 I would like to introduce Prasad Bhattakey, Chief of Experience Design at YUJ. Prasad is responsible for anchoring new engagements, building strategies and team. Making a difference is what Prasad brings to the table, as he drives user research, interaction design, visual design with equal zest and excellence. There is a gap the design community needs to bridge, and that's what he's going to talk about. Welcome Prasad. When we were talking about impact, I was, when the conference team came up, I was thinking, okay, what are the projects that made impacts to the customers and so on and so forth. But I realized that at the end of the day, the talent that is going to work on a project matters the most. And so, hence this topic. So, the quality of the talent equals to the quality of output, and hence the impact. And the talent would have, especially when you're working in an industry, the technical skills, maybe design thinking, wire framing, visual design, what not, equally matters as matters as the soft skills. So, it's kind of a mix of both, which creates a good career for you. One of them is missing, kind of tends to become a challenge in the industry, at least that's what happens in the industry. So, good career would mean satisfying work, genuine output, you're a happy life, you have profits for your company, and you have happy customers, profit, good salary, everything works very good, that's an ideal situation. But today we have a problem. Today, because a lot more companies are wanting a lot of UX to be done, design to be done, empathy for the users, there's a certain surge of requirements for user experience designers. So, the demand has really gone up, and we are really struggling with supply. So, that's the reality, and this gap is not good for our UX community. So, let me just quickly talk about why am I saying so. Right, so when there is a lot of demand, there is going to be scarcity in the actual real talent that is required, because suddenly you can't have millions of UX designers in the industry and everyone is doing really good. So, there would be always a gap and then there will be scarcity. The cost will go up, because to do the same good amount of work, you will be scrambling for designers. So, you'll end up paying good designers good salary, and so the cost kind of goes up, but there is a burn, because now you're going to work late nights and try to finish the projects. Some other projects which want to really do good UX work are going to do a lot more iterations than required, and so the burn will be extremely high. Now, what does this mean? This means instability in the industry. On the other hand, the reliability goes down, because now the quality is going to shrink. I have seen a lot more CTOs and CEOs saying, okay, let's hire a designer quickly so that our design or our product becomes more competent in the market. It's still UX, looks beautiful, but the quality actually goes down, because they're going to have a suboptimal designer designing it. Why am I saying so? Because I think all as a design community, we need to raise to the occasion and really see how we can bridge this gap. Knowledge is going to be a big challenge, because not everyone is going to have the knowledge that it needs to be a true UX designer. They may be put into a situation where they're expected to design something that they don't have knowledge for. So overall, our UX brand kind of starts diminishing. So this gap is increasing as I see. So let's look at some of the reasons why this gap is increasing. It's no more designing wireframe. Still about four, five years back when UX was critical in India, people who you can do wireframe, think before we start coding, you're a UX designer, fine, but that's no more the case. And people still talk about IA and UT as some of these jargons, but that's again not something that is expected. There's a lot more that is expected from a designer. Lot more times you would have noticed that some of your bosses or some of your seniors would say, I think this screen looks good. Why don't we just replicate and submit it off? So all of this is gone. This is what the businesses are now looking for. This is not only because what I'm saying, I am also seeing this, what my customers are expecting from me. They're really wanting something which is new, which completely overrides their competition. Business impact conversion. We have seen this more in time and again where business conversion is really expected. That designers are moving away from wireframe but are really seeing how the designs that they create really have a return on investment for the businesses. Design strategy. Are designers talking strategy for the long haul? Not really short term. Why don't I make this icon look beautiful? Or why don't I make this button look green or blue to match the color scheme? That's not what design is. Design is about coming up with a strategy which matches with the business strategy of the company and making an impact there. I think designers have to start getting there. Demonstrate leadership. Today, I guess, with this whole new UX generation of aware people, the CEOs and CTOs are really more aware of what UX is, what UX methodology is. So when they are going to talk to you, you need to talk their language of what UX is. And demonstrate that through your deliverables. I feel the principles of human cognition, that is something I see serious lack of people really talking that language. When you talk human cognition, I think people get it that that's where designers are making that impact. And I feel the gap is going to increase much more than what I just said. And here is why. So trend is that technology is really moving fast. We have seen bot. Bot technology is coming, virtual reality coming, augmented reality coming. And people are expecting personalized experiences, customized experiences. There is apps. Today, we see