 Thank you and good evening ladies and gentlemen, good evening fellow panellists. Thankfully with none of the gentlemen on stage do I have to stand on formality. But it's mighty disturbing that in a week or a fortnight when Mitu is the flavour of the season, this is mansplaining at its worst. So I have a specific message for the ladies in the audience, please boo us frequently. I think the men need to be shown their place. I will try my darnedest but I wouldn't mind having some help. Sam is already smiling. Sam, you can provoke other people to smile along with you. Gentlemen on the stage, good evening and welcome and always good to meet all of you. We can banter substantially later. The problem today is we are up against a 45 minute deadline, which is not a hell of a lot of time to have six fine intellects, extremely capable speakers, extremely articulate men on stage with me. It's now four minutes shy of eight. So we have to finish four minutes shy of 8.45. So we have to kill this by 8.41. I'm really, really hoping that considering that some of the most senior people in the industry are here, we can try to walk away with at least a tiny blueprint of what such a thing might look like. I don't think we can write out a prescription, but let's at least try to get to maybe two, three things that could possibly look like a framework for it. And Ajay, you are the one client on stage. There are two broadcasters and three agency heads and there is a zero moderator. So you've got zero, one, two, three right there. So I'm going to start with you. And as there were some people saying you're the wrong kind of client to have here because the way that you work with agencies is somewhat different, but I'm going to ask you to sort of pretend to be the typical client rather than Ajay the client and take it in that spirit. So here's my first question. You know, back when I started working there was a notion, when I was a brand manager in 1985 there was a notion, Vicky remembers this because he joined soon after, we took the agency relationship very seriously as in it was a custodial relationship for a brand and it was a joint custody, it was a partnership and this was taken really, really very seriously. So the one aspect of that that was extremely important was that these were durable relationships. I mean, I have Shashi here on my right who continues to be an account executive on a brand that he started servicing some zillion years ago for which he keeps going to Gujarat every month, right? Nothing has changed. Amul is still his client much the same as it was when it was an integrated agency. He treats it like his same way, in the same way. Durability of relationships was a big deal. What is it that has happened in your mind that such partnerships don't endure anymore? I mean, why is it that clients feel that they can, you know, sort of cherry pick month on month or week on week or year on year and there's a flavor of the season this year and another flavor next year? I represent the financial services business and we are known for risk factors, so I'm qualifying with a risk factor. I'm not speaking about anyone to my left, I'm not speaking to anyone about my right, I'm not speaking about anyone in the audience. But when we grew up, we always heard our parents say, our times were like this. I think the people in this panel have reached a point where we can also say, our times were like this. That was not the right time. So if you say that my parents lived together happily for 25 years, 30 years, 50 years, 55 years, that was not the right time. So even if you look at the relationships you're talking about, think people have become more promiscuous, people have become more fickle, people have become more demanding, less accepting, blah, blah, blah, blah. So it's representing the social environment. I remember growing up seeing the corks of the world as the most loyal agency client partnerships. They don't exist today. I've heard and can the cork CMO saying openly, I'm happy to give projects to anyone and everyone. So I think the problem is possibly both sides. And since I've represented both sides, let me admit that who starts delivering first? The agency side will say you don't pay me enough and the client will say I don't get enough. So I think you both have to accept what is it that you're paying for and what is it that you're asking for? If you decide what the media agency delivers, I think promiscuity may not be as prevalent as it is today. I don't think there's an agreement on what is it that I expect and what is it that you're delivering. Okay, so this promiscuity you are saying arises from heightened expectations. So those expectations must be quantifiable. So what is the kind and you know, for a moment, let's step aside from media agency. I want to, you know, make it a little agnostic. Think of the other service providers, think of the market research agency, think of your creative agency, think of your digital agency. What are the kind of metrics that are in your mind when you decide that your partner is in fact firing for your brand? How do you know that it's happening? So if I wear a client hat, I only have three metrics that immediately come to mind. My top line, my bottom line and my number of valued customers. The problem I face is that none of the partners you mentioned speak this language. None of these partners are happy to own my KRS. I'm not sure how many partners know what a client's KRS are. And as I said in the asterisks, when I say mine, I mean ours. No, no, obviously. Not mine. I get that. So I think that's the problem. We all come with what we have to offer, not what the client needs. So I'll end it with one small example of my industry. My industry is very full of itself and