 Chris, man, how are you doing, brother? Man, weird times. I'm doing very, a lot to be grateful for, but definitely unprecedented, just weird times. How has this affected your life? So I guess, thankfully, so we work from a home office now. We used to have an office that everybody went into, and then we utilized about two years ago. So it hasn't really disrupted our schedule. I would say the weirdest thing right now is just the gyms are closed, and the trail that I usually ride my bike on, nobody's wearing masks, so I'm freaked out to go out there. So I just feel like really claustrophobic right now, but I don't know, that's so minor compared to what other people are experiencing. So just really grateful to be able to be productive, and we have the internet and stuff like this digitally, and without that, I'd be going crazy. So how about you? Yeah, same thing, man. We went remote about a year ago, so we haven't been really affected by this whole, leave the office, but the one thing was interesting. I went out to go do push-ups at a park, like literally across my house, and no one was in the park, by the way, empty, like fucking empty, and I'm doing push-ups in a cop role by, and like gives me one of those like stairs. I'm like, really? I'm like, I would understand if there's like 20 people in the park, but I'm here, it's a fucking ghost town. I swear there's probably no one near me for like 400 fucking meters. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. Here in Austin, it feels like everybody's like just ignoring it, and you look out at the trail, and there's literally hundreds of people everywhere, and very strange, I feel like some places are taking it more seriously than others. Yeah, but the thing with Austin, you guys are good because you pretty much have a warm climate all year round. In Toronto over here, we have a brutal winter, and so you're telling us Canadians as soon as there's some sun out that we can't go out, come on. Yeah. We have six months of hibernation, fucking to begin. We've been doing quarantine, we do quarantine every year. Yeah, I guess you're used to it, but yeah, you want to get the fuck out of there. Yeah, yeah. I feel you. So what have you been seeing in the fucking markets, man? Both the Dow and crypto and S&P have been doing some crazy things. You know, I personally love volatility and times like this where things get shit. I know it freaks a lot of people out, and there's definitely, I don't want to downplay the uncertainty that we have, because that's real. But as far as trading opportunities, that's my background, is actively trading and investing. That's where I thrive. I don't day trade anymore, like for about a decade in my 20s, like my primary thing was day trading the stock market and futures market. And for multiple reasons, I stopped doing that, but whenever we have, like, you know, just talking about Bitcoin, when Bitcoin panics, I get very, very interested and happy because, you know, for example, like last month, we dumped from 8K to 4K in 24 or 48 hours almost. And when everybody was literally just shitting their pants, like we were in there scooping up the bottom. So I love opportunities like that. That's on the market side. Obviously, in real life with the implications of the virus, that's all really bad. But when it comes to, like, trading opportunities in stocks and, you know, crypto and gold, I mean, there's just opportunity everywhere. So I know it's not really popular in the crypto space to be optimistic about the stock market, but I am. Like, I don't see this as an into the world scenario. It's going to be tough, and it could get uglier before it gets better, but I'm long-term an optimist. So you think from our current levels, you don't think someone will do more of a drop, or what do you perceive? In stocks, sir, Bitcoin? Yeah, yeah. Stocks, I have no idea, man. So the stock market is forward-looking, right? And, you know, we've already had a 30% to 40% haircut, you know, depending if you're looking at the Russell or the Dow or NASDAQ or whatever. So we've, I feel like the markets have been basically pricing in the current models that we're seeing so I'm focused a lot on, you know, like, just expected new ICU cases, right? Like that chart that I think is something that we can kind of model into the future. Obviously, the implications of everything being shut down, that's damn near impossible to like predict how that's going to play out, right? And I'm not a macro guy. I'm not smart enough to come up with like a hypothesis about that. All I can do is manage my capital base and I can just tell you what I'm doing, which is we've been buying the dip here, but I'm still in my overall portfolio about 35% cash. So if we go lower, I'm going to be able to buy lower and the only way that I would really get hurt is if we have a full-on 1930s-level depression and if we do, I mean everybody's screwed. So like, I feel like it pays to be somewhat optimistic and to, you know, buy the dip in the stock market. I just don't know where the low is and how long this is going to last, but I can just tell you, you know, thinking multiple years out, I'm bullish. I'm bullish on humanity. And I think we're going to, you know, as soon as we get past this virus issue, people are going to want to get back to work. They're going to want to participate in the economy. They're going to want to spend things and travel and, you know, there will be a segment of the population that's like severely fucked financially that won't be able to get back in right away, but