 We are going to have a nice chat today with all of you. You enjoy as much as we just enjoy being together and feeling the love and the connection and the relaxation. And Joanie has been a course of miracles student for quite a few years and actually came down to a mystery school and just dove in. We were coming initially for a couple weeks and then... Well, I figured it was an easy out. If I got scared, I could leave. You could leave. Just plan for two and then you stayed for six. Oh, I knew I was staying for six because my plane reservation was for six. Okay. But I was playing, you know. Yeah, you just gave yourself a little help card just in case. Totally. I did. Well, that's so beautiful because I think what we're talking about today, I think Eric put the title up. But actually we're just talking about authenticity. We're talking about, you know, really connecting and from a deep place with what you feel and then being open to open further because it's a very deep journey. And with Jesus leading the way, that is, that's our standard. That's our way showers. So I feel that with your heart. You just have this... It's a sure thing. Yeah, you're like saying, Jesus, you show the way and then that's why we're here talking right now because of that. So I thought we just could talk. You can just share maybe some of your impressions or insights. Just this was a walk of trust for you. Oh, it really is. It really, really is. I guess I found the course or the course found me. I don't know which was in 1989. And so I was working at an eating disorder unit in a hospital. And one of my colleagues said, Oh, I'm going to go to course and miracles meeting. And I thought my ears really perked up because didn't hear of it before. And I thought this would be good. So I found my people. I found a great study group and became a member of that for many, many, many years. And, you know, we read the course. We studied it. We discussed it all the usual stuff. And then we started going up to Roscoe because Ken and Gloria Wapnick, you know, we're doing academies. They're almost every weekend or every other weekend up there. They were very busy. And it was wonderful. I mean, I love the course. I love to study it. I love the academies that Ken did. They were wonderful. And it was a hotbed of new thinking and people were coming from all over the states, all over Canada. They were even starting to come in from Europe. And so we went as often as we could go. And so until, you know, studied and, you know, did all of those things, I was a copious note taker. I had no, I don't even know how many notebooks full of things I've written down. Everything that I heard went on that page. I must have over all of those years gone through at least four course books because they were all dogged and marked up and all that stuff. And at some point Ken and Gloria moved the foundation out to Temecula, California. And I'm not sure exactly when that was probably, I don't know, 2005 or six or something. And so yeah, I dutifully got on the plane and I flew out to Temecula for many years until Ken became very ill and then he passed away. So out of the 33 years that I've been a student of this wonderful course, 28 of them were intellectualized. Truly, I loved the course. I studied hard, but I never made that connection of love with Jesus. I just, today it's absolutely mind boggling that I didn't, but I didn't. And so, well, it just went on for a long time. So 28 of those years, I was just in my head pretty much. And so it must have been around 2018. I, you know, was looking out at the world and I liked being a student, but it wasn't really doing all that much for me to be honest with you. And so I thought to myself, you know, I don't like what I see out there. The world's upside down, all this political insanity was going on, forest fires raging, global warming. I'm looking out there and thinking, oh my Lord, there's got to be more than this. There just has to be. And I think at that point there was a prayer in my heart and I just said, please help me out here. I don't know where I'm going and I really want more and I know there is and I don't know how to get there and I don't know what to do. And I think at that point, I guess if I look at it now, all heaven broke loose because truly it did. I mean, it started with teeny little prompts and, you know, little ideas and I guess I started to listen. And two major things happened for me, the greatest of blessings. And the first was I was in a friend's home and on the bookshelf, I saw he had a little book, not a little book. It's pretty thick and it was called Autobiography of a Yogi. And that was the autobiography of Paramahansaji Yogananda. And something said to me, pick up that book and I did, I went straight to the library. I had to renew it three times because it's so thick. And I read it very carefully and this was a, you could see this beautiful master. You could see he had a heart that just didn't quit. And so I thought to myself, you pay attention here. And I heard three things from Yogananda that he taught me. And I so love him for this because I really didn't know how to pray from the heart. I didn't, I just never did. Oh, I prayed all right, but I didn't pray that way, that deep way. And he taught me how to pray from my heart. He taught me what devotion was in that book. And another thing he made very clear in that book, what he said, don't think you're going to get very far. If you don't create a relationship with the creator, with your father, he said, don't think you're going to get too far. And I really never thought about it quite like that. You know, I mean, you know, father's, that father was, I don't know, on a throne somewhere with a big gorgeous gown or, I don't know, you know, but it wasn't, I didn't feel that way initially. So, and the third thing he said was, you must find community. You must. And, and I thought to myself, well, good luck with that here. I'm sitting in Rochester. Well, I mean, it's not a huge city after all. And I just, I, you know, I thought, well, I'll just put it out there. And I looked under Yogananda. And don't you know, two miles down the street from me, there is, there was a lovely institute. It was the Assisi Institute. And it was, it was, I mean, it just blows my mind when I think about it today. It's basically, basically comprised of Yogananda devotees, Christian mystics and some course people. I mean, of all the things in the world to run into, can you imagine? So, so I became part of that community and now we're rolling into COVID. And so now everybody's locked down. You can't go anywhere. And so this, I, they had a zoom number. So I just put it in my, my little computer thing. And I started attending all their services and stuff. They didn't know who I was. They didn't even know I was out there, but I was part of their group and they didn't know it. But anyway, so that got me through the COVID part pretty much. And the second thing, and I think maybe probably more important that I ran across in my email. That Judy scutch was doing a podcast called miracle voices. And so I started to listen. I thought, well, I'm home anyway. I'm not going anywhere. And so the fourth or the fifth guest happened to be somebody named David Huffmeister. And I listened to that podcast and I thought, oh my Lord, I think this is what I'm looking for. This is the missing piece. And so the voice said, now I've got a voice. And this little voice is telling me you better listen to that podcast again. So I did. And then I thought to myself, I'm going to check this out on YouTube. And I did. And of course there you were everywhere. And I mean, you could listen for two hours, two and a half hours, 20 minutes. I mean, however much time you had, it was there. And so I started listening a lot, hours, just hours and taking it in and taking it in and getting a whole other perspective on the course. I mean, like, oh, oh my, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't know any of this. I had no idea that that's what I was really supposed to be doing listening and following. I had no idea. I had no idea that I wasn't supposed to be people pleasing and having all these private thoughts. Which of course I did. And so this went on for quite a time. And you, maybe you and Francis were having conversation on one of them. And I heard you mentioned a monastery. And I thought, are you kidding me? Since when does course and miracles have monastery? And I thought you should check that voice said you should check that out. So I did. I checked that out. And there were two of them. One was in Utah and the other one is in Mexico. And I'm thinking, I'm not going to Mexico. I've never doing that. So I find out, well, nothing's happening in Utah. If you want to do something, you have to go to Mexico. So then I start to read about Tabula Rasa and, you know, mystery school. And I'm thinking mystery school. Oh my, I don't know about this. You know, I don't know about this. And so one of, it might have been about a week later. I was looking in my, just went out for my mail. And there's this great big yellow postcard. Some company was advertising something. And in big black letters that said, you are chosen. And I thought, you got to be kidding me. That's the ridiculous. Again, I remember you telling stories about billboards and all this stuff. You know, so I thought to myself, oh no, no, no, no, this can't be happening. And so I go back to watching more things and I'm reading, I'm really reading all of the information about the mystery school. And this little voice says, again, you should go. And I'm thinking to myself, really? You just want me to pick up and go somewhere for six weeks. And I don't know anybody down there. And when am I going to be doing there? And all the rest. And so don't you know, three days later, I get another postcard in my mailbox, a great big yellow postcard that says, you are chosen. And I thought, oh, come on. Are you kidding me? And so I said, okay, Jesus, I'm really trying hard here to have some faith. But you got to give me more than two postcards. I'm sorry. I'm not a spring chicken here. I'm 