we believe that everyone wants a car loan. We believe everyone wants a house, a home loan. The fact is nobody needs a car loan. Nobody needs a home loan. They want a home or a car. The loan is a necessary evil. As long as the partners realize that we are here to deliver business results, now let's see what do we deliver? How do I contribute? I think the relationship will be very different. Vikram, that's an interesting point he makes, that the service industry is unfamiliar with the tasks that the client is up against and that the language that the service industry speaks therefore is alienating and not collaborative. Is this an allegation you are willing to accept? To an extent, yes. Look, it's okay. I'm just going to back up for a sec. Between strategy and price, strategy is hygiene and price is the determining factor when a decision is taken to give business to an agency or not. Now why is that happening? Is it because the metrics are not in place? Possibly. Do we not understand their business well enough? Possibly. But I think somewhere along the line, I think we are still known as media buyers. We are not known as marketing investment managers. And if I use the word marketing investment managers in this group out here, you think they're talking about some alien thing, not media agencies. And I think that's fundamental. As long as our brand stays out here, buyers, that's what's going to be the final stuff on which you're going to be right now evaluated. Is that right? No, it's not right. So how do we move to a place where it can become better? I think we have to now to what Ajay is also saying. We've got to agree on the outcomes that actually media can deliver. And then we can tell them, listen guys, is top line better? Is saving bottom line better? Those conversations aren't happening. So I agree with Ajay to the extent that outcomes need to be defined and then need to be more important than the saving. Raj is getting impatient about saying something. I'm getting impatient because he said there are 45 minutes and I don't want to waste the topic going round and round. No, obviously. I want to come straight to the point. First of all, I disagree with Ajay. Okay, you are a car maker, what will the advertising person do? How can you hold him responsible for the top line and bottom line? I mean, that's not the job of an advertising agency. Okay. At the same time, media agencies, again. And I think because I know the reason why this panel was put from what I heard from the host is that Puneet Gowenkar's letter to all the agencies saying, you know, don't pitch. And I think that is the crux of the issue. And I think we all want to be politically correct. Nobody want to address it. My thing is, and that is the bone of contention that exists today, agencies are going out and pitching to clients saying, we will get you 20% lower than what you were getting earlier. Now there's another monster who's come. I don't want to name them. But two, three audit agencies who are going and telling the clients, put pressure on your agency, shift the agency if they can't give you another 30%. That is the issue. Okay. And that's why I said, you know, I was the person who said, you are the wrong client to be on this table. My thing is, and I'll give you specific examples. Cadbury says an example. The account moved from Madison, went to Denso, both are sitting on this table. From 1st of January it will be with another agency. What has the client benefited? First, two, if you're saying 20% discount you will get year on year on year. At some point broadcasters will have to give their spots at zero value. The yield has come down year on year. Agencies are not making money. And that is my question. I've got some distinguished people on this panel here and all big agencies. Okay. And my question is, hey, how are you accepting this mandate from your clients? Okay. Why are you going and promising it? I know of agencies who have returned money to their clients. They are going and pitching businesses and then returning money to the client. I mean, what kind of a business is this? You're not only killing your business, you're killing the broadcaster's business. And that is my issue. Raj, I think that's why I just thought I'll bring it. No, no, no. Fantastic. And, you know, since you've dragged it, kicking and screaming into the center of the room, now I'm going to continue on this particular line of reasoning. Years and years and years ago, Sam, who I have acknowledged and credited with this particular quote, it was only three of us on the stage, Chintamani, you and me, at Fiki Frame some dozen years ago. Sam said those potatoes belong to you. You decide what you want to sell them at. It's his job to deliver potatoes to the guys who make chips out of them. But you, Ashish, you guys own the potatoes. Now, when an agency comes to you and says that this is what they are going to pitch with, why is it that you are, why are you even responding? I mean, if somebody from your team shows up on your doorstep, Ashish, let me ask you this. When somebody in your team shows up at your doorstep and says that the agency has to pitch right now and they have asked for 15% less, what will you do? I think it's a very good question you asked. We can't blame one here. No, no, partner, I'm blaming you now. I'm asking you as a net of business that if a client has asked, agency has agreed, ultimately it is my product which I am selling, and if I don't agree, they both fail. So as a broadcaster somewhere also, overall as a community I'm saying, we are also at fault by fueling that fire. And obviously there are certain circumstances where all of us would have somewhere or the other, probably would have accepted certain such kind of circumstances. So