 The leaders of the BRICS countries are set to meet in August in South Africa. However, this summit, which is supposed to be a grouping of the leaders of some of the most powerful economies, some of the powerful emerging countries in the world, is running to a controversy over demands for the arrest of Russian President Vladimir Putin. Now, this debate has been going on for many months now. There has been debate inside South Africa, in the world, in other BRICS countries. There were even some reports of the summit maybe being moved. So, what is the politics around it and what is more importantly happening in South Africa? We have with us Professor Mandla Haribe, who is Director of the Center for Data and Digital Communications at the University of Johannesburg. Thank you so much for speaking to us, Professor. Thank you for having me. Right. So, first, let's go straight into the news, which is all these debates going on about the arrest of Vladimir Putin or the demands for the arrest. And there has been external pressure, of course, as you can guess. But I suspect internally also there's been a lot of discussion and debate about this. So, maybe can you take us through what you see as the current situation on this issue? Yes, absolutely. I think the starting point for me is that what is happening currently here in South Africa is that the government has been quite resolute that the BRICS summit will be held here in South Africa. President Cyril Ramaphosa has been engaging heads of states of the BRICS partners. Recently, President Ramaphosa had a telephonic discussions with his Chinese counterpart Xi Jinping, where BRICS was obviously on the agenda. Obviously, this then was subsequently followed by the visit to Kiev as well as Moscow, which President Ramaphosa led with a delegation of his African counterparts, I think about six countries. But what is critical here is that South Africa's non-aligned stance is also well documented and hence the recent peace mission to Ukraine as well as Russia. As early as yesterday, you may be aware of this fact that President Ramaphosa held meetings with his Brazilian counterpart, President Lula da Silva, on the sideline of the summit I think it's on New Global Financial Pact, which is currently underway in France, in Paris. Of course, one of the interesting parts about BRICS is that if you have listened to President Lula's stance with regard to what he also regards as a Russian invasion of Ukraine, sort of also complicates the situation a little bit. But President Lula da Silva later revealed in his Twitter account that his discussions with President Ramaphosa focused mainly on the resolution of the conflict in the Ukraine, an issue that obviously the President President says is imperative in promoting peace and he has been raising this issue as early as January. Now, if you don't mind me continuing and reflect on some of the external pressures that South Africa has been experiencing is that the fact of the matter is that South Africa is facing both what I will call internal and external pressures. Obviously, the external pressure is being exacted by the West, which in my view has been, I mean we all know it is funding the war in Ukraine through his war alliance NATO. They have deliberately argued, especially the U.S., excuse me, that South Africa's non-aligned stance is essentially a covert support for Russia. I suppose the non-alignment for the West would simply mean South Africa coming out guns blazing against Russia in support of Ukraine. And hence the bizarre utterances you might have heard from the U.S. ambassador to South Africa, Ruben Rigeti, who made some serious allegations that South Africa provided weapons and ammunition to Russia. Expectedly, this has been followed by a series of threats by the U.S. in a form of threatening, excluding South Africa and isolation of South Africa from the African Growth and Opportunity Act. Again, you may recall that there were four U.S. congressmen from both the Democratic Party as well as the Republican Party who wrote an official letter to the U.S. President Joe Biden to this effect. And lastly has been what I will call the internal pressure from South Africa. Inevitably, this has led to pressure from the opposition parties, especially what I will characterize as parties of the right parties on the right, the right-wing parties such as the Democratic Alliance, who obviously are accusing South Africa of siding with the rogue states and the rogue president like Putin. Of course, this is very important in the South African context when you take into account the fact that next year, in 2024, South Africa will be embarking on a national general elections. And this is putting the governing party, the African National Congress under severe pressure. Of course, linked to the internal pressure has been the commentaries from the economic analysts, media pandits, as well as the commercial media in particular, which is very powerful and independent in South Africa. That is putting pressure on government as usual using frames such as human rights, economic collapse. Because I think the common narrative that you will find in South Africa is that the country risks losing up to 40 percent of its trade from its Western partners if the country were to be fully sanctioned by the U.S. You know, many South Africans are genuinely concerned about this possibility because we also know that our economy has been ailing, it has been stagnant for over a well over a decade now. The Minkley class in particular hates being inconvenienced. If you put the pressures of the constant power cuts that the country has been facing, the escalating interest rates from the Reserve