81 years old. You want me to hop on a plane and go to Mexico? I don't know. And so I said, okay, this isn't going to do. I mean, talk about arrogance, really. I'm going to pick up my iPhone. I had a New York Times news feed, you know. And I said, and if I go through this whole thing and I see the word Mexico, I promise I will go. I'll do whatever you ask me to do. Well, I'm reading the first paragraph, nothing. Second paragraph has New Mexico, you know, the state. And I'm thinking to myself, no, it's not Mexico. It's not good enough. Don't you know the third paragraph? Mexico, a whole little article about Mexico. And I just said, oh my God, I cannot believe this is happening. I will. I'll go. I'll go. I mean, you know, if you really want me to do something here, I'm learning that I should listen. I am really going to listen here. So that was February and Mystery School started, I think the very last day of May or something like that. And so for those three months, the ego worked me over on such a level. I'm telling you, there were 40,000 reasons why I should not come. You're going to get lost in the airport. Atlanta is horrible. You have to go underground and get on one of those trains and you're going to miss your plane. You know, you don't speak Spanish. You don't know anybody. You're too old. What are they going to do with you down there? You're 81 years old. And what are, what are they going to do with you? You know, and I, it was awful. And so I just, I somehow or other, I crawled to the airport. I was on the, I said, Jesus, please just one more sign, just one, just one. And so I'm in the taxi. It's about three 30 in the morning. I had a very early flight. And though I see on a billboard, you're on your way. And I thought, oh my God, this just keeps happening. So, so I went, so I came down here and of course it was wonderful. And I got to meet an amazing staff and wonderful peers and awesome interns. And we really bonded. Lisa called us a 12 apostles because there were 12 of us. And we, we really, we worked hard. We cried hard. We laughed hard, you know, all of it. And there were a couple of things that I ran into down here that created such a deep pathway for me to Jesus that it still knocks me out. And one of them was the your rancher book never heard of it, you know, and turns out your rancher was the history of the earth, you know, the planet earth. And I skipped all the hard part. There's, it's an enormous book, but there's a whole section in the back about 1500 pages just about Jesus. And it was actually kind of like a blow by blow description of what he did when he was here, who he talked to. I don't know, conversations, everything you ever wanted to know if you could sit down and talk to him, you would have asked him all this stuff. And so I started to read it. I started it here. And of course it was so big, I couldn't finish it. But I did get the book and I read it all the way. I finished it and I read it when I was home. And what happened for me when I read that book, David, was that Jesus walked out of those pages and he walked right into my heart because I really, I didn't know that you could love like that. I just didn't know you could. And so, yeah, so that was pretty profound. And the other thing was, during one of the lectures, somehow or other, Eric mentioned a Hawaiian practice called Ho'oponopono. I never heard of that either. And so I went home and I was telling my brother and sister about it. And my sister went somewhere and got a little booklet and she sent it to me. And there's also wonderful music on, oh, I don't know, YouTuber wherever with Ho'oponopono song, wonderful music. And so I used to sit on my bed cross-legged and I would turn the music on. And there's only four sentences in that sweet little practice. And when it was, please forgive me. I'm sorry. Thank you. And I love you. That was it. And I would play the music and I would sit on my bed and every face in my life flashed in front of me, every single from my fifth grade teacher that I didn't like, you know, all the way up to my mom and dad and, you know, my kids and my siblings and all of the, and thinking of all the forgiveness things that I need, all the things I wanted to say to them, all the things, all the times I was sorry, all the times that I wish I had done something differently, all the regrets in my life. I mean, my first husband, my ex-husband, I mean, we had a very challenging life together and a very challenging divorce. And all I could see was him sitting in light. All I could just see was him being that. And so I really, I don't know. That really worked for me somehow or other. So, yeah. And so, you know, I was home, you know, after mystery school, and we all said to each other as we were leaving, how are we going to do this? Oh my God. How are we going to do this by ourselves? We have this enormous, this wonderful support system down here, you know, and how is that going to happen? And in the meantime, right before I left here, my daughter, I knew she was going to have some surgery, some abdominal surgery. And so it was okay. I was going to go home and, you know, be supportive and do all that. Well, we get home, she has the surgery, and the next thing you know, she's got third stage uterine cancer. And I'm sitting there thinking, oh my God, are you kidding me? I remember you saying, don't think that once you say yes, it's going to be easy because sometimes all hell breaks loose. And I thought, well, this is all hell, you know? And so I kind of stunned. And I made a phone call to Susan and I said, you're not going to believe this, but this is what happened. She basically took a bucket of cold water and threw it in my face. She said, you know, that's an hallucination, right? And I thought for a second and I thought, you know what? It is. It really is. And so she said, maybe you'd like to talk to Lisa. And I said, yeah, I think I would. So we had a conversation. And then I said, do you mind if I would it be okay if I wrote a letter to David? And she said, sure. So the next thing I know, I get a letter from you. Very loving and kind. And it's the tail end of the letter. Maybe you'd like to come down for a couple of days. Maybe, you know, a period of time might be helpful. And then Lisa offered an invitation to come. And then Susan offered an invitation to come. And I thought, three strikes and you're out. You should go. I had that voice again. You better go. So, yeah, I made reservations and took care of all of that business. But this, but this was the thing. After that conversation with, with all of you, I could really see that this was my daughter's story. It wasn't mine. It really, and so I said to myself, you don't have to be sad or happy or angry or whatever you want to feel. All you have to do, you be the dreamer, stand outside and you watch this. And when you, when she needs you, step in. And that's all you do. That's, this is not your deal. And I didn't, I didn't have one tear. I didn't try to butt in to tell her what to do or anything. Even when she would say, Mom, what do you think I should do? You know what? It's really your decision. You, this is your, this is your boat. You have to drive it. And so, so as a, I mean, so she went through her process and, you know, I won't go into all of that. But the bottom line out of that whole story was that my daughter ended up with such healing. She was able to write the letter that she's been wanting to write for 30 years to her father. And she did it. And it, all of this cancer stuff brought it up. And she was, it, she was able to do it. And she's standing up. She's standing on her own. She is handling this and she's doing really well. She's gone holistic. She decided she'd want to be bothered with any of that stuff. So she's not going to do it. And so I just thought, wow, when you don't stick your finger in there and try and stir the pot, look what can happen. You know, so, so yeah. So that, that's kind of more or less the story. It's beautiful. I think that's such an insight into how you do have to listen within and you do have to follow. And that's the relationship that yoga Nanda was talking about that connection. I don't think there's anything more present that makes you feel more connected than those little prompts. And, you know, you even hearing that little inner voice and bunches of signs and symbols. You can't miss it. Oh, no. Signs and symbols, bright yellow posters. Oh, I mean, it couldn't have been crazier. And on the way here this time, it was even crazier. Because I, I still was still having that. Oh, that's the other thing. I contracted COVID three weeks before I was to come here. And I thought, oh, no, how's this going to work? And I thought, well, I'll be just one of those people who has, you know, a couple of days of being uncomfortable and you'll be, you'll be good. Well, it didn't work like that. At first week I was dragging in the second week. It leaves you with this little crazy cough that doesn't want to go away. And I thought, oh my God, how am I going to go down there? And every, my friends are saying to me, oh, I don't know. I don't know about this. I don't think you should go. All the doubt thoughts here, they come. You know, my friend said, well, you don't have a doctor down there. And what are you going to do if he don't feel well? And how are you going to handle this? And you still have a cough. And well, I tested negative. So I never, I would never have come if I hadn't. But, but, and I, I call Susan again. And right two days, maybe the day before I was supposed to leave. I said, Susan, I am not myself. I said, I don't, I'm not that great. I'm just coming out of COVID. I don't know if I should come. I don't know what to do here. And she, she's so funny. She said, you should come. She said, this happens all the time, you know, I mean, you know, talk about just wiping your ego off the map. You know, you should come. And I said, oh, I'll think about it. I said, I'm really not myself. And she said, you have an invitation. And I just said, yeah, I do. I'll come. You know, and that was, and that was that. But on the way to the airport, I just