 Gracias por estar con nosotros. Bienvenidos a esta. Este es un economista. Tenemos una tabla de economistas y es bueno porque es un tema que vamos a dedicar. Luis de la Calles, director y founder de Madras, un economista de la Instituto Autónoma de México. Arif Navi, el founder del Grupo Amrach, de los Emiratos Unidos. Gracias por estar aquí, y él es el copresidente o co-chair del mundo económico también en Latinoamérica. Gracias. Marcelo Cortes, Neri, ministro de Estrategia de Affairs, de Brasil, con el PhD en Economía de Princeton. Él es otro economista. Gracias muy mucho. Estamos en un momento en el que es uno de la inflexión en Latinoamérica. El reporte reciente de la Bank del mundo ha mostrado que la clase de la middle, por la primera vez, tiene un rol muy importante, un rol repondrante dentro de la sociedad latinoamericana. Es estimado, y no soy una persona que pregunta estos números desde el Bank del mundo, pero ha dicho que la clase de la middle es más superior que la lower class, por 32%, y las personas que tienen una situación de lower income son 30%, pero el mundo el Bank reconoce que hay tantos desafíos adentro de nosotros. Tenemos una clase de la middle que está creciendo, pero todavía tenemos una clase de la low que es muy vulnerable para cambiar. Tenemos un precio de alta y el precio de alta que afecta principalmente a la joven, y esta es una región muy joven, y también afecta a las mujeres, donde la mayoría de las personas en la población son mujeres, y también hay un conductor de la economía en la mayoría de los casos en el hogar, entonces hay una serie de peores sociales que no han sido conocidos, y todavía tienen una clase de la middle que podría ser una, y un problema también, un problema para la gobernación en algunos países. Esta es la clase de la middle. Ellos son los que también ponen presión por mejores niveles de educación, mejores niveles de salud, etcétera. Ellos son los que salen en la calle, en muchos de los países latinoamericanos, en order para demandar ciertos derechos. Entonces, hay muchas preguntas para responder de cómo preparar la clase de la America es, precisamente, tener una clase de la middle, que no necesariamente significa un conductor de la consumción interna, eso es algo importante considerar. Me gustaría hablar de un principal en una debate técnico, y no voy a hablar de esto, pero queremos hablar un poco de la definición de la clase de la middle, porque tenemos un problema también, cada país tiene una definición diferente. En realidad, hay surveys, y parece que la clase de la middle es más alta. En México, hemos tenido ciertas surveys, y ellos todos dicen, cuando se preguntan, que están de la clase de la middle. Las personas dicen, yo considero la clase de la middle, y incluso las personas que son de la clase de la más alta consideran la clase de la middle, y viceversa de la clase de la inferior consideran la clase de la middle. Tal vez, si me preguntan, yo diría que soy de la clase de la middle, pero tal vez no es de esa manera, tenemos que ver qué es la definición técnica. Y me gustaría comenzar con Luis de la calle. Sé que es una debate difícil, pero ¿qué es, en tu opinión, la definición más acurada de la clase de la middle en Latinoamérica? Muchas gracias, Mario, por la oportunidad. Creo que la discusión técnica de qué es o qué no es la clase de la middle es uno de los primeros grados de importancia. En Latinoamérica, podemos decir con mucha certeza que la mayoría de la población no es poca. Y esto es una novelidad, porque en Latinoamérica, históricamente, si tenemos una asesoría sensorial, cuando comparado a 150 años atrás, la mayoría de la población era poca, y eso no fue demasiado largo. Estaba extremadamente poca. 40 años atrás, 80% de mexicanos eran pocos. Y ahora mismo, estamos discutiendo si la poca es la mayoría o no. Y así que, como un país no es poca, por la mayoría, por definición, entonces el país no es una poca país. Y así que siento que el aspecto más importante de acknowledgar que la mayoría de la población no es poca y es de la clase de la middle, es que remove esa excusa para no hacer cosas de manera que deberían ser. Muchos políticos y analistas han tomado la poveridad como una excusa para decir, bueno, no he construido el derecho estadounidense, o esta ronda fue croqueta, la ronda quedó, oh, estamos muy pocos, esa es la razón. Y así que sus excusas, no puedo tener una buena primera clase de la clase del mundo, el sistema de administración, porque estamos pocos. Y así que cuando hemos cambiado la perspectiva o el worldview para definirnos como países de la clase de la middle, estamos estableciendo la fundación para el desarrollo de la verdadera. Y estás bien, si te preguntas mexicanos, si consideran a ellos, la clase de la middle o no, van a decir, 75% de ellos dirán, sí, estamos en la clase de la middle. ¿Y quién somos? ¿Están analistas para decirle, no, no, no, no estás en la clase de la middle, porque estás pobre y no tienes un futuro. La creación de la clase de la middle va a tener un impacto enorme en el desarrollo político, económico y social de Latinoamérica. Por supuesto, los políticos les gustan poner un metal en sus brazos y decir que gracias a ellos o sus programas, las personas son más o menos pocas o tienen acceso a la clase de la middle. Creo que eso es completamente malo. La progreso de las personas es 90% debido a su propio esfuerzo. Ellos abrieron tarde, trabajan, estudian, educan sus niños, inviden en su casa, inviden en un vehículo o un carro, van a la universidad, inviden en los ácidos y 10% son programas de gobierno. Y creo que en la forma económica del mundo la pregunta debería ser, intentar encontrar el futuro del negocio. La creación explosiva de Latinoamérica en la clase de la middle es la mejor oportunidad para el negocio en nuestra historia y las empresas o compañías que van a ser sucesivos son los que se han convertido entre la informalidad y la formalidad que es, esa transición de informalidad a formalidad de negocio, para hacerla un negocio y para hacer la transición en una manera que vamos a tener una creación explosiva en Latinoamérica. Estamos already seeing examples of companies that have seen in the transformation of middle class society as an opportunity for business. That's really what's going to trigger the business the most, more than the public policies or the discussions in terms of sustainable growth in country or region. I think that you're right in many regard but the threshold or