Bank, which is squeezing the Minkley class, therefore you can understand this serious political pressure that the governing party finds itself under. Right, that is a very comprehensive analysis. But also to extend the analysis further, I wanted to sort of ask you how the situation has been overall since the Ukraine war started. How is South Africa sort of navigated, you know, the kind of pressures that are coming in, not just at this moment, but for the past one and a half years? Obviously, you know, you left to locate this from the emergence of Russia. I think South Africa, the governing part in particular, has been very clear and resolute in its views that the current economic trajectory, which is a continuation of the past of the apartheid system, which therefore makes South Africa reliant on the West, it has to be stopped at a particular point. And therefore, there have been quite a number of overchowers in trying to create links, particularly with the big Asian economy, India and China, but as well as other partners in Latin America, which is very important. So this is an ongoing issue. But obviously, when a country faces quite a number of internal challenges such as a stagnant economy, growing unemployment, growing rates of poverty, growing inequality in South Africa is by far one of the most equal societies in the world that creates pressures that sort of makes everyone to be internally focused. And that has put South Africa in a very tight situation where it finds itself. Hence, it cannot afford a tragedy, which you ask me, to lose the economic benefits that comes with this alliance and working partnership with the West. Professor, in this context, of course, also looking at BRICS itself. Now, we do know that in the previous years, BRICS had kind of suffered a bit of a recession of its own, if you can call it so, it kind of vanished from the picture for a bit. But now there's been renewed interest in BRICS, of course, partly due to the Ukraine war, partly due to the fact that many more countries are now sort of wanting to join the bloc, also due to the fact that many of the key members of BRICS have taken a very strong position when it comes to global affairs also now. So, all this together, BRICS is suddenly emerged or re-emerged as one of the key groupings that people are looking up to, looking at with a great deal of interest. So, how does South Africa see its role in this grouping? Well, I think it may be helpful to sort of try and trace the history of BRICS and how it emerges. You may recall that BRICS emerges as a form of a solidarity program that sought to enable like-minded nations to negotiate as a bloc. I mean, if you can therefore not understand the BRICS outside of IBSA, India, Brazil, and South Africa program that emerged as the basis of the AIDS negotiation, which the West was selling to South Africa at an exorbitant price. You may recall that India was therefore prepared to sell the same drugs to South Africa at extremely reduced prices, but of course, those are sort of being blocked by the West. The objective was to therefore create this form of solidarity and negotiate as a bloc. This objective, in my view, remains quite pertinent because in essence, in essence, this is internationalism in action because partnerships based on concrete needs of nations and humanity are very important. The principle must therefore be to the continuation of the basic of BRICS, whether it expands, but at the basis of that it must be the putting of people first before profit. Its expansion cannot therefore ignore these forms of solidarity and these forms of ensuring that we protect our planet. We put the needs of the poor people first and make sure that humanity stands for what is good. And I think for me that's what is important. And I think that's what makes BRICS interesting to other parties, but also it can't escape the fact that it becomes therefore an ideological platform. Right, so in this context, also looking at this, we were talking about especially the past one and a half years. I also wanted to see the larger regional implications from your perspective in South Africa because like you said, for instance, recently we had a delegation from African countries, key leaders, key presidents visiting both Ukraine and Russia. But even earlier during various votes on sanctions, for instance, many African countries have banded together, also sort of made a statement that they're not willing to just be pushed around and accept the framing of the the West's framing of the global situation right now. So how is South Africa also, I think, dealt or navigated in the region in this one and a half years, what have been the kind of collaboration, the alliances that are sort of built up? Well, I think firstly, we must appreciate the promise and signs that are emerging from the African continent that seeks to assert its independence, but also African unity. I mean, you look at the developments in Mali in the west of the African continent. You get that you look at the utterances that are coming from the east of Africa, the Kenyan president, again, it starts to affirm that, but it's not easy. And I think that in my view, South Africa has not been able to push as it should have for the BRICS agenda, which requires a solid United Africa as a block. If you look back around mid 2000, South Africa was quite aggressive at the forefront of transforming the organization of African unity into the African Union, driving effectively the Africa agenda. This led to the emergence of programs such as the new partnership for Africa's development, which was part of this agenda. But in the last decade, I think, as I have already alluded to, that there