 This is Startup to Storefront. Scaling a business and cementing your place in an emerging market is a special kind of struggle. While you're busy building your own brand, you've also got to be busy educating consumers about the market's very existence. The appeal of all of this is, of course, if and when consumer trends shift, any company with a foothold sees massive growth and all the rewards that come with it. One need look no further than Tesla to see how proper timing and a few lucky breaks can launch a small startup into a Fortune 100 company. Our guest today is Emily Griffith, founder of Lil Bucks, and the emerging marketplace in question is centered around Buckwheat. Buckwheat is a familiar dietary staple in other cultures around the world, but when it comes to America, it's still in its infancy. Buckwheat is naturally packed full of nutrients and antioxidants, while at the same time being gluten-free since it's a fruit seed and not a grain. So in following recent superfood trends, it checks a lot of the same boxes. The ability to educate and appeal to a mass audience will be the difference between ending up like Tesla or Fisker. So listen in as we cover everything from why consumers don't want to sacrifice taste for health, why she focused on building her brand before building her business, and how she owes her success to getting on the shelves of Whole Foods to a cleaning lady. Now, on to the episode. Alright, welcome to the podcast. On today's show, we're talking to Emily from Lil Bucks. Thanks for joining. Thank you for having me. For people who don't know, what does your company do? So we make crunchy snacks and superfood toppings from sprouted Buckwheat seeds, and it's all, you know, like a crunch you've never had before, but gluten-free, grain-free, you know, protein fiber, all the good stuff. And it's delicious. What made you want to start this company? What was the thing you were like, you know what, I'd really love if this existed? I mean, it was honestly just an obsession that a personal obsession that started when I was living in Australia. Where in Australia were you? I was in Sydney, which was so good. So already, you know, being from the Midwest, living in a place like Sydney. Very different. Yeah. Like such a dream. And I was so inspired by everything there, the beach culture, the healthy food culture, surfing, everything, living my best life. And while I was there, I had a life-changing acai bowl, as it any millennial does. What year was this? This was 2016. So I was there 2016, 2017. And the reason that this acai bowl was so life-changing was because the cafe put sprouted Buckwheat seeds on the bowl instead of a granola. And I love healthy food and stuff like smoothie bowls, especially things that can like taste like an unhealthy version of healthy food. So like a smoothie bowl is kind of like ice cream to me if you do it right. But especially when you're getting at cafes, they're always putting like a sugary granola on it. And that never really resonated with me. So I'm like, they're like, well, do you want the buckwheat or do you want the granola? I'm like, I don't know. Sure, the buckwheat. And I mean, I'll never forget it. Like I'm a big texture person. I think really texture forward food. So having that crunch on the cold smoothie bowl was like, what is this? And then on top of that, how amazing I felt after eating it, which I guess is due to like buckwheat extremely low glycemic. It's grain free. It was low sugar because it was not even flavored. So and it's packed with protein. So genuinely was so full and energized to the point where, you know, I talked to the cafe about the buckwheat found like the bulk version of it. Australia has a bunch of like bulk food stores. So I was buying like at least a pound every week and topping like yogurt, smoothie bowls of course. Just on their own. Yeah. This was just like a personal use thing. And then I mean, it was just kind of one of those things I get really excited about and get a little obsessed and go down a rabbit hole. And I'm just like putting it on everything and making like instead of making my energy balls with oats, I'm using the buckwheat seeds. And it's just like, how is this? Not a thing that I've heard of before. And I figured because I'm from the Midwest, like you just hadn't seen it. Yeah. Like surely this is in LA. Yeah. Surely. Is it sourced in Australia? Is a reason why it's so popular there is because they have it in abundance. No. No, I think it's just there, you know, little, sometimes a little bit, a step ahead, like even the keto craze was already massive there when I was living there. And then about a year back in the living in the States, it became as massive as it was in Australia. So I think sometimes they're just like maybe a half step ahead of. It's definitely a healthier culture for sure. It's also warmer. And so people generally eat the right thing. And it's a smaller population. So much smaller. I mean, I'm not going to quote numbers here, but I mean, the population of Australia is probably like the size of Minnesota. Don't quote me on that. But you know, like, you heard it here. Yeah. Yeah. You heard it here first. But an idea there can spread a lot more quickly than it does in the States. Somewhat happens when you come back and you're like, I got to buy this in bulk. I need it back in my life. What is your first step from like loving something to wanting to make it a business? Well, when I was moving back, I actually didn't really want to move back, but I moved back for love. And that's the guy I'm marrying in a few months. So fortunately, it was a good, it was a good risk there. Were you in love with him prior to your trip? Well, yeah, of course, we met five months before. We met the day after I signed a contract to take a job in Sydney. What was the job? I was working at ad agency. All my clients, ironically, were like big food. So I worked on Hormel foods in the States, like spam, canned meat. And then I went to Australia, ended up with like basically the Tyson foods of Australia. I'm like, why do I keep getting these like big meat clients? But yeah. So I was moving back to be with him. He was still working in Chicago where I'm from. So I was moving back and a bit bummed about it. So I was like, I want to bring something like, I'm so inspired here in Australia. And then I'm like, also, where am I going to get the buckwheat that I'm eating every day? And that's where I was kind of doing some research and going on like us.google.com. So while I was still in Australia, and realizing nothing is coming up for this, except for like the like Australian brands. It was just a really innocent like, I'm a graphic designer, like how hard, you know, someone else had an idea to get their food product on the shelf. Like I'll just like whip up some packaging and everyone's going to be obsessed with this and you know, done deal. Were there any other products that stuck out to you too while you were in Australia that you were like, this should definitely be in America? Actually another one. I still like found I had these preserved like, oh, an idea for a later date, but now it's already a thing in America. Another one was coconut bacon. Have you heard of that? No. I actually met a brand at Expo West a few weeks ago, actually based out of San Diego. Who does it? Like legit coconut meat and they like do something with it, like maybe maybe smoke it. So actually they literally, I don't know, it's something with the actual like harder coconut chips and they do flavoring with it. And it does, I don't even know what they put on it, but it tastes like you put on your salads and it tastes like bacon on a salad. And that was the thing in Australia. With the departure of Australia, you go back to Chicago and you realize that you can't get this buckwheat anywhere. So like your first step is, oh, I've got to manifest this into existence, but where