that there are a lot of discussions that are happening, that the apps are a little passe. People want inline experiences. Why should I even open LinkedIn? If I just talk to my app and say, OK, open LinkedIn and I want to give an update, the app should open automatically. So those kind of interfaces and interactions with machines is something that we should be ready for. And that's where our knowledge of human cognition will start mattering a lot versus can I design a file in a Photoshop, or can I create a wireframe in an Axiom. There are also things like voice and touch. And all of this needs to start talking at multi-channel or multi-devices. Are we ready as designers there yet? And I think we are not because we are not even thinking about the overall end-to-end user experience that we need to build. So as I said earlier, the computers came in the 90s. The IT boom happened little in the 90s when a lot of engineering teams started doing engineering, but almost no design for 15 years. In the last four or five years, we have seen that the design has really taken an active participation in product design. So the problem is that there is a dearth of UX talent in the industry. And because there's a dearth of talent in the UX industry, there are no people going into the academics, and so vice versa. Because there are no one in the academics, nothing is coming out into the industry. So it's a big, big dangerous sign for UX as a brand in India. Less opportunity to get trained on the job because there are less talented people in the top when more and more people, like what Ajay said, I want to learn and I want to be mentored, what should I do? If there are no people in the top going to do the mentoring, how is the next generation of designers really going to do meaningful user experience design? And then the top management have seen a lot of this happening where they would say, OK, we want this product to look beautiful in compared to our competition. Get some designer to do it. And the moment a designer says, hey, yeah, I do a lot of UX because anything that I do is users see it, and that's why it's user centered. They get hired. They get paid a lot more, and that is kind of dangerous for the true designers who are sitting in this conference. So studios, UX departments in different organizations and startups, they are looking for right candidate at the right price. On the other hand, there are experts. There are mid-levels and freshers in the industry, and they want to really build strong careers with a good mentor so that together they can really grow. So this is what happens at huge designs. I just thought I should kind of share this story with you. In the last about two to three months, I've gone through 300 resumes. I was able to hire only one person. Running a design boutique is extremely important when companies like Honeywell, eBay, PayPal, Cisco come to us saying that, OK, why don't you? We have a design problem. We have a problem with our users. Why don't you solve them? If I have to put a designer in front of this customer, it is an extremely tedious job for me to select the talent. So this is a type of a quick cut at resumes that I receive. There are two resumes here. Which one do you think I should be worried most about? Any guesses? Which one? Wrong. The left one is what I need to be worried about. Because these are the resumes that I get. I do UI UX. I think users. I do IA persona because I can Google up this and put it in my resume. And that's where my problem starts. Because this is easy for me to quickly take it out. But this one is tough. This is what happens, right? OK, let's call in for the resumes. Give them some initial questionnaire. I give them a questionnaire so that I can see their design thinking what their passion really is. The design test, so maybe if the resume is OK, I say, OK, let me give him a design test. The design test goes well, and then the interview comes in. People feel the moment my resume is accepted, I think I'm going to get the job. But that's not what happens in the interview. The interview becomes much, much more difficult to get in. Some of the reasons why there is a higher rejection. Claim to be user experts and are overpaid. Individual contributors. Today in the industry, when you are a UX experience designer, you are expected to not only drive some of the interaction designers and visual designers, but drive some of the client team members, where you are going to anchor their design vision. It's not that, OK, a project manager will come to you and say, OK, why don't you design the screen? Gone are the days. The days are where the designer is expected to drive the entire engagement at the client location. Not much to show. They just show portfolios with a lot of static screens. They look beautiful because half of the thing is wide hero images with lovely photographs. It doesn't tell me anything about what is the design thinking that you had employed to solve the customer's problem. Both of these things are extremely important. Next time when you send resumes to UG designs, please make sure that any graphic that you put there is saying that please tell what was the business challenge that you had at hand, and how did you solve it? Misfit to the culture. Running a design boutique, it's important that all the designers, as we all said, it needs to be a team playing activity. They need to fit into the culture. How? We also spoke about, Satish mentioned, about ability to emotionally handle yourself. Most of the designers are very passionate. That's a great news, but the moment they are extremely emotional about their design, they fall in love with their design. They do not want to open it for debate. They do not want to open it for critique, and that's where the problem begins. Because the moment the same design goes to the customer and the customer kind of critiques it, you have no way to handle