 Good morning, good afternoon cloud community and welcome back to the second city. We're here at KubeCon CloudNativeCon, CNCF's largest North American event. My name is Savannah Peterson, joined by my co-host, John Furrier, as well as our fabulous analysts for the show today. We've got Dustin and Rob. This is all about the analyst's angle on the day. What was the hallway track? What were the keynotes looking like? What are the key trends for the show? I'm so excited. Before I turn it over to them though, this is our last segment of the day. John, how you feeling day one? Great. Kicking my second win. Boom, ready to go. Getting that second win, that dafuk comment did a great day. We got the swag segment. We got the show floor crawls going to happen now. That's when everyone comes in. Is that where your energy's coming from? I just see people coming in. The pace is getting to the energy's coming in and great lineup of guests today, tomorrow and the next day. Just awesome guests. And again, innovation this year feels different. Feels like a tailwind, even though there's a headwind on the economy and the Israeli situation and Israel on the war going on there. This is horrible disruption. But tailwind on the trends. Yeah, absolutely. Dustin, you've had your finger on the pulse the whole day. Yep. Talk to us. What are some of your observations? I spent most of my day with security folks. Couple of CISOs, chief of information, security officers, a handful of developers working with major Kubernetes production environments and security's top of mind every single place that I'm going. It's all about reducing CVEs, ensuring that you're running secure configurations and monitoring, monitoring, monitoring, knowing what's going on inside and outside of your network. What seems to be the biggest challenge within that community? What's the solutions they're looking for here? Yeah, with the amount that Kubernetes has been adopted, it really, then the next step is now what? What sort of applications are running inside of it and then having the introspection into those applications? Are they in a secure configuration? Is there some changes that need to be made in order to secure that? So I've seen a number of challenges in that regard and I've been talking to a lot of people about it. Yeah, definitely. Rob, I know we had a great conversation with Emily Fox earlier, our security unicorn. Give me your hot take. Yeah, I think security is, as Dustin said, it's not the final frontier, it's an ongoing frontier. That's going to have to be dealt with and as new things are brought in. And even one of the things, and we talked with Emily about it a bit, was that even things like, how do you get to better productivity for developers? Well, you have backstage. Well, Red Hat, I didn't even notice that Red Hat came on and was talking about the fact that they're actually doing security testing of the plug-ins into backstage. It never even crossed my mind that you could theoretically inject code into backstage without people knowing if somebody went and picked up a plug-in and brought it in. That just had not even crossed my mind. So I think, again, the hot take from it is there's a lot of open source and there's a lot of open vectors for security that need to really be plugged. Guys, I want to get into the market analysis here. So let's break this down into the market that's happening. What does this market look like? What are some of the business challenges, the business models, secret sauce and technology and then what's the customer adoption? So we'll start the market. What is this market? I mean, if Kubernetes goes away in the background, so to speak, not goes away, but becomes boring, platform engineering steps up. Is this a platform engineering market or is this a cloud-native workload market, Rob? Dustin, how do you see this? Because you got to shape the markets. I mean, I see them as a little bit separate. There is an infrastructure market and I think Kubernetes is clearly in the infrastructure market. By the way, I've said Kubernetes, I don't know, three times now, but I also talked to a number of different organizations today about other forms of running containers in production. So this is very much the cloud-native conference. Still, all of that though, that's the market that is the infrastructure market. The application market that sits on top of it is a separate market. It's a separate line item. It's a separate spend on a given IT organization. You kind of need both and you'll source, what I'm saying is you certainly source that cloud-native piece, usually from a cloud provider or some sort of on-prem. Sorry, this is more of an infrastructure market here? Yes, infrastructure market without a doubt, but then there is a booming set of applications that now sit on top of a Kubernetes, that get deployed as dozens, if not hundreds of containers together, one in production, one in development, one in Europe, one in the U.S., one on a battleship, one back home at base. That's a separate market. Rob, we talked about data engineering being one of those baby subsets. What is this market and you agree with Dustin? Yeah, I think Kubernetes seems to have won, right? I think from that infrastructure layer, I think where there's still, this is cloud-native and I think it's those pieces on top that make Kubernetes work. You look at things like mesh, service mesh and things of that nature which we haven't talked about yet today. And actually, there's competing, I guess you could say projects in that space. There's competing projects in the data mesh space. There's competing projects in all of these different spaces and I think that we're starting to see some winners come out and I think there's still some winners to be declared, but Kubernetes is, I think one, I think it's how do you make Kubernetes enterprise has been another theme that we've been hearing today which make it enterprise and make it easy. It's interesting because like cloud-native, I asked the question because it's a good question. What is this, right? So it spans multiple things. We talk about developers, low-code, no-code, JNAI comes in, app developers are doing their thing. Platform engineers are enabling a platform so that they could enable them to be more productive. That's an app market. Then you've got the platform engineering which is like the new IT, then you've got the source. I think this has created a market. If you walk the show floor here. I totally agree with you. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, keep going. Yeah, I can tell you walk the floor based on the swag segment that we just had. You've seen a number of these startup mid-sized growth companies even into some of the large public companies. There are multiple markets that have been created by putting the hard work of data centers and infrastructure aside, that being a solved problem for a number of incumbent winners on the cloud hosting. Now there's this explosion of applications that can just run when you can take for granted infinitely scalable storage, scalable networking, scalable compute. We haven't even said AI yet, but the special processors. Well, which is a huge part. There you go. All right, so this is our generational shifts, Savannah. We've been talking about this is a new model emerging on top of an already evolving mainstream open source market, Dustin. Again, this is, comes back to open source full circle. No, it totally doesn't. I mean, we talk a lot. I mean, we're Silicon Valley brats and we talk a lot about the funding ecosystem right now and I'll speak for myself. You should boss it off. But you and I in particular, I mean, we live there now and point being, we talk a lot about the funding ecosystem drying up. You've got companies here raising large rounds, large up rounds, which I think says a lot. I mean, Chronosphere closing their series, C, $150 million. This is serious capital going into exactly what you're talking about there. I think that's a super compelling point. Yeah, business models. Okay, sorry. I was just saying, I'm glad you came back to the venture capital and the investment angle. There are some investors that like to invest in a established market and there are others who love to go and carve out their space in a market that's just being created. And I think you're getting quite a bit of, we've seen that evolution and you're getting quite a bit of that here. I'm sorry, John, go ahead. Well, this comes back to the business model of this market because it's a new market. It's kind of evolving. It's moving fast. AI is going to make it, I think it will give it some shape. Data engineering is one. What's the technology business model like? Cause we heard a lot about the Hashi Corpse move. We talked about that last time, Dustin on theCUBE. We talked about the success of Mongo in the past with similar approach. Open source is still open source. How is this company going to make money? You have a melting pot of diversity of input. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of it and having been in the open source world and I know you've been there as well, I think when you start to look at it, the business model, the open source needs to be good enough that you have a community. I think community is the key around it of either users and or developers who are contributing back into it. And then I think it goes beyond that, that you build your value that's your business model on top of that so that you actually can proceed to make money and be an operating viable company. I had this discussion with Tristan, who's the CEO of DBT Labs, last week on how he's very firmly saying, hey, we're staying Apache. And we're a commercial company selling DBT Cloud. And it was really interesting. I wrote it up last night and I think part of how you look at it is they're talking about how they're standing on the shoulders of others who've come before them, not necessarily Hashi, who decided they're not in, actually, I give their CEO credit. He's said multiple times they are not an open source company anymore. And I think that to his credit, he understands how the company's evolved once it became a public company. And at least you're communicating clearly and not trying to be something you're not. If there's anything an open source community doesn't like is when you pretend to placate them. Guys, one of the things that come up with American Airlines, one of the end user customers on theCUBE today, just now, the complexity, guys, is a huge problem. So if this transformation of modernization of IT, whatever you call it, platform engineering, this new market's evolving, these are large, complex infrastructures that are going to be enabling kind of almost an abstraction behind the curtain under the hood, things like that we talk about. If it's going to be a transformation of this kind of complexity, there's got to be some tech under the hood. And then what does the apps look like on top? This is a big problem, complex systems. But I think that's where the business models come in. And I think that's where people are going to make their money is how do you make something that's super complex or very dev? I need a dev to make my devs productive. Like if I need devs to work on backstage and I have to have a team of devs for backstage, that's how, what's the ROI on backstage? And I think that's why there in their community and Spotify and others, Red Hat, VMware, Cisco, are all contributing in there to make it easier going from 70 steps to install to three. Right. So this is where I think I'll credit the Linux Foundation, Cloud Native Foundation and so forth. You mentioned investing your devs into backstage, which is a product, it's very much a product. And a good product. I've heard a lot about it here just today. There's another piece though, which is, this incredible set of projects that are part of the Linux Foundation and under the Cloud Native umbrella. And I think largely what I've seen is people feeling like they can get invested in their own skill set with projects that are part of that open source foundation with a little bit of insulation away from what might happen if someone takes one of those commercial products and our open source products and changes the rules, changes the license. And so that's I think a really important role that the foundations play here. Totally agree. So I want to ask you guys all the one question for all of us to talk about is, when you have these market shifts, the old way makes way for the new way. So old way was that way, and now the new way is the new thing. What is the old and new? As we look at this market here, we look at swag, we just talk about swag and other things. How people go to market, the team formations, how they're funded. AI's right here coming with a tailwind. The economy will kick up. What's