psychologically like, why did I think I was trans? What does that mean about me? Is there something deeper that I have to explore? Sure, there's something that's going to happen there, has nothing medically happened to that and that's why I've said repeatedly there need to be more resources available for these people so that if anything else medically results from that there is resources and more importantly than the medicine because it's almost invariably not going to be an issue psychologically there need to be resources for these people. I agree. I think the mental health aspect is a big part of it that we're ever looking. So what age do you think children should be able to decide to take puberty blockers? I don't know if you said that in your opening statement. Yeah, I think that's a decision that they should come to between them, their parent and their doctor based on their point of development. So most of the time like most doctors if they know that a child is trans at a very very young age they would want to start puberty blockers around 10 or stage 2 of puberty which can be as early as 9 for people assigned female at birth and can be 11 for people assigned male at birth but no doctor would leave them on for more than 2 years because that's where significant side effects start to show up at that point they would be given the option to either stop the use all together or to be put on to cross-sex hormones. You seem to have a lot of faith in these good doctors. I just think that it's opposite. I think people are able to find doctors that are able to put them on these drugs for any price of money. Well that's because the research and the medicine seems to suggest that puberty blockers are not a harmful drug. So there's really no significant risk. To be fair, Arden, there is also lots of research that disagrees with what you say. I know that you think Please give me an example because we can pull it up. I mean I research so much and I can guarantee you Well there is research that says that the damage is not irreversible. I guarantee you that there's research that says that There's always a risk of irreversible things That's what I'm saying. So you're telling me you're going to let a nine-year-old child make a decision for something that's irreversible Doesn't that seem a little bit dangerous? It's probably going to have irreversible changes. I don't fucking care. No, it's with any medicine with any medicine there's a potential for significant side effects to happen that could permanently impact somebody's life. Yeah, but to compare puberty blockers to aspirin We don't just tell kids that they can't have access to medicine because there's a risk for something to happen That's absurd. That's not how medicine works Arden, but this isn't normal medicine This is medicine that stops your This is normal medicine Medicine that stops your normal maturation as a human. I don't think it's normal medicine I think naturally as humans we're supposed to grow like a plant. So I think if you sprayed something on a plant they made the plant grow I'm serious. Let's just say a plant It's natural for the natural maturation of a human being is not to be stunted. That's seems unhealthy. It'd be like if I sprayed something on a plant to make it grow slower that would be considered unhealthy or inorganic. I mean at some point Have you ever heard of a bonsai tree? What I'm saying is It's not natural to have a Tylenol in my head when I have a headache Yeah, but you're comparing puberty blockers to Tylenol is very dangerous in my opinion because they're very different and they have very different effects Obviously they're different. Obviously they have different effects I'm not saying they're similar, but I'm saying that all medicine comes with side effects and all medicine is unnatural Yeah, but a side effect that makes your penis stop growing at 9 years old is pretty significant and some medicine that will make it limited that you could never have an orgasm the rest of your life is not the same as a Tylenol. I don't know where you got this information about orgasm but I can tell you that even following general surgery the research suggests that orgasm is perfectly like most of the vast vast majority of the time is attainable. Some patients agree. I disagree You can disagree with the research but that's fine I mean that's just a baseless claim Some patients are even reporting more It's a baseless claim to say that you can cut off my penis and make me have a vagina and I would have a better orgasm than I did with my penis You're telling me that's a baseless claim The research suggests other way out Arden, Arden, I get it I get it and I'm on your side on all this I want to be on your side I am, I am but to think that I can cut off my penis and I'm going to actually have a better orgasm You think I'm trying to get you to cut off your penis No I'm not I will You know what, I don't hardly use it If I cut it off I wouldn't even miss it I'm just saying, listen I don't think my orgasm would be the same if I cut off my penis and turn into a vagina I think that's not baseless You said that's baseless, I don't think that's baseless That's a different claim Saying your orgasm would be different Your orgasm is going to be different It's coming from a completely different Neo-vagina versus a penis That doesn't mean it's not going to happen That doesn't mean you're like, removing So I never got to have my natural orgasm I know but my natural orgasm That's very important to me Okay but you're a cisgender man What if you prefer, no you just said it What if you prefer, so when you put a child on puberty blockers at an age where they never get to have their natural orgasm They never had to preference because they never got to choose That's the problem with my puberty blockers You can't choose your sexual preference This is a bad argument and I'll tell you why Do you think when lesbians come out If they're a gold star lesbian Never fucked a man in their life Do you think that they're like, oh gosh Well I never tried a man No, they never met me They would regret that they never had sex with me But that's different Well most lesbians I would make every excuse for her Well Ellen DeGeneres wrote me a letter But I don't want to talk about Ellen right now But on a serious note though The orgasm thing The sexual health is a big deal Because a lot of times You kind of don't feel like a man Till you kind of bust your load in a weird way And I'd imagine that's the same for a woman I don't know that But you almost don't feel like a woman until you probably Pop your cherry type situation So when you're taking medicine That makes it so these natural maturation These things that are so great I remember losing my virginity like it was yesterday Of my life Mary Williams We were all kinds of crazy stuff What I'm saying is If I didn't get to have that experience I would be suicidal and depressed And I don't want other children to have that I don't want them to miss out on their experience With Mary Williams and getting to 69 When their dad was out of town For being so gung ho about sexual health I think it's a little weird That you're saying someone is going to be suicidal If they don't come by the time they're like 16 Dude I'm a sex worker, I'm right there with you I'm all about sexual health I want people to be Not ashamed of their sexuality And what they like and what makes them feel good That's awesome, totally there for you But my issue is with the claim That this is going to impact Orgasm and besides this is totally Well how are your orgasms No but how are your orgasms before and after Transitioning Orden? I'm not going to talk about my orgasms with you But that is totally irrelevant The topic of whether or not No it is relevant That is so relevant because if you take the Listen why it's relevant Because if you take the hormone blockers at an early age At 9 years old, so you're a boy And you transition to a female So you never jack off, you never come And then you take the hormone blockers And then at 17, 18 you decide to have Cut your penis off and turn it into a vagina You never naturally jacked off Or had a A Jackulation as a male, you wouldn't know what it's like So this is the puberty blockers stop you And there are kids that have fallen Victim of this that have never got to have A natural orgasm, that's a fact That you cannot argue that There's a fact that there's kids that got On puberty blockers at an early age And never had a natural orgasm I don't need any data to support the claim That you're making right now and I still don't see How it's relevant at all because it has Because the puberty blockers This is not about your potential The orgasm after you've had genital surgery Is not related to whether Or not hormone blockers are a Risk for minors Hormone blockers What do you mean? It's a domino effect Can you have Can you have Yes, that's true But do you have to say Hormone blockers before gender reassignment surgery I'm not interested in discussing this stuff with you Yes, you do It's a domino effect That's what I'm