 Hi for every tuning in. We started the E4M event which is about to discuss things when it comes to marketing technology. I have Siddharth who's joining us. Siddharth is currently the managing director of MIQ, India and South. Siddharth was with Google previously for about seven years. He's also a marketing person who's worked with several large CPG brands over the last 15 years and is currently driving the digital transformation at ITC Foods. Siddharth I noticed something very interesting that you're a mindful practitioner and you like to understand how these practices change, thought patterns and outlook. I think hopefully once this is over maybe you can give us a few tips because I think mindfulness is something we can all do a little bit with these days given the interesting times that we're living with. Definitely. Thanks. Followed by Anushree Ghosh. She's the head of digital strategy and made at ITC Foods. Again Anushree comes with a lot of experience and Anushree and Aditi both of you joining. It's a good thing to see a lot more women in digital. I think digital was always a fairly sort of limited industry but I think women have taken a huge leap and I can tell you from personal experience even at my company I think it's women who are driving the next wave of digital transformation. So welcome aboard. I mean it's great to have you over here and I look forward to listening to you. Followed by we have the second sort of female panelist with us Aditi. Aditi is the co-founder and head of marketing at Mylene Foundry. Prior to Mylene Foundry Aditi was a part of the technology and innovation team at Tata Suns the holding company at Tata Group. Aditi welcome. I look forward to listening to you and getting inside. Thank you. Really excited to be part of this panel. Thank you. Great. I love the painting in the background. Thank you. It's not done by me but it's painting. So we have Rohit. Rohit is the co-founder and the CEO of Popped Mobile Ads. Rohit actually is doing a lot of interesting things. It's a Popped. It's a Singapore based ad tech company. So Rohit is handing a lot of mobile ads for mobile games in India, S-E-N-M-E-N-A. Rohit your company has been acquired by any mind group from Japan. I mean that should sort of really put you in a sweet spot I believe. Yeah very sweet spot especially it got acquired just first week of March when Covid was just beginning and our deal was about to close. So yeah it was it was a very... So basically it's you and Mukesh Ambani who made the money during the lockdown while the rest of us are still figuring life out. It's okay. No but it's interesting. I mean you've built a hundred people's strong team and you know I think before this you also done some stuff in mobile gaming previously. Yeah I actually I was part of creating this brand called Zapak.com. So I used to be the CEO of the Reliance's digital businesses and we did a lot of things. A lot of them failed. A couple of them succeeded but been in the digital space now for almost more than 20 years. No I think see the good thing about digital is that failure is a part of the whole journey and that's it. I think we learn more from our failures than successes but I personally I mean I've spent a lot of free time on Zapak.com so I wouldn't exactly call that a failure in that sense. And finally we have Vaibhav Kumar. He's the vice-president head at e-commerce and digital marketing and max-life insurance. Vaibhav again is a digital evangelist. He's done a lot of stuff for the last 10 years in digital marketing, e-commerce, new product development, incubating new business lines. Vaibhav something very interesting which I read on your profile is that you've been selected among the Pan India Super 30 CMO honor and you've been called the 100 smartest digital marketing leaders by the world marketing congress. So clearly we are all in August company right now. How does that feel? Like how did you feel when you were sort of voted as one of the 100 smartest marketing guys? It felt great nothing beats a 20% drop in Roa Siaar. Honestly, I mean honestly for me personally it's been humbling reading all your profiles in that sense. I mean some of the stuff you've done you know Rohit, Anushree Aditya and everybody else that I put in. I think it's amazing and you know to know that at least I'm in great company as of today. I don't know about the rest of it but at least for today I'm in great company. So thank you all for joining. I think hopefully people who've tuned in will get some valuable insights in terms of what we're about to discuss and maybe they can walk away with their own learnings. So I'm going to quickly jump on to the first sort of question and again I forgive for being on the phone on this event. So feel free if you have any sort of if you can't hear me properly or anything of that sort. So first question I mean which goes out to all of you all is that so marketing technology is the single largest area for investment as of today. What are the key technologies you are focusing on at your end to build a omnichannel offering for your consumers and what else would you recommend to people you know who are tuning in in terms of what they should be focusing on when it comes to key technologies. So if you can just start that off with Siddharth and then follow up with everybody else. So thanks for the introductions and it's great to know about everyone. Really appreciate it. I think from the perspective of technology pieces I would like to divide into two areas. One is the customer facing technologies and the other is what you would call on the analytics side and what you have it inside your company where you are making decisions. So on the analytics side these technologies would include customer identity, intelligence hubs, analytics capabilities, data lake capabilities so that you don't have silos of your data and then ultimately it should lead to having a customer data platform which helps you having a unified view of customers. And on the customer facing side of course you have all your organic touchpoints and on the ad side what you need eventually is a programmatic way of doing things where you are able to have a full understanding of consumer journey within all your paid channels. Combining that with organic channels you will have a very good overall understanding of how the journey is taking place, what factors are affecting the customer decisions. And just to use an example here because examples always help us understand better. So it's very very important that you know clients build this data lake technology as they go along in their journey and recently we have seen when we are talking to clients we have seen a lot of progress in this area especially during this time as clients are taking a break from hectic marketing campaigns probably and taking a step back and understanding what they can do with their own data assets and we are also engaged with clients in this area and helping them build a unified view. So I definitely see a lot of progress happening in this area and I would say that the most important technology piece would be the unified view of consumer for everyone. Okay over to you. I think I'll just probably borrow a lot of things that Siddharth actually spoke about. Technology actually has been a close ally of marketing for quite some time but more so now simply because you will see a lot of leapfrogging that's going to happen when it comes to you know digital transformation or integrating technology in the core marketing ecosystem so to speak. So whether I you know talk about consumer focus or consumer facing pieces of technology in the form of advertising or content creation you know and we've been using all of these things for quite some time but in silos or perhaps not to scale but I guess what's going to happen very quickly is that this is going to be the central part of the conversation from a consumer consumer facing you know a technology that you're going to use in the content creation or advertising ecosystem so to speak. And then at the back end I think Siddharth covered a lot of it and which is how do you kind of you know reach out to consumers and how do you kind of get a sense of or a unified view of the consumer journey such that you are able to get a dish out content which is really relevant to them and it kind of pushes them forward in the consumer decision making journey. So I think all of that content led commerce or today whether there is a video creative that enables you to shop or an Instagram creator that enables you to shop or an Instagram creator that enables you to know more and stuff like that. So I think that that piece is of course going to see a whole lot of scale and I think the pressure is going to be on market creators to kind of come up with new and emerging technologies over and above what already exists today. The other piece actually is for marketers which is going to be really really important is the space of analytics and measurement. So I think media today perhaps has become like a continuum of sorts so I think marketers don't really or cannot really differentiate between where the piece of content was really served and how did the consumers mind measure move such that sales kind of got generated right. So I think from a measurement perspective and evolution in that space so I think we've seen that researchers have moved or brand tracks have actually moved online consumer product trials have actually moved online you know newer consumer experiences