the spectrum of middle class is very broad. You talk about an explosion of middle class but we don't know yet if they can really become a consumption driver internally. I'd have my reservations or doubt with respect to that. It's not the same to have to make $2.50 per day which is for a country consider middle class then to earn $50 a day per hour I mean in Mexico when you're pressured by analysts to ask who is right of who is middle class or not the analysts from the desk say in the Mexican case at least that it's a country that is mostly poor because the investments open malls once per day, every day. Let's go to Mr. Cortes Neri because there are personal opinions you've already talked about, stadiums that are not well constructed. Now let's talk about the situation in Brazil and I think that's a good example please. I think we have when we normally talk in middle class we normally think about US middle class with two cars, two dogs, a swimming pool. This is not the Latin American middle class, this is not a world middle class in my opinion. I think it's fair, it's a free world we can think. Latin America, Brazil in particular but Latin America as a whole is the middle of the world like our per capita PPP income is very much close to the world's income distribution in the Latin America although it's very very unequal, it's very similar to the inequality in the world. So what I like to think is about a traditional middle class thinking about the US type of middle class o european and Latin America in Brazil and Mexico etc. but which is in fact a world middle class and I think in fact given that inequality has been falling in most of Latin American countries in the last decade in Brazil still falling. I think it makes quite a you know we are talking about millions of people that that's also another difference even because you may be talking about emerging countries like other big countries and where you know there is a growing middle class from the top because inequality is going up while in Latin America and Brazil in particular there are people coming from the bottom and I think now maybe we are we are seeing some sort of after 10 12 years of this growth of this middle class we are maybe seeing some sort of a conflict between the traditional middle class and the new middle class you know because the infrastructure there is a bottleneck for example cars in the road we see here in Panama City we see Rio in Sao Paulo in Mexico City or in the airports which I think is a great opportunity but so I think there are many middle classes but I think the Latin American middle class is in a way the world middle class now in Brazil the middle class has become an important driver for internal consumption we can see that in the numbers of active vehicles vehicles that are purchased cars in Mexico at least we dream of selling a million units and I think then in Brazil the number is a lot higher than in Mexico yes surely three years ago about 11% of the people who fly who flew were was the first time they ever flew on their lives you know the people who bought tickets so there is this phenomenon of people raising but from very low standards of living and this makes quite a big challenge for firms because instead of targeting the top 10% or top 20% they have to have a much broader view of the whole economy of the whole society have distribution channels communication strategy not only from from the top but this has been an engine of growth I think we cannot only use you know consumption I think the the key challenge is how to to be a production channel you know the middle class the production side of the middle class which is the bright side of the middle class but in my opinion this has been already occurring the greatest revolution of the middle class started when women decide to have not six kids but two kids these kids went to school they are getting formal jobs not so much entrepreneurs as I would like but they are getting formal jobs and and I think there is a a production revolution that's what it makes more sustainable than it was only on consumption and perhaps the biggest test the Brazilian middle class had was this low growth from the last three years four years in spite of that the Brazilian middle class is still going up in spite of the macro conditions from the point of view of investment from the group that you lead I think you have an interesting position do you agree with what you've seen here and how have you seen the development in the region and the empowerment of the middle class so thank you I think the reason you have me on this panel is to perhaps try and provide a more balanced external perspective looking into Latin America and you know I think it's an esoteric question to debate as to what is the middle class and whether it's emerging or not I think when you mentioned that Latin America is going through an explosive growth I think you took a little bit of poetic license because it's not yet explosive growth it has the potential to have explosive growth and I think that if you look historically at development across the world we invest in 31 32 countries around the world so I've had the privilege of actually seeing how middle classes pull countries out of poverty and I've seen it across the world so when we look at Latin America I think if we stop and think the middle class has always been the engine of growth across the world if you have an empowered middle class you have got economic development you have prosperity I think women I agree with you play a crucial and a key role but if you go back to your original question which is what is middle class middle class is anything anybody who earns over ten dollars a day and poverty is anybody who earns under four dollars a day and extreme poverty is anybody who earns under two dollars a day now these are world bank definitions because ten dollars buys you a certain standard of living two dollars buys you a certain standard of living I don't think that you can have all encompassing statements saying that we've beaten the poverty trap and we've beaten the issue here yes in Latin America you have had a very resilient and a very strong progress towards reducing poverty Brazil actually has led the path in doing that but now you have a different issue when you have more than ten dollars a day you could have a thousand dollars a day you could have ten dollars a day the middle class itself is a very broad spectrum and you have different classes