just saying that client is for to be blamed or then the agency is to be blamed or then the broadcasters to be blamed, I think we are all taking part in it. It's a demand supply situation. The business and the broadcasting business or the communication business itself has fragmented so much that everybody is earning for that last rupee. So in that, you know, anxiety, we are all looking forward to give that discount. But I mean, I won't speak for myself right now. I'm giving you a general, you know, overview of what the business is here. Even if there are four to five big broadcasters who say no, there are tons of channels which are still available, can probably make certain plans go, you know, and deliver what an agency is wanting for the client. However, as I said, obviously the whole process starts from the client and then goes on to the broadcaster or the publisher or the digital agency, whichever. Ashish, let me interrupt you. You know, the buck stops somewhere, right? Somewhere along the line, somebody in the organization, and I'm now talking about the sellers, so therefore you, Raj and people like yourselves, somewhere it comes to your desk and it's your question to answer. Is this something that I'm going to be able to support? Or am I not? Shall I answer? Of course. We're living in an ecosystem. I mean, we are the same people who do business with each other day in and day out. And it's not that it's the only business from a particular agency. The reason we are sitting here collectively today is because it's not a broadcaster problem. It's not an agency problem, because I sometimes shudder to think how Vikram, Ashish and Sashi run their business because they have to give... First of all, they work on a miniscule commission. I don't know how they work on that commission in the first place. Then they are supposed to give their... Even if they earn some incentive, volume incentive, they are supposed to give that back to the agency. And then there is an audit of the whole proceedings. Right now, the way it works, to a certain extent, some businesses we don't take. Let me tell you, I can name clients here on this table whose business we have said we will do without you. We can live without you. And I'm sure Ashish has done the same. Yes. And Starr and Sony at different points of time, different people have done the same. It's not that we haven't done. But we are all collectively in this. We have a relationship. So at this moment, we help out each other saying, listen, at this moment, it is a crisis situation for the industry. It's not a crisis situation, but load star or thing. It's an industry situation and the industry has to come together to address it. Otherwise, and correct me, I would like to ask Ashish Vikram or Sashi to contradict me if I'm wrong. The industry has to come together to sort this out. So since you know this, the elder statesman on the stage is Sashi. So he now has to actually get on to this one. Sashi, you know, we get to a point. He's the Vishma Pitama. Yeah, he's been writing on a, he's been wearing crowns of thorns. He's been lying on beds of arrows. And I know of many of them. So I can vouch for that. But Sashi, since you've seen this over a long period of time, in a sense, Raj puts everybody in the dock. He's saying that the entire value chain is in the dock. But the problem is that somebody has to snap out of it, right? Who snaps out of it? Who calls this bluff? So I'll first say this, that it's a cute problem. I think probably Raj is the only one who's called it out as cute as a problem it is. And I'm happy to report that when we're doing this panel discussion, it's a great time. I think what IBF has done, broadcasters have done, saying, giving kind of a guideline, saying that agency should not discount. I'm told INS has also done the same. And I must give credit to our new chairman of 3SFI, Ashish, who's here, who's also spearheading this entire movement to ensure there's consensus amongst agencies. There are many checks and balances. There are global pitches, global clients. How do you do it? But the level to which it is dropped, I don't want to say everything in the public forum, but the level to which it is dropped, where global pitches consultants come in and then they ask channel-wise, program-wise rates, to stop, we have to give it time. Some correction already being made. There was a pitch recently where I sent in, we may win the business, we may lose the business. We sent in the IBF and INS guidelines in Bangalore, saying this is what it is. I'm sure a couple of other agencies weren't sure vacant for the big daddy in the room. But I remember Samson telling me he's also done the same. So I think Ashish has done a great job of leading this change. Any change takes time. And I think suffice it to say, that if we are knit together, there will be some teething problems. You did it, I didn't do it. Someone has did it, you broke the ranks. All that will happen. But without calling it collective action, there is a feeling that this has to stop. Because not only is it hurting agencies, as Raj said, not only is it hurting broadcasters, it's also hurting clients. Because there are finance guys in the CEOs, and there's a case in point where one of Vikram's clients moved in saying, this is what we are delivering, now they're stuck because quality of delivery is poor, finally the brands are suffering. But they're stuck because that's the metric the finance guys have set in. So I think look forward, ask Ashish. I think under Ashish's leadership a lot is happening. Probably six months down the line, we'll be in a very good position to report this. Ashish, quite apart from the fact that, of course, hearty congratulations on the new responsibility. One of the