 Are you a vegan? I am, yeah. Well, more vegetarian sometimes I do sometimes think, oh, but I could just do with ice cream, but I try and avoid it because they're just... There's vegan ice cream. What's your name? Billy. My name's Joey. Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. As you can see, I'm a big Smiths fan. Ah, really? A minority obviously promotes vegan ideologies. Yeah, he does. Yeah. It's not an argument, it's just a question. Okay. With people with dietary requirements, that's a dietary requirement. My cousin has certain syndrome, it's Pradavilli syndrome, he's what he can't feel satisfied by hunger, and if Toby weren't vegan it could potentially kill him. Is there anything that you could suggest to maybe help me try and turn towards more of a, maybe not a vegetarian lifestyle, but anything that could help reduce his meat intake? Yeah. Are you a vegan? I am, yeah. Ah, good. Well, more vegetarian sometimes I do sometimes think, oh, but I could just do with ice cream, but I try and avoid it because they're just... Is vegan ice cream? Oh my God, yeah, there is. And I got it from Bloody Holland and Barrett a few weeks ago. Yeah. It's been a student, it's quite difficult with a vegan lifestyle because it is a bit like expensive. It depends. Yeah. How expensive do you want to make it? That's true. I've never really thought about the cost, I just always think, well, I could just do this. And I like the fact that bread is vegan, dry toast is underrated, in my opinion. I mean, there's ways of designing any diet to be expensive or cheap. Yeah, I've always found, before I was a vegetarian, that was really expensive because corn is quite expensive, I think. Some of it, like... Really? Some of it. Really? Like the one with the cheese and the broccoli in it, like in Tesco's. For a student, £2.60 is quite expensive. Yeah, I would go for more the beans, the legumes and nuts, the seeds, the whole grains and fruits and vegetables and then add those things in as a treat. Yeah. So with my cousin, how could I improve, well, like try and stall his meeting take? Yeah, so I'm not a doctor, so I'm not a medical doctor, but I would just refer him to a medical doctor, someone like Dr. Garth Davis on Instagram or someone like Dr. Michael Clapper, PCRM, which is the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, like that's who I'd refer him to. I wouldn't make her diagnosis and say, okay, I'm not a dietician either. What's about the dairy industry? Just out of curiosity, this is because I can't help your friend there. When people sit down for this, there's a caveat. I'm saying there's no argument against you being vegan. Yeah, I have seen the dairy industry, so obviously. Arguments against people being vegan in the world, like survival's one, like if you're going to die, you could say, well, I'm going to die. I think if I was stranded on an island, I think I would try my best to survive. Try to find some stuff to eat, but then she started starving and dying. I have seen stuff and it is quite shocking. I mean, ideological before even I was meat-free. So you've seen the dairy industry, hey? Yeah, it just really is. Well, this is the meat industry. It doesn't really apply to you, because you don't. But yeah, this is how they get this. They forcefully impregnate them. So this is a male bull? Yeah. So they're putting an electro-ejaculator in his anus, so he ejaculates. Yeah, they forcefully impregnate the females. Yeah. Because that's the only way you can get milk through. Pregnant animal, yeah. Pregnant animal. Yeah. It doesn't feel very comfortable, does it? No. It doesn't feel like it's worth it for ice cream, does it? I don't think anything's worth it for anything. Like, that's her baby as well. Yeah. Imagine if we did that to people. You know what I mean? I think that's a suitable alternative. This is obviously not an actual opinion of mine, but I do like to joke about the idea that we should do Soil and Green, you know. Soil and Green. Yeah, and turn people into food. If you didn't tell people, if you just, if you labelled it as pork or beef or something. People would still eat it. People would still eat it. Because people are just... Disconnected? Yeah. That's me. I'm at a dairy farm here. There's a dead calf in the bin. It's ridiculous. And they separate the females like this. And cows are such beautiful creatures as well. I really love cows. They're like big dogs. I don't actually like dogs to me. I'm a bit scared of dogs, but I think that cows... Cows are big, gentle dogs. Yeah. They'll never bite you. No, I mean, I have read that you're more likely to be killed by a cow than a shark, but I think that's what you get if you provoke an animal. Well, that's probably because humans are so connected to cows through farming that there's probably in more dangerous situations with these animals than they're taking their calves away and... They are heavy. They're taking their calves away, they're mutilating them. Nobody can look at that and... That's just a dairy cow. How can anybody think that this is an appropriate job? Well, they only work