that situation. Our culture, as I said here, drive customer engagement and design leaders. We have a round of internal design reviews, and that the designer has to be able to handle it. And if he's not ready for it, it becomes a problem to our culture. So this is what I've made a comparison, and I'm going to quickly move and open all the slides and the bulleted points here. So this is what the industry is looking for. Someone who tells a story. I'm telling you this because I'm expecting when the people kind of apply to design agencies are able to deliver what is on the left-hand side and completely ignore what you have on the right-hand side. So candidates usually come and offer saying that, OK, wire frames. I wear the user's shoes, and they deliver wire frames. OK. They have skill in gathering requirements. That's not probably what we're looking for because there are business analysts, project managers doing that job. Designers, the skill is not about gathering requirements. Mostly single-handed and don't get into brainstorming sessions, they are really passionate of getting into the UX, but they do not know how. On the other hand, this is what the industry is looking for. Someone who tells a success story. This is what I did for my customer, and this is what the business impact it had as an ROI. I'm going to skip some of this. The third bulleted point. This is how it was before, and this is how I had kind of made as an impact, as a new design. Able to talk design, not just meaning, but the application of terminologies. One of the person came in and said, he's an FT UX. I was not sure what FT UX means. And I asked him, what was it? He said, first time user experience designer. So what happens is we are diluting our own community, and I think we should not do that. People said, OK, when we say, OK, you have done information architecture. Tell me more about what is information architecture. And they say, this is page level navigation. We are diluting our own value. The moment people do Google, quickly search for keywords and paste it in their resumes, they don't know how to handle that in the last session of the interviews. What really matters is the work quality, and not the number of years that the designer has spent in the industry. This is the number one bullet that I really, really miss when people come and talk. They don't listen. So one important thing about any good designers to really listen. Listen to the customer, because the customer is telling his problems, and he really, genuinely wants you to solve his problems. So do we have listening skills? Once you listen, you also think you don't have to respond immediately. Sorry. And then ask probing questions. Tell me more about it. Can be curious about what the customer really is going through, so deeper probes. Then listen again. Think, and then respond. This is one skill I see kind of missing, because designers are very passionate about their work, good. But the moment the customer opens his mouth, starts to tell the problem, the designer is ready with the solution already. That's not the thing, because we are solving design problems that are much more beyond one screen or a button or a two. I spoke about open the designs for review. Thinkers first. I think this is another thing. Designers are creators who they create using different tools as they sketch. So they get into a doing mode very, very quickly. They get a problem, and they start scribbling a wireframe without having to think about, OK, what is the problem that they are going to solve. So I'm urging all of you guys to really say, OK, whenever there is a problem that comes to you, take a minute or two, maybe more. A minute or two is just a statement. But take some time to really think about what the problem that you're solving. Then bullet number one, where you think, contemplate, ask probing questions, get back, and then respond with a sketch. Design management, time and quality is equally important. We are under tremendous pressure as an industry to deliver. Most of the time you would have noticed that the management, the project manager or a product manager would say, hey, this screen should be done in five minutes. This is where we have to take a stand and say, hold on. This is not what design is all about. And you need to put him on a tight spot, saying that, OK, I have questions for you. I'm going to interview you. You tell me, answer my questions. In that case, I will be able to design and deliver. We usually get into a doing mode. We'll say, OK, let me create a wireframe quickly so that he's impressed and he'll be happy. You're actually increasing the problem because you have not understood the problem and you've created a wireframe for something that is not a problem. Asking a lot of questions, especially, because if you ask these questions, the CEO will love you. Because you are a human. The CEO is a human. All of us are trying to solve some problems. The CEO is not the answer to the problem. They do not know what the solution is. They know what the problem is. Talk to him, talk to her, of course, both of them. And try to understand what the problem is. And they are seeking solutions from you guys and not vice-versa. Typically, our culture is, someone has told me to solve a problem. That means he knows the answer. He is just going to validate it. So I'll create a sketch or a design and go back and validate it. And he'll say, oh, yes, that's a good design. That's not a good approach. He is coming to you. He or she is coming to you to solve the problem. One thing I've noticed, I've done so many interviews over the last six, seven years. No one asks a question. When you're attending an interview, please make sure that you have your questions ready. You have gone to Use Designs website. Find out flaws. Ask those questions. We will be more than happy if you kind of question the interviewer. So last point is extremely