do you then go from there? Like where do you source the buckwheat from? It's the Midwest, the buckwheat capital of the world that we don't know about. Actually, yeah. Actually in the States, the most buckwheat is from New York. There's part of New York State that it's the Finger Lakes region. It's a really great place to grow buckwheat, but buckwheat actually grows really well in cold climates and poor soil. So we're actually now sourcing most of our buckwheat from a regenerative organic farm in Minnesota. So New York's definitely a place to get your buckwheat, but we happen to be producing and I'm from the Midwest and actually found a really solid like cost-wise, a really good supply chain out of Nebraska, Minnesota. So yeah, that's where it's from. And it's actually really interesting with what's going on in Russia, Ukraine. Obviously, there's a lot of pressure on our food system from like a grain perspective, but also buckwheat. Russia is the number one producer of buckwheat, and Ukraine is number three. So the fact that we're sort of... Because it's so cold. Yeah. And it's also like a national dish for both Russians and Ukrainians. What do they do with it? It's called kasha. So they cook the buckwheat seeds and it's almost like a porridge. So unflavored, it could be like a side dish. And then they'll do like put some flavors in it, have it for breakfast, almost like their version of oats. You've had it? I haven't, but I've heard of it. Yeah. Kasha. Yeah, when I launched it, especially in Chicago, there's a big Ukrainian population there and I'd have people like running up to my table. There's one big Ukrainian. Oh yeah. They'd be like, I grew up with this, but like never have seen buckwheat in this way. And I'm like, yeah, the Aussies came up with a totally different use for it. That's so fascinating. Yeah. I'm like in this buckwheat subculture. Yeah, totally. And you're like meeting all these people that you probably didn't know existed. And so... Oh yeah. What was your first step there? So you come back, you find a source, and now packaging, education-wise, you're talking to your friends and family and they're probably like, is this a thing? What is this? What do you do with this? Oh my gosh. They thought it was up in mind, for sure. And then you're putting it on yogurt or an acai bowl or a smoothie. And so are they just thinking like, oh, is she going to start a smoothie company? Yeah. It was really funny coming back. I feel like, I mean, fortunately I'm from, you know, a really supportive family, even when I think they were probably a little skeptical. Like our daughter's lost her mind. She's been down under, like coming up with, like spewing all this weird stuff about buckwheat. And especially being in the Midwest where trends, especially a health food trend, don't generally start there. It's a really tough proving ground. But I was so hell-bent on getting this out in the world and nobody could tell me no. So I just kept talking to as many people as possible, wheezing my way into events. I mean, there are some, obviously a lot more brands, especially in the natural products and emerging brand space are coming from the coast or Austin, Texas or Boulder. But in the Midwest, we have like, Simple Mills, RX Bar and a few others, Think Jerky. So I actually got myself into an event at the Chicago Soho House where I got to meet those founders and start kind of getting pointed in the right direction and then just keep meeting more people in the industry because I was 25 when I started this. So I had no connection to this world. What advice did they give you? Like what was like the main point? Like, oh, you've got to raise capital like right away. You've got to scale this thing. Like what do you remember from those conversations? Funny because now knowing how capital intensive CPG can be that was not the advice I was getting for probably in some ways a good thing because first and foremost I'm coming out with something so unique. Like we were just talking about our friends or Abora, they're kind of just disrupting coming up with a new sparkling water but like everyone and their grandma knows what's like sparkling water is who knows what sprouted buckwheat is who knows how to consume this so there was already like an uphill battle of the messaging and the product and so one of the things actually one founder gave me really good advice actually a couple founders probably had to hear this a few times until it resonated but they saw our first product line the sprouted buckwheat crunch which is basically the sprouted buckwheat seeds and different flavors and that's what people are using to top their yogurt, smoothies oatmeal, et cetera but when I'm talking about trying to become like a large scale consumer brand that could be anywhere they took one look at my product they're like you need to come up with something clustered this needs to be snackable like it needs to be something they can eat and that's what led to launching cluster bucks which is our snackable granola so they're the buckwheats bound together with other super foods like coconut and pepitas and has fun flavors so it's a lot like we know what clusters are we've everyone seen those so I kind of had to do a lot more product development so I'm grateful that you know I didn't raise too much money too early because I think there was like still a lot of product development to do in a tough proving ground but ultimately I think if you could make something work in the Midwest I want to have a brand that's in every pantry across America so Did you go direct to consumer first or did you go into the try to get into the grocery store? Yeah so I spent the first summer doing fitness festivals farmers markets and that was with the clusters or with the the little bucks the seed line and kind of getting consumer feedback getting it out there and I made quite a splash and it's a smaller community in Chicago but like the wellness scene there fitness and wellness people were so excited and it's you know the only place you can get this so it kind of spread organically from there so we did have some D to C sales but this was very small like a side hustle like 10K in our first year very much figuring it out organically no idea what I was doing and then starting to talk into like okay how do we get this into stores started with about five stores and just demoed you know going in and doing the samples because once people try the crunch there's no competition and eventually was able to prove even in that small data set like okay we're getting really high turns in these five stores so you know I kept knocking on Whole Foods store and being like check it out we're like the only brand in the country doing this we're regenerative sustainable healthy blah blah blah we have high turns at these five stores so we're ready to go you know we're ready for all the Whole Foods you can give us and you know had to weasel my way in a few different ways but ended up getting a yes from Whole Foods Midwest okay do you have a good story that you can share with us about how you trick them yeah I think there was it's hard to say what was the thing that ultimately worked but I did stop by their office a few times and you know one time just kind of like not invited right not invited and no and I think you know you're just confident and you're like oh I'm going up to Whole Foods and my goal was just to drop it off and it was at like 5.15 p.m. which to me at the time I was you know freelancing full time to bootstrap a little buck so 5 p.m. is you know noon to normal people it's the middle of the day so I'm like oh stopping by and everyone from Whole Foods is gone but I thought like maybe I'd catch someone and the cleaning the only person there was the cleaning lady so she let me in assuming I was an employee so then I just went straight to the office of the Midwest buyer and was like I'm kind of you know breaking in