sitting there in my doubt state one more time. And I, I'm always looking for billboards now because now this is seems to be a thing with Jesus, you know, looking around and seeing what's out there. And the first thing I see is a big billboard and all it says is big GEO with a, with an exclamation point, you know, go. And the second one on the right hand side of the taxi said liberation. And the third one that I saw said, thank you for choosing that that point. I'm crying in the back seat. So it's 330 in the morning on the way to the airport. It's beautiful though, because one of the ways that people stay stuck in just an, we'll call it an intellectual attempt to grasp spirituality is writing it off as well. I can't hear guidance. So I better just stick with the words. And I did a live stream yesterday, which you saw where I was talking about Judaism and the Torah and the study, study, study, always books, books, books and study, study and all the dialogue back and forth. And then their own way they would pray, but probably maybe repetitive prayers, using the words again. And, and so when that's all you seem to know, if that's the familiar, and then you follow a prompt to get autobiography of a yogi, you come in contact with an amazing master and says all kinds of things, three of them, which just grab your attention like nothing you ever expected. You can see Jesus is like lifting you beyond what you perceived the status quo. We'll call it even the Course in Miracles status quo. And, and you had the blessings of a teacher that was very sharp metaphysically. So we want to honor that blessing. And yet those three things stood out. And then coming in contact with the Orantia Book, which is, you know, an amazing snapshot. I actually had students back in the 1990s and I had been to Roscoe myself around the same time. 1990, 1991 spent quite a bit of time there. And I had people, I was kind of transported myself already. So I had people who were there to translate even from many countries that would come and find me. And they would, with wide eyes, they, I was supposed to meet you or my husband just died and they would take me out to the little town of Roscoe. Let's go get lunch because I have to talk to you for a few hours. And I just need to be assured, reassured my husband is in a good place because I've had dreams, but I don't know anyone to talk to about these dreams or they think I'm crazy. So I had, mostly Jesus had me there in Roscoe to have a bunch of holy encounters with people from all over the world where I was just used to bring comfort and blessing and this deepening experience. But I see also that this experience of even what you read in the Orantia Book, it was part of taking you towards a leaping off point towards a real devoted life because once you come in touch with the teachings and the writings of enlightened being, of a master, then something gets activated that before that wasn't activated. It truly gets activated. And we're not talking about, you know, necessarily the many words, the darshan or the shakti energy or the disha or anything. It goes by many names and even Christians could call it a born again experience where suddenly their heart just expands and they feel Jesus and they feel a connection with God like a direct connection. But the important thing I think is, is that you're ready. When you're ready, then the symbols appear or even hearing me talk about bumpers, stickers and billboards and everything. It just gives us a mind permission to say, oh that little small still voice, thank you very much. And thank you very much for making it obvious. If my mind is doubting, you are coming, zooming into me with these signs and symbols and this inner voice and the combination of all that builds your confidence to go beyond, you know, like a Star Trek beyond to explore the universe. This is exploring the depths of the mind. You know, it really, really was. And, you know, for a long time I thought, oh, you know, I've wasted those years, all those 28 years. But I didn't because I built the, I didn't, you know, the spirit helped build scaffolding really. It was empty, but it was scaffolding. And by the time I found all of these teachings and you, then that filled up the middle. So the whole thing all worked together in the end. So it wasn't really a waste. You know, it was just, it was a long trip. It's kind of interesting because sometimes people talk in terms of like being in a career or something. Sometimes the women will say, wow, I hit something like a glass ceiling. Like I don't even, I was zooming along in my career and then this invisible glass ceiling just was like a lid that I didn't expect, you know, it was like, what is this? But I think even on the spiritual journey, there can seem to be these kind of glass ceilings where the mind kind of slips a bit into a, I'll call it almost like a resignation or a laziness because it simply doesn't know there's so much more. It surrounds itself with people and things like a cocoon. And it's kind of like that old Peggy Lee song. Is that all there is? Is that all there is? If that's all there is, then let's keep dancing. You know, it's almost like make the best of it based on what seems to be some kind of a ceiling. And oftentimes with a course of miracles, you know, people don't really want to talk about enlightenment or as Yogananda would call it, self-realization. Even though I'd say the course is packed, absolutely packed with focuses on that. Anyone who's read this section, the immediacy of salvation. You know, be not content with future happiness for it's not your just reward, for you have cause for freedom now. That's an amazing sentence. If anybody glosses over that and starts just looking at a lifetime of uncovering the ego, a lifetime of struggle, of fear, of doubt. And if the unveiling of the unconscious mind, which of course we know we can think like Carl Jung and many psychologists and psychotherapists and many spiritualities that point out, don't take the unconscious mind lightly. Certainly Ken would say that as well. Don't take it lightly. But the pierce through into what I call divine providence where you actually feel you're being carried experientially by the signs and symbols, by the presence underneath that. By the guidance, your testimony right there was peppered with guidance witnesses, just filled with guidance witnesses. Here I was. Here's what I saw. Here's what I did. I had the fear. I had the doubt. Then this appeared. I called so-and-so. And this, then my daughter's dog nest with third stage cancer. Well, I can't. And COVID, I can't. I'm not myself in COVID. But still the underlying premise is you are being guided and it's showing itself, even though there can be resistance at times, the guidance is still appearing. And when it comes down to that, when you even put it to the test and say, okay, I'm going to look through this thing and it has to have Mexico in there. New Mexico. No, not New Mexico. I said it has to have Mexico in there. And then boom, Mexico. Oh, let's see, then you follow. And to me, that's part of the listen follow that I think when it's spirituality just becomes about the scripture or the study of it or the trying to, I mean, I heard that for many, many years where I would go and do these many hundreds, thousands of gatherings. And then people would say, I would share something they would say, I get that intellectually, but and I would say, well, the but contradicts the to get that. If I said, I get that, but that it's basically saying, I don't get that. We have to have the but at the end. So you kind of now, almost just without your knowing the how, just with maybe the deep burning passion to know God getting activated in these ways, it's taken off. You know, for years, you know, reading the course, I mean, listen, some of it's not so easy to read in the first place with all the double negatives and the Iambic, you know, intameter and all the rest of it. I mean, it's not an easy course to read in the first place, but now when I read those pages. Oh, I mean, I Jesus just walks right in. He's there. We were right there. And I, I just couldn't do it before. I just couldn't get myself to that place. And it's an amazing master teacher. And you as well, both of you as you and Ken are, I mean, with some, I still didn't get it. I still couldn't grasp it. So I, what a grace, what a gift. I just, I, it makes my heart so happy that I finally get this that when I'm, what are you really doing here? You know, you have to do this work. You're not going anywhere. If you don't do this work, you can't. So it's all about the truth and it's all about asking it for me anyway, who am I? I want, I want to be part of that Christ. I want, I want that. I, I'm not playing around anymore. I'm, I've fiddled around for 28 years. I am honest. I, I want to know the truth now. That's it. The end. Yeah. I think I have met people who have told me that, that they studied the course for many years or even decades and they, they kind of missed that part about this is a course in mind training. I was interested in the masters from the Far East. I was interested in saints and mystics and having read all their writings and all what they went through and how it was daunting in their experience and dark nights of the soul and hitting a wall and after they'd kind of let go of what most people would consider most of the world, then they went down into a hole that was very surprising. They thought it would be peaches and roses and, and it was very black and they wrote about it. So to me that gave me a context. And then I think though I could really see what Jesus was teaching in the course is the Holy Spirit needs happy learners. The Holy Spirit is the spirit of joy. Holy Spirit's curriculum is a curriculum of joy. And I knew deep down inside that that was the key. But I think for my experience, like I actually did not have trouble reading the course. It was not a difficult book for me at all. There was one time Francis and I were in Australia doing a tour along the coast and at one point she just got the big smile on her face and she looked at me and she