have actually moved online. How do I measure the impact of it? Of course you know kind of keeping in mind the fact that we are all you know operating perhaps in walled gardens so how do I kind of zoom out and see the consumer journey in unison across the different platforms that the consumer actually uses so that I can effectively plan in a predictive manner perhaps and these are all asks from the marketer in me perhaps you know to kind of come up with technology solutions which kind of address these spaces. So if you if you ask me what has been used to scale today I think a lot of consumer facing you know MATEC solutions are being used to scale today which is you know from an advertising and content creation perspective. There are various possibilities in that space that exist. There is a lot of artificial intelligence based deployment that that is going to happen and that is happening but again a lot more possibilities that exist and technology can play a very very strong role there and of course in third piece essentially is going to be measurement and how do we really become sophisticated when it comes to cross-channel you know a measurement wherever the consumer is such that one is able to kind of understand the impact on brands and then make data driven decisions so to speak. So I think that's pretty much the space that I am in. See it's very interesting I think both Siddharth and you kind of spoke about it. I mean we are definitely seeing a shift in terms of conversations from digital heads you know if you should start with seeing it. Now it's moved into sort of the analytics space I think the one interesting point that you did mention was content-led commerce. I think that is one key area which is going to boom to a significant degree. So with those related to the growth of e-commerce as well I mean this lockdown I think e-commerce companies have seen an inflection point just like how you know mobile wallet saw it during demonetization perhaps e-commerce companies actually saw their scale and inflection point during this time. So I think content-led commerce is going to be a very large conversation for a lot of marketers like me. Yeah that's very interesting. Aditi anything to build upon that your point of view? Yes Gautam I think great points by both Siddharth and Rishi just wanted to add like a layer on top of that and kind of reaffirm that we are talking about for example consumer-led commerce we're talking about understanding the customer journey right and when we look at the customer journey the kind of data that traditionally is available to organizations not just from a marketing perspective but overall has traditionally been very structured data right data that you can put into an excel sheet and actually create analytics around it but now with content you know with the content explosion happening you know six out of ten people today sort of watch online video over television right so content has just exploded how can you actually start building the intelligence around not just structured data but also unstructured data so video data voice data and even in case of industrial use cases sensor data right I think that is a layer which is going to grow really really fast and I think it's you know we all have to join that bandwagon and think about data beyond you know the way we look at data today and think of video voice and sensor data as well so I just wanted to add that piece to what Anushree and Siddharah are saying Interesting So what? Yeah sure I think I think MaTeC as a category as an industry is very vast you know it has MaTeC stack has so many pieces from analytics to CRM to advertising to data to social media and so on and so forth but I think for us there are two key parts of the MaTeC piece which where we are seeing huge disruption and very positive changes one is when we look at the advertising technologies I think the whole programmatic piece has totally changed the rule of the game the way marketers were looking at audiences at publishers networks partners and the way today content owners are looking at audiences so I think one programmatic is making the whole piece extremely measurable extremely ROI driven and today we have global matrices like you know from viewability to in target to brand safety so many things which are changing the rule of the game I think the second big thing again again which is relevant to us and a part of MaTeC is the data platforms I think the whole DMP piece which is being integrated in in all programmatic buying and the way DSPs are integrating it is again for marketers creating so much relevancy in terms of how everything on a DMP platform you can manage from your frequency capping to personas to users to whatever you want to do so I think yeah for in our experience in the last few years these two pieces have really disrupted the it's all tech driven obviously have disrupted the ecosystem and is making more challenging and more opportunistic for the marketing Interesting, where about anything in terms of closure on this question that you would like to add Sure Gautam I think I think it's pretty much covered but really if I you know look at as an advertiser and zoom out you know the utopic state for an advertiser hasn't changed really I think in the last 200 years it's been about right person into right time into right channel into right communication right that's been the constant equation for any advertiser for last 200 years I believe right but but I think how the thing evolved I think what I at least what I experience as an advertiser today when I deal with some of the agencies or you know when I am out there deploying a smart display campaign or a programmatic campaign what I realize is that the one view of customer has never been more important than now I think that one unified view is extremely extremely important it's actually it's it's an it'll soon become a hygiene I feel and I think honestly thanks to the world gardens as you know Aditi said we have you know on some of these media platforms like Facebook and Google I mean Martek itself it's going to need you know instead of a luxury I mean for any advertiser who optimize for Roas and with these world gardens you know the way we operate it's really a need and I think is it has it taken off I think it already has taken off at least in Indian digital market I see I mean I don't know of anyone who's right now possibly not using let's say I mean for someone who just starts off their business maybe a you know a double click panel on search will be a big help but but what I realize is that beyond the tools I think what is the most critical part is how the marketing fraternity now needs to learn engineering I think that is a very very important trend actually without it it doesn't matter honestly it doesn't matter you can be the best marketer in the world but if you don't have a couple of good engineers within the marketing fraternity within your scope I think I think it really I mean false flat is what I've experienced in the past so that's a very interesting point and I think I'm just gonna do a follow-up on this question to all of y'all in that sense because you know Weber mentioned the fact that you need more engineers from a marketing perspective do you think that our overreliance on marketing technology is going to kill the creative or it's going to kill our ability to tell stories like we used to with advertising back in the day or do you think it'll become as clinical using you know technology and platforms I mean what are your thoughts all of y'all on this front can I go first Gautam? Sure sure first so I actually don't don't think it is going to be that way because I think all of the tools that we are using is only going to be enabling right I mean just take a simple example even something like a like a Photoshop or a Canva is a tool but it's only helping with creativity right so I think that overall MaTeX should be considered as an enabler it shouldn't be considered as something which is going to replace because at the end of the day and like Weber mentioned it's all about making that connect right it's about who are you selling to what are you trying to sell and that aspect of it won't go away a tool cannot of course a tool can help better decision making maybe understanding the customer better but at the end of the day there is still a creativity element which you know is very quintessential to marketing to branding to advertising which according to me won't go away but would love to hear the thoughts of others so I would like to add here actually and I think it's a very important question especially for CPG brands where brand storytelling is at the heart of communication right and there is very little way to kind of assess the action that the consumer takes because CPG purchases you know still I think e-commerce at the most contributes to say around four to five percent of the overall sales right so it's still a very offline you know communication to sales there is a lag that happens so brand storytelling is is really really at the heart of communication for CPG brands right but I think what one becomes really crucial is to assign the role uh to each of these platforms so for example if it's video platforms a person there is essentially to be creative within the guardrails of that platform and stay true to the consumer behavior that the consumer actually exhibits on that platform there is no point being creative and yet you kind of really demean the fact that there