saying So a kid has to take it before So it is permanent I took hormone blockers and I still jacked off And I still came and it was fine Because you know what, your information Is bullshit Well you're lucky enough That you still were able to jack off There are people that Aren't so lucky as you to jack off So much and they didn't get to have a natural orgasm There's risks with every single medicine There's so many medicines Where impotence and infertility is a risk That's not an uncommon thing Even just What do you call it? A birth control Birth control has an impact Potentially That doesn't mean people shouldn't take it That's a terrible argument People should take birth control If they feel like that with their doctor Decide that that's the best thing for them But are there risks? Yes, there are risks with literally everything in medicine The question with medicine Is a cost-benefit analysis Does the potential risk outweigh The potential gain And with hormone blockers it is overwhelmingly Clear that the potential gain Far out exceeds the potential risks I would disagree, I think the risk Are a way No I do, I have tons of evidence There's as much evidence for me On the internet as for you I promise you that I worry about it with a little penis And that's your evidence I feel bad for his little penis It doesn't sound like it Because you want a bunch of other people To have little penises and stuff with little penises Because you do know people change their mind And that's the thing is you cannot be Engineering that See that's not, that number is incorrect I disagree with you on that number And we can file that That's Trump would say it's fake news I don't even like Trump, I'm just saying that's fake news You can disagree with the science You know personally I'm just saying Listen, I just know people I know a person at a spin studio That was a female That transitioned to a male and then went back to female So I know one person that transitioned and went back to female So in my life I'm just saying I personally know somebody So it's You might personally know somebody, guess what So that proves your stat wrong 99.02% I'm just saying Your stat's incorrect That does not just prove my You could have 104 of those people And it would still fit perfectly With what the research suggested Do you know how math works? 0.4% Of 27,000 that were sampled That doesn't even mean that's all transgender Americans Those are just the ones that are sampled That is not true A lot of more people regret the gender Surgery than you We can pull up studies I'm just saying I don't want to do a share screen I don't want to do a share screen the whole time But on twitter I will send you the video I saw I was just You make a video saying I was wrong And I admit it I'm not a liar I'm not the one being disingenuous You're the one being disingenuous I'm not the one being disingenuous You're the one being disingenuous I'm trying What do you mean I have bullshit What are you talking about You're telling me I have bullshit When you're debating puberty blockers Kids taking puberty blockers Their penises stop growing When they decide they want to have their penis back They don't get to have it back So I don't think these kids No I'm obsessed with protecting kids Before their penis is growing normal sizes If you care about protecting kids You're going to care about the data I don't even care about protecting kids What I'm saying is you are these kids Can you say that again I don't care about protecting kids I'm not here to protect kids I'm not here to protect kids I'm here to do what's right And it's not right to put children To make decisions You don't let them drive cars Or stuff than puberty blockers And I believe those rules should apply to them So listen it's not about the children I'm not here to debate I'm not here in honor of the children I'm not virtue signaling for children What I'm trying to do is I'm trying to help A society because What the problem is Yes it is These people are being manipulated by social media Young people are being manipulated by social media Listen Arden It's a fact The kids are being manipulated And they're being subliminally programmed To make these decisions 100% You can look at the stats The amount of kids that That's a fact Arden Listen let me just say this Go ahead I'll tell you You actually cared about supporting kids You would follow the evidence where it leads The evidence overwhelmingly points to Very few people regret transition Very few people regret taking puberty blockers Puberty blockers have Almost no significant side effects And are largely Reversible That's false Arden You cannot keep saying that Everybody in the chat Do one ounce of research And you can see it is not I don't care what fake research talking about Puberty blockers are not reversible But it's not reversible Arden I care about science Arden you're the one saying it's reversible When it's not When you take puberty blockers It is not reversible Just because a girl can have her period again Doesn't mean she would have had the same period Naturally after the puberty blockers I'm telling you they are not irreversible If a girl loses her period And then gains it back It's not the same as having her period the whole time It's what that means She's different Yes her biological makeup Arden you're the one that's saying The medicine does have an effect But then it doesn't have an effect You want to have your cake and eat it too You're saying that you have some evidence You're pointing some study That's not real evidence That's not real evidence I'm just telling you I'm just being honest with you You're the one that's not based on reality You're saying that it's totally reversible Explain this If a girl has a mastectomy How is that reversible How is a mastectomy We're not here debating mastectomy Before you have a mastectomy You take hormone blockers Because that's on the path It's not like if you Take a hormone blocker You're entering a legally binding contract To cut off your tits In a non-reversible contract That you're signing to for life And you're trying to say that you're not Yes you are Medicine affects you for the rest of your life You're absurd Arden To think that taking puberty blockers For any amount of time doesn't have an effect On your body for the rest of your life Is absurd and you know that It doesn't have long term effects Oh my god Arden Babe you're telling me Puberty blockers don't have a long term effect Something that makes it so your penis stops growing Or give me a break Arden that is absurd I'm not okay with that That's fine That's what we're talking about We're here talking about penises Arden That's what we're talking about is penises I wish I had like a Click remote So I could pause you and mute you If you had any evidence If you showed up here with a study And said actually look I have this study that shows that this significant percent Actually do regret puberty blockers And that this significant percent Actually do have an issue I would say oh shit actually My position has been wrong I'm going to stop advocating For what I'm advocating for because the evidence Suggests that this isn't safe But the evidence overwhelmingly points In the direction that this is a Largely reversible treatment And that it is safe for kids There is no long term risks unless kids are on this For long term effects Okay so if they're on it for longer than two years There is long term effects And then they decide so you get at nine years old So so you get on it nine years old You get on it nine years old and you decide to stop At eleven is there long term effects No What he just said it was you just said it was You're such a liar you just said it Over two years there's long term effects You just said it man Sweetie pie honey buns you just said it Yeah two years yes yes Okay then nine to okay then how about Nine to twelve if you take it from nine To twelve and you stop taking it are there long term Effects So there are long term effects So are there irreversible effects Are there irreversible effects Can you stop you ask me a question I would like to answer your fucking question Go ahead please So the standards of care would never let A doctor have a kid on that medicine For longer than two years If a doctor is putting someone on that medicine For longer than two years Because at that point there is significant risk That doctor would be Committing like malpractice So I guess it's 23 months So at 23 months there's no damage There's no damage it doesn't have any Losting effects if you took the hormones For 23 months is at a 24 months No and if there's anything Okay so you really believe that Come on your base So you're telling me So if you take puberty blockers For 23 months but you stop And you don't take it for 24 there's No lasting effects you believe that honey You believe that You believe that You're lying and you know you're lying If you want to back up your point at all I'd be happy to talk to you Okay then let me ask you this question Answer this one question If you take puberty blockers If you take