said, she said, you know that course back and forth and, and it actually isn't difficult for you at all. In fact, I had a friend who I met in Roscoe who, who came from England and she was in such a high state of mind with rosy cheeks and bursting with joy. And when we would go to go around somebody would say, who wrote this course and she would go, I did. And with the biggest sparkle and twinkle and not, not a bit of embarrassment or she was, she was just so elevated that she would say that repeatedly. I did with that kind of enthusiasm. I did. And so, but, but Francis was smiling me one day and she just looked at me and she said, she said, you knew this course before you got here. It's like people are talking about struggling with it so much and the way that it's written and everything. And it says, if you already knew it before you got here, it kind of, or, or you, and that's kind of the way my journey went because, because prior to going up and meeting Ken and Gloria at Roscoe and going to the, you know, the academy and so on and so forth. I had three revelatory experiences that where I went beyond time and space, I went into direct connection with God where the whole world disappeared. So prior to my first trip to Roscoe, I had had three disappearance of the universe, full blown, non perceptual, directly into the light experiences. And therefore, I was kind of, actually I wasn't struggling with the course at all. I initially, when I got it, I used it as an oracle where I would just pray and open the book and get my guidance that way for about two and a half years from like 1986 through maybe 1988 or so. And then the voice was loud and clear like it was for Helen. That's a advantage on the spiritual journey when you can hear it that clear because it's not just like with Helen, it was like, what I said was this, what you wrote was that now go back and then and don't change the words. It was Jesus working so closely with a very good scribe, but basically there was so much fear and resistance. It was like, what I said was this, what she wrote was that, go back and do this right. And of course, she called it insistent, like sometimes try to put the pen down and refuse to write or try to lose the course, leave it in taxicabs in New York City and then it came back to her. I tried everything she said. I couldn't get rid of the damn thing. She was not thrilled with the assignment. For me, it was like it was so came to me and through those revelatory experiences that what happened preceding me to going to Roscoe for the first time. And I have dear friends in Rochester and parts of New York all over really the world. But actually, I remember I was so into listen and follow at that point that it was, I think it was like 1990 and it was the winter time. And I actually was just wake up, do my course lesson, pray, listen, follow, use my Oracle. And actually Jesus was actually guiding me by that time very specifically. So I remember thinking, yeah, I think it'd be nice to go to Roscoe. And I had a very beat up little car. I was living very simply. And I was following the guidance. I had left 10 years of university and I'd left jobs behind. I'd left undone from so many things. I was kind of really rapidly in that way. And then with these mystical experiences, I was confident and fired up. I was like swallowed up in the Lord at this point before I go to Roscoe. So I'm thinking it would be nice to go to Roscoe. But I thought this car, I don't even know if it'll make it to Roscoe actually. It's a pretty good drive from Cincinnati to the Catskill Mountains. It sure is. So I thought that's a pretty good trip to the east coast. And so Jesus said, well, this morning I want you to go to a yard sale. I said, okay. So I had a, actually at that time, it was a Volkswagen Rabbit that was quite old and quite worn down. And actually the bottom of the passenger seat, the floor had rotted and rusted. And my dad sometimes would hop in the car and he said, what is the Flintstones? You know, like he said, I could see the ground outside. This was a pretty, pretty bad car. And I'm thinking, I don't even know if I could take that car. So I go to the yard sale and I'm in my car and on the way to the yard sale, it's only like 10 minutes away from my house. I was going, it's sputtering. And I'm like, huh, yep, this car is like, and then it sputtered and sputtered and then it died right in front of the house where the yard sale was. And I mean, it went off and I wouldn't. Oh my God. This is how Jesus, this is before going to Roscoe. So I go there, I get out and I go and it's a yard sale and I walk in the back and the whole family is there. There's father, mother and like five kids and every one of them, the father, mother and all the grown children were hosting the yard sale. They saw me and I would go up to them and they go, I know you. And then the next one would tell them, we know him. We know him. Where do we know him from? They all swore they knew me, but none of them could tell from where. And I thought, because I'm just at this point, I'm saying, what a recognition. I'm go to a yard sale, all five people, including the parents know me, but they don't know me. So I strike up very friendly, happy, talking, talking. I spend a while there. I'm just enjoying the holy encounters, which is really the only reason I go anywhere is for the holy encounters. And then finally, as I'm getting ready to leave, I just say, well, I'm going to go out. I'm going to go out. I hope my car starts because I think it died in front of your in the road right before you, in front of your house. And they said, oh, our son, hey, and they called the son, you're selling a car. Aren't you? And they said, yeah, I got a car. I'm selling in the garage sale. And I said, so I go back. He says, come on back. Let's take a look at it. It was a Chevy Chevette. It was a pretty old car. He said, I'm selling it because I have to get rid of it. My parents wanted out of the garage and I, it needs a starter. You won't even start, but it needs to start, but it runs. It's a good car except it needs a starter. So I started praying and I'm like, got to be kidding. I'm at a yard sale to get a car. And they all go, yeah, your car doesn't work. So the family got behind me and they pushed me down the street in my little Volkswagen rabbit that would not run. The family pushed me down the street to a mechanic. And they said, hey, his mechanic, we know. Here's David. His car won't start, but we have another car. We're going to sell him for $100. And it needs a starter. So we'll go back and we'll push that car too here. And told the mechanic, I said, yeah, if you want to keep the rabbit, you can keep the rabbit, but I need a car that I can drive. So they put a new starter in the $100 garage sale car that I got at the yard sale from the sun. And I went, now I'm ready to go to Roscoe. I got in the car and I just drove straight through. I think it was like over 14 hours. And it was snowing and ice was forming on the car. It was an old car, but it ran better than mine. And that's how I got to Roscoe the first time with lots of holy encounters when I got there. Because there were very devoted, of course, the miracles, amazing people. And my friend, Dorothy, who was, she said, I wrote the book. She was in that state of mind. Who wrote it? I did. She would say with confidence because she saw it was just a reflection of her mind. So that began, for me, on a very experiential road to the course. And then you and I have watched over the years. There was the copyright controversy. There was a one point as I'm just happily traveling around. I think there was seven concurrent different lawsuits going on at the same time. And people would ask me all about that. Who's the right side? And I would say, what book are you reading? Who's the right side? What book are you reading? Where does it say take sides in the course of miracles, and all of the pages? Or I would travel around, and wars would even break out. I would be doing so many gatherings. And I would just go from house to house, place to place, doing thousands and thousands of bookstores, basements, barbecues, backyards, teaching what I would learn, letting myself be used to let Jesus speak through me as a conduit, teach what I would learn so my mind could be free. And then sometimes the war would break out, and Jesus would let me go to like a store where they sell TVs, and he'd have me walk through the store to pick up just enough information about the war that I didn't even know was happening so that when I went to give the talk, it would be relevant. Jesus always wants to keep it relevant. Relevant use of symbols. Don't put your head in the sand and pretend it's not there. Just let me scoop it up, like scoop up. And then it would be used very humorously, where I would go down to Mexico. And one time I think I was in Monterey, Mexico, and I noticed that the people were so angry, even more angry and agitated than they usually are. And I said, what's going on? And they said, we are angry at our presidents. And I said, what do you mean your presidents? We're angry at your president, and we're angry at our president. We're a fear, politically, you know. And one time I went, Francis and I landed in Sweden, rural Sweden, and we got there about a day late. And the retreat had started the night before, because we had some travel delays. And when we got there, we were with this group in southern Sweden. And when we first got there, I could just see people were really angry. This was like an angry mob at a Course in Miracles retreat. And we were like, hi, how you doing? We greet everybody. Turns out they had hired a chef to do all the cooking for the thing. And the chef was one of these microbiotic things and prepared all the meals from this framework of really kind of a go green chef. And they didn't, where's our cheese? How are we supposed to make our cheese sandwiches? Where's this? And they were furious at, before we even got there, they were raging at the chef for the food that was being provided. And then we spent the whole time going into the teachings. One time we even, we