in these places because people go out and buy the products and give them jobs. Yeah. I always... If we had eradicated that, we'd eradicate the jobs. And I guess there's an argument for the economic purposes of meat. But even then, I think... There was a big economy around the slave trade as well, wasn't it? That's the point. But we wouldn't keep it in just because of it. We can't keep it because it's people, because there's an ethical argument. They feel emotion too. I don't understand why people think, oh, but there's no emotion to them. Like, yes there is. We wouldn't have kept the slave trade running in America because it was good for the cotton farmers and the slave owners. But it's killing people, forcefully enforcing... Enslaving them. Yeah, forcefully enforcing people. Robbing them of their right to life, like freedom. And that's what we're doing here. So I don't think the economic argument holds. Look at them. They are like dogs, aren't they? Look at them. They're licking my ear. But as you say, you practice veganism, but you wouldn't say you hold the philosophy of veganism. I understand the ideology and I do support places like the Irish PCA and Peter and things like that, because I think everyone has a right to life. It's like the abortion argument. Everybody has a right to choose. So I do feel like it's a choice thing. Sometimes I feel like, like Mauricia, I sometimes do think militant veganism can be quite scary. People's argument is, even if they don't have a full philosophy, they can say, well, I don't like veganism because they just force it down your throat. So when you say choice, there's always, when we have a choice to eat animal products, and you're saying people should be able to have that choice. I think giving people freedom to choose whatever ideology and lifestyle they want is important, but I also think... I'm going to press you there a little bit, because I could have a choice to be a murderer. I could be a Satanist who takes people back to my house and does, you know, but I could say this is my ideology. I need my choice, but where's the victim's choice in that? Yeah, I do understand that. So we've got to respect everyone's choice. I think when it comes to things aren't going into the realms of illegality, you know, like, a paedophile could say, well, it's my choice to do this. Well, no, you know, the slave trade wasn't illegal. Exactly. It was legal. So I think when we talk about these topics, we have to talk about morality and ethics. Yeah, and I think I don't want to live in a world where everyone is forced to follow a certain ideology. It's like if you lived in a country that was strict Christian and you had to be a Christian. I think that can be, you know, that... for gay people, that is a very instructing idea to... you can't live in that society. We have to have balance in society. Do you think you should be forced not to kill people? Like, you know, like with police force? Oh, go, yeah. Because it's again going into the realms of illegality. So then you're saying some force is OK if it's in the name of protecting people's rights and life. Yeah, I think rights. So why is it different for not being vegan? Because when you're not vegan, like, you know, you're forcing animals into slaughterhouses and forcing them to die. And you're saying you shouldn't force people to be... to make this choice kind of thing when this choice has a direct victim. But seeing in these other contexts, you're saying, no, no, no, you shouldn't have the choice to be to enslave people or kill people or... I guess, again, it's just the idea... I was raised in a world that it was me eating and I don't look at animals. I do, I do personally, but I think a lot of people don't look at animals and think, oh, this has got an emotion. But they do with cats and dogs. You know they have, you know, you know they do. Pigs are one of the most intelligent animals on planet Earth and yet we consume so much bacon and pork and things. And I just think it's ridiculous. Why? Do you think that society and the police and the government should protect animals' rights to life? Definitely, I think there is... I think the biggest argument is surrounding more domesticated animals, like you have to report if you hit a dog but you don't have to report if you hit a cat. That's one of the things that I think, you know... Pigs and chickens and cows aren't even covered under those laws. Exactly. Some people would see like an animal suffering and they might help the animal and then they would go and buy a burger. Yeah, I do think that people do have this idea. It's because we separate things between domesticated and farmed. It's like, you could argue in places like China where they do eat cats and dogs. People can say, well that's their lifestyle choice but people say, you know, if you were to show a western of the dog meat industry they'd be like, oh that's our parent. You can't do that. Would you say that's hypocritical? Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, well you've seen that to a cat or a dog and you think, oh that's our parent. Well that's exactly what they're doing to cows and pigs and lambs. And they suffer the same. Exactly. They're all feeling the same emotion. They don't suddenly switch off emotions because they are a non-domesticated animal. If you domesticated a pig, if you domesticated a cow, any kind of farmed animal they would have the exact same reactions to a dog or a cat. If you domesticated, if you got a calf from the day it's born and you domesticated that calf, that calf would have a name, it would answer to its name. It's like in the episode, I'm going to reference the Simpsons because that's something I can do, where Bart adopts a cow but Bart will still continue to eat beef afterwards even though he domesticated this cow and raised it. Disconnect. Yeah, it was, and I just think, you know, like I think it was really good for the writers to make Lisa a vegetarian because it did pose an argument to people. I wasn't even alive when that episode came out because Linda McCartney's in it and she passed away before I was born. But that made me think, actually, that is, and I just, I remember my dad, he told me a loving story about when he had to go and clean some machinery at a slaughterhouse and he's not stopped eating meat and that, that immediately we sat down and my mum put my Sunday dinner in front of me, she put cunt frail on and then with these cows I just pushed it away and went, I can't eat that. So, that's an interesting story and I just wanted to know like whether you still think, like people should be able to make these choices that cause this suffering to sentient beings whether or not, like, you feel like they should have that freedom of choice but, you know, there's other contexts where you would say, no, no, no, we shouldn't have the freedom of choice to beat dogs, to do dog fighting, to do these other unethical things, but... I mean, puppy farms are still technically legal, aren't they, in certain aspects? You know, you could say, well, it's not a farm, it's just a breeding centre, but they've got our current conditions. There are going to be loopholes regardless of what people do and I do agree that people shouldn't be given this full-on free-range choice but I also think I can't physically stop anybody from doing what they want. I understand that people out there can be a bit, you know, if I walked into them at Donald's and said, you're all monsters, I don't know what people are going to do, somebody could hurt me, I know that. Well, they wouldn't, that would be, because they're so disconnected, they wouldn't know what you're talking about but what if you just walked in there and said, hey, did you know what this stuff is happening? I think, again, people would look at it and they probably would walk away and think, yeah, all right, I think people are still very dismissive of this and I think it's sort of like the argument of teaching religion in school, you know, I personally, from my point of view, I think that should be shown in schools to just, you know, and then give people that you still want to continue eating. Like an educated choice, not just like a blind choice, they don't know what's going on. Exactly, I think if you showed people that, you know, I'm maybe not young children, I think that is a big... Not super young. No, I think year seven, so eleven to twelve. I'm going to stay there for a second. It's weird that it's bad to show it to the child, five-year-old, whatever, but it's fine to feed it to them without them knowing. Exactly, I think, I do understand that. I just think it is so gory, but I think if you explain to a child, you know, if you said, you know, if you took your child to a farm and said, so this is a cow and you could then explain, cow produces meat and beef and that's what did it for, you know, that and the Simpsons. It all made me realise, actually, no, these were... these lived ones. I think I could say to a five-year-old, hey, do you know animals are hurt and they are killed, they're killed for the meat. Because unlike adults, children just look at all animals and think, wow, animals, whereas adults go, oh, but cats and dogs know, but it's fine. Yeah, dogs are here to be friends and cows are food. I've been taught this, they're so conditioned and children are still more pure and they haven't been adulterated by society's, you know, social norms and things like that. I guess you could turn, some people might turn round and use the argument while you wouldn't teach a child about gay people, which I just think is such a stupid argument. I think you could sort of apply a similar, well, it's not wrong to teach a child this because they should be aware of the world around them and what is going on around them. Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, educating someone on homosexuality is like, fine. Exactly. And I also think educating children on what happens in slaughterhouses, if you, you know, obviously, you need to tailor it to the audience. Yeah, exactly. If they're really young, you need to sort of tailor. You're not going to show them a graphic video. This is what happens. But I think when they get into, like, 13, 14 area, when they're already exposed to this stuff, they should be able to... Yeah, there's a kid to play in GTA at the minute, you know, like, and I think the generation below me compared to me are very desensitized. Yeah. I think they are a completely desensitized generation. You could probably afford to show them that they might not even react. Yeah, I agree. I think they won't even have that, oh, God, that's horrible. I feel like they'd look at it and go. And... Yeah. I'm hoping to reach out to the people who do have compassion and are willing to change and are willing to, like, take the power into their hands. I think a lot of people, if you showed them that, would go vegetarian, or maybe reduce their meat intake a heck of a lot quicker than we think. They need to see the consequences of their actions, and these undercover investigations are really important, so... I think the one I want to see more is one surrounding fishing. I don't know anything about what goes on in the fishing industry. I just know that it goes out of the sea and onto somebody's plate. I don't know anything about how they're killed. I don't know anything like that. I guess I could argue... They use these massive trawling nets, so, like, super trawlers, and they open up these... They just dredge them up, don't they? Dredge up everything and dump it onto the boat and they suffocate and die, or they might use hooks or, you know, stab them in the head and they dump them in a big... I've got some footage here. They dump them in a big ice bath to ston them. So these are just fish farms. So 50% of the fish people eat come out of fish farms, so they're just cultivating them and then they're killing them. And again, it's the domesticated argument. I know, granted, you're not going to go, you know, hear bubbles and your fish is going to look at you, but you're still going to... You're still... People still look at goldfish and think, I've never eaten that. You know, even if the goldfish was the size of the cards. Or dolphins are a good example. Oh, yeah, exactly. People wouldn't eat dolphins. Most people... A lot of... Most people won't. But they eat these fish and these fish are suffering here. Yeah. Look at the gills that are expanded. Even though they're in some form of water, they're still... I don't... I hate going to fish markets like Bouncy before we did their fish market and stuff. You had to walk through the fish and meat markets, get into the actual market and I thought, I don't know what people are. It's horrible violence and suffering to sea animals for an unjustifiable reason. Also, that just went on the floor. I don't know how people are like, oh, yeah, but it's fine. I'm like, no, it just went on the floor. You won't want to eat something. If you dropped an apple on the floor, you're not going to eat it again afterwards, are you? I don't see an ethical problem with dropping an apple when eating it, but stabbing a fish in the throat. If you showed someone the conditions that their food was even being prepared. It's not just that they're on the floor. It's the blood, the suffering, the feces and all of these... Like, that's just traps, you know. So that's what the nets do, they... And they just take up anything, don't they? Like, that's a seal. Yeah, by-catch it's called. I just think... Hundreds of thousands of seals and dolphins and turtles that will caught up in by-catch every year. That's ridiculous. I think I do believe that humans have also overfished certain areas of the ocean. I think it's up near Norway that humans have just overfished. There's no cod left there. We've ruined an ecosystem. Yeah. And that's something we don't realise. We don't realise the environmental impact that we're having as a... You know, even if we take the meat industry out of this as a whole race, I mean, I can't say anything, I smoke. And that's... Realistically, that's not ethical because other people don't have the choice around me to... But like, I'm doing this for me. I'd place a moral distinction between smoking a cigarette and eating the flesh of a dead animal. Like, so, I mean, you can start like analysing everything. Oh, what's... How ethical is that jumper? How ethical is that tripod? It's all... I think ethics and morality and things like that. I think that if you gave everyone, you know, if you showed people, you know, how the clothes industry works, how the meat industry works, how everything works, I think a lot more things would fall off. I think the meat industry would be one of the biggest to fall off with people. With the meat industry, it's so obviously wrong to shoot someone in the head, cut them up into pieces and eat their body, because if you put yourself in that position... You saw a serial killer that did that. You'd be like, what an abhorrent human being. Yeah, well, Jeffrey Dahmer's a good example. Exactly. Oh, well, he has got some fangirls, and they scare me more than life. He ate his victims. He actually drugged them first, so he killed them. So that was like humane killing, because they didn't know what was going to happen. Well, they