but I'm going to leave this here now there's no B&E you were let in I know true yeah so you know technically I was allowed in felt a little creepy but and so you left you left some product on the desk right you know with a note saying hey remember me I know where you live yeah exactly you loved this product last time I saw you cause I've been giving them like we were first selling in like you know brown craft paper bags with a sticker on it and we had just got our new packaging and I'm like give us a chance we're ready we're ready but they ultimately did say yes they're ready to bring us into not just a lot of brands especially starting very like bootstrap local start with a few Whole Foods they're a local brand but they're like we're gonna bring you into the Midwest region which was 51 stores at the time and so we're like okay I didn't even know like okay one of the most common distributors for Whole Foods is UNFI I'd never heard of that before and we had just secured the account so then I was like okay we need to go raise a little bit of friends and family money to make sure we execute this and the whole plan how much did you need for that we raised 260k and the whole plan I had trained 21 brand ambassadors across the Midwest because the Midwest is a super vast region tons of cities and our whole plan was we need to demo the crap out of this because it's all about getting people to try that crunch and then it's game over but guess when we launched COVID March 2020 perfect timing yeah yeah yeah wow that was a ride that's a good story though yeah so in terms of pricing like how were you pricing it in 2009 so similar to I had a hard time with this first product line Lil Bucks in retail versus online amazing because it's such a niche there's no competition once people find us the repeat purchase on that is great but that does not translate the same into retail so we're like do we go next to superfoods because it has a superfood benefits of like achilla or hemp seed or are we buy granola because that's basically how it's used but it's like a little different so that was a hard thing but ultimately we decided to go by granola okay was that a more expensive category than the other one it's a faster moving category in retail so you're choosing velocity there yeah and just kind of something so like the healthy granola people are looking at it like oh this is a healthier superfood granola right but that's actually really smart yeah because granola's a lot of sugars exactly not healthy but they're just looking a lot of times when they're using granola they want that a texture benefit and they want just like a little more protein or whatever to fill them up with their yogurt and they don't want all this crap like I was the same way I just didn't want all the crap that came with your standard granola so you're in 21 stores you're at $6.99 what happens so COVID hits so you can't do any you can't have a squad you can't just no squad it was so tough we didn't even hit the shelves at most whole foods until August of that year but you have everyone so that's another right so it's like people are only going to the grocery store because it's the only place they're allowed to go right but the funny thing so everyone's like oh well you're in food and I am grateful and on the flip side our e-commerce had blown up at that point sure yeah which was great and that's my background was in digital marketing so that was great but of course my North Star was you know you get a big chance an opportunity with the retailer like Whole Foods like that is how so many brands that are widespread today their impact was getting a region of Whole Foods making sure they have the highest turns they could possibly have and then rolling out into more regions and that's how it starts so I was like this is our opportunity we gotta get this right but A you know all this grocery store rush was mostly for like mac and cheese not like cool emerging brands like we did see a bump where we were on the shelf but not compared to so people were wanting comfort food to get them through this traumatic shared experience yeah like the time where you feel like all this abundance and you're like ready to try something like really healthy and energizing when you're like depressed and you just want ice cream but also another challenge was we were supposed to be rolling out into stores at that time and for example we're rolling out into Bristol Farms in LA right now and I'm gonna go visit them after this and like we might like some stores were seeing that were on the shelves but it might be another week usually we a lot like three weeks to kind of gradually hit all the shelves and make sure we're there and this was supposed to be happening during like the craziest experience the grocery stores have had so I'm calling them here are our little bucks on the shelf they're like what no like not now so like half of the stores we weren't even hitting the shelves until August calling like every week 51 stores to try to get on is a trip and actually what ended up happening and it's tough to assess all the data and like learnings from this because you have to take it in a grain of salt that this was in a completely unprecedented time but we actually ended up a year later March 2021 launching cluster bucks the clusters into Whole Foods and switching them out with the little bucks and how did that perform right off the bat a lot better just because we were in stores and do demos at the time but a we had learned how to drive velocity virtually and things had loosened up a little how do you do that a big moment for us so literally we were sending coupons we were doing ads like input your Instagram ads input your email and address and we'll send you coupons and kind of put it in like you know we just packed envelopes this is super scrappy I mean we printed the note and I just little autograph but and putting the coupons in there and they're just an envelopes which is stamps and sending them to homes to go try it influencers really leaning on the community we had built leading up to the pandemic those were our champions so if we can get them to buy and get them to repeat then we have enough velocity to continue opening doors so decided to really focus and be narrow on who we were targeting and mostly that being people that were already engaged with us or you know Instagram lookalike audience most likely to engage who is your audience what do they look like what age are they what are they into I mean when I started you know so naive I'm like will anyone who likes crunch or everyone feeling good anyone who eats breakfast I don't know but no we've definitely seen the most pickup from millennial and Gen Z women that are just generally urban suburban but actively kind of looking for ways to live a healthier lifestyle I think where I overshot it at some points was being too healthy like we were really when we launched clusterbucks at first we were really gung-ho actually the first tagline of clusterbucks right now if you look at the packaging it says green free superfood clusters the first packaging for clusterbucks was adaptogenic buckwheat clusters which in LA you know that's an emerging market right now right and I love adaptogens as a consumer and we still use them in the products yeah you have market this one did you find it turned people off who weren't in these markets terrifying word yeah of course like at air one fine they're excited about that but pretty much everywhere else so to that point like do you have something that looks different in air one than you do in the midwest somewhere no we actually we're trying to find the balance of what works for the air one customer because that's kind of where this starts like we are creating a better food brand that the only sugar in it is from maple syrup like we do like using these next level ingredients but at the end of the day and something we learned with