is no opportunity to see that you are creating for the consumer so I think it's it's crucial to kind of assign the role to each of the platforms that you're using and and then kind of you know that clinical layer the clinical layer that you spoke about it's very crucial to generate that opportunity to see and hence mental availability for the brands that you want to really really kind of drive sales for right at the end of the day so I think that's that's where it's kind of a marriage of you know art and science as they say the science here is becoming a lot more overpowering but the scope of creativity is kind of shifting it's not in that 30 second or a 45 second TVC that erstwhile creative people used to win kanlions for it's going to be the 10 second or the seven second creative story that you are able to tell and that's where the true test of creativity actually comes in anybody else who wants to add to this yeah I would just like to you know add from our experience I think historically it has been that you know creativity is the ownership of television and TVC's you know as as Anushi was saying or 30 40 second TV commercials and and and digital is all about measurements and ROI and everything but I think if you look at it in the last five years the amount of innovation that has happened on mobile advertising even outside of video in rich media in for example today on an average we work with we do more than 40 to 50 innovations with over you know so many brands across markets and actually you know it has become seamless and you know four years ago we could never thought that we could run very complex creatives rich media creatives through programmatic and measure them and measure engagement it's now all happening so I think this is the time when you know brand story brand building and creativity can be can happen on digital here and measure yeah I would just add just one more point I think in the mind of the marketer or the mind of a regular creative agency creative guy essentially you know if the the objective is awareness the outcome is going to be a 30 second video so that is actually shifting and like Rohit I think pointed out what's going to happen is even if the objective is awareness or equity building it can very well be brought alive through experiences which are immersive and and on device which are which which you are carrying on a regular basis in your hand so yeah I think there is a shift there actually yeah I agree completely entry and just to add to what Rohit said I think technology is also enabling understanding consumer cohorts in a better way and then having personalization strategies and with these two then it is also giving you a lot of time to figure out okay these are my cohorts this is how I can personalize and then add a very strong creativity layer on top of it and kind of have a very strong you know like an optimization way of doing creative campaigns as well right because the and again as Anushree was saying things are changing and from a 30 seconder we are moving into 10 seconder or even lesser kind of thing but then did that 30 seconder apply to all the cohorts I think that was also a question right and that's where you know a better understanding of cohorts and then applying creativity is I think a better way of doing it so you know in the ROI to the creativity is you know you can get it faster now maybe or you can see the results faster than you could before and more accurately probably no it's interesting at the word ROI is being mentioned with creativity in the same sentence as we jokingly say with our agency gone with nothing beats a hundred bits improvement in CTR nothing right I've been the victim of that so I can vouch for that no but interest me the common theme that I'm getting from all your answers is about the the connect with the consumer in that sense which brings me to my next question where in the core idea of Martek is to help improve and integrate customer experience across advertising analytics engagement and so on so forth are these investments helping at your end and how do you measure this at your end so I could I could I could address that if that's okay at least my limited experience through a real use case see my my advice to my team which is my experience got them so far has been to be extremely wary of the shiny object syndrome as we call right SOS we extremely wary of it because what happens usually is some of these technologies look really cool but they might not be of much use to you actually honestly because starts with what it has to start with a problem right that has to have start with a business case a use either an opportunity or a problem statement and then as you try and discover the solution the Martek tool will actually be the enabling one for enabling tool for it because the the risk I see at least what I've experienced is that sometimes you get carried away as an advertiser and along with an agency to say are this tool could possibly change the way I look at my metrics and significantly you know boost my rewards and then you go in that direction without realizing and that's what exactly happened with us about six months back as an advertiser when we went ahead with a couple of tools without realizing that you know the problem we had was entirely different and we actually needed what we needed honestly was something completely different than what we actually deployed so so honestly is it helping absolutely yes I it helps you make discipline experiments that's most important I think the cost of experiments has come down significantly thanks to these tools from a long-term perspective I think attribution I mean I continue to believe that the most powerful actually is gtm the google tag manager honestly I mean there's nothing that it can't do I mean if you have the right set of engineers with you so so is it helping absolutely I think it if you have the right skill if they have the skill inside within capability within your engine I think it's definitely helps a lot and the metrics I think the lifetime value of the customer or the cross-sells lines at least there I've seen personally seen in the last 12 months significant uplift in terms of the way we cross-sell product categories or the lifetime value we are able to generate through a consumer thanks to the personalization available on acquisition I think we can measure but I'm yet to arrive I mean honestly personally I'm yet to arrive at a hypothesis where I've been able to improve my acquisition metrics through some of these tools but am I able to measure better yes absolutely interesting I'm going to circle back to Siddharth Siddharth we'll start off with you in terms of you know answering the following up on what we have to say yeah no I completely agree with Weber and I in my experience whenever clients have taken the like a basic principles approach like what is the problem and what am I trying to solve and then who is my consumer with whom I'm going to solve this problem I think that is where it starts and that is where then the technology really helps and this is one of our favorite case study you know I just want to talk about that is that this is a big credit card brand where they wanted to understand that you know we are doing marketing campaign for our credit card and they are applying consumers are applying and then there is a rejection rate right sort of 10 applicants four are getting rejected so how can we reduce this rejection rate so what we did was we helped them understand their consumers and like we did a first-party data analysis and then like a classic problematic approach also apply third-party audiences to have a better understanding of their their consumer profiles their consumer portraits and then we also integrated their CRM data and that's where you know that this mark martik discussion really comes into relevance because you need to have capability to integrate data from other sources and then make sense of your consumer portraits and then from there we were we were able to understand that okay these are the consumers with these kind of behaviors who are trustworthy and these are not getting rejected and then that is how the marketing campaign was tweaked towards those consumer portraits and the brand got a improvement in efficiency by 65 percent so so I would say that investment in tools again as Weber said is not the is not what the approach should be approach should be what is the problem I'm trying to solve and then to solve the problem how should I look at my data what are the other data sources which I can kind of look at and then figure out how to you know go about solving the problem and then you can reap a huge amount of benefit if you end up going into a tools journey then that's an ever-ending job and that's not the right way to go about it like um um you know Weber mentioned gtm in that sense anything personally that you use which sort of has helped you the most in terms of martik in terms of martik yeah I would say that how do you get consumer portraits you get consumer portraits by doing first party data analysis which is where you use gtm to understand the first party data right so I completely agree on that part as well gtm is one of the most important tool then the then the other part is what what are the programmatic solutions which you are using because then that will help you to again in a dsp environment you can analyze the first party data document data also integrate crm data and then do the targeting in the