puberty blockers for 23 months Are there irreversible damage On a human being According to the data There does not appear to be any Significant risk of harm Before 24 months of use It's really sad It's just sad that you believe that That you can't see reality Right in front of your face and said Kid on it for 23 months would be affected by It's really sad that you're not basing around But I didn't come here to talk to somebody basing around Different bodies have different risks Actually in the standards of care Different bodies have different risks Perfect example You do a debate as like a back and forth Like Jesus If you look at the research Of the people who already have pre-existing conditions With such as like Eating disorders or that have Like osteoporosis or something ahead of time Shouldn't even be given this medicine Because there is a higher risk But assuming all else is healthy Like I'm assuming that this doctor would do their due diligence And give this kid a Full fucking examination before they put them on this medicine Then yes there's no risk at that point Like if you want to suggest otherwise You need to come with data You don't just get to say I know I've Listen I've watched the videos Everybody can do their own research You keep saying there's no data There is data I'm not saying that There are people on my side though as well I just want to address the audience really quickly Can we acknowledge here That when I just asked him to give evidence He suggested a YouTube video When I have like so many Academic studies Supporting my side There are academic studies on my side If he wants to defend his point With YouTube videos That's fine but I hope the audience Has the ability to discern Between someone who's backing their point up with evidence And someone who watched a couple of YouTube videos Arden you said You honestly are being honest When you said that a kid that took puberty blocks For 23 months doesn't have irreversible damage But a kid that 24 months does The fact that you can't The fact that you can't even justify that Or see that just shows that you're ingenious I mean you're being ingenious I'm very familiar with how medicine works Okay good then you should understand That yes with anyone There is a potential risk But as we pointed out already In this debate Medicine is about Weighing the cost benefit Yeah there is a potential risk Before 24 months but the potential risk Is not significant enough To warrant banning this medication For people who would actually benefit from it Yeah I disagree I just think kids are too young to disagree That's why Yes because it's irreversible Because it causes irreversible damage It is Arden It is irreversible She's the one She wrote a whole book about it There's a whole book about this I'm not even trying to bring that into it Because Arden I'm not trying to argue with you About this Okay but listen I'm on your side I'm not against trans people I'm not Arden I don't want to come off like I'm against that I'm just saying a nine year old Doesn't get to choose what they eat for dinner They don't get to choose whether they get to go to a macaroni Or rotisserie chicken So I don't think they should get to choose Whether they take puberty blockers because they like to wear a dress Or something No I'm not confused I'm not confused at all Is there any irreversible medicine at an age That they can't take any Should a nine year old be able to take Xanax? No because there's I'm not going to make a claim on that Should a nine year old be able to take Xanax I have no awareness of Exactly, see you know Arden You wouldn't give a nine year old Xanax You shouldn't give a nine year old puberty blockers You can't just insert words into my mouth If a medical professional could show me evidence That there was no significant risk to that kid And that kid had specifically enough symptoms That the benefit of taking the medicine Outweighed the risks Then I would be perfectly fine with it But I don't know anything about Xanax And I don't know what that has to do with puberty blockers You're the one comparing medicine You're the one saying puberty blockers are just like other medicine Jesus You gotta pull back your trigger half I'm sorry My sweet angel No I don't think That nine year old should just get to march Into a clinic and say Can you shoot me up with some Lupron Obviously fucking not I want a kid Who has been presenting with gender dysphoria For long enough Who is there with their parent Who goes to see a professional Who says this kid has demonstrated the appropriate symptoms For the appropriate amount of time And this kid is perfectly Within good health Has no other risks And is therefore qualified to be on this medicine Just like with everything else This kid's individual circumstances are And what medicine would be best for that child In that moment If a professional decides that that's the case Then I absolutely support that professional's Decision I'm not coming here saying That nine year olds get to decide their healthcare Obviously not And it's kind of annoying that you're going to keep suggesting that Because I'm saying that professionals Get to decide with parents What is best for a kid Who is presenting symptoms Overwhelmingly demonstrated that this Improves their quality of life You mentioned earlier kids who had Mental health issues and drug use There's particularly a study That measured kids who took hormone blockers Or actually I don't know if they took hormone blockers I think it was socially transitioned But kids who had supportive parents And supportive peers Their depressive symptoms All of their like those negative things you associated With being trans Or the exact same as their cis peers They had a negative They had a slightly higher anxiety levels But like their depression So you admit that more anxiety Come on it doesn't listen I get it I get it I get your position I know Arden I understand Listen you're going to have to defend this Daunchly and this is a hill that I don't want to die on I know that you're more passionate about it I just want to I'm what I'm going to say is If you're not going to die on this hill though Because I know You don't care about truth Because you're saying it's not irreversible And it is irreversible You're saying that these people can just take it for 23 months And then just stop taking it Arden let me say something Multiple times tonight You have said that this is reversible And the data that I've seen From that woman's book Says it is not reversible And there's other doctors that she quoted in that book That says if you take If you take hormone blockers for 23 months Or 24 months You admit after 2 years that you have irreversible damage So you admit You admit that you said that you have damage from that That's irreversible So I just don't think my the only thing I'm trying to do I just don't think kids should be able to choose At 9 years old to have some sort of Taking medicine that causes them to have Irreversible damage later on In life with their sexual reproductive health That is some of the most important Things in the world And getting laid is like my favorite thing I very rarely get to do it Everyone is insanely crazy about getting laid But anyway sorry I'm not going to get down that sidetrack This is why propaganda is so bad Because you have said irreversible damage so many times And it's clear that this book It's not And again I think you're not basing reality Arden No Alex, fuck you Don't say that because that is what Explain how it's reversible I think some study says it's reversible That's not enough If you're going to come at me and tell me that I'm not in reality You better have some fucking evidence to prove your point But the fact is you have nothing My evidence is that you said at 23 months That there's no damage but at 24 months there is So the fact that you can't even admit that Just shows that you're not basing reality Dude you don't You're misunderstanding what I'm saying If you get the impression that I think there's a magical switch At 24 months At 24 months there is statistically higher risk Obviously I don't know Everything about like blood chemistry Is there a possibility that like 23 and a half months Is where that actual like line is It's possible I don't fucking know That's irrelevant because the data suggests That 24 months, 2 years Is the deadline we should be concerned about Are there risks other than that That could potentially happen Yes, just like there are risks With every fucking medicine If you ever watched a medicine commercial At the end they list you like 75 different ways that your ass could explode Like from taking this medicine Real quick, let me answer that Everything with medicine Let me say one thing, America and Europe They can't have pharmaceutical commercials Because they're not allowed to advertise So if you look at Big Pharma here in America Make my point I know, I am too but what I'm saying Is Big Pharma here in America Is a for profit business That focus on the transitioning of children So this is, yes So this is a business So