our target audience no one wants to sacrifice taste those hardcore health people will sacrifice taste but we want a larger market than that I keep saying I want buckwheat and I want our buckwheat and every pantry across America and that is these hardcore health foodies but it's also like the mom from Dallas, Texas that just wants to like be energized and feel good but like she's not trying to eat like like take wheatgrass shots every morning do you want these to be in movie theaters like where do you want these to be like how do you see making it not so much like a snack category but there is something there right where it's like you're introducing a healthier option right and we actually do a lot of retailers are starting it's kind of an interesting space to be in with the clusters even in Whole Foods our category is actually functional snacks and so for example we're launching into four divisions of Kroger in a couple months which is exciting and there we're like in the gluten free like granola area it's a little too soon for them to have like I think grocery stores are trying to figure out what do we do with like these healthy like bites balls clusters even Target we were in the Target Accelerator last year which was massive and kind of helping refine our cluster bucks specifically for retail and one of the things even they're trying to figure out is having that like kind of more healthy snack set because there's like there's a big difference between Doritos and cluster bucks but they're both serving a similar eating occasion maybe not when you're like really baked at two in the morning but Doritos might have us there you mentioned that you were freelancing on the side when you started this this company to help you know get some capital and just support yourself while you were doing it at what point though did you realize that you had to stop that and just go full time into low bucks yeah that was definitely quite a learning curve for me I mean I got really really really burnt out because I was working so hard when you know you know right yeah when you know you know you kind of reach a point where I mean I think everyone has felt overwhelmed before where you're like shell shocked from like you know it's beyond stress it's just like another level of I can't handle all this anymore and that was at the same time we were getting ready to go into whole food so this was right before the pandemic and that's where I was like okay it's go time gonna raise a little bit of friends and family money 260k is not enough to like have a salary but by then my boyfriend at time now fiance we were like okay I could afford you know I have some saved up from freelance and then like we're gonna take off in whole foods and you know I'll be paying myself by like April or May which I like peeled off the freelance clients it took pretty much through Q1 to do that of 2020 but then yeah I didn't end up paying myself for quite a while after that but we did go live at my family is like Lake Cabin in Michigan so the expense were low at least yeah and probably a pretty scenic place to conduct your business from as well yeah definitely better than our 500 square foot apartment in Chicago that wouldn't have worked how many stores are you in now? we're in about 180 stores now and we're about to add 600 so between HEB and Texas so we're launching to 180 HEB stores which is an awesome account so we're really excited what's the hard part for your business? is it the consumer? is it basically just like you feel like you're from the future to go back to something I referenced earlier where it's like you're ahead of this and so the question you have in Target is asking you is where do you fit, right? do I put you next to granola or are you not that or are you functional food? that sounds weird and esoteric and kind of wack because if I'm a consumer going for a snack I want a snack the problem is I don't want it to be called functional food I want it to look like a snack that I consume and this falls in that category but I'm like an anomaly in that world probably I just call it like one of the various things that you could market me with would be functional food and so what's the thing that you think this all takes off if? I think that we're ready for it but the journey of my business I've been doing this since I got back from Australia I've been working on it since 2017 we launched doing the cute little farmers markets in 2018, 2019 was when we started gearing up for Whole Foods 2020 as you know Whole Foods blah blah blah here we are today that whole journey has been figuring out I was ahead of time in some ways like I've had that feeling for a long time and finally especially through years of learning and product refinement we have a really good product innovations advisor who's helped on the strategy refining the taste making it a lot more approachable like we want finished the bag quality which we feel like we finally have reached with the cluster box target helped us be like okay, how like with our packaging we just relaunched the cluster box packaging it looks like it has some elements of the old stuff but even if you look at there's been three iterations of it with messaging and getting it to a point where like we feel comfortable having this on a target shelf or you know I'm not ready to say that it's going to be on a Walmart in Oklahoma yet but we're ready for high-end conventional we've seen it work at a Mariano's in Chicago so we know we can get turns but yeah now we're going to be watching the 180 higher-end HEB stores in Texas and then TBD on the number but four divisions of Kroger in California Colorado and the Pacific Northwest so and this is the hero product the clusters that's it right especially in retail and do you feel like you need to stop maybe making little bucks or in terms of dollars it's still like it justifies its own line yeah this is actually the little bucks I just love it's Knockingwood but it's a fly chain it's been I've had very different experiences with two product lines and kind of figuring out scaling up the operations on it and little bucks is very easy for us to make we have it completely streamlined the cogs are super low on it there's not been any I mean Knockingwood no drama yeah and it's we actually make it where we do all our sprouting for all the buckwheat that is the base of our product okay so it's low cost that's an essential step too by the way from what I know it's like you can't absorb it in its raw form right mm-hmm yeah it's like when I think about your product and I think like I go on your Instagram as an example and I'll go okay cool the cluster bucks you don't need anything there's no additive it's just like boom here it is enjoy finish the back when it comes to this it's like very much put it on a smoothie put it on yogurt do something with it so I need something it's like a compliment it's a compliment and suddenly the question becomes like how do I get the compliment I always think like is it a partnership that you do mm-hmm you blow it out of the water with like Chibani or maybe you don't know Chibani and maybe you go with like Daily Harvest or somebody who's making smoothies oh yeah I'm on the prowl for your partner there I have it for you live more organics oh yeah so when I do this at home right so live more we spoke to them not on the podcast but just like as a they'll be coming on soon like advisory call and so they hit me up and we're talking about their brand and they're telling me how like Daily Harvest is a billion dollar company Daily Harvest only goes D to C and I'm like so what are you guys doing like same thing but we want to be in Costco I'm like you just told me you have a billion dollar business that's a D to C and you're trying to go to Costco I'm like they've already figured it out for you and they're like oh and by the way Amazon has this amazing partnership where they're using our cups