right way so all these are available from a dsp technology perspective so yeah any dsp technology which you are familiar with which you have competence on or which you know your agency has a competence on and your ability to again integrate data sources and then solve the problem that is how it will happen interesting thank you anush I think I got disconnected for a little bit um just to kind of come back to the question on attribution and measurement and I think how marketing technology can actually play a role here and I'm talking predominantly as a cpg brand owner you know nothing will take away and I think it will be a long way from the from the you know time when brand track is not going to be crucial or or you know there is going to be an alternate way of you know measuring the impact of communication on mind measures or sales so to speak I think marketing technology actually has been playing and needs to play a much a larger role when it comes to measurement of impact of campaigns which is not really reflective in the path to purchase on this on digital alone so I think and and this is going to be the sentiment that you will hear from anyone which where the substantial part of the sales is still coming offline or it is still not you know directly attributable to the consumer journey that is exhibited on digital so I think you know single source planning single source measurement across different you know across the consumer journeys across different mediums I think that's going to become the key and and technology is and will be playing a very important role there and I think we've seen how the one the one source you know planning tool as well as the one source measurement tool which is Bach and Nielsen kind of integrating the ACUM conversation which is kind of gone you know into an infinite loop but I think solutions like that is going to become very very important because the consumer in the mind of the consumer mediums don't really exist they don't really go to television to view an ad they actually go to the television or to their digital whatever device that they are consuming content on to view content so I think that's measurement is going to be a very very important space where Maatek is going to continue to play you know a very substantial role I just wanted to bring in one more perspective I really really like all the views that are coming in I'm just I was just thinking when Anusha was talking and you know Siddhar as well so I have two kinds of experiences one in the spectrum is a new startup where everything is starting from scratch right in which case I'm using this tool right hen enterprise B2B customers so let's say we started off by saying am I audible my connection says a little unstable yeah we couldn't hear you for you just dropped off for a second over there okay am I audible now yeah right so as a so whatever is right now as you know as a co-founder of a of a young startup all the decisions on what to what tools what measurement is is trade determined by what is the need of the art right so right now I need X so I'm going to get the bare minimum so I can you also do not want to over complicate things in a very very young sort of fledgling startup the other spectrum is you know my time at Tata Group so when I was basically part of the holding company of the of the group and you know we were working on a project where we were looking across all consumer-facing Tata companies and thinking through how can we unify all of this right how can we have a 360 degree view of the customer in which case often you have to go retrospective you have to look at okay this is the kind of data we have this is the kind of touch points we have what kind of tools would really help to give a better view of the customer so while you know absolutely I do think that tools cannot sort of precede intent it always has to be an intent that leads to what tool is needed but it also kind of depends on the stage of the company you are in sort of you know where you're coming from what is the output you're asking for at that point of time so just wanted to mention that absolutely and that's true even for the life stage of the brand like if you're a new or a young brand I mean I think the measurement requirements are very different yes absolutely interesting lastly Rohit anything to add on this front you know whereas you know Weber and you know Anushri are marketeers and you know they are saying that you know the marketeer should be very clear what do they want to use which tools and all but I think it's easier said than done it's it's not very easy to practice we work with more than 100 marketeers from Unilever to PNG to even ITC to everyone I think the marketeers are bombarded and overwhelmed with so many tools in the market it's challenging for them to even choose and and see it keep and it keeps on changing right for example in our business when we run video ads there is a way to measure the viewability I think in the last in the last three years more than 20 tools have come with say that you know we are a better tool to measure the viewability it could be you know so many so I think it's such a so as as publishers and content owners we also get frustrated with marketers but we feel more sorry for them because it is such a challenging task there are 100 things to measure and each thing has 100 tools to measure them for so I think it's it's a big bloody problem and it's easier said than that you know we should know what tool we want but I think it's tough it's not easy it's a big challenge so interestingly you know there was a point made a couple of minutes back about single source planning do you think it'd be possible to have and this is a really bad analogy that I'm giving you that given the number of tools that we have it's almost become like a very linked road do you think we can probably build some sort of a highway that will help sort of you know things smoothen out the process that if we can have one single dashboard that helps marketers agencies consumers to be able to do this all do you think that's a pipe dream or you think it's possible something that simplifies this entire sort of approach to instead of having 20 tools and you know we're about experimenting and so on so for do you think that's that's possible at your end have you seen any progress at all in that front yeah can I can I start on this so I would say that it is possible is it 100% possible you know like the complete ideal environment no because things are always changing and and see the other part is that tools all the tools in the market have their own agenda right because they are you know working with their technology and in technology game always it is it is a question of you know who which technology becomes a standard and and it's it's it's a right thing to do for them right I've been in many technology companies and it's right thing to do very much for them so given in this environment I think what is possible is that yes there are wall carders there are you know open systems they're a mix of tools all those things are there but at the end of the day it is very important for a client to create a like a data lake where you have all the data coming in from various sources and also the ability that in future when I'm doing marketing campaigns I'm able to use my second party data and also augment that with third party data so that I keep adding to my data lake and try to you know keep enhancing my CDP right ultimately you know that is the that is the goal which you would want to have and that I would say it applies to all the companies at all stages right we are using CDP and CDP generally means that you know it's we are talking about the data set and big company and all those things but it's not necessary that that is what we are looking for for a startup for example but the but the point is that we go with this intent we go with this planning and then there are and then you you judiciously evaluate tools and then add in in your system so that you have this capability over a period of time so that you are you're adding to your data system as you go along and with your every marketing campaign and every touch point you have the capacity to you know have that data in your system and then ability to do the analysis on that it is possible and we have done it for many clients anybody would like to add anything on top of what Siddharth had to say so I think I completely agree with this point and you know while one year ago or two years ago I think marketers were not really looking or even harnessing the power of their first party data to you know I mean I'm talking a bit of energy about organizations which are looking at a lot of top funnel communication right so first party data importance has always been there as a digital marketer I think that's probably one of the cardinal principles of digital planning so to speak but I think you know enhancing or creating or nurturing a base of first party data and and each campaign that you run which enriches the data that you are kind of you know capturing as you kind of go perhaps is probably one of the key strategies that brands are adopting and I think it's gradually become becoming hygiene for all brand owners so I think that's that's a piece that is going to be probably the way digital planning happens today rather than you know working with multiple publishers and arriving at you know if you don't have your own set of audiences which are effective and probably efficient in