new? What goes away? And what of the old way stays into the future? Whether that's data. We talked about data being valuable, data exhaust turns into with Genervai or value. So what's going to change if Genervai comes in, accelerates platform engineering, which accelerates the white spaces that get filled in with glue layer or products, new models emerge. What goes away and what stays? I think, I'm happy to go first, since we're taking you. So one of the things that I think we'll see maintain a theme throughout all of this is community. We talked about it with Emily. The biggest thing that all of these companies and projects here at CNCF need is more collaborators. So I do think that this will still be a community driven thing. As you said, the business model is sometimes coming after that community fervor and that proof of market fit essentially through that initial community adoption in the open source community. I don't think that's going anywhere. One of the things that I think we're really going to see and particularly at this incredible juncture when the hype and excitement could not be higher particularly around a, like we were talking about it's the new internet, it's a wild statement to say but that came up on the show today. And I think what we're going to see here is exactly some of the conversations we've had. A lot more collaboration between very large players in the game and some super smart strategic little guys that can help them that can not only keep building without worrying about funding in the same way cause they've got a big partner but also be able to drive those solutions forward at an enterprise level that I think is going to be really. We had a one statement just on that point. Devs and ops going to lunch together and dinner. Yeah. Yeah. Which shows the collaboration synergy. No, 100%. I mean it sounds little but I think we're going to have a lot more. And the thing that's going to have to stay actually I am just going to put my stake in the ground on this one. We cannot have the same people creating our AI future that have created our technology past. It's not diverse enough. We don't have enough safeguards in place. And we talk about the ethics of AI and whatnot but it's beyond ethics. You don't know what you don't know. You don't even, you're not even aware of your biases unless you have the right diversity of thought in the room and the right diversity of thought helping train these models. So that has to be what changes moving forward. I think that will change. I think that's going to, democratization is going to make that happen. That's the new way. Dustin, what's your take new old? What stays? You know, I would draw the analogy of course it's probably even tried at this point but to compare the old racking and stacking to just, you know, allocating compute resources in the cloud to dividing up those compute resources into tinier slices and segments that's all old way and new way. You know, and those things used to be hard and they're not anymore. With the DJ right behind us here. Yeah, that's not distracting at all. That's good swag right there. We mentioned that keep cons always a really good time and we're not kidding. How often do you see a portable DJ? I believe that actually blows bubbles. Noah was telling me, but he's just cruising around. We had Ford. This is a mobility DJ y'all. I bet that thing is powered by Kubernetes. What do you think? Absolutely. I think there's some sort of absolutely. He just disrupted just Dustin's amazing comment. Go ahead. Well, good. I hadn't got to yet. Dustin, go ahead. The old and new. Right now it's really hard to extract insights from data. It's possible. You can allocate. You can, you know, run your models and then train those models and then derive insights. But that's, there's a lot of work to do that. I think the, I think what gets easier over time is extracting insights from data and that becomes almost as it's hard to imagine but almost becomes a second nature as you know, allocating a workload to a machine or to a VM or to a container is today. Rob, new old. Yeah, I mean, I think it's when you see where things are going. I mean, we've had so many people on today. I think it's the fact that people are leaning into Kubernetes and microservices. It is the future. I think how applications, you know, we had American Airlines on like we were talking about. We had Ford on. These are not companies that go lightly into these new technologies. And I think what's going by the wayside is the traditional development models are finally dying out. And I think Kubernetes is going everywhere. I mean, hell, it's on the mainframe in some cases. Awesome. Well, my take would be just to kind of wrap up and say what old, the old stuff that's working stays and goes into the new. The data that wasn't used goes into the new and becomes useful. Everything else gets thrown away. And the new thing was culture, creative, community and the talent and the diversity comes in. I think you're going to see new business models, new apps, everything gets refactored. Because if you look at what you say about the data, every application gets refactored. But you got to, you can keep what you want. And put a wrapper around it, put a container around it. Unintended. Exactly, you know. So, super exciting. Yeah, it is really exciting. I am very excited to see what the rest of the show has to hold. I'm sorry we won't have you, Rob, but thank you so much for your insights this week. It was fun today. It was good. So I'm glad I got a swag segment in and got to see the giraffe, even though it looks like Pokemon, but whatever. I know, I know, I know, I know. I'm sorry you won't be here for the space beavers and the socks tomorrow, but we'll miss you. We'll have to see you in Paris. I'm glad the feet are not my thing. That's like not my cup of tea, so. Okay, Rob, you tell us whatever you want to tell us, bro. We'll check that browser history, but I don't know if you're going to ask the kids. Dustin, I look forward to another exhilarating day with you. Let's do it. John Furrier, it's always a pleasure. Thank you for letting me be a little ratchet out here all the time. And thank you all for tuning in today. One's coverage of KubeCon, CloudNativeCon here at CNCF's largest North American event. We love being here. My name is Savannah Peterson. You are watching The Cube, the leading source for technology news.