important. There are several occasions where people have come in. They've written all these jargons in their resume. They come extremely confident to the interview. And when we ask them questions, they are not able to ask questions back. I would expect all the candidates to come and ask questions. So that's what happens. Assume interview is not a UX expert. Most of the time, probably, they would have read on Google. They would have studied in their education institutes. And they may not really study the company whom they're going to interview with thoroughly well. They directly land on to the interview. Maybe they don't have time for preparation. But they come there, assuming the other person may not know so much of UX, because I know UX. I've read a lot on Google. They go there and start talking about it. And when they start, they get questions from the interviewer. They have no answers. And that's where there is a chances that you've lost that battle. 50% of the battle is lost there. I've spoken about the visual portfolio. They're mostly responsive. I asked you a question, you responded. It's not participatory. I think designers need to start participating in a kind of dialogue, not a monologue, but a dialogue with the interviewer, saying that, OK, this is what it is. What do you think it is? If I say, OK, that's a wrong definition of information architecture, then it's important that this guy says, instead of that, he could say, OK, maybe I think my knowledge is limited. I don't know. Tell me more. That way I know that you're open to learning more, and possibly then there is an opportunity to mentor. I've mentioned that, and I've mentioned that too. Seeking a job, as we discovered in the morning, most of them come because UX is a paying job. They do a lot of HTML. They want to really grow. I understand one of the participants right now also asked me that there's a visual designer, and he wants to get into the UX. How should he do the transition? It's not about going from visual design, stopping to do visual design, and getting into user experience design. It's not a department ship. It's not a silo. The visual designer could really show value as to how his visual design has an impact on the way user experience gets influenced. Today in our organizations, visual designers are able to influence in the way the wireframes are created. Usually the scene in the last four, five years has been that the wireframes are created by the interaction designer, passed on to the visual designer, and the visual designers are at the receiving end. Today there's a major shortage. More than what user experience designers we need, or the interaction designers that we need, there's a more dearth of visual designers in the market. So visual designers need to now think how visual aesthetics can also have an impact on user experience. It's not just about interaction design. Both go hand in hand. So ideas to reduce this gap. So all of these slides that you have seen are basically my thoughts that have contemplated and thought of jotting them down. None of these are googled up. These are my thoughts based on my experience so far. And this is something that I see as a community that we need to build. So some of these ideas are just my ideas. Feel free to add to these ideas at the end of the session or write to me in an email. So head of design UX practitioners to push UX process. I think if the bosses there, the UX process heads, are going to not take a stand and push the envelope, nothing is going to change for their middle managers or the people who are designers in the team. And if you see that your bosses are not pushing enough, you know what to do. Don't let sloppy practices come in. If you're going to skip a process or two in user experience design, that means you're sure that the output is going to be suboptimal. That means your product is going to be suboptimal in the market. And so the market share of the product would be suboptimal. And so would be your careers. So it's an interesting dynamic that is running under. And every day, every month goes by. And if you continue to do sloppy work, the output is going to be sloppy. Start reading, start talking about it. I think we may read on Google, but we don't talk. We assume, oh, now I've got the knowledge. But the more you talk, you will be able to prove your vocabulary about these terminologies and put it into practice. Invite folks to critique your designs. Very critical. It's an amazing experience when you invite designers to critique your own work. Because one, it breaks the ice that you're not going to fall in love with your own design. You're going to get a different perspective. And that perspective actually makes your design much more stronger. Extremely important, able to justify your designs. Your design, because you felt so, you read somewhere and that has got reflected into your designs. But if you're not able to justify it, why did you make the layout? Why did you make the design the way it is? Without any rationale, it's going to be subjective. It would be perceived as a subjective design. You have designed it yourself. So read on cognitive psychology, cognitive science. There are a lot of principles that come in extremely handy and they're not long paragraphs and complex text of research. They're one or two liners, usability laws that come in extremely handy for just while designing and then justifying your designs. A lot of us have thoughts here as well. And so why not take an occasion and put all these thoughts together and present it within your organization? It could be, again, your CEO or the CTO or your product manager, team up with the product managers and come up with some of the thoughts on your product and take a stand and present it to the management. They might see you completely different rather than an individual contributor. Teach at a design school, I think we spoke about