but it's going to be an Amazon fresh product and I'm like do you not read the tea leaves like Amazon is doing what you should be doing and they have the data to suggest this is a no brainer like it's right in front of you so anyway they're in the process of moving to D to C through all this we have like a bunch of boxes at the house and every time I make a smoothie this is what I add to it from when Nicky sent it over and I'm just like this is the thing exactly because it's a two and one yeah obviously there's a discussion there financially that it seems easy to me but the complimentary thing like yogurt makes it hard for people like I don't also don't know that do you know that behavior so if I'm in the grocery store and I buy this can I then go into the yogurt aisle or does that not exist even actually what we're doing a test right now is jippers which are kind of like those branded displays that are temporary in stores and a couple of our a couple of retailers we're putting them next to yogurt to kind of have that like association oh these go together but I mean to your point Lil Bucks has been an amazing D to C product because again we can have that content of you see you know you're looking at the product listing and you see it on this beautiful smoothie bowl or in a yogurt and it's it resonates that way like oh I need this I'll do my online grocery shopping and like add it all together but again when you're in the grocery store if this is in the granola aisle you have to have a really educated or interested consumer who's making that leap and you can't assume most Americans are not making that leap so I just think when I want to live more in the greenhouse and so that's you see what I'm saying right yeah and so that's the problem we got to keep it's like we need elevated consumption of like or I just have wine and I want a dessert and I just open the bag and go all right that was good that's my dessert today yeah you see what I mean yeah but it's like hard it's hard where this seems more straightforward exactly yeah is the plan to make more different more flavors yeah the plan that we kind of strategize with our cluster bucks product line when I launched it there was only two flavors we launched them straight into Erwan of course like the first to pick up anything cool like that but our two flavors at the time it was called chocolate Reishi and turmeric lemon which you're eating right now which are both awesome flavors but so different so scary yeah I mean in Erwan those terms probably work like I think we discussed it earlier like the lines of Reishi in the sense of a turn off like adaptogens to some people and it's different you know it's so interesting like the language studies that we've done and how we talk about our products because yes turmeric is an extremely like trending ingredient and you know people like it but the actual word turmeric turns out is still scary like turmeric was one of the Whole Foods top 10 trends for the year and like they had signs by our turmeric bags and Whole Foods in the Midwest and that's great but at the end of the day people are still a little wary of it so the new bags now say it's the same formula but it's golden chai with lemon just to be a little more ooh that sounds like inviting and tasty that's what they call it here they call it like the golden hour latte yeah it's kind of funny I mean part of me as like a consumer I was like oh I just want to be real and not that that's not real it's the same thing but just kind of like straightforward and this is what it is and letting them know it's really interesting so there was a time not too long ago where I was getting like a deck a week about someone who's starting into the adaptogen market oh yeah and I'm looking at this and I didn't get it like what is this thing and why does it matter and so I just start doing all this research and basically what I found out was at the end of the day there's like the emerging marijuana weed CBD business and for the people who find a taboo they love the adaptogen market because it means they're not taboo and so the adaptogen market is following the growth of the CBD market interesting okay cool I get it but does it flare out I think so I could be wrong let's pretend it doesn't flare out and you're from the future which you are at the moment and you're rebranding but you have gnakas in this do you ever think it goes back the other way like do you ever think the light switch goes on and all of a sudden it's like that's the only thing people want because you have a lot of money entering the space presently in the adaptogen market and so the way I look at it is like wherever money flows education follows and so this consumer could switch where turmeric is on your bag and now it's like it's actually like a benefit it's a benefit to have but if I so then I go let's go markets so ear one obviously having turmeric maca any adaptogen no problem people go yeah I want it Chicago probably not no hard but it's the heart you have ground swells at place or in place but also the people making the decisions at Whole Foods are probably in Chicago like if they're not in LA and not getting these decks they don't see it coming right unless there's consumer research studies but that's also way behind yeah and so it's like this weird like this is what I keep saying like I feel like you're from the future because you're seeing it in real time and you're making decisions in like real time yeah but it's hard I mean that's crazy even a trip kind of why don't you do two can you do two can you like is that allowed or no I mean like is that legal like if you said to Whole Foods hey Whole Foods I'm gonna go this product that's gonna say golden hour yeah and this in the Midwest states the middle third of the country I actually don't know I mean probably it would have to be coded it would be complicated with distributors cause like for example like would it be a different skew would they notice would they notice I mean no we're just like we just did a switch with I think you do an A.B. test on the like velocities I just find it fascinating and we actually love doing even so a big thing for us with retail one of the learning lessons I took away was having a really good merch team so the people on the ground that are taking pictures on the shelves so we can even see now like what stores still have like the cluster bucks that say buckwheat granola clusters which would be the bag that say turmeric lemon verse which stores now have the golden chai with lemon so maybe we've done some scrappy A.B. testing there before of like okay these stores are in granola these stores are in snacks which one's better and of course it's 50-50 but you should just Instagram at it and A.B. test it that way you could like totally do it by geography and figure this out and then yeah like do a Midwest test verse cost test 100% and see what resonates and what that would deduce to me is not how well your product's gonna do but how well the adaptogen market is being funded at present because that's really what you're again that's really what you're the CBD you know marijuana weed market one thing I had to be kind of come back to on though and I think it's kind of funny being the type of there's a lot of different types of founders out there and I think I'm definitely like the visionary brand builder who had to learn how to like okay how do you take this the magician, the maverick or the muse which one yeah exactly and then like okay how do we you know turn this into like what's the business that people are buying now to fuel what you see in the future and like how do you bring the consumer on that journey but like one of the things I had to learn right now is what is my goal my goal is to be America's buckwheat brand and get sprouted buckwheat and our products into every pantry across America and that affords us the opportunity to take consumers on a journey