there's also a lot of people that will. So I don't know, man, that's- You don't think so the small businesses got wrecked during this? Oh yeah, for sure. I mean, there's going to be long-lasting implications. You know, for example, I was talking to my cousin who's in the restaurant business. He like manages this private group of high-end restaurants on the East Coast and just hearing his perspective on what the fallout's going to be like, there's definitely going to be a lasting impact, you know, for at least a few years in some of these market segments. I just, I don't know what to make of it. And I'm just going to let kind of price action be the guide. And it's really hard for me to kind of model anything out further than six months. I just, I can't think that far. There's too many variables. There's too many unknowns. But yeah, I mean, some industries are going to suffer for a long time. But, you know, I do think the government is trying to throw all the bullets they have at this. The whole kitchen sink. Yeah, I mean, you know, and I know there's opinions on both sides. You know, it's really popular in the crypto community to hate the Fed and to talk about how this is a pyramid scheme and all that. I'm an outside observer. I don't really fall into one camp or the other. I'm just trying to think like an investor and look where the opportunity in the risk is. And right now it's just, it's really difficult to know more than a few months out what's going to happen. And so you mentioned you don't day trade because you did that earlier. So what are you doing now more that's like trend trading? Yeah, so I'm a swing and position trader. So back in the 08 financial crisis, I was a full-time day trader trading basically stock index futures. And that was amazing because it was unprecedented volatility. The competitive landscape was a lot lower back then. Like 0809 is really when high-frequency stuff started to pick up, but it didn't dominate the trading volume like it does today. There's been a squeeze on trading firms. You know, even the gold men's and the best of the best funds out there, it's been a race to the bottom, right? Like who can have the fastest execution? Who can have the smartest PhDs? I didn't want to try to compete in that space anymore because quite frankly, I can't. That's why in 2013, I went all in on trading Bitcoin is because, A, I thought it was cool as shit. And I thought we were going to see some massive growth, which we did. B, it was much, much less competitive. It was like basically trading Bitcoin in the early days. It was like shooting fish in a barrel. And it's somewhat of what it still is compared to the stock. And I just find like the longer my holding times are, the more profitable I am. You know, like the more trades I take and the more active I am, the worse my results are, where the more I just go heavier on longer term plays and catch swing trades and momentum trades, but also have different capital buckets for like longer term position trades. That's where I've made a life changing amount of money. And that's where I want to continue to focus because it's less stress and more profits. And so when you mentioned these long term positions and Bitcoin still being kind of the wall, it was, are you doing like classical like stop losses? Like what's your strategy for that? Or like, let's say, how do you execute that? Yeah, so, OK, so from the high level overview, so I have a few different capital buckets. So over here, I have my like my cold storage, you know, hardware wallet, like never going to touch this Bitcoin buried in the backyard somewhere kind of thing, where I don't really care what the price is. Other than every time we come off of a boom bus cycle when prices are depressed and everybody's calling for the death of Bitcoin, that's when I just accumulate, I buy Bitcoin, stuff it away and don't think about it, right? So that's capital bucket number one. Number two is like my multi-year position trading bucket, where I trade the bigger market cycles, right? And that's anywhere from six to 18 months, usually on those types of plays. And then there's my short-term capital bucket, which is like swing trades, where I'll look at a chart, have a very precise trade plan, like I'm taking this breakout with this stop loss and this fib extension measured move as my target, in and out, very disciplined. And then I have my fourth bucket, which is like venture capital, like investing in, you know, security tokens or startups or basically where I think I'm going to lose all that money, but I could get a hundred extra turn, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, just, I try to diversify between those different time frames and buckets. Yeah, I was talking to Tom Basso about like trading heuristics and creating systems. I think a lot of people who try trading, I'm not a trader, I'm the laziest investor of all time. I just want to set it and forget it. Amen. You know, once I make a, you know what I mean, like I don't have the patience nor the like, like even to sit down and make, I don't care, like here's my money, I'll see, give me my return in five years. Yeah. And yeah, we're talking with Tom Basso like two episodes ago and he's like, listen, people overcomplicate things. At the end of the day, like remove your emotions from it, put the proper systems in place, follow the systems, follow the heuristics and for the most part they work. Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot of people overcomplicate trading. They look at all these indicators and time frames and they end up over trading and revenge trading and just, if you just understand like basic human psychology and then like behavioral finance concepts and apply those to a chart, that's really what it is. It's like, the price chart is nothing but a visual representation of the actions of all market participants, meaning like what the fuck did everybody do and you can see the story behind that where people get caught up is trying to find the magic and the price action or predict exactly what's going to happen instead of thinking in terms of probabilities and possibilities like a chess player or a poker player. It's very simple, but it's also very easy to overcomplicate. Yeah, what's your take on the whole like leverage scene in crypto? Like fucking crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's terrible, man. I mean, obviously you can't trust the exchanges. They're not your friend. They will liquidate you and fucking take your money and most people that trade on those leveraged exchanges, they don't understand margin. They don't understand risk management and that's why almost all of them will lose, you know? And it's kind of like survivorship bias where you have somebody that makes money kind of like on the, I don't know if you've seen the Wall Street bets subreddit. Oh, for the Reddit. I'd go there for shits and get, it's the best. Amazing. Just know that every person on there, except for maybe one or two lucky people will lose everything, right? But the rules there, you have to do YOLO. You can't do, you can't be rational. There's no rational thinking there. Yeah, it's the exact opposite of what actual like successful discipline investors and traders do. So in that regard, it's like, it's entertaining but it's also kind of sad because like, it sucks in a lot of new people into the market and they look at these screenshots, which by the way, I think a lot of them are photoshopped, you know, showing, oh man, I turned 2K into 8 million. You know, it's like, okay, for every one person that did that, there's 10,000 that lost everything. Everything, yeah. What's interesting about Wall Street bets, not just Wall Street bets is the fact that, you know, apps such as, for example, Robinhood who really streamlined the usability, the UI UX, you have now a whole generation, whether it's like millennials or like GeneXus or whatever is below millennials, who have instant access to financial products at it's almost like native like Facebook where like, I don't need to know about, I don't need to see a complicated trading platform like Questrade or any of these kind of terminals. It's literally a 2D app or like buy, sell, puts options. And so you now have an army of millions of people around the world that have access to this that really don't know what they're doing but participating. Yeah. Yeah, it's the new generation of penny stock traders, you know, like crazy years ago when penny stock pump and dumps were a big thing. You know, that was kind of like my generation, everybody was like, oh, you can follow these penny stock gurus and get rich quick just by buying or shorting these penny stocks. Now, nowadays, I agree. I mean, I think there is something good about having better on ramps for people to get interested in the stock market. And look, we all, everybody that's ever made a career out of investing or trading has made all the mistakes in the beginning, right? And that's why I tell people like, goal number one should be like, you got to survive. You have to learn how to survive in the markets or else pros will come in and take everything you have. And once you learn how to survive, then you can worry about thriving. But yeah, just like this feeling of easy money in the stock market, which, look, a few months ago, we were coming off of the biggest bull market in history. So I thought a lot of people were looking at that as the way to get super wealthy without really trying to even work hard. Or the people buying, like, I was looking at the Tesla stock and this is where Wall Street Bets came in. They're buying a top of nine. I'm like, what the fuck? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's the same mentality that we saw. You know, we've both been in crypto for a long time. And like the same mentality is 2017 in Bitcoin, right? Like, oh, shit. Like, what was that headline? Everybody is getting hilariously rich, except you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it had those guys with the sweater, the Bitcoin sweaters. Yeah. Yeah. It's funny how fast that market sentiment can change, too. It's like, you know, one month, everybody's like hot and then everybody, you know, 90 days later is like super depressed. And, you know, if you understand that element of how the markets work, I don't care if it's Tesla options, Bitcoin, futures, you know, it's all the same shit. It really is. It's just different ways of participating. And fortunately, most people gamble and they don't understand how to actually be the casino. It's like, you don't have to be the degenerate shithead in there, like risking your life savings on one move that the odds are like 80% against you. You could actually be the casino if you just put in a little bit of work. Havings coming up in Bitcoin sometime in like a month or a month and a half. And we're, you know, the whole crypto market in the last couple of days have been ripping like crazy. Yeah. Do you see anything in your data that the having would affect anything or do you believe that things are most likely priced in already? So that is literally the