within the middle class you have different abilities to buy products and therefore your economy has got to be geared towards servicing the different elements of what constitutes the middle class I think what you have in this region although you are achieving success at reducing poverty what you still have is enormous income inequality and income inequality leads to social issues as well income inequality if you look at the global landscape 10 out of the 15 most unequal countries in the world still happen to be in Latin America and that's just a fact right but that does not mean everything is doom and gloom actually it's very positive because when you see the policies that are being followed in countries in this region Brazil was the first to be recognized and I feel it's important for all of us to say what's our aspiration the first thing that Latin America has to understand is when the world used to refer to us as emerging markets I've always rejected the concept of calling us emerging markets two thirds of the world's growth is going to come from these markets that we populate of which Latin America is a very important constituent so the future prosperity of the OECD countries is a function of these markets we call them global growth markets and it's wrong and patronizing to call them emerging markets if you have that mindset in government you will flow that mindset down to people which is that we are aspirational we're growing and we have a great future ahead of us and within that context if you look at what the middle classes can do the best thing that governments can do is to empower the SME sector the best thing the governments can do is to enable entrepreneurship to evolve and develop not everybody can be an entrepreneur a lot of people have to go into the service sector a lot of people have to provide jobs that are mechanical or industrial in nature but if you can promote the environment and governments let people get on with the job of creating value through their own effort which was a point I think you were making at the outset then I think the middle classes in these Latin American countries actually do have a prosperous future ahead of them and most important of all I think what you have going for you in Latin America which most other regions in the world don't have at present is you've captured or a part of a trend that is actually leading the world today which is urbanization I don't know how many people here recognize and realize that today mankind is an urbanized race for the first time in its existence more than 50% of us live in cities and that number across the world is going in up by a million people a week that's eight new york cities a year now the good part about latin americas you're already urbanized you're leading the world in urbanization there is more urbanization in latin america than in africa and south east asia and because of that cities are a hub of economic activity and in cities the demand for investment especially new cities especially tier two cities is very strong so what you land up creating there for his jobs business big business and small business sms create the environment the entrepreneurial environment for people to have jobs and the baseline of middle class development is jobs actually not government intervention but jobs and the better jobs you have the better it is I've heard government leaders in latin america talk about and boast about in fact the fact that they have low unemployment well low unemployment is not good enough it's the quality of employment that you get which is the flip side that people should be focused on so I think the fact that you're so urbanized is a great starting point for developing a middle class the fact that you have jobs as a result that are going to be created and that already being created is crucially important the most important element in conclusion that I'd like to say is that when you have an environment like that the role of government becomes crucial typically in the past you've had a different form of governance now increasingly I'm seeing in latin america a growing focus that to have development you've got to have governance not just government and in the cons in the in the pursuit of governance transparency the rule of law and so on is becoming becoming paramount the pacific alliance is actually leading in many ways the world in its quality of governance and the way in which governments are reacting to developmental activity and if that process continues I think that the middle classes have a very strong future in this part of the world rafael would you like to add something yes certainly I would like to add a caution note of this optimism with respect to the middle class in latin america what has the world bank said it said that we've had an extraordinary decade in terms of economic growth four comma two percent in ten years a very good wine and Mexico has not done very well in terms of growth I know I open that parenthesis but in general it's been fantastic that has allowed that between 70 and 90 million people to come out of poverty nonetheless what I would like to highlight is that not because of that can we say that latin america is not the region of the world with the worst distribution of wealth that is the situation that is true and real in panama colombia brazil mexico panama and other countries you name it that is a crucial truth and it's amazing I think that we need to have a higher sense of urgency and we shouldn't be confused there's an index that I like very much it's the united nations human development index which gives us interesting information we are celebrating in mexico the 20th anniversary of nafta and if we ask ourselves has mexico converged with us in canada the answer is no barely this year mexico has recovered the level of income that it had in 1994 it was so brutal that shock that economic shock from 94 and 95 that were barely just recovering to that same level of income that we had now where there is a convergence if we use the human development index from the UN and the fact that the index is not only used income they also use other parameters like health and education indexes and there we can see that countries like mexico have progressed a lot in terms of health care coverage and the life expectancy is practically the same as the people in the united states and the canadian one and also in education there's much more coverage so if we see the human development index we see