where we're like alright now we're coming out with this single serving that has ashwagandha in it or whatever but I kinda had to dial back on the adaptogens messaging for now because right now buckwheat is already new right it's good enough okay it can only go so far into the future before you reach big steps adaptogenic buckwheat clusters is like mind blowing and exciting for an Erwan consumer exciting for me but it's also a good investor story right because basically what you say is like here the next five years for the consumer and here's how I've figured it out and here's how we're gonna attack it and this is how we win I think if that story only gets better if you can do it where you have different products and different geographies I think if you can do that legally that's the win like that's how you get your velocities off the charts and also it like informs you become then a partner to a whole foods or to a target being like this is where your market's moving and this is the data I have and this is how I know it's happening right and it is exciting to like be in different parts of I mean I have such interesting perspectives coming from like growing up my brand and I did grow up in the Midwest in that environment and now I'm living in San Diego and I'll go to naturally San Diego events or come up to LA and the whole I don't know the way people talk about business and trends it's very different but yeah I'm excited to kind of gather especially now that we're launching into some bigger retailers like we've had smaller retailers in LA in the Midwest but now we're going big in all three regions so I'm really excited we'll have to chat again in six months because we'll be like oh my gosh like Snickerdoodles popping off in California but no one in the Midwest cares about it or like we'll see I would think using that example in the Midwest Snickerdoodle will probably kill yeah so even Snickerdoodle is definitely like a very cinnamon forward flavor there's also maca in that one as well it was still I see it hidden here in the back I'm looking at maca root powder and I'm like this should be in the forefront I know but I'm from the future so I get it I get it so I'm actually the graphic designer of this packaging and I still you know critique away because I'm always like looking at it like ooh maybe I changed this but so even on the front of our pack now we kind of have a stamp you know how like lots of products will have like their call out and it's like the crunch of your dreams because we're really emphasizing like we want to be taste forward because it is a little unfamiliar like don't worry it tastes good but I could see maybe you know like another brand I don't know if you follow Doe from LA DEUX all their DEUX they're crushing it mostly due to C but they're going into like Erwan Whole Foods all that what do they do? Enhanced cookie dough aka adaptogenic cookie dough which there's a lot of believe it or not a lot of adaptogenic cookie dough's out there but they just have really hit it with the messaging they always have like it seems like such a niche niche market maybe not I'm really curious to see how because they're an LA brand and they're like getting into SoCal retailers but how that works it doesn't I'd be the Midwest person coming this way like you yeah you know it's harder at the time when you're building it at the start you're talking about yeah you're in the future and you're talking about this in the Midwest and people are like dude what do you have pressure to put other products like to get out of their products do you get that question a lot from like investors are they like what else are you working on yeah it's interesting because we are the first buckwheat brand and I think you know in some ways I was so brand forward in building a brand before building a business and in some ways we had to do the catching up on the business and be like okay like we found some that turns and you know get to the million and revenue and beyond but at the same time I need to protect this like I want to build the platform or we're the one building the future uses of buckwheat that you know I have in my mind there's other derivatives yeah like what well just other kind of use cases I guess like putting it into a more like single-serve snacking form and like the seasoning or yeah even like our we love using our D to C to kind of test what's really resonating with people so we even did the everything buck seasoning so kind of our take on like a crunchy Trader Joe's everything's using everything's using and doing something savory but yeah there's a lot of cool stuff we can do I think the focus for this year for sure like we're about to be launching in massive retailers and being successful somewhere like Kroger is the number one retailer by volume in the country HB is number three and we have opportunities with both of them so the North Star is high turns with the cluster bucks there that unlocks more opportunities that unlocks you know being able to go back to them be like oh we were so successful with our cluster bucks we have your trust so let's launch like our new innovation straight into Whole Foods or whatever rather than having to do what I've did the past four years which was like prove it's worth and find the right fit and get someone to give us a chance you're already there where are you at from a funding perspective now we have raised the last year we raised I actually did a republic campaign what does that mean it's a crowdfunding campaign kind of like is it a website like a we funder but it's just a different platform so equity yeah or yeah equity crowdfunding it was on a safe note so we raised 155k there and then through that because crowdfunding you can like legally advertise like hey we're raising money and actually one of our lead investors from that discovered us through the republic campaign and we ended up closing an additional 600k there we're actually raising a little bit more for these massive retail launches and then using that to kind of hit 3-4 million dollar run rate and then everybody says to make it in CPG you have to raise 20-25 million dollars it's a lot of money do you think that's right um it's something I've been told by multiple CPG founders some who are in it some who have made it I mean you definitely hear of that I'm just cautious especially as a solo female founder it's a lot harder to raise and probably just inevitably giving up a little more equity than you know if your founding team looks a little different so a big thing for me is just making sure we have like a really solid margins let's get like our goal is to try to get profitable and then use growth capital to just expand on what we've done is the idea for that that these potential investors are going to look past you and just see the numbers and it's really interesting with the experience of raising I talked to a lot of awesome founders who were dudes in Chicago who were helping me a lot and I was like they were showing me their decks and I was like oh make my decks look just like theirs and they're like oh yeah you can go for it raise 500K no problem you got like a really cool idea no one else is doing it and it just doesn't work the same so I think A your path to that was and I think at the end of the day like you can't argue with numbers because ultimately people are going to trust me lost because of like being a woman which is annoying is that true yes I mean not everyone you find the right people and I think I'd rather work with investors but you definitely feel that you're saying oh yeah a lot more than interesting yeah I mean I've been told I need like an adult in the room we just talked to the process of raising money and she was actually giving the advice that she needs to bring on a male co-founder oh yeah if she wants to be like taken seriously someone looks like a nick genuinely like my fiance and I've talked about like he's