the past I think that nurturing will become a hygiene for digital planning going forward and I think I think in in our experience the CPG companies have specially really you know led the today if you look at the way unilever PNG and all these companies are so efficiently managing data building personas building actually they have become world gardens of their own now in that sense but I think the way they have they have managed and leverage the the DMPs the CDPs and the whole programmatic piece is just amazing and I think a lot of companies should learn from them and and you know follow them in the way they've managed that I think. Interesting I'm going to go on to my next question and this is more from you know it's a little bit personal in that sense how have you used market marketing technology to enhance your own marketing abilities in that sense I mean how is that helped you as professionals in your field and more so this is in context to establishing a connect with your audiences the idea is that you know because because as professionals you've come across a whole bunch of technology platforms and products and tools in that sense is there anything specifically that you've used that has helped you faculty all day today and helped you sort of connect with your audiences so we'll start off with Siddharth and then end that right now. Yeah I think I would say you know so I've been more on the sales side rather than on the marketing side of the things so I would you know I would have to talk about from a broader trends I've seen with hundreds of clients I've worked with in my past journeys I would say that it depends on various verticals vertical by vertical also tools can differ but if I just take an as an example of say e-commerce as a vertical right so from an e-commerce perspective I think the most important tools which they have used I've seen is the how do you manage your website the content management system and your tag management system right and also how you are looking at from an app perspective your app measurement system these are the fundamental systems by which you understand how consumers are interacting with you and the reason why I took e-commerce vertical is because the all the touch point is digital and that's where you know you are getting maximum amount of consumer behavior then and there itself right so with these set of tools you are able to have a very very good understanding of your consumers and then basis that you can do in organic actions as well as paid actions and keep working on your you know marketing objectives and also from there it is easier for you to then build the data system and analytics capabilities which will help you to kind of go into that ideal stage which we are talking about where we are you know talking about various consumer cohorts and how do you you know do personalization and take more actions around that as well I'm not sure yeah so I think on a regular you know as as a part of an ongoing you know way of working with Martek I think Martek is very integral and I think Rohit just you know spoke about how CPG brands are using it and it's not really new to any any of the brands today so I think mass personalization with you know data driven insights so I think using your own data so and you know perhaps creating creative solutions which are tailor made to the segment that you're actually reaching out to to you know nurturing the data and retargeting and all of that so I think it's the entire funnel full funnel planning which is kind of adopted through a very robust data strategy I think that's something that is used on a regular basis it's becoming like a hygiene so I think enhancing your data management platform as you go and how do you kind of harness the potential of mass personalization through creatives I think that's something that is used on a regular basis but from measurement also I think there are many solutions which are being used today so whether it's you know arriving at a digital panel to do a you know a digital track of sorts I think an instant today has a decent panel that one could could actually mount a study on and which is very digitally administered and and then you know you can understand the impact of what you did you know over a period of time in a rolling basis I think those are all things that are very technology based and are being used by brands consistently and so is the case with CPG brand so I think that's something that is being used you know very very consistently by us. Anything that you use personally at your end which has helped you? The virtual meeting whether it's Microsoft or you know that's changed life not enough. No I'll give you a zoom I think I think fair enough I think zoom is a great tool in that sense and of course e-commerce I think my somebody told me that you live in an app you know ecosystem your life is straddling from one app to another whether it's you know personal care whether it's calling for a service or a handyman to you know ordering for even food so I think even in these times I think that's become like a norm to kind of you know probably fall back on so I think that's that's what it has been. Anything at your end? So actually I yeah absolutely I want to give the view of you know for a very small startup to be actually selling to Enterprise B2B interestingly a very very simple tool that you know all of us are using which really really helps is LinkedIn the reason for that is you know when you're trying to sell to a large organization you're actually not selling the organization you're selling to you know individuals within the organization right their personalities within the organization you need to understand those personalities understand those individuals and actually make those connections so I think one to one tool that I absolutely think has helped us which is a very simplified tool is LinkedIn not just from a lead generation perspective but just from insights understanding and kind of figuring out what is the right way to position what is the right way to target right the second piece that I want to mention which is not exactly it may not be called a martech tool but it really helps in the early stages of a go-to market for a company is to actually have a tool which includes the strategy product and sort of marketing all in one so we for example use a tool called AHA which is quite popular amongst a lot of tech startups where it unifies the view you know of who you are as a company what is your product strategy and how does your marketing strategy sort of align to that so I think quite simplified tools it really helps in sort of figuring out where exactly is your product market fit where what is the direction you need to go into are you really in the right direction or you need to pivot right so I think those are two tools that we use quite a lot simple tools but very helpful in the early stages of a company I think from a from a business side I'll give you guys some data points so our platform today gets almost 600 million monthly unique active users and device IDs in India alone we have about 220 million monthly unique users coming to our platform playing games so I think for us in the last two to three years we have spend huge amount of resources investments behind data platforms I think there is no DMP or data company globally or India we have not worked with or invested in to ensure that we make our data so now we have our own DMP but I think eventually we still work for us companies like Lotome, Mobilewala, Personagraph some of them have worked very well in certain scenarios and and we have really used these data tools to and today our data because of that reason has become so rich and the profiling of data that we have so that we are very very easily able to deliver some interesting personas and audiences to our market as an advertiser Mayba, last word so really Gautam the way we've used it professionally is really I mean I can explain it into three separate small parts really is advertising onboarding and nurturing if I was to divide the entire journey into three separate unique parts you know on the advertising front surely I think just like all advertisers we use some of the tools I mean it's obvious right the big media conglomerates like Facebook and Google right they love coalition of data they do not want segmentation they will always push you for discovery platform we leave it to we are the machine learning engine right that's what they will tell you as the advertiser but the outcome become that you end up experiencing outcomes right instead of controlling it and then you are questioned in various forums and you say how do I control this yeah I mean it's like a Google algorithm controlling everything so you end up trying to segment you know instead of coalition the advertiser wants to actually micro segment it instead of collating it so I think some of the platforms on that front have been pretty helpful honestly for us on the advertising side on the onboarding side I'm a big fan of optimized in GTM yeah I think marketers is that you know suddenly I don't need to wait for engineering bandwidth or the technology teams to up their game guess what 33% of the changes that I want to do in my journey I actually get it done in one day and then the engineering team is chasing us so I don't need to rely on the engineering or the releases as we call it for doing most of the abbs now so I think that's been a big advantage for me at least I mean you need to have the