I don't trust Big Pharma I don't trust, what I'm saying Is you admit that Big Pharma is a problem But then you trust them to give children puberty blockers So you're talking out of both sides of your body Like, hey kids have you ever Felt like you're a little bit different How about you shoot up with a looper like Yes they have, yes they have What are you talking about The trans acceptance movement Which I'm all for Which I'm so pro-transmoving You can't say this at the same time I am pro-trans, I'm just saying They do studies, the amount of kids That identify as trans From the year 2000 to 2021 Is up 600% From the 20 years before That's not just because more kids Want to transition, it's because it's more socially acceptable Because there's a collective consciousness that makes it okay So more kids are likely to do it For different reasons, for social attention For actual attention Because they actually had gender dysphoria There's multiple reasons why you'd want to transition I'm just saying it's not just one reason It's not just one, oh because I was born in the wrong sex So if you just say that there are people that don't Make the decision to transition and change their mind That have irreversible damage Is in genuine, because there are multiple people that are on the internet That you can look, that regret ever transitioning They said it was the worst thing ever And they said they never wish they would have taken puberty Listen, let me finish, let me finish They said they never wish they would have taken puberty blockers They got prescribed to by a doctor after hardly going to them After the doctor hardly even hearing their situation So I'm just saying, if anybody falls to the crack And they start taking medicine at 9 years old That shrinks their dick and at 17 They want to change their mind and they got a tiny penis That sucks, I would hate that and I would probably kill myself So I can see why the rates of suicide Are high for people that have issues with Re-transitioning Jesus Christ, again that Doesn't matter, you can have stories I don't care about stories Stories on an individual Do I empathize with the individual telling that story? Yes, do I think like Man, I hope that we improve our diagnostic criteria So this happens less, absolutely Do I think wow, I wish there were more resources Even medically To help these people feel more in their skin After going through this Absolutely, but what that does not represent Is enough of a case To warrant taking away this medicine From people who Between a parent A medical professional And their child have decided is best for that child If you want to advocate for the state To ban this medicine Between a professional and a parent Have decided is the best thing for that kid That's fine if you want to be all like Super big government, like daddy state Fucking control everything that we can do With ourselves, that's cool On this position, I am advocating That you do not have enough evidence To warrant overriding Every major medical organization That supports Transitioning for kids What about homeless kids You keep on saying kids are their parents What about kids with that, should kids Homeless children or kids that are in youth detention centers Be able to transition without parental consent Or take puberty blockers without parental consent I think that is a More interesting question I think there is more I would hope that in that scenario to be fair I don't actually know how the Child penitentiary system works I would hope that in that situation That A medical professional is doing their due diligence In making sure that that kid qualifies With all of the symptoms You said parents, so the parent doesn't Need to be involved Okay, you asked me about a scenario Where there's no parents, so I'm conveying What I think would happen in a situation Where there were no parents If there were no parents involved I would hope that the medical professional involved Would do their very best to follow the Diagnostic criteria Which have an overwhelmingly high rate of success At diagnosis with kids And would do their due diligence Making sure that that kid doesn't have any Comorbid disorders like eating disorders Or osteoporosis That they would make sure that they follow the standards of care To a T Because my understanding is that a lot of people Who are in prison aren't getting good healthcare anyway So I can't imagine it would be better for kids But if they were homeless Or if they were kids, I don't think you necessarily Need a parent I would hope they would have a guardian Or someone around that could Help them go through the... Well, how does it work? In reality, how does it work? If you're homeless, you don't have a guardian Or a parent to go to gender reassignment surgery That's how it works I feel like if anything This is the case for socialized medicine I would hope that if these people Showed up to a doctor, a specialist I think I'm gender dysphoric I don't have a place to live That this doctor would be like They should be giving these kids resources I don't fucking know how to help their homelessness I'm not a professional in homelessness Without a parent A child should be able to choose on its own At 10 years old or 11 years old Without a parent to take puberty blockers Because you said multiple times to the parent What about a homeless kid? There are many situations where there are homeless kids wandering As a matter of fact There's a program that helps homeless youth transition Okay, but I think a lot of those homeless youth Are like 9 or 10 I'm saying, but there are charities That do help homeless children transition Without any sort of care Well, I think if they're 16 or older They definitely should be able to decide for themselves If they don't have a parent or guardian Or anything like that before 16 Then absolutely, I think if the doctor Does a thorough job With their diagnostic process Then yeah, they should absolutely be allowed to have medicine I disagree, okay, but There's just a lot of word to it I know, but no, you're like the parent Should be there and now you're saying the parents don't have to be there So you know, there's no integrity Wait, no stop No, no, no, no, no, stop You just said a parent needs to be there Now a parent doesn't need to be there Stop it, stop it right now You are misrepresenting me so fucking hard You asked me a specific situation Okay, parents should be there I think we both agree parents should probably be involved In a specific situation where there aren't parents If I give you an answer You ask me in a specific situation Where parents or guardians aren't involved What should happen, and I give you an answer You don't get to fucking turn around and be like Oh see, you don't think parents should be involved That's not what I said I specifically said parents Should be involved You asked me specifically Yeah, but so kids without parents Oh my god, you can't like Ask me a hypothetical But you can't have it both ways But you're having it both ways You're saying a parent should be in a kids without parents Can transition Is this that hard to understand If parents can be involved Parents absolutely need to be involved If there are no parents or guardians to speak of Should that kid be allowed to have medicine Yes, that kid should be allowed to have medicine You're saying like it's a life-saving medicine You know that you said that the bone density issue We're talking about quality Quality of life So I'm saying if you take a puberty blocker And you're less dense when you're older You're more susceptible to injury Is that fact or is that false With less dense bones So yeah, let's talk about bone density real good Let's talk about bone density Bone density is only an issue when you are on The hormone blocking drug If you are on cross-sex hormones Or if you stop using the drug The research shows that your peak bone mass Is the same as your Is your counterparts who don't use the drug So a medicine that if you got in a car accident It would make you more susceptible to dying in a car accident If you were on Lupron Against the standards of care for 32 years Then yes You would have brittle little toothpick bones And if you got in a car crash You would fall apart like a paper mache doll But literally nobody So that's medicine Nobody is in that situation because medicine Would tell you to stop taking that drug After two years of use Or to take the drug concurrently With cross-sex hormones That would create the risk of bone mass I just think it's irreversible But I mean I've really enjoyed it Arden, I have bases There's multiple stories Stories don't matter with data I don't need the data when I have a real person That said their penis stopped growing That's all I need to hear You know how embarrassing that is You know how embarrassing that is to go Arden, that's all the facts You can look at some fake study done by some school That's probably owned and bought and sold by some pharmaceutical company That is all together No, what I'm saying is it's done by some university That's trying to do some social