like should I just sit in on the meeting or our sales team our guys and I'm like can I put your faces on our deck because it it helps they're like really I'm like 100% I mean at this point now it's just like it really I'm like I think it ate away at me in the first year of raising it really like broke me down because I just didn't realize how you know for the first time you experience like you're whatever discrimination you have you're like damn I didn't realize it was like that or like maybe I was immune to it because I always thought like yeah I know like there's things with men and women but I'm like busting those myths but then it happens to me still and then you just you know this is how it is and you're here to elevate your woman-owned business which in turn like the next generation of women trying to build their businesses or whatever they're building are going to have more respect so we had a modemily Yvonne so scanning Yvonne is basically solving for the long tail of dating and so the whole concept is you want to have a kid but you're single and you're 35 and I want to have a kid and in the app we have like the same political views and we want to raise our kids in similar ways we want to co-parent so he started this company that basically match makes this concept and he takes care of the legal and so there's like this is where we're going to live this is where we're going to raise the kid and so it's all sorted and so he gets told a lot to have a female co-founder yeah all the time like all the time by men and so like he was we played tennis and I was like that is such a fascinating story right? that he is talking to mostly men and they're like you need a female co-founder wow isn't that a little it's a little bit funny yeah and I'm like what are you picking you can't pick a choose what are you talking about and it's kind of like I mean it's hard to control and even as a woman I have to check myself and even when I was in like more standard workplace like was I respecting someone's ideas more just because of like a deep rooted like cultural thing where like I think the guy has the better ideas or is like a better leader I don't know it's really you know you kind of have to not let it slow me down like everyone has their battles just remember Yvonne's story remember there are men out there not many he's the only one I've ever heard of him I'll have to talk to him all the girls can give him some advice yeah sure he's a female co-founder I mean you know been there I mean if I were to do it again honestly I'd probably try to have a co-founder really yeah just to divide some of the work or yeah and I think I just become quite clear what I'm really good at does your Beyonce want to be a part of it? does he kind of right I mean it seems to make sense and he's like really operationally minded sometimes I'm like man can you just come do this but he's also on a a run with a tech company so good milk who makes the almond milk in this we invested in in Brooke and so her husband became the CEO oh wow yeah see honestly I could see that happen he was in the film industry and left that and then cause like he I think his role on film sets was an assistant director which is basically you're running the set right and so it made sense for him to run operations for that company then yeah and running like something like that a startup like it is also much learning so it's more just like what are your natural do what you're good at and I'm naturally like a brand builder innovation vision blah blah blah but had to kind of learn the back end of like how can we like model this out like to have a mitigate risk and stress on our forecasting and like fundraising strategy getting stuff A to B when I launched little bucks again small little farmers market whatever but I launched of course I was like we need to have the most perfect website because I was a designer so way overvalued how beautiful my website needed to be and I'm like cool announced it on Instagram we launched great got like 50 orders exciting and then I was like I have to ship them and I was like literally had not thought through that at all like this is just how hilarious and I'm very like impulsive and let's do it and did not think about you know the follow through operational side so I was like digging through my apartments like recycling like getting boxes had to go install a printer that's a real skill like learning how to my first company I had to like I never had gone to a USPS in my life and oh yeah I was like how do I do this what like where do I sign right envelope for me nobody knows how to ship but then you have a business and they get mad at you they're like you don't know they get mad they're all very like you know a little aggressive at least this was in Boston and so they're even like they're super salty with you that's just their default but then once you've figured out they're like oh come here oh yeah they like would I don't know like you're not ready Diego come here the post office closed at 6pm and I'd rock up at 602 with like a packed car of boxes and my little wagon and they'd have the door open for me like it's you it's usually one of the big signs is when they know you you're going to USPS entirely like three of those a day or it's like yeah that's when you know yeah when there's a wagon with you it's time to probably my first yeah the wagon was like we need to get a 3PL well when you say like USPS or UPS they get mad at you for not knowing what to do in my mind that's an opportunity for them to like have like how to videos on their website like get people to that stage where that's sophisticated no yeah nobody knows it's a much more serious small business owner it's complicated it's a lot more complicated than people think do you have any tips when you're fundraising like things that you is it like a mental state of mind you put yourself in because like I think about it like this like for when I invested in let's say Paul really for me was straightforward is do I like the product do I think it's the best shit or like close like same thing with Brooke do I think this product is unbelievable yes cool do the velocities agree with me yeah especially for you same metric when I look at the deck and I'm like it looks correct and then it's like do I just believe this this founder is crazy enough dumb enough smart enough whatever enough to run through a wall to figure it out right and if they enter that is yes that's kind of it but I think for like a like a VC the velocities are really I mean that's really yeah I don't oh yeah right and I think you built them yeah so you can't really argue that you're not going to have this opportunity with bigger retailers because we feel very confident that we figured out strong velocities even without our two new SKUs that are a lot more I think approachable flavor wise and so even like conservative forecasting at a lower point velocity than what we're used to seeing it still looks very good so we're excited about that but yeah I would say with fundraising I think A is as you can hard because yeah it's time consuming but you create a lot of urgency around it whatever that is I think in help even I think investors kind of feel like oh am I going to miss out on this deal everyone's looking for deals and then at the same time I spent a lot of time talking to the wrong people what does that mean just people that weren't like if they're not serious you just entertain it you keep entertaining it I mean there's one thing to say for networking but I'd be talking to like venture funds that in the Midwest that were not investing in the type of product I was creating so I would spend all these times and especially pre-COVID driving all over the place for these meetings and of course they're like this is cool like I'll take a meeting with this girl but not focusing on the people that are really excited you know look at who else they're