that the gap is closing when compared to the united states and in canada but not in all indexes or all sectors now i'd like to insist greatly on the fact that when we consider many of the issues of safety and security in latin america i'd have to agree with you that what latin americans steal the most our cell phones gadgets it's petty crime this has a lot to do with that fact that that wanting to aspire to be a middle class latin americans that want to live as if they are middle class and they don't have enough money now there's a very interesting topic we carried out a study with the UNDP and we carried out surveys in six different countries in prisons prisons of six different latin american countries and we realized that there's a paradox between 80 and 85 percent of the people in the prisons in those countries which are argentina peru chile salvador mexico and brazil the inmates the people that are in jail between 80 and 85 had a job before committing the crime so it doesn't have to be to do with unemployment but actually to supplement employment and the income now i want to also say something optimistic where i do see a paramount change is in the values of the mexican youth i'm a teacher in the autonomous superior institute of mexico and i am always appalled by the fact that there are more entrepreneurs among the youngsters in mexico yesterday i was dedicated to speak with the different young people here and it's fascinating to see how the latin american youth want to change and it's seeking to do so through entrepreneurship and not through the government and i agree with you on that i think that there's a very important empowerment we were educated in a certain way they never told us or taught us the value of entrepreneurship but now i don't think that we're teaching the young people that they are taking it upon themselves and i think that's fantastic in latin america with respect to gadgets and the theft of cell phones i want to mention that we're doing a live transmission through internet please follow us through twitter we're using the hashtag latin growth so please follow us and there's already a lot of activity we currently have comments from manuel o lano louis to acknowledge that most of the people is middle class es to remove excuses for development because we are poor i think that louisa la calle it's began by saying something like that it takes that black cloud that says that we're doomed and everything goes bad because we're poor now in terms of aspiration also the middle class or that is to be middle class is to aspire something and to be part of the middle class es inspiracional as well now when the crisis of 2010 and 2009 2010 happened the koneva numbers showed how the middle class was the one that was affected the most the urban middle class sector specifically and many people went down to the level of poverty due to the loss not only of their ability for purchasing but also the general income veracruz en mexico for example is a good example i think it was one of the most affected states and also in the urban zones of veracruz the laying down of works or the firing of the people from their jobs led to this condition so we were left at a very vulnerable position does this happen in other countries as well uh yes it does and and there is like i was saying there's almost a historical inevitability to some of these things happening it comes back down your question actually to the role of government okay in latin america i feel and a lot of analysts feel that you also have a fragmented social contract okay governments are meant to govern for the benefit of the people not to rule the people alone and a fragmented social contract means that you already have a low tax base and you have a very low expectation from people as to the delivery of of services by government the issue that a rising middle class will inevitably create is because they want more of everything they're going to perhaps turn to self provision of a lot of these services and that's going to increase the income inequality all over again because people that are in the middle classes will be able to cater to themselves for healthcare for education for logistics and so on and that's not necessarily a good thing when i was talking earlier about jobs i think you captured that point perfectly which is people that are in prisons start off with having jobs as well it's the fact that it's not the fact that they were employed it's the fact that they were underemployed it's the fact that their salary levels are not commensurate with what their social expectations are and what their aspirations are so i feel that rather than constantly focusing on the doom and gloom and the negativity we must look at the positive elements of what we have in front of us we have markets that are growing at rates that are higher than elsewhere in the world we have countries that have great potential and because of a variety of factors take for example the pacific alliance again you all speak one language you have customs union you have free trade agreements with the united states you have you know opportunities that are mind boggling in terms of creativity and growth entrepreneurship is a very important element but so is education so is healthcare so is so many other different things the most important thing you need to focus on in this part of the world and i want to say this in the most positive way is the young people i think you have a very high level of young people in your population the interesting thing that you mentioned earlier about spending yesterday with the young people that i hear i spent day before yesterday with the same young people because abraj is one of the partners of the world economic forum in the global shapers program and i meet the same young people all over the world whatever i do when i'm traveling i make sure i meet the global shapers there is a level of identical behavior amongst these shapers whether i see them in mexico and brazil or here in panama or whether i see them in nigeria or i see them in istanbul or indubai they're all the same they're aspirational and most important of all they're empowered they're empowered because they want more of everything and they have expectations which are high and because a lot of them are entrepreneurs i think your future is very bright because they want and are learning from opportunities and best practices all over the world claro estamos escuchando yes we're listening to the