that or help a startup. Maybe you can charge them a small fee. That will give you a feeling of being an entrepreneur. And good work always needs to get paid. Submit works for international competition. We again barely do that. We should start doing that. And overtake the product manager in some of the design decisions that will drive the product vision. Because designers do that design thinking. What Satish did. Satish mentioned about, OK, I wanted to push the envelope and I did. That's what we could do. We have a lot more thoughts. Why don't we do that? We always perceive ourselves as, OK, I'm a designer. I'll sit in front of Photoshop or XOR and create wireframes in Photoshop. And my job is done. Who am I to question? But start doing that and you will start seeing the difference in about 15 days. If you're working late hours, that means something is really wrong. In the last seven years that we have been running huge designs, we have been extremely meticulous about our methodology. People don't go home. Sorry. People go home by 5.36 maximum. And it tells us a story that if there is a methodology to it, you will be able to predict your work hours. You will be able to predict your deliverables to the customer. You will be able to manage the product project in a way that it needs to be. Versus being extremely reactive to the customer or your immediate manager saying that why don't you put these five screens together and then go home? And by the time you eye-trade, by the time you do the design reviews, it's 9 o'clock in the night. This is the last slide. So all the slides that you saw earlier was something that you can do at an individual level. But as a system together, these are my thoughts that we should do for a collective skill development in this country because there is a gap. The demand is going high and the supply is real. Really, really low. I want to really trigger this initiative where the students could come over to the industry. Knowledge session with customers. Irrespective, I'm sure you would have noticed this. And I have noticed it a lot. When you have sessions on user experience designed with your customers, they say, this is really good. This is really good. Now, can you deliver me your first wireframe? Can I see something tomorrow? Invariably, even customers are not educated. You need to still educate them. Irrespective, they come to a design studio to do good UX work. They will still not have as much respect for the time and the pain that it takes to create designs. They're invariably asked for immediate deliverables. So I think we need to do a lot more knowledge sessions with the customers so that they understand what the reality is because no one understands this whole giant called UX. Other than that, OK, that makes the life of the user easy. But how it is done, no one knows it. Sharpen this word. I think you need to sharpen us. We need to sharpen our swords for high-end skill development. As I said in the previous slides, there's virtual reality coming, augmented reality, bots, touch-free interfaces, voice interfaces. I think we are not even ready for that. And our knowledge of cognition is really low. Academics should definitely strengthen the initiatives of giving practical knowledge. There are internships which are month-long, three-months-long, but I think they are not enough. And the goal that is still given to them is deliverable-based. At the end of the project, why don't you submit wireframes and why don't you submit visual design? I think that needs a big shake-up. I feel we have a long way to go. But if you have any suggestions for me, please go ahead and write to me on that email. Thank you so much. As you talked about, I just want to know, I'm in a dilemma. I'm very new to this industry. What does it take on a UI UX designation which designers hold altogether? Yeah, that's a great point. I think there's nothing called as UI and then UX. It's just user experience, whether you design a user interface or design something else. I think we should, I would encourage everyone to just stop using this UI slash UX. UI usually came because a lot more people did HTML design. So they were doing user interfaces than design didn't even exist in the 90s and the early 2000s. So they started using UI and then they started Googling up and realizing that, okay, there's something called as user experience design. So they said, okay, now I do UI as well as UX. If you want to truly get recognized as UX expert, stop using, even if you were doing, stop using the words like HTML, JX, UI in your resumes, but mostly portrait, even if it is a small one month experience of UX, please elaborate what did you do in that UX experience? Okay, thanks a lot. Earlier, Satish talked about taking risk while hiring. And say in an interview, you realize that there is someone who does not know half the stuff which you talked about, but he is high on learnability. He's ready to learn and he accepts that, you know, I do know that I don't know half of the stuff, but hire me, I'll learn on board and I'll do my best. So what would be your... I think it's a great question. I see this at least once or twice a week where the resumes are really not reflecting the true essence of UX and that's not his or her fault at all because in the last 20 years, they have grown, they have taken their careers from let's say visual design to doing bit of UX or HTML to doing bit of VD and then realize UX is also paying up, but the salaries have gone extremely high and they can't take a salary cut and then join at a little more starting point for UX. And that becomes a big challenge for the, even if I want to help, I can't help. There were several occasions when the candidate said, I forget the salary, I want to join as an intern. We have done that, where then the passion really comes out, but it really depends. If you have kids, you have family, you can't really