agenda That are done by medical By some college university Yeah, I mean I don't think that When they take a small sample size I don't think that counts for the 7.5 billion people On earth When you do a sample size of 27,000 That doesn't represent the whole world Yeah, those places are about gender Because if you don't realize that there is a movement It's about child and adolescent psychology What are you fucking talking about And one of the most important things are kids with gender dysphoria That's probably one of the main things That's not true That's not an important issue That's not an important psychiatric issue I didn't say that's not important You said that's the most important I don't put a value over trans kids I think that is one of the most Most important mental health issues That should deal with kids with gender dysphoria Same with eating disorders I think they're all important I don't have a pie with limited slices To dish out of empathy I can say, oh, that's also important I care about that as well You're acting like there's an empathy Resource well And most of it's going to the trans kids And it should be that No, I care about All kids who are struggling I want all kids to be well And so I'm going by what the data says Is the best for this specific Population of children Well, I think we're just going to have to agree To disagree that they're not irreversible I can agree that we do disagree But I also say you're completely wrong And not based on the evidence Well, I think I'm the one that's more based In reality, but let's just agree To disagree And that sounds good, guys With that, it was a good back and forth And I think we're going to jump into The Q&A section And if you have a question For Art and Alex Send them into the chat Or let's get those super chats And all right It's been a nice debate, Arden I really appreciate you coming on here And being so gracious and spending your time Here, I just want to say I hope I Have not been disrespectful at all I don't think you are disrespectful I wish you cared About the research, but that's fine And okay The first super chat From Miss Tree For five dollars Alex, can you name A medicine that is Natural to take Can I name a medicine That is natural to take Like vitamin D I don't know if that's a medicine But I mean, I think that's natural To take you get from the sun All right, move it along Top still for five Pounds, question for Alex Have you ever Explored Orgasms Separate Through stimulating your Pro-state No pain Is needed I haven't, I would like to have that happen I've heard about it, I have not been Stimulated, I would like to be pro-state Stimulated to ejaculation Well, six dollars, six, six cents But I have not had that happen Let's talk about it, so check my blog There you go And all right, from Jupiter Darman For five dollars Arden, why do you prefer Doctors Studies Science, facts And evidence over It seems this way to me Individual Anecdotes and YouTube vids Good job Tonight, so I think I think I care about Data because while I think hearing people's individual stories Can be really moving, it can definitely Move you to care about that individual And what harm they went through It doesn't necessarily represent A broader phenomenon and I think As humans, we are pattern seekers We can be led to think there's a broader Phenomenon from a single story So I prefer to rely on Empirical data and evidence Because I think that leads to A more reliable World view and A, you can count A more reliable outcome that way And I'm the opposite, I like to talk to People and hear from the horse's Mouth type situation There we go, and all right Michael A For five dollars Stories are anecdotal Alex Can you provide any statistics Or data to back up Your claim that Puberty blockers are irreversible That isn't anecdotal I mean there is There's, I mean I'm looking at it right now I mean the study effects of puberty Blockers can last a long time UK High Court agreed If you just a simple google search guys You're gonna have to do your own research But there is data that says it's irreversible And even admit after two years of use It's irreversible But what I'm saying is So I believe even after a year or 18 months Is irreversible in my opinion You don't have evidence for that, but that's okay I do, I have evidence because I know If you take a pill and it makes your penis stop growing Your penis stops growing, so that's all the evidence I need That's with the tiny penises man Because if I had a tiny penis Luckily I have a great ding dong If I had a tiny one I would be very ill I'd be sick, I'd kill myself I've gotten quite a few dates with a guy who Has a small penis before in the past And still knew what to do with it It does matter to you You're a size queen I don't... The size of your dick shouldn't matter to literally anyone Including you, that's all I'm saying It does matter to me, it's one of the most important things Okay, go ahead See, we're learning today And from Crovis Crux For five dollars This is so harmful to the trans community Can we please stop this This helps literally No one Uh I think Actually you want to know, I actually have something to say for that The reason why I do these debates Is not necessarily because I love coming on here Because I think it makes a huge difference It's because the last few times I was offered to do a debate Somebody, I said no Somebody else did the debate And I thought they did a significantly worse job Representing the trans community These things are going to happen no matter what So I think it's nice to show up And represent the position as best we can But Alright Jonathan Fuller for five dollars Arden How do you keep calm During this debate Okay, well first of all, I love Jonathan Jonathan's amazing And I think I argue with people For kind of what I do So I don't know Was I calm? I feel like I was yelling quite a bit So I don't know if I was calm Thank you anyway You're a delicate flower, Arden Aw, thank you And okay KDoc with WZ500 Says dude I'm trying to think how to say this Size Size Does Doth Press Protest too much? A little bit, yes, that's what I'm saying You know, what if I told you that I took puberty blockers And then I regretted taking it I would be like I hope you have something That you have resources to help you feel better And live your best life I would not be like Let's brand medicine I would, I wish I would have banned it I would have a bigger dick, but go ahead From Jernsson from 4.99 Does Arden think that white children Who feel they are black Should be able to Identify as such And take meds To change skin color No, there is no evidence to suggest That being trans-racial is a thing that exists And there is definitely no evidence to suggest That taking any sort of skin changing Medicine would improve their quality of life That evidence does exist For trans people Well, Rachel Dull is Alice's Her life would have been better if she could have transitioned to body One story that's not data Well, that's a real true story for the horse's mouth I love stories And I am horny, not for you But for other stuff, I am horny, yes And From Charlize Pierce For $5 Alex How large Would that one person's Foulness have been without puberty Blockers? What if their dad Also had a small Foulness The biggest penis I've ever seen in my life And so that doesn't apply to me The biggest penis I've ever seen How many dicks have you seen? I've seen his dick and my dick, so I've seen two dicks And I saw a porno once, I saw a porno with Ron Jeremy So I've seen three dicks All bigger than mine I've never seen a dick Yeah, I've never seen a dick smaller than mine And we're moving along And If you have your questions Your burning desire questions Send them in for our fun Q&A section Alex What if the Horse Doesn't know what it is talking about? Yeah, that's not Horses don't lie, that's the first thing A rule of horses that can only tell the truth They're like turtles or elephants They never forget either Alright And From Andrew Handelsman From CA $5 Arden Thanks for bringing facts and evidence Instead of emotion Alex could learn something from you Uh oh, we're getting both I did learn a lot, I learned a lot No, I learned a lot tonight And okay, have another Have one coming in right now But I'll read one or two Regular question Where is James? James, I am actually I'm Amy Newman Sending you all love out there But James is eating popcorn right now I don't say Amy, you've done a great job As a moderator You handled it with grace Not too much stress You've been very professional I think you handled it excellent In James's absence Well thank you so very much And alright Got another super chat King TL for $5 Arden, how soon I think it's would you tell a guy You are trans If he's bought you a drink And seems interested Before or after You walk out of the establishment So my personal Rule is that Before Anything in the direction of sex Happens I would tell someone I don't think that that is a Moral obligation But I think it is Morally preferable to be honest You debated this again and that was Tommy