positive side right once again of an empowered middle class a middle class that is also demanding but we also have to turn on the alerts the warnings it's a middle class that can become a social pressure for governance how can we solve aspects minister on these demands brazil is a very young country also but we have to open universities we have to offer opportunities our youth in latin america i think is one that doesn't have much hope when compared to other regions at least that's my perspective it's true in the case of brazil we have the highest youth we ever had and we will ever have 51 million people between 15 and 29 years of age this group is the group that i'm very concerned about this group they have quite positive in a way if you ask for young people in latin america or in brazil in particular give a grade to your life in five years life satisfaction from zero to ten in brazil they give a grade above nine on average and that's serious because they have very high expectations so the probability they get frustrated is enormous so i think it's and so we have to devise and and this group is the door of change in our societies where i know we have a window to see how will be our countries in the future and this has been a lot of change with this hyper connectivity that affects mostly the youth and sincerely we don't know exactly what's going on i think the youth themselves don't know what's going on their parents even less business even less so and governments governments even less so you know it's a big change happening like for example demonstrations in brazil one year ago i must admit i didn't see it coming and other like in middle east etc there is a change demand for an interaction we are in a much more complex environment we're gonna have to be able to hear people to interact especially in terms of the youth i think we have a great revolution i agree completely with my friend there for example in the case of brazil in 1991 85 of the municipalities had very low human develop index today less than 0.6 from 85 to less than 0.6 and mostly because of life expectancy and education not so much income as well but not so much of income and that's where the youth we are losing a lot of lives in the youth we can get even a bigger jump if we address the issues of violence and so on and i agree completely that's the difference between being non poor and being middle class i think middle class is something it's not where you come from is where you want to get is a positive concept that's why i like the idea i just think that if you frame too much in the us standards it's too far you know i mean you're going to be rich i mean if you are middle class in the us you are rich anywhere yes you know so i mean we're talking about wealth not about you know people what people can do so i think we're in in my minister we are in charge of setting policies for the middle class but it's not policies where the government is going to you know like in the case of bolsa familia is to allow creativity is to allow education the provision of public services not by the state by the public sector is a it is a a huge challenge we have ahead of us and i and unfortunately i think i agree with you entrepreneurship is key but there's new rising middle class in latin america the main symbol it's formal jobs which is good news but it's not yet opening a business like in the us no i think i agree i i completely agree with that i think you're right but you know formal jobs are important entrepreneurship is important what i was trying to say and i feel it's important you've hit the nail on the head all of this is to address the largest segment of our society which is the youth right and you mentioned hyperconnectivity you mentioned empowerment and you mentioned the criticality of youth because they're tomorrow's voters and what it was most accurate about what you said is government has no idea how to deal with these people frankly and neither do most of us there aren't that many young people sitting in this audience either but they are the future prosperity of all of our markets but they're excited and that's a good thing and that excitement needs to be captured and that excitement needs to be harnessed and if we can focus our attention primarily around productive activity rather than crime i think we have great societies in the making that's a whole issue we could possibly dedicate one specific table to talk about the latinamerican youth i think it's one of the most important problems or issues to address to see that they're studying being productive and being entrepreneurs but we see that a lot of them are in the streets and that's happening in our countries now we have to be positive right i'm going to make a prediction latin america will be one of the main economies in the world in the next 20 years mainly brazil and mexico the rest as well but due to the size and the scale brazil and mexico are going to be one of the most important economies in the world and i think that business people should think about do i want to be in that economy do i want to step in today or when we're already big we want to step in today that's the simple answer obviously for this poetic license i think was the term that someone said for this to be given we need to build the conditions in order to be more productive what de mexico has to do in the next 20 years is to increase our productivity five times more that means rafael mario and my person we have to produce five times more but not working five times harder but rather producing things that have five times more value and the production of things that have more value depend on the entrepreneurship which is mainly from the youth and what they are going to see in terms of the decrease of inequality and opportunity for business that is the most important thing how the youth the entrepreneurship in the youth particularly speaking they long to see and they want to work to see the balancing within the society with within our regions and countries their success is not going to be given if mexico and latin america we don't have institutions that that respect the rule of law ministro Juárez was a president in mexico 150 years ago said something but we haven't understood this their respect of others is competitiveness now he didn't say it precisely in those words yes that's a poetic license i agree he said the respect of um others rights is peace that's what he said when in mexico in latin america we