right set of people for it that's what I realize a year so we invested heavily on that front but guess what I don't rely too much on technology tech team working on releases for me to do an ab test which is a big advantage I think and the last part I think in terms of nurturing I think that's a given the whole SMS email notification or that entire and WhatsApp for business right all that has to be an integrated martech tool right you can't do without it I won't name the partner but really it's netcode that we use for example in this case but I think without a single unified tool there is no way that you can you know optimize for the number of times you want a user to come back again so I think in the three on the three specific parts that's how we've been using it honestly interesting just for the ones who've just tuned in there's a lot of questions that have been coming in so we will address all those questions once our Q&A session is over we will give all the panelists a chance to answer any questions that have been coming in I'm going to quickly jump on to the fourth and the second last question of the day have you personally all of your come across any global marketing or tech trends that you think brands and organizations are adopting in India anything that you've seen globally which is being used over here across your personal organizations that you're working at or anything that you might have noticed so I can start with this I think there are two things which are very critical and those are the trends which are really shaping the market now so one is you know and we discussed that you know understanding your first party data and then augment that with second and third party data and even within that I think it is very critical and that's what we have achieved is that you have different different data sources and you know you can obviously combine in a DMP different different third party data sources and then how do you make it like a how do you one on one to one do the mapping so that the richness of the data keeps increasing and that's where then the match rates with the first party data go up and that's how clients are able to take full advantage of their own data that is one and then the second big trend which we are seeing is how do you take macro trends also which are impacting you know your consumer consumer's behavior and how consumers are interacting with your brand so I'll just give a quick example so we were working with a financial client and then they wanted to market an investment product so what we did was so our data science team did a correlation with demand of their product with the dollar exchange rate with multiple currency and this analysis helped us to understand that there are you know there are these trends where if dollar is going strong against these particular currencies then that is the best time to intensify on the marketing campaign that is where the demand of the investment solution increases and that by integrating that macro trend we were able to help the brand get very strong ROI and that is something which also would be a critical piece and a trend which will come into play in the in the future in the coming years. Interesting Anushree anything at your end that you're seeing in terms of trends? So a macro trend which has really impacted or opened up a couple of business opportunities for us has been you know following the heat map of infections and containment zone very very relevant to this time so the more the containment zone happens the lesser is the access of a whole lot of e-commerce organizations to kind of reach the consumer so or you know the serviceability becomes lower and lower so I think a lot of CPG brands and I think ITC was one of the first ones to kind of launch it was a war room like setup where you kind of track the containment zones and plan you know store on wheels was an initiative which was launched which was essentially bringing so we have a D2C destination it's called ITC store we try to make like a physical you know manifestation of the same and I think it was really well you know kind of being in real-time tracked and mapped to you know the infection containment zone so to speak so I think that opened up a very large business opportunity for us and I think it's not it's not a macro I mean I think it could be a macro trend but yeah it kind of was real-time reaction to kind of spotting a business opportunity based on what's happening currently. No it's really interesting that you say that and of course you know as an individual and as an organization we've been doing our pressure of pivoting in COVID times and I can tell you and this is an interesting statistic that was pointed out to me by somebody that 86% of sort of helping consumers across Mumbai as a city has come in through brands and organizations in that sense I think the gap that has been sort of very evident because of the lack of policy and of course it is not our job to criticize any government in that sense but there has been a policy gap in that sense and I'm we are seeing more and more brands and organizations stepping in and ensuring that you know consumers are really handheld and taken care of in these times so I think I think that's I think that's one thing in our favor as organizations and agencies that you know we've really stepped up to help sort of containment zones in this time of crisis so are they moving on to you anything that you've noticed from a global perspective that you're adopting in India? So Gautam I think this the one trend I'm going to talk about is a trend which is very much in India and might be globalizing from India and I think that trend is that of vernacularization and as an AI company we do get suddenly a lot of you know brands organizations are turning to vernacular the need vernacular always existed right I mean India always had a need for vernacular but the you know the ability to do vernacular is way more possible now than before whether it is in speech you know just overall content so I do think that that's that's an amazing trend which is seen in India you know also globally but a great trend that I think will really revolutionize the way even marketing is done right I mean we have to start looking at the vernacular requirements of the country and I think that's a that's a macro trend I just wanted to mention is very exciting. Interesting. Rohit? See in in our industry Gautam you're unfortunately all every single global trend comes the next day you know so so because it is all driven by large global companies so if you look at major ability then all the all the major ability trends and tools are global if you look at in target if you look at data so I think which is a good part because the because the the learning curve also kind of reduces but but in our case we see especially in in mobile video digital advertising all global trends are adopted and embraced immediately whatever's happening in the in the western markets or israel or japan or whatever wherever the the tool or the trend is is is is having a successful stuff. Interesting. What about over to you last word in? So Gautam I think for the within within the Indian context I think e-commerce and travel had a significant advantage right they were all they were born born digital as we call these categories right so so in a way they have had an heads up in terms of the tools being leveraged or you know almost creating trends but within the bfsi context you know and when I talk to my friends in pairs some of these traditional banks traditional insurers the way we've picked up digitization I think it's interesting that I hear this never ask again principle you know being pretty taken up pretty seriously within the bfsi context you know where we try to personalize I mean I mean we followed that as a principle for last 18 months now but when I talk to some of my friends in banks and all suddenly there's a heightened awareness in terms of when a consumer is engaging with the servicing app or is you know trying to buy something out the personalization has become pretty important which which I like actually which is a very very refreshing change for a for a category or a domain you know which has been as old as I don't know how many years right banking and financial services so I think that's that's one thing that's picked up well I see a lot of CMOs now talking about it and taking it seriously the other one I see which I'm very happy about is really on data security I see some of a large amount of investment happening and you know being very careful about what to personalize and what not to personalize I think I see a lot of conversations happening there which is very very heartening I mean I've been I mean I know a couple of years back when we actually personalized campaign for diabetic people because we knew those guys are diabetic right and we actually got Roger you got Roger by the customer on social media that guess what you're showing me ads that you know you have planned for diabetics how do you even know I'm diabetic so I see a lot of sensitivity on that front so I think those are two sides I see some really good progress happening in the BFSI category. There was a point made which was on vernacular and sort of you know the multilingual approach in that sense as well anything that you personally sort of utilize that you are and so yeah yeah sure so I think vernacular for us right now is more about organic wins at at at organization level we're trying to create more