King My man, one of my favorite colors And he was in a bar In Fargo, North Dakota where he was buying shots And then bought some shots of this girl Then they went outside and they made out He didn't fight or anything but she said that she was Trans Which that's why it was a personal thing But you did have this debate I don't think it should be legal Somebody should have to tell their sex But what about in the case where somebody gets married And they never have sex Do you think a person should be obligated To tell their sex Or they were born before marriage at least So it's kind of a similar thing Where I think that you can't demonstrate that Well in the case of marriage It's probably a stronger case for Needing to be honest I think honesty as Like a When things are getting serious It does have the potential to cause harm Dishonesty has the potential to cause harm I think that's the issue So yeah I think if you were getting married And not having sex First of all I would be concerned Well you can't, you're a good Christian Aren't you a good Christian, you don't have sex before marriage I'm a dirty Godlet, well actually I don't want to You've had sex before marriage Arden I'm a huge slut and I'm Are you kidding? Do you do anal sex? What kind of sex do you do? We don't need to discuss What kind of sex do we have Is it vaginal sex? You don't have a vagina right? So do you do anal? And so we have a super chat for 999 from SuperKPIL Kids often have no idea What they want They're careful about giving them drugs That can cause irreversible damage That's for you Arden This is what we've been talking about the whole time Yeah kids don't often know what they want That's the whole point of having a medicine Like Lupron So that these kids can have the time to say Jesus Christ am I trans Do I really want to go through with hormones Like I don't know So that's the whole fucking point of Lupron Is having a reversible drug Where people can stall puberty Reversible though Arden You admit that it's 23 months I agree it's not irreversible, that's true It's reversible, thank you for You know what I mean Arden Splitting hairs, we're not here to circumcise an ant I'm just saying if you take puberty blockers For 23 months, 18 months Even a year it can have Damage that is not fixable That's my point That's not true and you don't have That is true, I do have evidence Because I have guys with small penises that I've talked to And I have a small penis myself Michael for $5 Says Sounds like Alex is overcompensating For something a bit, just saying I'm under compensating I don't have enough, I'm under compensating I wish I had a bigger thing I need more If you guys have some extra out there I'll take it If I could strap it on I would I don't, I only have my one tool I gotta play with the hand I'm dealt And guess what, I'm a good poker player Eh, five-door donation, okay Go ahead, next question And we got another To come in, but I'll read A normal question in the meantime From UKP The child can have Irreversible psychological damage If not given a way At a prolonged torment Like started one way, went the other I'm not sure Child can have irreversible psychological damage If not given a way At a prolonged torment I think that's actually for Alex Yeah, I don't know I think you can have damage Mental health issues have nothing to do With your gender, you can have gender dysphoria Where you think you're in opposite sex You can transition and then get looked at By your peers in a weird way And then change your mind And have a social stigma behind it I think that's all possible But I think that is limited Because all those social stigmas And mental health aspects are reduced If you don't give children puberty blockers In my opinion And moving right along Corvus crux for five dollars Arden, this was less about you And more about the toxic Environment in chat And Alex being Alex, he's not here For a good faith argument That's what they always say I don't know how I'm not here for good faith That's what they always want to say I can tell you why But I feel like we've gone through it so many times It's not really worth the breath And converse Non-believer for 25 Both guests, if the evidence Of your Belief About blockers was proved Wrong What would that mean to you? Well, to me Even if it was Reversible, I'd like to get your opinion Even if it was reversible I still wouldn't recommend a child Choosing their sex For a gender just for nine years old Wait, I have to hone in on this You're telling me That even if it could be proven To your satisfaction That it was reversible and completely safe You would still object to it Because I don't think it'd be completely safe mentally I don't think there'd still be a social stigma behind it That's insane, dude I understand social sciences And there'd be a social stigma behind it Don't if you're saying that As a trans person You'd have to know there's a social stigma behind it So I'm saying even if you take the medicine Even if it doesn't affect you physically Physiologically or whatever It still affects you socially So I still don't think a kid is able to make that social decision At nine years old Regardless of their health I'm saying regardless of their health I still don't think a nine year old Is able to make that decision Well I'm not being dishonest I'm just saying I don't think a kid is able to make that decision Even if it is irreversible But the fact that the medicine isn't reversible Is a staunch reason why we shouldn't give it Because it's not healthy It doesn't benefit the person's health But even if that wasn't the case I still don't think that a child at nine years old Should transition because I don't think socially They understand the consequences With taking puberty blockers at that age Even if physically it doesn't affect them Can I show you what an honest abeater does If the evidence suggested my position was wrong I would say it was wrong and I would change my position Thank you I'm still anti puberty blockers Whether it hurts them physically or not I'm saying it hurts you physically Socially, mentally, emotionally It's all around You're just taking one part of it Just take an apple and one bite There's multiple bites to the apple And all right Donuts for five pounds Alex What kind of car do you drive I'm sure it's super big And expensive Compensating for something Disrespectful Great job, Arden I agree Great job, Arden, I drive a 2010 A Hyundai Elantra It gets 36 miles to the gallon I don't want to burn any gas I'm saving the environment I'm sure you guys believe climate change is real I don't I do it for you, Arden Because I want you to be able to have all that sex You were talking about earlier I don't want the planet to be underwater Because I know you're trying to get light And Two dollars from Endo after show, Amy I am just modern tonight But if any of you out there Have an after show, feel free to send it in And we will link it In the description Woo-hoo, all right Moving along, Will Stewart Hey, Will from TFC Rance for $4.99 Has Alex Ever not done a debate Drunk I don't drink, it's funny, I'm sober I don't even drink, I haven't drank And one of my best friends died three years ago I stopped drinking alcohol And, okay, great sky $50 The big 5-0 With all this talk about Penises I think Alex has shown Without a doubt That he is the biggest dick in the room I don't know I don't know, maybe I mean, probably I don't know I wish I didn't take those puberty blockers I'll tell you that much Another one coming in right now But while that's coming in I'll ask from Toto Kaka At what age Is it okay to do that I'm not sure what the question in context is That's for me 17 to be the earliest age And I still think that's a little early But I mean, I could see legality Legally, maybe even 16 In some circumstances The evidence would suggest That 10 or stage 2 or 3 So anywhere from 9 to 13 years old Is the most ideal time To have the best outcomes And not being on that medicine any longer than 2 years And then transitioning to Either complete cessation or concurrent use of hormones Yeah, if a 9-year-old can't drive a car They shouldn't be able to choose What kind of medicine they take To make their penis stop growing Never give 9-year-olds medicine If they have cancer, fuck them It's not medicine, it makes their bones It's anti-medicine That's not medicine If it makes you stop producing testosterone No medicine under 16 people That's not medicine That's not medicine If it makes your penis stop growing Because you have so much estrogen That's not medicine Okay, well just real quick Do you really think puberty blockers are the same as insulin Do you really believe that, Arden? Puberty blockers are life-thinking medicine You got to be kidding me You're telling me there's people that would die If they didn't have puberty blockers People would kill themselves if they didn't have puberty blockers Oh my God, so that's the same as That's the same as insulin That's the same as insulin This is proving my point, how ingenious you are That you're saying people would kill