respect the rights of others people are going to invest in their own future they're going to be able to use their home for example to leverage or to build a second story they can sell transfer inherit to leverage have leverage over their their asset now they can't do it because they're outside of the formal system of the economy so we have to consider how we can integrate them how can we make them part of the modern economy i want to add two comments based on the previous interventions if you consider the growth rate in mexico in the past 20 years and you divided per states you're going to see that there are states in mexico that have had asian style growth rates for example querétaro aguas calientes baja california south and north guabila guanajato all of the states that are integrated to america north america economically and their big success the problem is that we have states in mexico that have a negative contribution to the average growth rate and these are the df federal state oaxaca michoacán guerrero nazarit and campéchea specifically campéchea has had in the past 20 years an average growth rate of minus two percent and campéchea is just like pemex what has lowered the average in mexico is the mexican oil company pemex that's company so the averages are deceiving what you can observe is that the success of many regions and what needs to be done is to incorporate the rest of the country to that growth rate two final comments the sales of cars in mexico in brazil the the sales is close to three million and in mexico we sell two millions and the car manufacturers will like to say one million because they ignore that we import one million used cars in mexico and the revenue from that is highly beneficial for the poor populations in the country to close the border which some want for the exportation of used cars it's a high income or high tax rather to the low class and i don't think they deserve that you mean the the public transportation is a problem yes and public transportation is another issue where we have to emphasize that for example in mexico we're saying that line 12 didn't work right because we don't have enough resources and it's precisely the opposite it didn't turn out right because we didn't respect the right of other peoples i wanted to return to the topic of middle class and simply just ask for us to be very aware to what is happening in the united states president obama has understood that there is an anger in the united states specifically from the middle class because they are the drivers in the united states because people that work full time don't have enough time to meet their needs and there's a terrible problem there and we can learn from that we have to pay attention to see how they work around this because we are aspiring to that but that model that we are aspiring to is not as functional as we thought it was we have to pay attention to that something else is i consider that what has happened in chili has been fascinating with the demand that students have for there to be better universities and for them to be at prices that are available to them and i think it's fascinating and why chili well precisely because it's a latin american country that in terms of this gap between poverty and richness has been closed more and that's why it has happened in chili and i think that's sensational i also want to insist on the topic of the need that there is in cities for being included or inclusive in latin america for example where we have big cities i learned this yesterday in the lunch buenos aires so paulo the city of mexico have 25 of the latin american population and for example in mexico i don't know if it's the case of so paulo but inclusion has been very important to have a a city that is not violent for example the city has um been popular for having less violence when compared to other regions and to have access to public transportation access to the general services all of this renders in this result i think that the latin american mayors have to look at the examples of barcelona por ejemplo la ciudad con mucha conectividad london también cómo han sido transformados creo que es fantástico para ver lo que está pasando en el mundo y estoy muy optimista con la joven entreprenuidad conectividad hay una mujer mexicana aquí me conocí ayer y me vi ella again hoy ella estaba tomando una foto con presidenta pañanito y pensé que eso sería una buena foto ella creó un sitio que se llama algo para los internacionalistas y hay already 12 000 jóvenes de toda latinamerica y creo que incluso el mundo porque a través de ese sitio están encontrándose trabajos y creo que es genial de estos sitios estamos tomando trabajos a la base de daily y así que creo que si podemos tener conectividad y inclusión en nuestras ciudades podemos progresar creo que espero que esa foto fuera una foto porque están tan fascinables ahora ahora antes de ir a la final de la idea de nuestros guest, quiero abrir el micrófono en caso de que alguien tenga una pregunta o un comentario tenemos alguien en el fondo hola nicolás shea de chile un entreprenuero por suerte mr fernández no es como usted dice que un problema en chile es la concentración de mucho de los estudios actualmente muestran que el gap ha estado creciendo en los últimos años lo que sorprende a mí y lo que me he perdido de esta discusión soy el founder de la fundación entreprenuero de chile y por lo largo del problema el main problema que tenemos en chile y en latinamerica es el costo de capital y el acceso a capital en chile el costo de capital financiero para abrir un menor entreprenuero de media entreprenuero es 43 por ciento de interés por año la credibilidad de la consumción es increíble no quiero ir a eso y el ms ms representan 9 por ciento de la gdp 95 por ciento de las empresas de los ms ms fail no quiero continuar compartiendo todo este data pero es verdaderamente alarma y es muy severo especialmente por lo que mencioné ahora el problema es que hay regulación absurda y hay concentración brutal de la gdp y el gobierno no puede hacer mucho porque todo el peso se ha hecho poner en la pared la pared no está en la pared y la superintendencia no dice mucho cómo podemos identificar este gran elefante este gran pared y tomar control de la situación y para realmente hacer algo sobre esto porque hemos estado con esta situación por 10 años y la tecnología está disponible para la innovación el costo de capital es solo un ejemplo pero esto es tan importante