organic wins on vernacular is it is it critical I think I completely agree I think it's been the part of the great three V's that that you know most of the all digital strategist keep telling us you know vernacular voice and video that always has been critical for all digital advertisers in the current context but I think I still don't see the amount of effort that it deserves is being invested I think we still at least in the BFSI context except for the PSU banks I think where vernacular is not a choice right it's not an option but for private banks and private life insurers I still see vernacular as a more as a hobby than as a must-do right now in terms of the but actually good work on the organic side I don't think anyone is putting their money up there but on the organic front I think everyone wants traffic right interesting I'm going to move on to the last and final question from my end and this is again you know it's something extremely relevant what do you think will be the customer experience roadmap for brands and organizations that you know you are affiliated to or that you've come across post COVID-19 and I just want to add a little bit to it I think a lot of us you know governments across the world and a lot of CEOs have been talking about something called as the new normal in that sense at one point the expectation is that people have to live with you know adjust and live with COVID-19 the other expectation has that has been set is that there is a hope of a vaccine that will come in so what do you think you know will be the expectations from consumers post sort of COVID-19 and we'll again as we will start off with Siddharth and then move on together thanks Gautam you're asking us to predict future which we all want to get to post COVID so I think two things one is there is definitely you know what what we're seeing is and what we are also doing as an organization is that so as an organization we specialize in and you know integrating data from various sources and then providing that value in the problematic environment and globally and in India also what we are seeing the trend is that post COVID there will be two screens one is the small screen which is mobile and the second is the big screen which is the TV and both these screens are increasingly of course mobile already so there will be huge shift and also so overall what I'm trying to say is that there are there will be two key channels which marketers will have to look at which is these two and what we are adding on to capabilities is that how do we help marketers understand the consumer behavior between these two digital and TV and help them optimize because increasingly boards will be asking that earlier you used to do like a 2000-3000 DRP plans but now there is so much of shift which has happened from TV linear TV to digital OTT and stuff like that even the consumption of linear TV behavior is undergoing a change in this scenario now how would you optimize between these two big channels and that's where we are building these capabilities so that we can help marketers understand the consumer behavior on those two channels and then optimize according. Nice. Anushree anything from your own where do you think the changes will happen post COVID? I think you know from an entire marketing and communication standpoint I think we always use probably the art framework as they say authentic relevant talkable the other piece that you will need to now add is probably empathy because as much as you can see what's happening but today I think more and more brands are actually creating value through more empathetic you know marketing interventions whether it's in the form of communication whether it's in the form of solutions so I think that's going to be one of the filters that you will need to probably apply as you go forward when you are actually designing the communication media and technology mix you know for marketing intervention so I think empathy is going to be one of the keywords when you're actually designing interventions with your consumers and hence make your brand more relevant and discover. Interesting. Aditi can you hear me? Yes, yes, am I audible? Yeah, yeah you are so just wanted to sort of get your inputs on this question. Yeah, I completely agree with what Siddharth and Anushree you know talking about I do think that you know it's not bits and pieces it's the entire customer journey that will have to be rethought you know whether it's an end user in case of B2C companies it's the end user the consumer in case of B2B companies it's again the customers are sort of organizations or enterprises but even they have undergone change right if you take a simple example you know events marketing is something which you know is a very traditional form of marketing which exists always right but rethinking events marketing in you know during COVID and post COVID I think it's going to undergo a lot of change not just move it's not just the change of moving from you know face-to-face events to moving to webinars it's also about the entire process around it understanding all the touch points even an event based marketing there was a particular way in which you were achieving you know leads or demand generation or so on so forth how are you actually going to do that in an online world right so everything has to be rethought according to me some of it will probably over a period of time in the medium-term and long-term go back to normal but there's still a need to rethink the user journey rethink the customer journey in the post COVID world overall that's what my my question is interesting Maiba if you can just help us answer this I think it's very important for us as marketers to understand you know that this switch from offline to online right hasn't happened because of a trend it has happened because of an adversity so so it's not necessary that all consumers are as you know easy it's not a it's not very easy for consumers for a lot of categories to switch to online they're good because that's contactless and digital is it's a norm right well they're not used to so I think a significant amount of investment has to happen especially with traditional businesses on user experience assistance tele-assistance very critical very very critical it's not easy right for a large part of this country still buying clothes means going to a shop right going to throw in another part of this country buying life insurance means contacting Sharma Ji from the neighborhood right so that is truth right and you can't change that truth overnight so so a lot of investment has to happen on empathetic communication and more importantly servicing the chatbots have to play a very important role people like to talk in India whether we like it or not they like to talk we all like to talk we like to be extremely assured of what we are buying at all points in time right everyone I mean not all are millennial we have to understand right there's a large part of this country are not millionaires so we for to serve them you need to ensure that you know your communication assistance engine is very strong and and I think besides that I feel you know a lot for a very long period you know for our markets you know relationship between the buyer and the seller has been equally important as the proposition right and now I think the proper takeover because a large number of transactions that happen in this country right happen when two people are setting face to face with one person when the seller looking at the buyer in the idea right and there's always an information arbitrage between the seller and the buyer now arbitrage will disappear because if you're talking to me digitally I always have my mobile phone right where I can start comparing so the comparison would become a new norm for a lot of categories which where it wasn't earlier right I mean e-commerce was always comparison great travel was great comparison guess what loads of categories like where to open an fd was not a comparison point right you had a relationship but guess what the searches for the best fd rates has actually quadrupled in the last quarter so suddenly people want to actually find out if they are getting the best fd rate or not right true opposition will become extremely important along with the relationship I think that's no it's very it's very interesting interesting that you raised a point on arbitrage I think we were already seeing that with purchasing cars you know where we would sort of now go around shopping and you had a car valley that you would sort of go and see who's offering what deals and I think I'm seeing that sort of trend happen more and more and I think that's one thing that's going to happen for a lot of brands and organizations so interesting I think we are pretty much at the end of it I'm going to open up the floor and sort of you know put out the questions that have come in and I let any each and every one of you sort of to you know answer anything that might sort of attract you but I personally wanted to thank all of you all I think it's been a great learning experience for me and it's always good to meet people you know wherein we can talk the same language it's very difficult for digital people to talk to non-digital people in that sense so any place that can gather have a conversation in the tree for me sadly we are not one of those shows where I can hand out hampers otherwise I would have done so but hopefully we can again connect at some point or the other on