themselves That it's life-saving Nobody's died because they didn't get to transition Or you're not basing realities Wait, wait, wait, wait You were the one talking about suicide rates in trans people That is hot Holy shit, let me make a fucking point This is the point I was making My opening statement, how it's amazing How you have so much empathy for the potential Regretters, which the data suggests Is an immensely tiny population You have no empathy For pushing people through the wrong puberty Which is the majority of trans people Who would be denied this medicine Pushing them through the wrong puberty You mean they're biological I'm pushing them through their biological Check That's not true How can you prove that it's going to make their life Worse There's so much data on the quality of life Is worse for people before they have Their either puberty blockers Or hormones That is debatable If you have evidence If you have evidence The fact that you You say puberty blockers Are the same as insulin And they're both life-saving drugs That just shows you know nothing about medicine That's what I'm saying Alright, sure Whatever you fucking say Ten dollars from Matt Dillahunty Hi Matt Alex, do you realize you can Respond to Arden Gendering her properly Without the casual sexism Of honey, sweetie My sweet angel Because it's pretty gross Also, sorry about your penis Well First of all, that's how I talk to all ladies And I'm happy that you're sympathetic to my penis I wish more ladies were empathetic to my penis size But It's just a natural thing that I've had to live with my whole life But Like I said A carpenter Learns how to use his tools I know how to use them and it's about the motion in the ocean That's what I'm saying It's not always about the size of the boat It's the motion in the ocean So I can only be so depressed But life goes on, right? But I'm sending love to both our interlocutors And five dollars From Michael B.C.A Alex You said you learned a lot What did you think is the Strongest argument Against your position And what makes it the strongest The strongest Well, there isn't a strong argument to my opinion Because I'm the strongest debater of all time There's only weak, sad, little Excusive arguments that Their lives are better with a bunch of fake data So that's the answer Alright I'm sorry I just want to point out that They asked He said he learned a lot They asked what the most convincing argument was What did I learn What did I learn What did I learn I learned that if you take Puberty blockers for over 24 months And a doctor, you know, misdiagnosed you And you're getting a car accident And your bones will Break like glass I learned that, he said that That's the most important thing I learned Alright 499 from The Dexter Morgan himself My gosh, for both What's suicide Slash depression rate In pre-slash post-op What is the suicide depression rate In pre- or post-op blockers What's the percent Of adults that Regret changing themselves Once their brains matured It's kind of like Two questions She knows all the stats She says there's very little I think the stats much higher You have to do your own independent investigation Regret rate stat If you follow me on Twitter All the resources I was using for tonight There is data out there On what the suicide rates are Before and after And I'd be happy to come through that for you And get you those actual numbers I don't have those off the cuff But I know exactly where to get them So it should take me maybe an hour To pull all that together Alright, that sounds good And $2 from IntraSpecies Does Alex prioritize Anecdotes over empirical data Not necessarily anecdotes But I mean word of mouth I mean real stories Stuff that I can touch and feel from my No, listen It's not an anecdote if I can touch and feel it with my hands And I can hear it from the horse's mouth You want an anecdote? Or you have a bunch of fake You have a bunch of fake data I thought you like anecdotes I love anecdotes, give me one Please babe, come on hit me with your best shot Research that said D-transition at some point 60% re-transition And only 4% for regret How many transitions are they gonna do? D-transition, D-transition, transition back How many transitions are we gonna go? How many transitions are we gonna have? Chill, chill big guy I was gonna give you an anecdote I didn't even get it out before But how many transitions You think I'm sexually repressed? Is that why? Can I please give you my anecdote? Feel my sexual repression Oh my god I gave you that data Because I was trying to point out that I actually know someone Who is D-transition and re-transition Do you know who she is? You're looking at her Oh see, you changed your mind too Yeah, and I went back But you had to go back because your penis is all small That's why Arden, that's why Yes, I bet that's why You had weird penis syndrome You're thinking a lot about my penis But okay, if that's what's on your mind Well, I'm saying So you went back to a man And then you realized I want to go back to a female You're a very lovely lady I'm not saying you're not a lady I'm just saying you changed your mind I mean, you still had some sort of doubt And that's concurred with the data that I showed you A lot of people have that doubt Is what I'm trying to say So I don't want them to make irreversible damage to their body Because they're still, you know You're the one, your position was What will give them irreversible damage that they'll regret $5 from King TL, Arden Thanks for the honesty And yes, Alex told The true tale Of what happened to me once There's comment King TL Another $5 Arden, Alex, yes $99 is genuine He's a good man And true peace And respect for all That's a fan of mine Thank you, Tommy And $5 from Ms. Tree, Alex If you get A transplanted Hold on, what's that? From a trans woman Alex, if you get a transplanted From a trans woman With a bigger Johnson Would you support her removing it? Okay, for that Yes, selfishly, yes If somebody's going to donate their bigger penis to me And they're not using it I recommend puberty blockers, not to children Not to children, but to adults But yes, if they do want to donate a bigger penis to me Go to conspiracycastle.live And there's a contact page I'm taking all penis donations There you have it, folks Not a chump for $5 Should a child With body integrity Disorder Condition where you feel a limb is not Really yours, quotes Be able to get surgery to remove Say in arm This question is Is a little more complicated than being trans Right? Because like, if you're trans And you get a surgery like genital surgery You don't need Like a caretaker You can just go on with your life But if you get like a limb removed You might need someone To take care of you So whether or not There's a lot more levels to consider When it comes to that sort of thing However, if You're saying your arm is less important than your penis Your penis is more important than your arm, Arden Wait, I don't know how you got that From what I'm saying, but You're saying that But real quick, there's more levels To decide if you cut off your arm Than if you cut off your penis Alex, oh my god You have two arms, but you only have one of each But it's a bigger deal to cut off your penis Than to lose your arm Disagree completely So you'd rather have your You got to be kidding me You think that the penis Is less important than your arm I didn't even get to my point yet Okay, go to your point, sorry Goddamn If there was a decision That was supported by evidence All parties were in agreement And the doctor agreed that this person Would probably cut off their limb If I didn't do this safely If I were in agreement, it was supported by the evidence Best option for The best possible outcome for this patient Then yeah, I would support that Professional making that decision And Crovis cracks for $5 Alex, what about Young girls that Require depot Provera It causes similar bone density loss It helps manage Endometriosis And PCOS So you're talking about The transition drug, it also helps Men with pancreatic cancer Create less testosterone, so they have less tumor So yeah, I mean, are there applications That are beneficial for these drugs To be used? Yes, but the application To stop your penis from growing Is not the proper application of these medicines Can I point out really quickly? He just agreed that there are applications For these medicines No, but they take Adults, they give adults puberty blockers With cancer Whatever, pancreatic cancer Because it stops the tumors Because it makes your body create more estrogen That's one of the medical uses of the drug I mean, my point Well, that's an application I approve of I don't approve of for 9 year olds To make their penis stop growing Medicine is what Alex approves Medicine for the right application It's the same reason you can't take ivermectin Topo Tessil For 5 pounds Alex, you are against medicine For 9 year olds That make a penis smaller Do you support Viagra For 9 year olds as it makes The penis bigger? No, I don't think 9 year olds should take Viagra There