investing in and what type of founders they invest in because I spent a lot of time talking to people that were a little more like this idea is really especially in the Midwest like you're too much in the future and not in a good way like it's scared them and then on top of that like what types of founders are they investing in and now looking back they were not investing in people like me so I spent a ton and that's good to network and like learn and get good feedback it's always good to kind of take in more info but like I would be more targeted on how I'm spending my time because otherwise if you talk to every single person ever it's very time consuming that's the one thing I've learned in fundraising where I know immediately if there's friction and I'm out like I'm like this isn't for you and I can tell by the question you ask I can tell by there's a whole host of things that basically give me a signal like it's too much or it doesn't it's not right and I just leave I'm like sorry this isn't for you that's good honestly respect the time because there were some times like I sat down like if someone's judging your five year projection see ya so great to meet your Bob Dick and Harry I'm out yeah and I think now I've been in to be like let's just be real you know let's just talk about why you're not going to and like oh we agreed like I've talked to someone who's like I don't get you know I just don't believe in hero ingredient businesses and I'm like cool so yeah well we just don't believe in the same like Quaker Oats I've ever heard of them I think your story's from the future I really do I think you're from the future I think you are I feel like an alien touching a market no I mean I think that's your story like if I were to not invest but or even like pitch your company I look at you like you are putting the adaption market in a place that's it's safe and in a place that it's becoming safe right and you're just going to destroy that trend and then once it switches once the market which we all know it will yeah you're there I'm already yeah you won been here the whole time you've been here the whole time well even like we just talked to a certain put your money in now before this light goes off and the valuation triples yeah do it now that's how I look at your story because I know the trends I think also to it is a lot about the story and I used to not have kind of the story from like what the investors want to hear what is that story and it was more just like here's my idea and here's what we're doing and like we're going to grow a good business but it's like there needs to be kind of a better angle than like everyone saying that but like I think you're right yeah it's your story yeah you want to be like I found this buckwheat doesn't matter where underserved unbelievable supply is huge we decided to mix it in a way that gives you an ability to enjoy a snack we're hitting the adaptogenic market now and these are our velocities and in five years time and the switches right the switches in the Midwest we've been here the whole time yeah same product same excuse same everything I think that's it I mean we're already starting to see it like write your check buckwheat is growing like I think it's supposed to be 1.1 billion market in the next five years for buckwheat as a food and the snack segments driving the most growth does Russia Ukraine make this harder? it's putting pressure on like similarly with grains it's putting pressure on different sources mostly in North America now particularly for buckwheat but fortunately we contracted with our regenerative farmer which we were doing just because of the mission and like what I wanted to do just sustainability wise but also we're like okay good glad we got that so that one farm can they sustain like this kind of growth like going from like you said 181 source to 600 like they can they can handle that yeah we have probably I would say at least three more years of just being able to source from them depending on yields and all that but even last year was our first harvest with them and it was actually a massive drought in Minnesota and we were still got a pretty good yield out of that so we're gonna do double this year we'll have other sources in case we need to supplement or like for example the heart the processing took a really long time with the regenerative buckwheat so we had to wait to launch with it we use other buckwheat in the meantime it might even help you I mean ultimately if the government wants to reduce their dependence they'll just get subsidies in place for these farmers and then you'll you'll be the next quarter and then we'll be there we'll be like we've been here the whole time doing buckwheat but yeah we just had a meeting with a pretty big account where they're like we're finally like I've been trying to hit them up and I even talked to them like two years ago and I've been doing this the whole time and all of a sudden they come asking me for a meeting they're like we're seeing tons of buckwheat searches so we need to talk to you I'm like well hello yeah welcome I'm here we're ready so have you seen other competitors sprout up in that time frame then so I'm actually really excited I mean I've obviously been on the buckwheat polls for a few years now so I'm very close to it I can sniff out any buckwheat products launching then there's actually someone coming out with a buckwheat milk in a few months there's a milk for everything yes so I mean at least from a kind of co-branding perspective and elevating the awareness of buckwheat that's great another one it's a different type of buckwheat it's called Himalayan Tartary Buckwheat and there's this company they sell like Himalayan Tartary Buckwheat flour but they just raised four million and so I'm like great paved the way it's a different type of buckwheat now we're then yeah okay and it's extremely nutrient dense like our buckwheat but there's different antioxidants in it so it's a little different but like alright heavily funded buckwheat company welcome to the club like elevate the education and then I've been talking with a few other bigger brands that I won't you know release their new products coming up but they're using buckwheat and some formulations and they had to like present to their board like why now is the time to finally use buckwheat because some of those boards were hesitant to use it because consumers were confused but they're finally at a point where they feel comfortable with the consumer understanding and they're taking the leap to have buckwheat in like their cookies or crackers so it's still in a different format as us which is good for us but it's elevating buckwheat which makes me happy I love it anything else we should know well you can find us in Bristol Farms and Ralph's coming up in a couple months Whole Foods Erwan yeah Whole Foods Erwan the good stuff but yeah look out on Love Lil Box because as we were discussing the Lil Box handle was taken by a dancer rapper also named Lil Box who's in jail who's in jail so shout out the Lil Box you come out we'll have some Lil Box waiting for them yeah they'll be like why is there my name at every store in America now there's so many people love Lil Box yeah you know we're just doing the good work help to help google himself and find you guys they'll be like damn it well thanks thanks for coming on the podcast yeah really appreciate it thank you so much that was our conversation with Emily from Lil Box and since you're still with us you might want to consider subscribing and if you've already done that you might want to consider we are found at the start of the storefront on every social media platform with the exception of Twitter where we can be found at STS Podcast LA the team consists of Diego Torres Palma Natalia Capolini Lexi Jameson Owen Capolini and me Nick Conrad our music is by DoubleTouch thank you for listening we'll see you next time