were teaching I think in Arhus and a friend hosted us kind of in a, it was like a factory district of Arhus and right across the street from the place, from the loft where we were doing it was a slaughterhouse. So they were slaughtering animals right across the street. And every time we would go out, because it was a factory district to go eat or whatever, everyone in the workshop had to walk past the slaughterhouse and see the sights and smell the things and whoa, that all came up. So it's been like diving into practical application. And then you going to the mystery school, that's kind of an offshoot of these, I used to do these four and six month retreats, six weeks, no, four to six weeks, I'm thinking six months. I think, well, people who live here would say, that's how it feels now. I've been here, seems like forever, how many months? I lost track. But what it would do is we became so good at realizing people were coming to undo the self-concept that the only way we make space for the vibrant holy instant is to, through a process of safety and security and trust, slowly dismantling, letting the Holy Spirit dismantle the mind from these self-concepts. And it sounds to me like even your six weeks with the mystery school kind of took you to a place and after that call to Susan, that cold water call, that was a big aspect of starting to realize that everyone in the flock is on their journey. Everyone in the flock of birds will say has their own story and that you just need to keep an eye on what's going on with you. That's where the rubber meets the road. And it sounds like you've done that. That has been so helpful. I learned that here. Stay on your side of the street. You don't have to go poking around in everybody else's emotions and everything else. Don't get caught up in that stuff because it's a big distraction and you'll never be able to focus on what you're here to do. And if it hadn't been for going to mystery school first, I don't know if that would have happened, honestly. I mean, I think it was just part of the plan. Go here, learn this, go home, practice. And it totally works, I could tell you. It really works and I felt so free and I could love my daughter through all that ugly stuff and I didn't phase me. I still can't believe it, but it really didn't and I'm sure she felt so loved because I wasn't putting my two cents into everything she was trying to do that it propelled her into a place where she wouldn't have gone if I hadn't just stepped back and let her do what she needed to do. It's contagious this stuff. It really is. I think it's too. You have to go beyond what seems to be familiar to keep being lifted up into this state of I do not know what anything is for. Nothing I see means anything, but I need help. I need guidance. So there's a lot of non-dual paths that don't really even bring in the idea of guidance. It's very much focused on silence, on meditation. And Jesus addresses these things in the I need do nothing section, long periods of meditation, contemplation, fighting against sin. Your way will be different. A holy relationship is given you as a means of saving time. You are not making use of this course if you do not use what was made for you and is basically saying this is made for you. This is no accident. It goes back to what Yogananda was saying about find a community. I think in the industrialized Western world which is very much into the intellect and kind of even in Europe went off into there is no God, all kinds of things speculating and we'll call it empiricism, materialism, Newtonian science which none of that really takes you to the heart of God. It's actually a defense against God. And what I find with Yogananda saying to you find your community is that he understood before he passed away he understood the mechanism of how that mirroring and that reflecting helps you get in touch with what has been so denied from awareness and it becomes so denied that the mind comes up with intellectual schemes and concepts thinks it's actually awakening when in fact to quote Paul Simon in fact it's slip sliding away. The nearer your destination the more you're slip sliding away. It's actually a pretty ingenious plan by the ego to get so caught up in the concepts that even bantering around the concepts and that's what Judaism was doing, a lot of bantering of the Torah. You see that in your ancient book. It really gets into that big time. But you've experienced it with the Course in Miracles and many times people will tell me they say I had to find it. I was addicted to Facebook but the worst thing was the Course in Miracle groups and the debating and the constant bantering and people getting smashed for the first time here. Hi, what a beautiful day this is. No, God didn't create this day. Boom, just coming in for the first time. Wham, bam, bam, bam. So I have people that say and they said what was worse was trying to comment on the post and then they commented get their fingers sliced off. They were wondering where is the love you said was mine, all mine. That's one aspect of it. Another aspect of it is this idea that there's something wrong with communities. I think a lot of times people think of communities, they think of ashrams, they think of India, they think of masters and they're horrified because of the sense of autonomy, individual freedom, individual rights. There's a big strong ego attachment to all that and then it's just label and dismiss. This is a self-study pathway to God. This doesn't involve masters, this doesn't involve teachers. Of course, everything is a reflection of the mind but a lot of label and dismiss goes on. But I think it's like Jesus knows the prayer of the heart. When we're ready, it's just like it gets dropped in front of us out of biography of the yogi. After all those years of studying the course, there it just drops in. Out of nowhere. I think that's important too because it's not that we have to latch on actually in the introduction it says free will does not mean you can establish the curriculum, it means you can only decide what you want to take at a given time. Then back in the manual for teachers, he says you can't even choose the form of the curriculum. That's a mind-boggling thing because the individuals like to think I'm going to be a Buddhist or Hindu, course of miracles, I'm going to be Zoroastrian, I'm going to do something but that takes so much humbleness to start to realize that I just need to be open to the guidance and that even the form of my pathway is part of a prearranged plan that the script is written and it wasn't a personal eye that was I'm going to go this way and I'm through with this, I'm through with the Catholics, I'm through with, you know, it's not like that at all. It's actually just staying wide open and praying every day what do you have for me? Where would you have me go? What would you have me do? And that's, I think, where you ignite into the actual experience. That's the only prayer. That's it. And a nutshell. I remember years ago, Ken used to say all the time, he said, you know, the ego is foolproof, but it's not Godproof. And so, you know, it'll give you a run for your money. You better respect it, but no match. No match at all. Once Jesus uses the word like the ego is ingenious, but you start to realize that if you really pray sincerely and you really are open to the guidance and you just follow the guidance moment by moment, that is giving you. There's a simplicity to that and it actually turns more and more, I think, into an ease. Like you start to relax into it. Like it's not, my life is not my own. I don't have to figure out the future. Trust is showing me that everything that happened, there were no mistakes. Just the ego perception, taking something personally, like in the four agreements. You know, that one four agreement always jumps up like, oh yeah, that's the only issue. And then in the end, even with the topic of guidance, I think it has to be lifted up from this idea that the guidance is somehow to make a better personal you in the future. A better you in the future, still a person. And then you start to discover, wow, all of the guidance I've ever received is taking me to the present moment. It's taking me to this instant. And like children, you know, when they're sparkly and they lose track of time and space and mom and dad, they're so into the glee. It's amazing. Yeah, you know, one of the things I just found in my prayer life, lots of times in meditation and stuff, I would always end up in a puddle, you know, just crying and crying and crying. And my big prayer is, and I think it's time, maybe shifting an inch or so, I want to laugh more. I don't want to be, I mean, you know, I guess when you really love Jesus, you love him with your whole heart and there are a lot of tears that go along with that. But I think I'm ready to laugh more, you know, I'm kind of done with the tears. I want to, I read, I think it was in the disappearance of the universe and either Persa or Art, one of them said, well, you know, you know, Jesus really loves to laugh. I mean, he really loves a good laugh and a great joke. And he is very irreverent. So don't get all caught up in yourself, you know, political with your humor. I don't think you know anything. Yeah, I think, I think from all the years of working with the Course since 1986 and the 31 years of travel, what, what that did for me was help me just to get merged into the guidance. You know, that's where you start to really feel in your heart. You know, my mind holds only what I think we've got where you're not having the critics voice chirping away where you're not having this opposing influence just trying to always exert itself. You know, Jesus says, the ego speaks first, but it fades. It fades. It fades in the joy. It's the, you know, perfect love cast out fear and Jesus is perfect love. So the fear just disappears and then it's delightful. Then it's like, that's part of the happy dream that is the step to, back to eternity. But I always feel like little by little as we go into this deeper and deeper that, that is just such a surrender that you just get better and