things that I, ladies and gentlemen, I need to say about everybody on the stage is that we have a very small number of people who actually take on industry responsibilities, who are willing to work for stuff that is not only parochial to their individual companies, and many of them are actually here on the stage. So a round of applause for people who actually work for industry and not just their own companies. Ashish, you've been talking about all kinds of industry things for a very, very long time. This is a great new responsibility to have. Very often in the past it has been tokenism, but what Shashi is suggesting is that you are actually digging your teeth into a really large steak. How hard is it? Because history suggests that this kind of, as he was very, you know, Shashi was careful to say about collective action, but it is a shared misery. How will you exacerbate the sense of this anxiety or this worry and, you know, cause it, create it to become causative, to make it cause change? Look, first of all, the Bhishma Pitama of the industry is just crediting me for something which I happen to be currently chairing through. I'm sure that everybody felt and everybody decided that this is the route that we should take. You're absolutely right that there is no 100% way of guaranteeing it. There are going to be lots of issues around it. And I'm sure we'll not be perfect from the day that we start, but today if you're at zero, hopefully if you make some efforts, the only way you can go is up. So that's the background to it and to solve that. But I think the bigger issue that we need to debate at the moment which we sort of are kind of glossing over is the whole thing of price versus strategy. It is, look, every client gets what he or she deserves and equally every agency gets what he or she deserves. I have no qualms in saying that I'm in this business for making money. I'm not an NGO. Every year I'm making more profits so that I can invest in my business, make it healthier, pay my people better, invest in data, invest in all of that. So there is my responsibility to make sure my business is profitable. And that's not going to, in a free market scenario with nearly unlimited supply, I mean there are so many channels, there are so many options and hundreds of agencies, that's not going to happen by clients saying that okay, tomorrow you can do less, I'll pay you more. So today I as an agency, I don't know about the broadcasters, can earn more is by showing more value to my client for which he will be willing to pay. And what I have observed in the last five to seven years is that the whole complexion of the advertising industry is changing pretty rapidly. There are some legacy agencies which are still caught in very old-fashioned way of thinking, very linear in that, and that part of the business, that part of the business is clearly under pressure. But equally there are so many new things emerging today which when I was a young person in advertising they didn't exist, for example data. There are big businesses emerging around their digital performance. Today 17% of the entire market is digital. My agency gets almost 50% of its business from digital. Out of home, there are going to be 40, 50 different airports coming up in India. And now start thinking that what more ways can we add value? It's not just that we are going to ever be able to charge more for the same thing. What else do we bring to the party? And I think broadcasters equally will have to start seeing that, you know, how do we add more value to the ecosystem and then the client has to pay because nobody wants to miss out on that. Vikram, one is of course that the company keeps widening but I want you to while you are keen to answer just one more thought. This everybody understands price. Everybody knows what price. It's very easy to say that this is 10 rupees, that's 9. 10, 9 is cheaper than 10. What is this strategy? I mean we haven't bothered to actually define what specifically is the strategic input that you as an agency bring to the table and does the client actually understand and to understand it. And evaluate it in that way. Okay, great. Actually I'll answer it. It's linked to that only. Okay. We've all grown up in media saying there are two parts of media effectiveness and efficiency. The reality is efficiency because it was easily measurable has been put under an electron microscope. Effectiveness has been given the slot of lip service. Now post earlier there used to be some kind of analytics and awareness planning and those kind of things which used to be all good stuff but now post digital coming in you can actually do a whole lot of online stuff which actually leads to some kind of outcomes as I call them. There are couple of clients where we are the sole sales channel. In one we are the sole sales channel and the second one we are about 50% of the sales that they get from us. These clients don't bother us about price. We're delivering sales. You've suddenly minimized the issue of the cost part by actually going to the top line which has much higher exactly the point. So sales is one aspect of it. Awareness is another aspect of it. Trying to build some degree of there are different engagement metrics. Now for example I believe today that if you want to make somebody think about your brand that is an outcome to be achieved. It's a via media to a final thing but you're getting them to think about it. Now there is a metric and now I think a lot of these digital majors are there is about the dwell time the amount of time they spend you spend on a piece of content there seem to be a good sort of engagement. If I can actually go and tell people that I've delivered a plan where people actually spend time in your content