trillion dollar question, right? And so I think the way that I like to think about this is I look at the different mental models we can use to come up with an idea of what's going to happen. I'm not somebody that's ever going to say like, yes, Bitcoin is going to do this because of the having. I say, what are the possibilities? What could happen? And what do I think is most likely to happen? And then how do I invest and trade in a way where I'm not going to get crushed no matter what the actual outcome is, right? So there's a couple of mental models that we can all look at. I think a lot of people in the crypto space by now have heard of Plan B on Twitter, you know, the stock to flow ratio, which I think is probably the strongest bull case that you can make for Bitcoin and the having and just kind of the logarithmic chart. Everybody knows those waves by now. So I think that that's definitely a possibility. That's not guaranteed to play out. There could be something tomorrow that happens technically or fundamentally with Bitcoin where the price just gets absolutely demolished. And if demand for Bitcoin dries up, that could kill that thesis easily. But it is interesting. So it's what, 4-7 today. So April 7th, so we've got just over a month until the having, now is really game time. This is really the first recession that Bitcoin's been through because it was born in the ashes of the 08 financial crisis. So it's being tested. It's like, okay, we've got a pandemic, we've got a stock market crisis, and we've got a having coming up. Now it's your time to shine. You know, I feel like the next 30 to 60 days are going to be really, really key. So I'm bullish. We bought the dip at 4 and 5K. We're now at multi-month resistance, you know, like 7 or 8K has been basically for the past year a magnet for price, which I think is good that it's been holding up and it's just been really choppy over the past year. But yeah, I don't know. I think what I read, I might be mistaken. So if you guys are listening, correct me if I'm wrong. But I think after that having, the Bitcoin price has to be 15K for profitability. Yeah, and that's the thing, like I'm not a miner, so I can't speak super intelligently about this, but you know, Bitcoin could operate in a way where it's not profitable to mine it. We'll mine it at a loss. And then you've got the whole dynamic thing with hashing power and stuff like that, which is interesting. But yeah, I mean, in theory, price needs to go up. Yeah, it's going to be interesting because then the difficulty increases and then only people who have really capitalized mining operations can float the cash flow to keep on mining at a loss. Or more or less, as you mentioned, hash might go somewhere else as more profitable, some other proof of work chains. So I'm interesting to see how this minor territory or ecosystem kind of pans out after the having. Yeah, it's definitely an interesting time and the next 30 to 60 days will be very telling. So the thesis or the narrative or the market sentiment could really... Yeah. I've been seeing like natural sentiment though too, like the data, I've been seeing a lot of people are organically searching for Bitcoin now. It's kind of like reminiscent of the 2017 bull run. Yeah. And so people are looking for like a different option. They know that we're going to be entering an economic recession for a while because of this. And so it's interesting. I see the organic self-interest of like random people just searching for like how to buy Bitcoin, how to store Bitcoin. So I think the zeitgeist and the general public is back again. Yeah. So there's two interesting bullish cases right now for Bitcoin in that kind of realm. It's one, you've got the financial crisis, which makes people look for ways to hedge risk and alternative assets. So like one thing I did in basically Q3 of last year was I opened some pretty large managed futures positions. So just a real quick thing. So when it comes to hedging risk in the stock market, there's a few things you can do. You can buy gold, you can buy Bitcoin, stuff like that. You can also use futures to open short positions that if the markets go down, that's going to offset your losses. And so instead of me personally trading futures like I used to back in the day, I just invested in some private funds that employ those PhDs and mathematician or people, right? So that's one thing that I did to kind of hedge that risk. But yeah, what a lot of people will do is they'll say, what other assets can I get into if equity prices fall? And Bitcoin is one of those. The other kind of interesting thing is generationally, like, I can't remember where I heard this. It was probably on another crypto podcast, but basically Gen Z, either millennials or Gen Z who have an account at Charles Schwab, the fifth most popular asset is GBTC. Yeah, maybe it was those guys that were being interviewed by Pomp or somebody, I don't know. But basically, our generation and younger are more interested in crypto, obviously, than the older generations. And so that capital flow is more and more of those people coming to the workforce and have capital to invest. Hopefully they understand the value of owning companies in the stock market. But I think alternative assets like Bitcoin are definitely a key part of the portfolio in today's economy. They did an interesting survey on Fortnite. And they asked them, would you rather have the US dollar or the V-Bucks, the digital currency in Fortnite? And the majority said, I want the V-Bucks. Nice. Yeah, I mean, how cool is