we go folks Torben Hamilton For 5 dollars Alex, did you know That epithenephrin Is a hormone drug Should children In anaphylaxis Be denied epithenephrin No epithenephrin, people need it So no, that's different than transition surgery I mean puberty blockers So we're comparing apples and oranges No, people need it Epithenephrin, some people need epithenephrin I take a hit every once in a while Just to kind of wake up in the morning Got one or two more Coming in, I'll ask From Todokaka What is acceptable Wow, somebody's giving me a hundred dollar donation Wow Jay Wams, thank you Wow, that's insane Wow, I'm rich What is acceptable As sex change Is that for me? Transition can be a lot of things Yeah, this is a good question Because I like the show RuPaul's Drag Race And so I'm saying like I'm pro drag That's not transitioning That's not a transition So that's what I'm saying Is what is the transition when you decide That I'm going to live as this permanently I'm saying because What is considered the different What I'm trying to say is what is the difference between drag And then when you full transition in your opinion So there's different answers to this Like what is sex change? Are we talking legal? Like legality, it varies by state and country Like some states it's You might not necessarily have any medical intervention Some sort of pre-existing condition That prevents you from getting those medical interventions But if you had like a several therapists And a doctor say despite that This person is in fact trans And deserves to be recognized legally As the gender they identify as Then that sex change is sufficient Some countries you're required to Be fucking To have like a What do you call it Where you have like your ovaries removed Or your testicles removed, what is that That you're required to be recognized In other countries in order to be legally recognized But also What is sex? I have boobs Long hair, ass Like Is it useful to call me a male at that point? Like I don't know, I feel like that term Ceases a lot of utility there Is that a sex change? Like it's complicated There's so many different things going on In terms of like a sex change You really have to specify like legal It's a complicated subject And Jonathan Fuller for $5 You like antidotes Right Alex My sister is dead And not getting to Publicly Safely Transition Is the underlying cause I'm sure there's, I'm not saying That people haven't ever committed suicide because they couldn't Transition, I just think more people commit suicide Because they either decided to transition Prove it, prove it with evidence Well there is, there is evidence You can look at all of them Stories are evidence man I don't think these are people who are lying That's just what I'm saying I never said they were lying And $5 from Studyside Ramsey Alex Define Anecdote Listen, I didn't come on here to define Honestly I wouldn't know anecdote If it hit me in the face I'm kidding, I'd say like anecdotal evidence Like if you eat chicken and broccoli You'll gain muscle in the gym It's not necessarily proven, it's just kind of like Anecdotal, like chicken soup for the soul But yeah I do a lot of anecdotal stuff But I think there are a lot of solutions To problems with anecdotal solutions I know that sounds crazy But I honestly believe big pharma Is a machine that is a capitalist pig And that it is owned by multinational corporations That don't have a soul So they're not worried about actually keeping As healthy that they want to keep us perpetually Sick, so the idea that big pharma likes Somebody that has to go on puberty blockers And has to go on transitional surgery So they will be leaning on big pharma For the rest of their life, so it just feeds Into their funnel of more money and more control So I look at it like the aspect Of anti-big pharma I can't just let that be said without having it challenged I hope the audience does not take that People don't choose to be trans Like people are like This is just like any other No, no, no, no, no, I'm not saying you did I'm not saying you did I'm just saying that lots of people have lifelong conditions That require them to be on medicine Nobody chooses this shit Do I think there are people who benefit from it And that they will maliciously take advantage of those people Absolutely, that doesn't mean Hormone blockers are the problem And $1.99 from Will Stewart Does Alex get mistaken as Charlie Kirk? I'm a little thicker than Charlie No, everybody thinks I'm right-wing I'm not some conservative like him I don't vibe with him I think another thing, medicine should be socialized I don't think insulin should be $200 here And $2 in Mexico doesn't make sense We agree there And from See We Found Common Ground Tonight, guys GJM PTW $5 If a child starts blockers At $9 And stops at $11 What happens after? Good question, actually It depends If you're assigned female at birth And you are transitioning to be male Or masculine or whatever What would happen is They would start concurrently introducing testosterone In your system at the same time as using The hormone blocker That alleviates any issues With bone mineral density And they would do that specifically Because if they put you right on testosterone You would have the testosterone levels Of an 18 year old guy at 11 And that obviously is not desirable For a kid So they would do like a dual use There are sometimes other options That they can use to get them to like 16 And the same thing would happen For someone transitioning from male to female And I think this is the last question Unless anyone has more But fast and easy 2010 For $5 I went from Against hormone blockers to kids To conclude Alex lost the debate I'm no longer against the idea Well done, this was very Interormative But I feel like he at least has to respond Because that's for you, Alex Well that's fake That's obviously somebody on the ardent side Anybody that sits here tonight And wants to give their kids irreversible Puberty blockers at the age of 9 Is not based in reality And it's just trying to virtue signal For their own social justice You know, cause Cope harder Cope harder And alright Everyone I'm looking through chat I think that is it Which means Arden of Eden And Alex Stein are listed In the descriptions below If you're like, hmm I really liked what I heard today You can go find them But with that I think I'll just hand it to each of you To give your final piece And we will go out Yeah So, well thanks for having me You know, despite That I get heated And I will definitely yell and tell you You're stupid or you're wrong, I don't hate you I actually think I have more respect for people Who can sit there and argue like that with me And not come away thinking I hate them I Hope that I convince you that Well, maybe you aren't like ready To go give puberty blockers to trans kids That there isn't actually a good case against it And if you're still curious I really do hope people feel comfortable Because I would love to share my sources with you I think they're pretty good I think they're pretty convincing And if you thought I was super fucking wrong And you want to tell me how wrong I was You should call into transatlantic On Saturdays at 5pm central time Over on the line We take calls from anyone on all issues Relating to being transgender Thank you Thank you so very much Arden And I just want to say Arden You were very gracious and Amy did a great job And basically you know tonight I get it guys I'm going to be a contrarian Arden and I aren't going to agree on everything I think I tried to find some sort of common ground Still I don't know if we were able to agree That The effects of these Of this medication is irreversible But the one thing we did argue is that I don't have data And I just want to make it clear guys They're going to say this whole time you're going to go back and listen I don't have data Just do a simple google search There are multiple stories and you can do it on youtube You can do it on there You can do it by upload date if you do the search People regretting the transition There's just lots and lots of stories so I'm not making this up And I'm not even against transitioning People who can transition all they want I'm just saying there are a lot of people that change their mind Arden even said at one point in her life She changed her mind So when you're giving people irreversible medication For something that they could potentially change their mind about Makes it extremely dangerous And I think that they should wait until they're a little older to take it To transition Yes, at an appropriate age they can transition all they want And I want to say I love this debate I love talking with you guys And if you guys want to follow me at the conspiracy castle You can hear me talk about even crazier stuff than this And I really enjoyed myself Thank you guys again Thank you so much Alex In fact, thank you guys both And we have just conflated Our debate of puberty blockers For trans kids I am Amy Newman For today's debate we are sending you Lots of love Goodnight everyone Bye Bye