it could be your ad, it could be a blog, it could be search, it could be anything. But there is a bunch of ways in which they spend more time with your brand and that is something which is worth so and so and they actually put a value to it. It is not an esoteric conversation it's a very real conversation but I think it needs to be evolved people on both ends. I don't think there are enough people in the clients and also revolve enough to have this conversation. I'd love it if that happened too. Ajay you heard him three or four isolated points if I'm allowed to say the first is that when you talk about pricing versus strategy and you're talking the context of a pitch strategy is something intangible and when I talk to you it doesn't resonate to a businessman who's thinking numbers but when you talk about cost and you put forth that I will save X percent as against your current it is music to years of any businessman so point number one. Point number two is I believe this conversation we're having today I'm sure we had it five years back and I promise you we'll have it five years later to borrow from Amitabh Bachchan in Sarkar you can see the benefit of this you can see the benefit of this industry so who holds the betan who holds that my belief is no means no who's going to say that the client is going to continue to ask as long as you continue to offer as long as you say no means no otherwise guess what's happening you're digging your own grave because today if you give me 2% I start feeling it has something else I will keep asking more because I don't know where is your bottom and you're not letting me know that so when you had a pitch which people have pitched for I'm assuming because somebody won it which is that 0% commission what are you telling the message to the client you're earning 0% you are admitting you're earning wrongly then why blame anyone I'm saying no means no if you do that let the believers come to you let the non-believers not come to you like Ashish said if you want profits you're in business I'm here for business I don't want the difference between a creative agency and an ad in media industry is in creative you have 5000 and 5000 more in media you have who are all sitting out here I'm not saying do a shame campaign but you can sit across the table and say boss like Raj frankly says I know what you did last summer but we work on the principle that what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas not last summer no means no has to start somewhere and I think it has to start so Shashi who says this no then yeah so that's why I'm saying some things are best not said in the public forum but I said I'm very hopeful I'm very hopeful so I tell you because you know it's very easy to jump into strategy let's trade with price so today on price what's happening is you know the successes and like Raj said I don't mind naming names I unfortunately don't understand CPRP which is why I've been propagating CPR to CPT because I don't get it so we don't play we're not the lowest sometimes we win sometimes we lose having said that I think any client as Ajay said keeps discovery and some success yes so this is okay my quality is suffering like a big client in Bangalore one person talk whatever one business I one you know quality is maybe suffering but somewhere I'm getting off now an agency is also seen upset fine I'm picking up an entity but I'm still at least got volumes trading on volumes with our broadcaster friends or whatever so I'm saying it unfortunately I'm known to say things as they come now all that will change let me give you a small example so INS now has said that you know you can't do it if you do it you guys reported to us what are the implications of that accreditation whether you're big or small whether you are me or group M I'm sure there'll be some steps like this which I'd be able to also do to the large medium in this country print and TV start doing it so the consultants also start see then the risk reward changes dramatically that's the thing you know so that risk reward is changing which is why I gave credit man sitting in the middle rightly so the president of the years of fire so he will now will move in that direction so I think like I said not everything is to be said but I'm extremely hopeful next 3-4 months things will happen when you're dramatically different next time when I see you Ashish you'll be wearing the full kit of a knight shining armour Ashish I'm going to come to you because you know what frankly the bit that I feel closes to personally in terms of last more than one dozen years is I guess as a broadcaster and whenever I have worn the hat of a broadcaster and whenever I have looked at the price scenario while it is true that you know this nonsense of fragmentation is constantly thrown at the broadcaster the reality is that this is where the big chunky audiences still are right you cannot get while it is true that what we keep talking about that there are you know better ways of measuring response in many digital properties and so on the reality is that if you want to create a big broad impact there is still nothing anywhere in the world not just in India nowhere in the world that's why network television in the US while their ratings keep shrinking the upfront every September you saw the numbers this year as well they are still up 5% over last year they've cut inventory and they're up 5% over last year alright so we don't have the excuse as broadcasters to say that somebody else will say the no and I'll say this for a reason that if in the past and you know this because I've talked to when I have declined business I have told the agency I have told the agency I have told the agency you know the good news about the business is