better at not taking anything personally, no matter what it is that you're experiencing and, and that's because your perceptions shifts so much. You're, you're not reading any meaning into things and you feel more and more like the dreamer of the dream where you just, you were reminded, watch this, have a good laugh, let's have a good laugh together. Yeah, another, and it turns into a comedy show. I mean, even when I have little meetings here, I'll be, start into something, start laughing and then just ding, get a message that's even more funny. And then I share it and we all burst into laughter. It does, seems like that's the fruits of the spirit is the laughter. Hallelujah for the laughter. Oh yeah. That's, that's for sure. Yeah. It's for sure. Yeah. This has been quite a trip. Boy, you couldn't have told me that after dragging along for 28 years that in the next five years, my whole life would be so different and I would feel so differently and be capable of loving in a way that I never thought I could. And even with my, my kids, my children came from my first marriage and there, there was just a lot of unhappiness, you know, and my kids really took a beating and I had a rough relationship with my daughter. It was just really hard, you know, and a lot of things happened that I didn't know anything about and that was part of the problem, but that, but that didn't help out the situation. And when I see the healing that's gone on between my daughter and myself, it blows me out of the water. I mean, I've been working on it for a long time, but this has just put a rocket on it somehow or other. You know, I don't see her as a daughter anymore at all. It's crazy. The world went away. I see her as a woman, somebody who's got her own mind and her own thoughts and her own journey and then it's not mine at all. In the same with my son. I, they have their life. I have mine, you know, and it kind of works out better. You are demonstrating that the release from enmeshment, the release from codependency, the release from specialness, let's just call it specialness, that we came here and the ego set up quite a world with these family relationships and even the languages we speak and the countries we're in and, you know, and tried to take something very specific and have our mind get riveted as if we're it. And then the pops, the great insights come. It reminds me of Jesus, you know, teaching who is my father, mother, sister, brother. He that does the will of our father in heaven is father, mother, sister, brother. In the Orantia book it even says that Mary was coming forward. Oh yeah, I was surprised about that. Oh my goodness. That throws it even a deeper context in the whole thing or like when Jesus was arrested and the authorities were taking him and they were going to take the, just beat him, just beat that body of Jesus and the apostle had followed along to come close. I think maybe it was Peter to come close maybe to go in and then got into the same room where Jesus was and they were ready to beat him and Jesus just turns over to his beloved apostle and just nods. You can leave now. Knowing how intense it would be for the apostle to watch. I think it was John. Or maybe John, it was John, yeah. So, but those little nuances show the love and the sense of everything being taken, even little scenes like that, you get a perspective of it's all about the love and how the spirit never gives us anything more than we can handle because we're meant to grow in faith and expand in trust and not be feeling like we're thrown back. We're to move forward, opening up. So I had the same appreciation but actually when I had those students back in the 1990s that were saying, well, the course is great David but it's just, a lot of it is just way over our heads. It's not practical and relevant at all. So I said, well, let me go dig around. I found the Rancher book. I found the last teaching on the life and teachings of Jesus. So I made a book for my students called the Fish Book and it had like a salmon cover and just a fish on the front. And it had teachings from a course of miracles and all the many parables, sermons, everything from the Rancher book all into one teaching device. So that was, there was only four copies printed. Is that the teachings of Jesus book? This was no, this was with early students. It was literally, I had the Rancher, the last section of the Rancher in with course teachings that I pulled to bring the metaphysics together with the examples. Because in the course there's, it just, Jesus makes one reference to the prodigal son story, but not even going into detail. It's not a book of parables. It's a book of fantastic metaphysics. And I think for me too, it's transfer of training. I know like with Ken and Gloria and like with many people the temptations for lawsuits, the temptations to take a side to take a stand to, as he would say, be normal. But when you go into the really the depth of the teaching, in my defenselessness, my safety lies. Somebody smites you on one cheek, turn the other cheek. You know, if I defend myself, I am attacked. If you really go deep enough, you go into mysticism and you go into mastery and that mastery is not going to look like normal. I always, when people say, should we be normal? I say, well, actually look at Jesus that if you read your book, that's the that's the least normal human life ever in the history of human life. So what you have to do is you have to take it so deep that, but at the beginning I got so into divine providence, because when you're just traveling all over the country to 49 states and then you start to travel around the world to 44 countries, it's really out of your hands. You cannot bring the truth into the illusion. You cannot. You have to rely on guidance for everything. You have to rely on guidance to take care of absolutely everything. And that's what Jesus told me at the beginning. He said, if you'll do miracles with me and let me speak through you, I will handle everything of time and space everything food lodging travel who I'm to meet where I'm to go you mean you will orchestrate absolutely everything. He said, yeah, I'll handle everything that doesn't matter if you stay focused on what does matter. And that's what took me into mysticism from the beginning. That's why I wasn't tempted by taking a side in the copyright controversy. That's why I wasn't tempted by I would go to the places in one trip that ended up being the ones that were fighting each other in the copyright controversy. I was I was visiting all of them and that's why when they said which side are you I'm like, what book are you reading because on one trip I was out I went one trip in 1991 I went out Southwest Circle of Atonement Robert he was married to Susan way back in 1991 and I went off and I went up the coast and I'm going up California and people are saying well if you go to San Francisco just make sure you avoid the California Miracle Center and I said why should I avoid them and they said they started a church it's just it's terrible and the ministers are gay and bisexual and they said please don't go guess where I went I was there I was going down and I came to Wisconsin and they had a place called Wisconsin Dells and they said oh whatever you do do not go there but I was guided by Jesus so when the copyright controversies come out and there were seven different lawsuits going these were the lawsuits of all of my friends and when I would go online people would say please do a teaching to teach there was one a big online like online forum going on and they said please go on and set it straight please these people are crying out for help and I said okay I'll go on and they said speak on the meaning of what a cult is come on to the forum and speak well it was packed with not so much with people that were following Ken but it was packed with Mary and Williamson followers and Endeavor Academy and so when I went and did the whole teaching on cult thinking I would not speak on the specific I would just say let's talk about cult thinking and spiritual guided holy spirit thinking and let's use the whole thing for just discernment between mind and everything so I went and I went through the whole thing at the end everybody was coming on with comments a lot of people who were following Mary Ann said there thank God David came that proves for once and for all that you people are a cult and all the Endeavor people came on and said what do you mean it's just clearly clearly what he said proves that we are not and I was just like that's just so much a testimony to perception is selective that you will just call forth the evidence and how Jesus would speak in parables with for those that have the ears to hear let them hear you know he would just offer his graceful deep profound transcendent teachings and then like take it take what you want from it but you ultimately can only receive this when you go purify your heart when you allow this purification to occur so it's it's beautiful because that's I think all we're here to do is to shine our light and to actually be friends with everybody and that's why it was funny for me when I was traveling there's three lawsuits going David what's going on four no there's five course of no six no there's now there's seven course of miracles lawsuits this is crazy and it's like but how does that affect your practice you have the Holy Spirit and Jesus in your mind nothing of laws of this land are going to get between you and and hearing the Holy Spirit's voice there's nothing external that can actually block you that can stop you that can even delay you that can hold you back unless you want it unless you still have a part of you craving that specialness and whatever so to me what a rich time we have both walked through you with the course in nineteen eighty nine and me eighty six and then our time with Ken we probably were crisscrossing along the way we probably met up there and we look a lot younger when we met say that again now they're like what are these two old geezers about the course we're young and vibrant and if you add our years together it's up over a hundred