it that we are alive in a time like this where we're like really redefining what money is? It's easy to assume that the dollar has always been around. And this is just the way that it works. But it's really not like money changes every, what, 50 years or so. If the average lifespan of a fiat is 27 years, if you take all of it to get, yeah. And so like people forget, like before in the States, you had multiple different currencies state by state. They were, yeah. And I like to buy those notes. It's just so interesting to look back and think, you know, people used to view this as money. And it might come back. So like if we enter full-blown MMT, where Treasury doesn't put up collateral, but Treasury prints money with no collateral, you would have to then figure out how you put a cap on inflation since you're printing as much as you want. And that doesn't really matter. So there's propositions now states once again getting power to print their own state currency. Wow. Yeah, it's a really weird and interesting time. And then you've got, you know, the digital dollar that's coming down the road. You've got the Chinese digital currency. So you've got obviously real cryptos, decentralized. Then we've got corporate shit, like Libra and government-controlled like it. And then, yeah, you're talking about state by state now. Man, such an interesting time. It's interesting. I think the digital, for sure, they're gonna roll out. And that's gonna be dangerous. A cashless society is a dangerous society. So they can see every transaction you make. They can automatically close your bank account. They can automatically withdraw your money. It's not yours, per se. And it kind of destroys a lot of counter markets. But my thesis on if once we do go digital like that, it's gonna give way more value prop into the blockchain space. We're like, hey, I don't want this. Like I'll still use it. I'll pay my gas. I'll pay my mortgage with it. But for everything else that I want privacy, we might get to a position where it's like China, where if you're donating money to a rival political party or a dissident, well, guess what? We know. Joke you out, yeah. Joke you out, yeah. Yeah, it's a very dangerous thing. And I hope people understand the difference. That's why I think having these conversations are really important because if people just assume that Libra or the digital dollar is the same as Bitcoin, it's like a, I don't know, it's an evil twin of it. It's an important component. It's like. Yeah. So what advice would you have for like average Joe out there right now listening? What should they do? About the markets or? Yeah, in general, man. Like we're in a chaotic times right now. Oh, man, if that's not a loaded question. Uh, I mean, I think, you know, first and foremost, we got to stay safe. We got to stay healthy, you know, hopefully by now everybody's like taking the social distancing seriously. Like it's it's just it's mind blowing to me. How many people are still in denial that this is actually happening? I think we just crossed what 10,000 dead in the US and the numbers are just getting worse and worse. So that that's first and foremost. And then second is control what you can control and and don't stress about the other shit because I had to step away from the news. Um, I just found myself getting really, really angry at politicians recently, and I usually just kind of push politics to the, uh, peripheral because, uh, that's out of my control. And I, but I saw how Trump and everybody just mismanaged this and they pushed it off and didn't take it seriously. And that's why things are so bad right now. So, um, you know, again, just focus on what you can control and we'll, what can help, uh, help you financially, help you physically, you know, keep in contact with friends and family. Thank God we have video conferencing like it's like, how, uh, how insane would that be if we didn't have discord and YouTube and like that, that alone is so helpful. And then financially, like just take stock of what you have cut back on any unnecessary bullshit and, um, try to, try to think for yourself. I see a lot of group think, you know, especially in crypto, like everybody likes to be in agreement with each other. Um, I don't really give a damn about being like popular or having the popular opinion. Like I just want to look at myself as like this outside observer and say, what are the opinions and what do I think is right? But also where could I be wrong? And I would challenge people to like think critically about their own thinking, like it's really kind of weird to think about stepping outside of yourself and like looking at your own mental models and how you think about the world and money and crypto. And don't just be a parrot for any tribe in the crypto space. You know, it's, it's so tribal and it's so like, it gets really nasty sometimes. And I just like to step outside of that. Now, the minute I entered crypto years ago, I said, this is a religion. Yeah. Yeah. And, and yeah, it's very weird. I think we'll leave it at that, man. Chris, I just want to thank you so much for coming on and sharing your thoughts. If people want to get ahold of you and know more about you, what you do, what's the best resource? Um, I'm at Chris Dunn TV everywhere, uh, Chris Dunn.com. I appreciate you having me on, man. And, uh, we should do this on my channel and, um, just keeping contact. And yeah, I mean, if I can be of service or help to anybody, always feel free to reach out. Thanks, brother. Likewise. Yeah. Thanks, man. Good to see you. Likewise.