y me gustaría saber tu opinión y cómo puede ser correcto es una pregunta abierta o podemos pasarlo a Mr. Nacvy porque creo que podría dar una feedback interesante y también porque creo que la pregunta es muy y los comentarios que hicieron muy acurado hay factores que no podemos salir de y factores número 1 es 10 de los 15 más incómodos, incómodos países en el mundo han pasado en esta parte del mundo así que eres correcto el gato entre riche y pobre es absolutamente ahí y crecer no podemos salir de esto pero cuando hablamos sobre los problemas sobre SMEs creo que esto es donde las populares de la unidad necesitan enfocarse porque esto es donde la hipocracia del gobierno viene, ok, la realidad es que cada líder del gobierno habla sobre la importancia de SMEs cada líder del gobierno dice que realmente quiero enfocarse en desarrollar SMEs y crear un ambiente de enablación porque eso en turno va a llevar a una creación inclusiva, que fue un punto muy importante que dices, el punto es que no puedes tener un desarrollo de SME unless tienes acceso a financiamiento y el acceso a financiamiento a 43 porcentes es prohibido prohibido es imposible por qué no tienes acceso a financiamiento es porque los sistemas de bancos no gustan a las pequeñas y medias empresas y la razón por la que no gustan a las pequeñas y medias empresas es porque prefieren a las oportunidades de enablación de asociado SMEs no son oportunidades de enablación de asociado SMEs son mucho más entreponeriosas, arguably venture capital, mucho más alrededor de la capital de trabajo y los bancos no gustan estar en ese segmento, la única manera en que los bancos van a llegar a ese segmento es si el gobierno le permite disponibilidad de crédito en ese segmento a muy pocos precios, donde eso va a venir, que es un partnership entre entidades y organizaciones como el World Bank y el gobierno local y sin tener el acceso financiero sortido, no tendrás la creación creativa contra el empleo y la actividad de SME, esto no ocurrió. Pero también la movilidad social, pero la tendencia de la igualdad en nuestro el continente, los últimos 10 años se han caído, como en Brasil, el ingreso de 10% de los pobres creó 450% más rápido que 10% más ricos. Y esto, en realidad, es como descubrir las reservas naturales, no, el ojo, el ojo, algo así. Si puedes explorar eso, las personas vienen... Latinoamérica aún tiene un buen camino para ir en términos de combate en la igualdad, a través de una buena manera, educación, acceso a mercados capitales, acceso a asesos, tener un buen colectro, tener mercados, creo que, tal vez, la gran revolución que tenemos, creo que en los últimos años, nos damos el peor a los mercados durante la crisis, esto fue bueno, pero tenemos que dar mercados a los mercados bien regulados, y la calidad es, en el downward still phase, y esta es una gran oportunidad, esta es detrás de lo que es la nueva clase del medio, es todo lo que es, no solo sobre el crecimiento, el crecimiento es parte de esto, la otra parte es la reducción de calidad y es todavía una gran manera de ir. Es cierto, pero ¿cómo adreces el acceso a la financiación? Una habilidad más chica para dar capital y esto es parte de la inequality, capital, tenemos la falta de democracia, alta inflación, alta inequality y muy alta importancia, porque de la incertidumbre, porque de la falta de colectro, y también porque, a veces, la experiencia que trabaja, no tenemos atención a ellos. Tengo la oportunidad de ir a Nicaragua, a México, a Perú, y fue en frente de mí, la más interesante experiencia de microcréditos, en el norte de Brasil. Hay una simitría de información también, hay, tal vez, 100 dólares billes en los sitios, y no estamos realmente mirando a ellos, en términos de microfinance, pero tenemos que crear mejor acceso a los mercados, con colectro, como dice, con mejor educación, con lower crime rates, etc. Gran pregunta. Una muy buena pregunta. Empecé la debate aquí. ¿Alguna otra pregunta para este panel? Ahí, por favor. Como se dice, es muy expensivo para ser puro, ¿no? La clase media, tienen que pagar dos veces la educación. Pueden pagar al gobierno en Texas, y tienen que pagar las escuelas privadas. Pueden pagar, a veces, tres veces para la salud, para el doctor, para el gobierno, y también para la inseguridad, en la parte más alta de la economía. Mi pregunta es, ¿qué experiencias has visto en otras partes del mundo, donde puedes convencer a los gobiernos que deberían ser, en lugar de un servidor, que deberían ser payers para las personas, para el sector privado, que saben cómo operar, más productivamente, y mejor que ellos. ¿Qué ejemplos has visto, que esto ha funcionado, y que recomendaciones darles a las personas que están en contacto en estos sectores de educación y salud, para que podamos trabajar con ellos para obtener este objetivo? Y también, a los gobiernos que se han hecho, a todos los gobiernos, que han hecho, y que han hecho el Partido Protege de San Francisco, que ha han hecho permanentemente el video, que ha hecho el Partido Protege para que este tema sea mayor en la edad, más o menos, de tendido en un análisis más importante, para la salud, cada año más de 100.000 latinoamericanos porque de homicidios, en los últimos 10 años hemos perdido más de 1 millón de latinoamericanos porque de la crisis de homicidios. Y te diré algo, es el estado, el único productor de seguridad. Esto no es para el sector privado, esto no es para la sociedad, esta es la seguridad, es un buen público y como tal, se debe proporcionar por el estado. Así que tenemos que ser smart en lo que piensamos sobre el estado porque parece a mí que hemos abusado de privatizar algunas afueras de estado. Y por ejemplo, ahora en prisión. La idea en México, y eso es la idea en muchos lugares, es que deberíamos privatizar el sistema de prisión. Es un error enorme. Veamos en California. En California, ahora los que tienen prisión, en el sector privado, han sido un gran lobe para continuar con muy pocos los los, para tener mucha gente en prisión en California. Así que, yo diré que no deberíamos comprar la receta de que menos estado es mejor. Necesitamos grandes instituciones en Latinoamérica y tenemos un déficit de instituciones en Latinoamérica y tenemos que ser muy puestos en cómo usamos, yo diría, publicas y prácticas privadas. Para strengar, yo diría, las instituciones democráticas en Latinoamérica. Bien. Bueno, me gustaría preguntar eso. Ahora, solo por un tiempo. El tiempo está terminado. Tenemos un minuto