and forty oh my god that sounds like what that sounds like Ramtha or something that's like we're like the voice of Ramtha together yeah and you've got your purple odd and your maroon and I've got my blue and yeah there you go yeah yeah well I don't know if we have a roving like if anybody you know this is your chance we this is your chance to ask the old geezers hahahaha we're here now hahahaha we're not making promise we're not making a lot of promises here but we're here now so if anybody would like to uh ask a question this is this is your chance it's all quiet here now we probably have a chat room and we've just stirred up there's like a thousand reactions on there and it's so nice and quiet here you know what Joanie's job is she likes to go around and she picks flowers they let me off easy I think they were afraid that I was so old that I was going to fall or something hahahaha cut flowers you got a little thing to go around look at my tool hahahaha yeah yeah cooking flowers cooking food hahahaha quiet group we must really uh Dave and I have a question yeah that I have I'm not sure about this you know in the eastern you know religion self realization all those people for them it's all about chakras you know energy centers that's not that's still form right so that's not spirit yeah that I always when people ask me about the chakra system you know one is one is one and seven is not one and then when they say but what about the trinity and I say well this is good one three the Jesus says in the chorus that the levels of the trinity do not interfere with one another so here he is talking about the triune you know the trinity father son holy ghost but he's saying there's so much harmony that it's really basically appearing as three but actually one and even the function of a creator creation Christ and a bridge we'll call the Holy Spirit the bridge but then he says the Holy Spirit is actually an eternal creation so once you wake up you don't need a voice the voice was just part of you believing you were in a far country of time space and needed help needed guidance so yeah with the chakras with the Kundalini energy and the spine these are all things a lot of times in the east they talk a lot about like ethereal bodies and Jesus is coming in with I am not a body I am free he's he's saying go for the light so I think for me the revelatory experiences were very very helpful because I had such a direct contact with abstract light that those things didn't even come to mind I wasn't fascinated with chakras I wasn't fascinated with Ayurveda diets or postures or poses or Kundalini energy and of course many people that I met were having a lot of those experiences but that was also in their concepts of what they were raised with even karma you know when people say karma you know like you're paying for things that you did in the past you come to the course and look at the holy instant it's like this piercing of the veil it's like seeing that no the past is not causative the past never caused anything for us it's a present cause called God the creator and Christ the effect of that present cause how revolutionary that is but I do find that in this world you know the course saying a holy relationship has given you as a means of saving time the sleeping mind is still tempted to do a little mix and match and Ken was very good at addressing the course is not Christian science the course is not religious science it's not this and this I enjoyed seeing the similarities and just asking Jesus okay bring this home here I want the direct experience I'm not going to get into a synthetic contrast thing I want that experience and I think it helped me traveling when I was in India I was in Delhi I got to meet so many different people from so many different paths but I kind of got in I'll call it the Jesus tractor beam early on raised Christian and then I got in with the course I got like really and then I had the revelatory experiences and then I could just feel the connection and love and started to be able to just let Jesus put the words in my mouth whether I was in a Hindu temple whether I was in a mosque whether I was in a Christian science church and so forth to me it was all about the love all about the connection and letting Jesus use the words to show me that connection it wasn't about this philosophy versus that philosophy or this or that I actually that's some of the things I think with Ken being raised Jewish and then at the Abbey of Gethsemane kind of converting to Catholicism and then going through the course I could see early on when I was reading Ken's writings that he would say you know the Jesus of the course and Jesus of the Bible and Jesus was in my mind laughing going it's just me don't put me in this book or that book I don't think I fit don't think I fit in either one of those books I'm the Lord I'm the way the truth of life but by the time I was going to those first lectures in Roscoe like in my little yard sale car I was hearing Jesus so clearly so I was getting Ken was giving the lecture and I was getting the talk from Jesus on Ken's lecture you can only imagine how helpful where it's on where it's off Ken got a little bit into the level confusion thing too and basically Jesus talks very clearly in the course about level confusion but Ken set up a system that was a little different than what Jesus was talking about so he was telling me well David it's really simple that if you believe that anything of time and space is causative you've got some level confusion only the mind is causative there's nothing outside the mind and it's not a comparison between right mind wrong mind there's eternity or the split mind it's actually day by day are you willing to practice what I'm teaching you are you willing to see that food is not causative food doesn't make you fat or lack of skinny are you willing to use it with climate are you willing to use it in relationships are you willing to go see everything as your mind and it's you're never being influenced nobody ever upset you you've never had an upsetting situation ever your mind interpreted the situation in an egoic way through the filter and that brought the upset not that's why the mind training is so important it's the only way you're going to figure that out yeah it's almost like my friend Dorothy you know she was at Roscoe for some years and she was in the kitchen and also in the garden but she finally requested she said during the workshops and lectures could we have speakers installed while we're preparing the food and then Ken said oh yeah that's a good idea so they could listen in then everybody would be in the workshop and they would be taking notes lots of notes and then they would put the notes down put the pen down and go to the kitchen to get their food and there's Dorothy standing behind the the bar where you get what you're going to get and looking at her and taking some food and going too salty then the next person not enough salt and Dorothy then Dorothy would say I can't believe it they take all those notes and judge the food that's right you see it was kind of fascinating for her because she was like into practical application and that's what you're bringing up here the point of transfer of training is to transfer those brilliant teachings those every day what an amazing workbook lesson but to transfer it to everything and everyone without exception so it's so great you know you're here you say you're 81 but you're just in a twinkly your eyes are twinkling you're like a child who's just I do feel like I'm waking up you've now got the keys to transfer of training which is so amazing because then you get more and more feeling like everything's telepathic you start to start to see things more in your mind that's like does this thought feel good no it must not be real versus being a person the biggest trap I find in this world is that there's a steadfast belief that you can bring the truth into illusions and that's one thing that was so great with Ken over and over the metaphysics no you have to bring the illusions to truth but when you start to do it experientially it gets kind of interesting it gets really activated because you start to realize wow so all this time I was thinking of myself as a person in the world and now this starts to loosen I start to have these signs and symbols showing up I start to have these deep prayers these deep meditations where I start to realize that you can't really spiritualize matter it's like Mary Baker Eddy was teaching there's no mind and matter there's no life, truth, substance, intelligence and matter but experientially wow talk about a whole new world a new fantastic point of view like the Aladdin song I was singing the other yesterday that takes us into like an exciting adventure and and I think that's what you're witnessing for me and for all of us is that here 28 years of thinking I'm on my I'm on my way I'm on my way and then suddenly out of my I'm well he's on he's been he's really on his way what devotion whoa and then the steps come even to the mystery school you know and all the thoughts about I'm 81 or this and how will I deal with this and it's Mexico my God Jesus doesn't really want me to go to Mexico but I first came down and did my first you know retreat in Guadalajara and some of you have heard this story but I a friend of mine there was actually a man from Cincinnati who was supposed to set up two gatherings in Guadalajara and he just forgot about the second one so after the first one we were like where do we go next and he said what and we said for the second retreat and he said whoops so we came up to I he which is right here and I stayed with Reverend Tim and this and that and I was just praying meditating okay go with the flow alright one retreat that's the plan right before I was leaving I there was a big real estate book that was there in this his house Reverend Tim's house and Francis and my friend Suzanne were there and Suzanne Francis had been with me for years Suzanne just said please don't let David see this book my God if he sees this book we could end up in Mexico she was raised Mormon and the same