didn't know what was going to happen. I don't think murder can ever be humane, by the way, but I'm just saying, like, in the industry, meat industry, they say, oh, and they don't feel it, and they're stunned. It's humane slaughter. Is it, though? I don't know. How can slaughter be humane? Something's dying. Murder. Exactly. If something is dying, it's dying. With that argument, you could just shoot someone in the back of the head and kill them, and say, oh, it was humane. Well, they didn't know it was coming. They didn't suffer. They were free range. Free range murder. That's what the arguments they use in the animal context. I don't know why they don't apply in the human context as well. I feel like human beings have a double standard. If you do it to them, oh, my God, it's horrible. It's slavery. It's murder. It's rape. It's all these things. You do it to a cow, a chicken, a pig, or a fish. Who cares? It's a food chain. It's humane slaughter. I think hunting is our porrant. But it is our porrant, and I'm not advocating for it, but the way that hunting is done compared to that, you could argue, you know, that's why it's... I understand. It's a lesser of two evils, but it's still... It's still evil. The Holocaust was much worse than your average serial killer, but that doesn't mean your average serial killer is then ethical, does it? I've seen people be tortured before they're killed, and then people just be executed from a gunshot to the head. That doesn't therefore mean the gunshot to the head is ethical just because the torturing beforehand... You know what I mean? There are worse ways to kill animals, and there are worse ways to kill humans as well. That doesn't mean the act of killing is therefore ethical. We always go for the... Okay, from hunting, I just go, why hunt someone down? Why not just eat plant-based foods and do our best there? Yeah, exactly. Like we're saying about the lesser of two evils, I think people are more against hunting than they are, the meat industry. That's hypocritical. There's more suffering in the meat industry I agree with that. I don't agree with hunting, especially now with the idea that it's fine to go hunting with 30 people, I just think that's just... That's insane. It's pushing an idea, like why can't I go to a gig but you can go and slaughter animals for fun? I just don't understand it. I think hunting people is wrong as well. I just kind of... Might need it, no. Depends who it is. It depends who it is. If there's a psychopathic murder out there on a killing spree, then hunt them down. Just innocent people? It's like... I'm not going to use a specific example, but if somebody went into a public area with a gun and started hunting people... Which happens? Of course, that's why I don't want to give a specific example for the victims. There's sensitivity of it, yeah. I just think people will look at that and go, oh that's shocking, that's a porran. But that's what people do with hunting. Except hunting is a sport and it's... How is it a sport? It's a sport and people like they sort of... don't know, they fetishize hunting and they think oh great, hunting is great. You know what, it's a sport, football. That's a sport. Picking a ball around or something, going for a run. I just... I don't see hunting as a sport, I don't see hunting as good or ethical and I just think it is sort of perpetuating a class society. We could afford to go hunting but you can't go back to McDonald's peasants. We can buy a massive $800 rifle and... You could do so much good with that money and yeah, they choose to do that. I think somebody wants to have a good argument. Do you want to come and sit down for a debate? It was really nice talking to you anyway. You've definitely given me some more ideas and arguments. I mean you already know a bunch about it anyway but like... You know some people are just picky eaters and maybe they think there's not many vegetables I like but I am going to reduce my intake and increase my corn intake kind of thing. I do applaud people that are trying their best as well. There's so many other mock meats other than corn because corn have a good vegan range but they also got vegetarian which has got the eggs in the dairy which you want to avoid. So there's so many other amazing... Well Tesco and Sainsbury are mainstream. Yeah but some companies just don't see vegan and vegetarian as profitable so you've got to go and actively look for it and again it's a lazy thing in society. People are like well... Well there's a vegan section in Tesco and Sainsbury she's just walked there and there's... I mean here in the UK I don't understand how people haven't found the vegan section in the supermarket. Now in Asda there's a whole vegan aisle. You know there's always Subway and these pizza... with vegan cheese and... It's as gorgeous. There's plenty of places I mean even if you get a bit stuck I've never actually been stuck for a vegan option. If I was I would just skip that meal in a different place. Exactly. Nice talking to you. Take care. Do you have any arguments against being vegan? Yes. What is yours? Thank you.