that it's not a zero sum game the rising tide lifts boats if you are prepared to say no even if the business lands up in Viacom it doesn't really matter to you because the prices at Viacom go up and then it circles back to you why do we not say so let I know you do let me say I've been saying no for last 3 years or 4 years possibly and my balance sheet is there to actually you know completely valid you know say that what I'm trying to say here and maybe if they've not heard that no I'm again saying no right now at this forum that any client ever pitched from now onwards I'm not going to reduce my price then what I am operating at today even if it means to lose that business and I'm sure with 20% of your ship share sitting in my table where will you go exactly so I am and there is another master who's not present here it's a message for them as well that if they want to come and you know have a negotiation they can have a negotiation on the piece of how to improve his viewership on my channels he can negotiate with me how to improve his value as he wants to drive from me he can but he cannot do that on behalf of price being cut for the same value which I've been providing over the years and years so that is something I'm making it very clear however what I'll just now add to what you know Shashi ji just said that this is what has been it's now INS has created this and IBF has created this actually we are coming back full circle go back 10 years from now and ask their teams or probably themselves at that time they were also at the same stage of actually going and talking to broadcasters and discussing you know whenever there was a new pitch happening every agency used to call us and ask what is the price you can give it to me that individually each agency who used to go and pitch they would first check with us that what is the price you're willing to pay me and that is the price they used to quote now in that situation if four of them are pitching and I have given let's say an X agency a lower rate than anybody else so he is only valid to give that rate not anybody else what has happened over the years that when they talk to the market here they talk strategy they get I mean everybody starts to get orgasm and they definitely start to you know work on those strategies etc then after the pitch all the strategy is over they are certainly the marketer vanishes from the room and there is another gentleman comes in who is procurement guy he says all this is very nice but how much less and that's where what started to play I think last five to six years in the minds of the agency and actually become a psychological terror in their mind so now the pitch and the strategy starts from what less price at what I can give it to them the thought process itself is from the perspective of how much less agency commission can I charge and I get this account and what is the less price possible less price I can pitch so they start looking at six months or eight months or one year old data at what was the lowest price I paid the broadcaster let's pitch 10% lower than that and that is what I am going to you will shut the broadcasting business down then you will have nothing left exactly so here that's what start to create that vicious circle as I said and Raj very well articulated it saying that you know ultimately we are working in a very small industry here somewhere or the other you end up trying to help somebody but that help has become now a mandate okay Ashish I will ask you this you know I want you to describe a typical RFP that an agency receives for a new media pitch from a client is it like you know 200 aerial bold flashing in one single headline saying cut that damn price or does that RFP actually have a price in it there are brand managers and media managers who have to earn their salary so it will never be cut that damn price but let me tell you how a typical transaction happens and I am exaggerating and making it slightly unreal but it's not far from reality you will make a two hour presentation let's say the first one and a half hours of that you will talk about you will talk about how you can generate the consumer we have done the research proprietary tool and you know there are certain cliches which every agency has now mastered and there are some visuals and some this thing you show in over there parallely there is a exchange going on parallel to this presentation which is like you said there is a exchange going on and it's almost in some cases like an auction so they will see let's say three of us, three agencies have pitched and let's say I am on A I am the highest in price which is bad for him he is the lowest they will tell him look channel A you are very high you have to bring it down another area I might have been better they will tell him no no there is a procurement battle which is going on at the end of the presentation once it's over and you have done it the client will say to us pricing doesn't matter it is somebody else who is looking at it but we are going to take a decision based on chemistry and this that and the other and when you get out of here after your little cynical when you are 30 years into the business and you know why he is lying we know what you have to do and what it turns out to be my experience that one out of ten guy who doesn't do it actually gets the best service out of the industry and agency and actually gets the best value from the channels therein lies a learning but unfortunately the learning is going the other way so if they were if this were three out of ten five years ago now there is probably one out of ten or half out of ten client so irrespective of what the RFP says you know really procurement focused this is typically how it ends up and I'm sorry