kind of feeling like Mexico so I saw the book I opened it up and this was the house and I said can we get in to see it on the way to the airport and thus again Jesus's plan dropping things in totally unexpected and eventually it kind of it works well down here but also I think it's the perception of time coming down here mañana mañana and it's a different perception of time which is just proving Einstein had it right with his relativity and the things I showed that Saturday this is like an experiential training ground for the mind and I always say I joke now I really get like 90% through your mind training and the last 10 the ego is going to take a stand like the Alamo you're not going all the way with this I'll get you in the end then Jesus counters with I'll send him to Mexico that's it and then you come and you go holy moly nothing you can't count on anything of the world and Jesus is like good good you're you're getting it you're getting there so it's a great joyful adventure and I just want to thank you for coming on to do this because we're just doing this for the whole universe it's just fun I knew we would just have fun we did this much preparation none I was wondering about that that's our 145 experience and zero preparation that's the over the hill gang let's get the geezers out there and have some fun so I guess there's no we've got our microphone but nobody wants to share anything ask anything okay if there's anybody that wants to type in a quick question now's your chance well okay I have a friend who is a mystic then how do we release the illusion of separation okay we release the separation through mind training as far as your friend who's a mystic who's ill follow Joni's advice that she did for herself with her daughter it's your mystic story it's none of your business actually because sickness as Jesus says sickness is only the mind can seem to be sick there's no such thing as a sick body it's always all illness is mental illness that's a beautiful line from Jesus and then the the first one what was that one Kundalini and energy Chakras yeah well from the ancient Indian teachings Vedas and everything all the inquiries and studies it seems to be it's just a stepping stone idea to come back to the mind because even energies centers in the body that seem to be in different parts of the body and have different things like the crown chakra different from the base chakras and so forth but these are all stepping stone ideas and I'm quite aware of those very well aware and I've had people that even studied and followed Yoganada saying he still seemed to believe that the creator had something to do with the world creating the world and again that's just stepping stone ideas to if you really go with Jesus this is the way the truth in the life and it just takes you beyond the concepts into a direct experience and it also takes you into the Beatitudes weren't they lovely those Beatitudes in the Bible that everyone's been saying those sound wonderful my gosh I would love to have attitudes like that and Jesus is like yeah those are your natural attitudes those are your being attitudes or like Abraham Maslow reached the top of self actualization and the B values that we're talking about but what we could say is that all energy whether it's Kundalini energy in the spine whether it's energies in the seven chakras whether it's vortexes and energy in different locations they talk about vortexes of energy in Sedona and different parts all of that is part of the made up illusion because energy itself if you go back even quantum physics they go back to the quantum field where they say everything is connected and everything is energy but it's not talking about an energy that is of this world Einstein would tell you that what he looked at the world he saw that there was something called the speed of light that was constant in the cosmos but even that is just a reflection of the consistency of the light of heaven that's beyond the cosmos because even the speed of light who you are doesn't have speed because there's no higher or low speed you can't say well I'm just a low speed Christ and my partner we have problems she's a high speed Christ and I'm a low speed Christ you see how funny it sounds when you put high speed or low speed but this is the talk of energy you know I remember going to course groups and they would say I was having such a great day and then I met this person in the afternoon there was such low energy I'm saying so you got unhappy because you met a low energy person yeah I of course was high energy I came across my path with their low energy I said what does that mean? negativity they were negative but see what Jesus is saying is there's no world outside your mind if you perceive negativity you believe it if you perceive attack and grievances you believe it it's not true but you believe it so you know he says I am responsible for what I see I choose the feelings that I experience and the goal I would achieve and everything that seems to happen to me I ask for and receive as I have asked whoa you can't be a victim if it's all your mind there's no victimization in one you need two you need an inner and an outer so to me that's what I say the whole workbook of A Course in Miracles is the belief in inner and outer wouldn't that be a fun realization that there is nothing outside of me and that me is a beautiful mind that is the salvation of the world the salvation of the world depends on me I know that sometimes the very sincere Christians will read that lesson and go well there that's only Jesus is the salvation of the world and how can you say the salvation of the world depends on me if Jesus is the only Savior and then Jesus is in the mind saying you're me I'm you we're the same one you haven't realized it but you will it's your destiny to realize that there's only one of us and that's a deep teaching now to practically live that every day when you're on the highway and someone cuts you off you're me thank you thank you for cutting me off thank you for not blowing your horn or turning on your turn signal thank you you start with starting to throw your bubbles of blessings towards everything because that's forgiveness is that the atonement is the awareness that the separation never happened and if it really never happened then what is this grievances what are these preferences you know what I noticed well a while back that you know when you see something that just looks horrific on TV or something or somebody's condemned to whatever like dead men walking like the other day I'm finding myself not seeing them guilty anymore there isn't any you didn't do anything you know that starts to turn on and you say wow yep nobody's guilty here nobody that's the greatest we're just to remember the innocence and so I think it comes with trust though I mean you following these signs and symbols you know starts to build this feeling like really deep feeling that I'm wow I'm really cared for even with my preferences or even with my doubts it doesn't seem to matter to this holy presence it still continues to to provide for me to show me the way in pretty obvious ways you know three signs just before you came down here those are like those are amazing and it's important to share that too because then when you share it then I think someone says oh my gosh I need to pay attention to the signs even if I'm not hearing an inner voice I can pay attention to the signs you know Joni's doing it I can do it too she looks like she's having fun she's 81 and she's having fun watching signs and I can do it too you see how it builds the confidence yeah that's so beautiful it does and I said why shouldn't why can it be fun why do we have to hold it so darkly and of course you have to just acknowledge if it seems dark then there's obviously a lesson there but then once you kind of get into the flow of this and follow then the Holy Spirit and these happy learners that must mean that you just are a willing learner to follow the guidance merge with the guidance right before we did this when you said we're going to do something together of course of course it all came rushing in like oh my god you can make a fool out of yourself you don't even know what you're talking about here we go all of it I woke up at 4.30 in that morning I shared it in the group the other day and just this these icy fingers of fear that everybody's experienced that and likes me squeezing your heart you know and I heard that voice say you don't have to listen to that you don't have to listen don't run don't run and I thought to myself yeah I don't have to listen to that I'm not going to run but it was good to know you could shift gears you don't have to believe that so this two-week visit down here and it's a beautiful testimony how we grow stronger in the truth how our faith expands how our trust expands and how that's the most important thing it was never about the specifics I really like that part where after the whole bringing the course in Helen did and then the whole publication thing and years that before Helen passed you know Jesus just really told her heart to heart it really wasn't about the course I love you and it's like oh my gosh that puts everything into perspective even our collaborations and everything that we seem to do together to shine our light it's all a big I love you and that in the end is the one thing that has the meaning that is the meaning that's huge and you do feel that love you really really do just want more all the time yeah I know you have tears of love and joy rolling down your cheeks and like uncontainable feeling okay well thank you everyone for joining us it's such an honor to be here with all of you and I always like that when I would travel around to meet people who have been into spirituality even for a long time I would just be there like a sponge just sitting at the kitchen table having a cup of coffee just smiling and thinking thank you God this is saving me thousands of years this person has walked through now I don't have to walk through it I have a nice lunch with them and then I just Alpha and the Omega are together okay thank you all