para ver si la gente en California puede tener sus preguntas. Es muy expensivo de ser puro. Para tener una empresa muy pequeña, es difícil de tener acceso a financiamiento. Y también es expensivo de tener salud, por ejemplo. Y lo que tenemos que hacer es transformar un poco el significado de que veamos los problemas. Por ejemplo, en México, una empresa muy pequeña y informal, cuando se hace una análisis de beneficio de costes, lo que resulta es que no es importante tener la empresa informal. Así que lo que tenemos que hacer es creer la fuerza de estado. Entonces, para aplicar a ellos, no funciona. Lo que tenemos que hacer es reducir la costa de formación. Y eso es lo importante. Para hacerla muy atractiva. Así que no tengo acceso a la credibilidad si no hay respeto a los derechos de la administración. Es incorrecto, pero es la verdad. No tenemos en Latinoamérica un régimen para proteger los derechos de la administración pública y privada de la comunidad. No vamos a tener financiamiento, no vamos a tener grados. Lo más importante es que el precio es el regreso de la inversión que va a ser hecho. Si podemos convencer a los participantes en los mercados informales que están en problemas y que no pueden creer la productividad, el regreso que tendrán con esa formalización es mucho más alto que el precio de los intereses que va a tener la credibilidad. Y cuando la credibilidad va a ser formal, va a ser mucho más alto. En la salud, desde el punto de vista de la salud, tenemos que aumentar la escala que tenemos hoy. El precio del estado, el tratamiento chico, tenemos que ser calados y luego es pagado. Pero cuando tenemos cáncer, entonces no funciona muy bien en la oposidad que el ciudadano pide el precio, y el estado que subsidiza a los illness. Muchas gracias y muchas gracias a ti. Cuando tienes una discusión en una base regional, es siempre muy difícil, porque todo el mundo trae el ejemplo de un país como una buena idea o una mala idea. Y los problemas en Chile no pueden ser necesariamente los problemas en Brasil. Los problemas en Brasil con una movilidad social no pueden ser realizados en México, etcétera. Es una cosa para mirar a una región y decir que hay una ansiedad, es otra cosa para ir país a país. Creo que hay una realidad, es llamada países, ¿no? No podemos salir de ellos, y cada uno de ellos tiene diferentes gobiernos, diferentes políticas, algo más enlighten que otros y algo menos. La cosa, si quieres ver a Latinoamérica como un bloque de tratamiento, la primera cosa que tienes que hacer es traer los barrios en ese bloque de tratamiento. Si traes barrios en Latinoamérica, traer la movilidad de la gente, traer la movilidad de capital y traer la movilidad de producto, ¿ok? Eso es una muy importante determinación contra el enhancement y el beneficio de las clases médicas. La segunda es que nunca tendrás un sistema uniformado de gobierno, pero lo que puedes tener es un punto contra un sistema uniformado de gobierno. Estamos viviendo en un mundo que es increíble globalizado. Y estamos viviendo en un mundo donde los países están penalizados por lo malo. Brasil es un ejemplo clásico de ser una parte de algo que nuestro amigo Jim O'Neal imaginó, que se llamaba BRICS, que era un beneficio de eso y se dio el curso de eso. Brasil no tiene nada en común con China o India, pero es clasificado juntos y así se da el beneficio en el curso. Creo que si cada país ve sus problemas individualmente, la única cosa que cada país en esta región necesita es el capital. El capital va a ir a esos países que están transparentes y el capital va a ir a esos países que están bienvenidos y tienen una estructura de gobierno que puede permitir su frecuencia. No hay dos formas. Porque el capital no tiene la loyalidad. Esto es un factor muy importante. El capital tiene la habilidad de ser deployado en el país X o el país Y. No estoy tomando nombres. Porque eso, entonces, es una función de las retras que generan. Latin America needs an enormous amount of investment, ladies and gentlemen, in infrastructure, in soft infrastructure and hard infrastructure. Governments don't have the money for that infrastructure. And arguably the wealthy are not gonna invest in it overnight. It needs an enabling environment. For foreign capital to come in, especially in infrastructure, you need long term thinking, long term development and most important of all, governments that are capable of accommodating that capital coming in. And that's the best thing that can happen for the middle class. Thank you very much, Mr. Nafti, for your participation. And finally, minister. Okay. I think Latin America is following what you may call a middle path, no growth with inequality reduction. There is much to come from that. We need productivity boost. That's a key agenda. Savings, a very low savings country. Immigration to be open to attract talent. But I think that's what population wants, a middle path. Don't want all growth, but not all social. We need big states and a big private sector and good, I mean, to explore the qualities of both. That's what people want and we are in a democracy. So there is like a constraint in that. So I think it's the middle path. Brazil is in the bricks. Bricks, I agree, is a different concept because the concept of differences not of similarities. It's not like the usual regional block that fight for its interests. The interests are diffuse that. And, but I think it's very interesting to be with China and India. I mean, you have 40% of the world population talking to you. I don't think this is a curse. But in my opinion, you know, we are in year of the World Cup. I think the most important group, Brazil, is in the bigs. What are the bigs? Brazil, Italy, and Germany. Those who won most World Cups in that order, please. Okay, so I think there is this symbolic part. You know, that's I think it's what this middle class is about. It's about dreaming, you know, the Latin American dream. And this I think is in the middle class incorporates this idea. And Brazil will be the next champion. Hopefully. I hope, I hope that. Thank you very much. Gracias a todos ustedes por estar aquí con nosotros. Thank you very much. And thank you to you too. It's a topic like a middle class took us to talk about very important topics as a youth. The financial problems said that differences that there are in definitions and the reality of this country. We thank you for and thank you for to follow us in internet and TV. Thank you and to the next one.