but that's the truth I have seven minutes left on the clock so if there is anything that any one of you want to say or comment or question please feel free to raise your hands and if nobody else I'll bring the mic to you but in the meanwhile I'll continue with this okay you know I think the one thing which is the soundest singular prescription is the ability to say no I think the ability to say no at the agency level that I will not participate in this kind of an RFP because ultimately this is what it's going to you know sort of distill down to and I know because that's what happened last year and a year before that I mean you know many of us remember that a few years ago a particular client from Delhi actually charged a bidding document fee to participate in that particular thing now you know without getting into the niceties or whether that was a good idea or a bad idea that client is you know sort of rather poorly known in the industry as being a regular blasphemer in this particular way but they always get service is it possible for you know five large agency houses but you know there are places where we will not do business I mean we don't need that god damn business you know you take your 300 crores and the 1% that you will give me out of it it barely pays for the staff that I have it's not worth doing I mean will we have the nerve to look people in the eye and say no I mean Shashi what do you think at the beginning we are in a panel discussion with so many people the client so what you are saying is collective action something to that effect may happen so I don't need to answer this I have already said no Ajay the question I have for all of us is that at the end of the year when you sit in front of your client what do you give to justify your existence and as long as you talk numbers you will be expected on numbers if you put a goat in front of a hungry city why won't you eat it you will accept that marketing stroke media is one of the highest budgets lines in any brand believing company is profit loss account if you can save you put 50 crores in front of him and say that I can save that for you which client will say no the question is to say that this 50 is coming at the cost of my bleeding therefore I say no and I will not give it to you and like they show in some of these Hindi movies the smart hero bids bids bids bids bids takes an auction till here drops out at the last minute and the villain gets caught let the guys who don't know how to say no get stuck with the lemon and the loss making clients that's a pretty sound thought any comments from the audience there are some very distinguished people there not to worry sir nobody has anything to say Sam you are chewing on something you are mulling over something think about it they didn't send any to this these two Ashish I think we are wrapping up this last thing comes to you and try not to be diplomatic this particular time the internal picture within your own industry is that there might be some participants who are perhaps more predatory or in some senses more extortionate than others but for whatever reason I mean we all try to create a rule based system of working and then the rule based system of working people keep trying to slime out of it happens everywhere what do you have available I mean in terms of enforcing any idea enforcing any sense of discipline or order do we as an industry have any mechanism at all I mean we do now have for example for measurement we have a barc for self-regulation we have an advertising standards council do we have any tools at all to reprimand I assume you are talking about advertising agencies because you started saying your industry but actually it is our industry this value change but if I can speak for advertising agencies I can't speak on behalf of others Raj is ready to speak for the broadcast if you ask about rule based stuff actually we might have nothing because any rule is only worth about whatever the guys want to follow it or not but in reality we have a very very strong weapon and I have a lot of confidence in our guys because and the reason for that is look it sounds like a very big large amorphous industry it's not particularly if you look at the media industry it's the same let's say if you take 10 agency heads you probably covered 80% 90% of the room of the market and the beauty is that while we all compete very aggressively as we showed on the business front on a personal front everybody and I'm telling you everybody it's a very unique scenario very very good personal friends and it is the same people that you have to look in the eye the next day so supposing he and I agree that tomorrow you will not go down below 2.5% on that because we are bleeding or we will not go down below cost we will not do business where it hurts us we must make some profit let's say he and I agree and say I ditch him I actually do that tomorrow I have to meet him on a panel here on a meeting on an MRUC meeting and an ad club meeting in Goa Fes what face do I show him so the biggest strength we have in our industry is actually our people and the fact that you see them very often and they are on this thing and I think that's the only weapon we have I personally don't believe any law any rule can ever prevent that more than this I disagree next day after drinking we mix our eyes okay this is reality okay that's the truth but I genuinely believe there is a mechanism and I think it's time the industry wakes up rather than beating around the bush I think the IBF the 3As of I INS and ISA should sit together on the table and draft the rules of engagement and put it to practice and anybody whether it's a broadcast or agency violates the rules of engagement should be penalized outcast large vehemence