has been some serious contestation, especially by the former colonies using the economic stick and carrot approach, particularly in the Francophone countries. I mean, South Africa was pushed deeply and our soldiers were killed in the Central African Republic by the French colony because you could see that there was that contestation. But the region, in my view, sees value in BRICS. African countries have been pushing to be part of the BRICS. I mean, if you think about Nigeria, which is Africa's second largest economy, has been pushing quite hard to be part of for BRICS to be expanded because they see a value in the unity and this block negotiation in driving this solidarity. But I think that the clue that, in my view, that will hold BRICS together should be a minimum program of these what I would call progressive countries that will seek to assert a multi-pointer perspective as a basis of building a better world that will benefit humanity. Absolutely. And it's thing you mentioned, countries like Mali, for instance, where there's been a very strong internal process. In fact, a constitutional referendum, I believe, is going on as has already taken place as we are recording. And many of these places, mass upsurges taking place against imperialism, against the former colonizers. So in this context, how has the dynamic been inside South Africa itself? Has there been, shall we say, a rise in anti-imperialist spirit, especially among the organized workers, for instance, among the masses? You mentioned that there are some sections which are clearly taking a pro-Western stance. The opposition, for instance, the right wing opposition, the big media. But generally what has been the sentiment among the populists, if I may ask? Well, I think South Africa could be understood as, if I can give you a bit of history of South Africa that I'm sure you might be familiar with, is that the 1910 formation of the African Union essentially created two nations in South Africa, the white nation and the black nation. And by black, I mean black in general, Africans, Indians, and the so-called colored people in South Africa. That sort of created what I would call the people's camp that sought to drive the liberation struggle and what was then regarded on the other side as the enemy's camp. That was the basis of the internationalism that was formed in South Africa as a basis platform to fight for liberation. Therefore, the progressive countries of the East supported this drive for freedom. I think Russia was quite central to that. We all know the Cubans, the Indian comrades, the Chinese. Lastly, I think South Africa has remained with that huge block of progressive politics in that regard. Of course, there's a small population that still is still aligned to NATO countries for historical reasons. Of course, the majority of the population, in my view, in the movements remained broadly left and anti-imperialist. However, of course, the proof will be in the inability, in my view, of South Africa withstanding economic pressures. Because it is where the minority can use its financial master. Because the minority in South Africa still controls the economy, still controls a huge part of the commercial media. And through these media platforms, including the emerging technological platforms, they are using them to asset their dominant views in support of the NATO Alliance. Because if you think about it, if you analyze how the South African media, the commercial media, covers the war, you would swear that South Africa is completely against Russia. Whereas when you go on a ground on workers' platforms, whether it's organized labor, whether it's civil movement, you will still find a sense that a vast majority of South Africans, they tend to side with the progressive forces. I think it's also the same case when it comes to the Israeli-Palestine occupation. I mean, if you read the media, you'll think that this issue does not exist in South Africa. But a huge population of South Africans are in support of the struggle of the people of Palestine and other oppressed people of the world. But of course, at the heart of this division in South Africa has been our inability to resolve the national equation. Indeed, we must accept the fact that we are a unique country in South Africa with a huge European secular community outside of Europe, found anywhere. We've got a huge Indian population in this country. So this complicates our efforts to forge a new nation whose glue that will hold it together will include a common economy, a common language, and a common culture. So all those dynamics I play in South Africa, if you want to analyze this regional and international balance of forces and politics, we have to navigate some of those things. But the long and short, I think that the vast majority, my reading is that the vast majority of the people in South Africa remain in what I would call the People's Camp, the progressive politics. Thank you so much, Professor, for talking to us and giving us an understanding of, I think, of course, the immediate context to the BRIC summit, but also the larger geopolitical trends, shall we say, in the region as well and in South Africa. Very useful to understand the perspectives of various BRICS countries as we move towards the summit. Thank you so much for talking to us. Thank you very much for having me. It's a pleasure. And that's all we have time for today. The BRIC Summit in the coming months, definitely a major point of interest. The debates and even controversies might keep increasing. We will be tracking it very closely on People's Dispatch. Until then, do visit our website, follow us on all our social media platforms, and see you soon.