do that, but in that case, if someone is really able to absorb you in at that kind of a salary, I had examples where people were drawing for in lax and couldn't, the same thing, right? Couldn't answer the question, what is information architecture? It was a pity and that's why this slide deck that I've put together, because I really felt we are at a juncture where UX is going to crash if we don't do critical thinking as a mass. It's not just about me or you individually. We have to collectively think about how do we avoid this UX crash? More salary is going up, but not doing quality work. Invariably would be affecting the others in the market and overall UX brand will collapse. Invariably none of us will be doing quality work in the industry. Hi Prasad, my name is Ajay. I'm an UX designer and it was a really insightful presentation. It's a question and also sort of the dilemma that I also faced. I feel that your hiring criteria is a bit stricter. What I take away from the presentation is that it's your view on the other side of the consulting, like huge design. I just have one question. If you have faced it or you may face in the future, like you showed a number where you have 300 resumes and you end up selecting one, how would you respond in a situation where one of these 300s or few of these 300s are hired by the big ears that you work for and you eventually end up sending your one best designer to work for those people whom you have rejected? Have you ever been in a dilemma like that or how would you respond in such a situation? I think that's a realistic situation. And it doesn't matter to me. At the end of the day, see, I think huge design started in 2009. We are still 30 designers. If I wanted, I could have become 100 to 100 designers in one single group by hiring everyone who comes to my agency and say, okay, let's do UX. So it's at the end of the day, my call to say, okay, what is the threshold of quality that I want to deliver? And especially when Fortune 100 companies like Honeywell comes to us and survives us for three years, invariably having 30 designers in their studio in Bangalore, I think it talks about my quality deliverable. So in fact, I have a question for you. So in terms of the timeline part or whatever, so I mean, most of the time, we really don't get to do up the basic logic even what to our expectations criteria, we don't get to do because of the budgets, even changing a small feature in a product will not be possible because it kind of accepts a testing phase. There is an issue in the main cost, everything, just resource utilization, et cetera, et cetera. So what is your message to the biggies in the company? Because we kind of really don't embark on UX, which I've kind of really seen in my career in the last 12 years. So kind of I really see there is a big gap which is kind of there where the biggies really don't understand our logics. So I think it's our failure that we are unable to convince them. As design leaders, if you have the right rationale, see if I can tell, and that's why I keep saying that, okay, the understanding of cognitive science, if we understand that, let's say if you have a flow of three, four screens on the phone or the tablet app that you're designing, and you know that this flow is suboptimal and it is going to affect the client's business, let's stop this, they will listen to you. If you are unable to convince because you don't have the, you know, you're going to the battlefield without the sewer, they are going to eat you up. And that's what happens. I mean I'm just saying in a very, not like one or two projects when a big corporate's like that, so there are a huge number of projects which come in and it's like a big mode which will kind of work more like a factory mode or something like that. Our times to BRD and the SRS documents are the thing we just need to kind of get started. And we just get a very little minimum time to even to kind of do all the stuffs that we really want to do. In fact, your presentation was really fabulous. It's kind of really, I mean kind of spoke what we internally went through like all these days. So like that, so I'm just trying to kind of understand so do we need to do something about in a big way? Get a good UX champion, question your boss. If the boss is not right, that's why it is happening. Sorry about that. I mean, no, I mean just generally saying, I mean, this is happening on a day to day basis. I just want to kind of get your insight on that. I have seen when I'm consulting with other big firms and really big firms and I've met the UX designers there, so-called UX designers, they will talk, they'll talk, but they are unable to deliver. I had this director of user experience design for one of these top companies, I can't name them. They said, if these guys could do it from Pune in Bangalore, what are you guys doing? And these are actual quoted words except for that I can't take the name of the person. So I think if we leave it in, I think we will be able to deliver one day at a time. One year from now, I think we'll have more faces here saying that, oh, I think we started feeling for our own leadership versus being a football. That's why I think I had a football image somewhere because we are always football to what the product manager and the project manager ends up telling us to do and we do it with a feeling that whatever I'm going to create will change the world out there, but we lack the sword. We don't have the science. We don't have the rationale that we need to fight with. The moment you start fighting, they'll know that, oh, this is a bigger enemy to fight, enemy in a positive sense, and they will go on the back foot to kind of start respecting you that you are more powerful than what they're thinking is and that will start changing the scenario. Thank you, Prasad. Thank you. That was a great session. Please give a big round of applause.