notwithstanding how many years have IBF and 3As of I gone without even a contract here you don't have a contract the thing is you can't say we'll stop trying no you have to then don't have this debate but the thing is I think now it's come I feel very sad honestly with lot of you know end of the month I still get my salary but I feel very very sad I don't think the media agencies I deal with are passionate about their clients then the clients themselves and then the account moves and the account moves and I said what are you bloody gave your life for this agency and this for this client and then the client has just walked out of you you know that is the thing and right now I think it is time to wake up and smell the coffee because if you don't it is doom's day and faster than you realize you won't have a business model that's a reality Anurag has something to say a pitch of a big client who has 300, 600 crores of money to spend will you promise in terms of the audience here that you will not make price an issue and if one of them makes an issue and you know will an INS d bar in agency will it really happen it's good to have on paper but from the way the construct is laid out it cannot be implemented I mean you cannot bar a group a Madison or a dense wages network or a universal load star you cannot I mean it won't happen let's be honest do you think they will take action against you if you bid low So sir like I said this is a good time festival time we are very high hope I will say something to you not everything is said publicly so I am fully aligned to Raj his vehemence but obviously there is something which I gave compliments to our 3 out of 5 president and there is only that much we can say so we look forward to reading all we are moving in their direction whether the direction is 2 months from now 3 months from now things are happening and Mr. Naik when did you say no to a price tell us a client energy agency specifically right now for the last 6 months I haven't done business with ITC because I have said no just for record very good and I can go on naming clients ok that's why Ashish's balance sheet looks better than mine as I said I have been saying no I don't have one client to name I have many and currently also there are a lot of client who are out and not part of my network overall I just want to add few more things probably so something what we have been discussing what you asked as a mechanism there is a draft which is in the making of sequential liability from the IVF part however in that everything is not discussed in public don't say that that is something comes into play that will help one secondly I just like to you know maybe put a perspective here is that what is an agency today bringing media planning expertise you know buying obviously power also marketing services all the intelligence strategy on the table for a brand to address slowly and steadily as broadcasters we have started to understand that mechanism and actually if you ask me within my team and probably even in Raj will have we have a team of almost 50-60 media planners sitting because they are also planning our media planning for our in-house etc which also understand media planning from outside we also have creative teams we have strategy teams we have consumer insights team I can as a broadcaster bring much more to the table than what an agency can and if the business is going to depend only on price then I am going to go directly to the client and start pitching for the business principle they will have to think about their business existence I think I would just like to intervene on this point you know I think it is a sad thing that broadcasters or newspapers and this might be slightly controversial think that it is very easy for to go to a broadcaster and give a to a client and give a lower price and therefore disintermediate in agency I think they completely underestimate the range of services it is very easy to gloss over the fact that you only bring the price down yes and to answer Anurag's question I don't think pricing will ever go away from media agencies and I don't think that's what the need of the hour is either I think the need of the hour is that unfair predatory pricing which is not you can't do away with the competition it is a free world I mean I might it is just the unfairness that needs to go away and it has to be pegged at a certain level so pricing will not go away but I think it is unfair to think that the only thing that the agency is bringing to the table is the price right so so to just let Ashish know there are thousands of people sitting in all media agencies who are doing a lot more than just trying to sit with you and get the pricing down if you come to any agency you know and I'm not here saying my agency you choose any of the agencies that are represented here just spend one hour in with some of those people and you would be pleasantly surprised at all I can see I second that I don't I don't if agencies don't have any existentialistic threat about being disintermediated right now I am so I have to I have to shut this one down I don't touch the honestness it's not that what I meant and I don't mean any disrespect it is just that you know keep on pushing the pricing down without asking value for it so I completely agree with Ashish when he said that bring value to the table that is a prayer I mean that is an onus on the broadcaster publisher or any media services which been provided to that value has to be brought on table but at the price which is you know not predatory but at value changes we are also starting two man talk act called Ashish and Ashish which goes on stage right after this in the meanwhile please give it up for this wonderful panel and for the event organizer