something interesting that might come up and I mean personally I'd like to thank you for making this happen for me I'm just going to quickly sort of open up a few questions that have come in so this one is from Mansi KG that's come in is it basically is that content and technology are the two big pillars of digital marketing both are looking at AI for better insights and everything some of the big news in the globe have already created a certain percentage of the articles being created and collated by AI you know with both content analytics moving towards automated technology do you think this will be a challenge to marketers maybe I can try to take this so if I'm understanding correctly Gautam basically the question from Mansi is whether AI coming in is going to be a challenge for marketers is that yeah that's pretty much actually again of course I am you know I have I am founder of an AI company so I would like to say no but just to nuance it I think again it is an enabler right to give an example you know technologies such as edge AI on device AI the ability to actually gain insights from the device of the end user can give you data points that you as a marketer could never have access to right but typically as marketers we look at cohorts we look at sort of segmentation more traditional way but imagine if you have the ability to actually understand the insights of every individual user so I do think it is I mean of course it's going to change the way marketing happens but I think it's going to change it for the better I think it's only going to enable certain kind of you know creativity I think at one point Siddharth or one of the panel members mentioned that you know today you may not be able to personalize to the extent that you like to but with AI coming in you will be able to because you have access to those insights and information so I am a firm believer that it is it may modify the way marketing happens but it is definitely not going to be a challenge or something that marketers need to worry about as long as you know they are not left behind and they are ready to take on whatever the new age of sort of personalization using AI is that's just my thought Gautam right the second question is coming from Monish he wants to know how do marketers start thinking about building their matrix that you know with data silos and legacy systems being the reality how does one actually go about building a stack so can I answer this so I would say the best best practice we have seen is that when you are looking at a particular problem which is like a key problem for your business right and then around that you start small and but you also take care that when you are creating so of course meaning you have to you have to basically look at data silos legacy systems and then you have to create start creating a data system where you will try to start augmenting your data from various systems which you are having but having said that I think it is always good that you start with a problem solving and that that way you will be able to get an internal sponsorship and then with that but you also have your end goal in mind you have that vision that this is how ultimately I will be able to integrate my data and you but you take small steps and as you start solving more and more problem for your organization you will get more and more sponsorship and you will be able to realize that vision right in the interest of time I'm just going to limit this to another two or three more questions and this one actually has come in for you Aditi sustainable development practices changing are they changing are they evolving the marketing any place I mean the example that has been given is promoting gender equality saving water reusing do you think that's something that is sort of getting more mileage now you can you help repeat the question again Gautam I'm not even so yeah sorry I'm just going to sort of rephrase the question that has come in Smitha wants to know saying that she wants to know that are there any sustainable development practice that is changing marketing that's helping marketing evolve so you know when marketing is going sort of promote gender equality or saving water using recycling do you think that's evolving do you think marketing marketers are paying attention to it I do think so I think it is absolutely happening and it is not just the prerogative of marketing I think it is an organizational prerogative which is changing the way this is happening so more and more organizations now and I talk you know I talk about organizations at the largest level or even sort of small organizations are focusing on sustainability and the impact of that is it's becoming part of the key sort of goals of an organization right again I'll sort of maybe take the example of my time in Tata Group which is you know one of those organizations which not only focuses on sustainability but also on a lot of sort of path breaking sort of things that become norms later I do think that marketing is closely related to it so if there is an organizational effort if there is an organizational strategy to do sustainability then marketing essentially has to build around it even if you for example take examples of automotive companies right so there is if you look at ads nowadays there's always you know there's mention about how you know there's a sustainable angle to automotive as well right so I think it is changing and marketing is playing a front role but it is driven by strategy the organizational strategy and I think that is essential because it cannot be a silo thing it has to be an overall sort of organizational strategy to pick up key sustainability goals and also gender equality sort of goals and this is the last question I'm actually combining two questions on this one and it's coming from a couple of people they just want to know the top two three tools that you guys are using to help understand your customers and to help understand data a bit better so this is open to all three of y'all if y'all just can just list a couple of tools that will help viewers that have tuned in to understand how do they go about sort of identifying and working with these tools I think for party data I personally believe nothing beats your own data analytics tool here whether it's omniture or a google analytics premium I mean nothing beats that I can do believe that's the richest source of information if used well I mean those are these are these are really very rich tools if you go into the depth there is so much information that you can acquire through them I saw a question which said you know how do you trust them and google analytics and the google panels don't talk to each other right I said a question from man see that's actually interesting I understand yeah but I is man see I completely do we all face it trust me the only source of truth is google analytics that's the way I look at things right well when the consumer the prospect is on your platform that is only beyond that there's really there are pixels working from here and there so you don't know what is right what is wrong of course the panels help you identify cost but when it comes in terms of you know the consumer journey I at least trust google analytics I think the most powerful tool that I've experienced is the multi-stage attribution model if you go through and you try and find out what is the entire user journey and what is the dominant user journey across sources of traffic I think I find that extremely powerful especially when I do a campaign me and my team spend a lot of time at least 90 minutes on on mapping those consumer journeys to understand how a different creative stimuli or a different proposition will lead to a different source you know sourcing sources intermingling and then look at the profile so you know where did you come from what did you do and who you are if I was to break this into three world parts where did you come from yeah what did you do and who you are I think you know cross section best explained through google analytics so I love that too honestly so that powerful yeah so for my perspective it is b2b so we use sales force extensively and then of course download that into google cheat or excel and do the other thing we're going to end this entire thing with you so you better have a really good tool now I already mentioned linkedin so I don't know if I can get better than that but but I think for us again like as an enterprise similar to said that we are also b2b focused and enterprise focused so I think in in in our case it always is case by case we've typically stepped away from from going after tools that are very big or that are focused on enterprises because we are a small company right so our requirements are very very so if it's for example if it's a CRM instead of going for a CRM solution which is which is really big like an SAP because we are still very small we have used more agile tools actually we are using agile CRMs upon intended but the point is I think the way we have tackled it is looking at at what exactly is a requirement and then picking the tool but also trying to make sure as much as possible to make the talk to each other otherwise what happens is as you scale you end up you know building very silo tools and siloed organizations as a result of which right so great this has been very interesting for I think me personally and every student I thank all of you please stay safe and thank you thank you so much thank you thanks everyone