 The idea that you could enumerate all the different flows on the free and open Internet of technical data related to guns Not just enumerate them, but somehow license and control these flows is a hallucination What does Cody Wilson founder of Defense distributed the company responsible for the world's first 3d printed gun? Really want and how close is he to achieving it? That's the subject of filmmaker Jessica Solche's new feature documentary death athletic a dissident architecture Solche followed Wilson for seven years as he grew the world's most famous DIY gun company Prevented multiple lawsuits from shutting it down Faced his own personal legal troubles around a sex case and established himself as the leading voice and practitioner of crypto-anarchism Wilson was also a character in Solche's first documentary no control which came out in 2015 I was deeply interested in all things techno politics at that time and My proximity to his work made me want to continue telling his story but specifically I wanted to create a documentary that wasn't going to be a two-minute piece I wanted to explore the mischief. I wanted to explore the motivations the ideals The ethics and morals which is something that nobody had really tapped into and see See where the film would go but not Not really knowing how long that would take. I mean unconsciously I knew that this was gonna be a long journey But I don't think anyone consciously sets them up for such a long journey because that's a difficult pill to swallow but I wanted to create something that was You could say a historical Moment captured That's so that was that was turned into an obsession of watching the story unravel You mentioned the mischief That's really one of the defining characteristics of Cody's persona. He's a mischievous Prankster he described it himself in an interview that you conducted with him Alongside alongside a Benjamin Denio the co-founder of defense distributed knew of each other during undergrad I think but we didn't start to collaborate until we became Facebook friends and That was a process of basically engaging in the back-and-forth shit posting with a bunch of lip frogs New World Order Liberals right like yeah That's right, that's exactly bonded over trolling well, and we're still bonding today We're just trolling bigger targets now bigger marks, huh? so What is the role of trolling for Cody Wilson in achieving his political objectives? Oh interesting trolling Perhaps at the beginning of his career and we could say was more I think a literal troll filled with mischief and Uncertainty of where things would go but that same kind of aspiration and inspiration he says turned into trolling bigger marks, right and Learning the power of the symbolic turning that into something that was real that was you know in the court system that had very strong abilities to kind of change change not only law but change the the principles of how things were going to be Described and organized as First Amendment and Second Amendment issues of code. Yeah trolling is I think is is Still a strong. I don't know how to say this but um a strong part of what Cody does But he doesn't do it Effortlessly or without forethought or without knowing where he's going with it there. There is there is There's meat behind what he's doing. There's one part where he talks about himself in Silicon Valley terms as a disruptor People want to talk about disruption all the time. We're disrupting industry Well, look, here's a big target and no one's trying to hop that razor wire fence over there in Virginia No one's trying to get at the MIC Well, look, we're here as basically ideological enemies I'm trying to at least be able to say I fought it, you know I fought as hard as I could and I made them earn it You know and I made them stand there and say no we control the internet we control you He rose to fame as like the 3d printed gun guy But this clearly is not just about making guns because guns are fun and cool or for hunting or even just self-defense What is your larger understanding of Cody's objectives? It's techno politics in action, which most people don't understand or report on it's really forcing processes of democratic solutions on two Stages where most people have huge debates and issues. So specifically the gun It's releasing it on the internet Once it's there as we all know it can't be taken off It's kind of like the democratic distribution of information and from there the statement becomes one of not just anarchy, but of Who gets to control so it's a demonstration of The inability of governments in this digital age to actually have Utility and their idea of controlling and surveilling Everything we see this in all digital technologies from computer to Bitcoin To anything on anything in the crypto space. I think techno politics is also the idea that Technology is outpacing politics there is Technology that can be critical it forces politics that are kind of aged and Ancient and not caught up in this time frame of the digital world to catch up and in doing so it shows It's face of control and the desire of surveillance. There's another part of the documentary that Reminds me of what you're talking about right now where Cody talks about the gun as a Way to express your political will as a sort of an alternative way to vote Guns are so important because politics is still important Yeah, what I'm saying there is a not that other people's different politics are important But the fact that like politics as an idea is still important And guns are a certain admission of the reality of the political The threat of the use of violence that's power. It's political power If you can download this and use this your vote means a little bit more or Indeed you have a different kind of vote what I've probably come to realize Far more is that the threat of guns is actually more quote-unquote dangerous to governments than maybe specifically in the United States then The actual having of them because they're they're everywhere in the US the fact that we have these like oh like these debates and conversations of like just taking little parts off of guns and everything when there's like Hundreds of millions and lots of people know how to make these little pieces that they're trying to you know outlaw so I Think definitely what changed over these last ten years regarding the politics of guns was how ineffective they actually are and how they don't really reflect a large majority of the people they're trying to Govern if you will yeah, and I know that behind the defense distributed headquarters They've got a little gravestone that has uncontrolled emblazoned on it. So that's their idea is gun control is dead We killed it in America, you know guns are so tied to American political culture, but of course They have use out their political use outside of our borders And you had a whole segment that was devoted to that idea like the freedom fighters We are we thought to ourselves. You know what we're gonna do it We're gonna try to take up the mantle the whole idea of Our world is to enable the everyday common man around the world wherever he may be to produce entire firearms the shift from symbolic to practical You reach a point in Being pro-gun where you stop caring about the second amendment you realize that being armed as a human right Every part in the assembly can be purchased in Europe or can be ordered from China almost as easy It's not easier than I hear furniture People are building FTC Nets in Brazil in New Zealand in Australia everywhere and they posted pictures and videos there and People are sharing their ideas and gun control is fucking dead a lot of things Cody was doing at the beginning where You know performance art in a way Those are my words, right? They were symbolic. They were They were to really ride like get people riled up and understand that we were Entering a new era of like digital performance if you will and at that point there was a lot of other creators engineers makers that started putting their creations online in a far more visible fashion and Even though it's still a pretty niche Environment it definitely has exploded with different groups and different kind of like known figures and YouTube channels and we'll see how long those channels stay up so Cody Wilson Launched this movement with his mixture of showmanship Trolling his legal knowledge. It's clear to me both from the film and my conversations with him that Getting jumping into these legal fights are kind of what gets him up in the morning and gets him going And these legal cases reach far beyond guns. There's a part where his attorney Alan Gura Talks about what a ruling against defense distributed would really mean the government at a really hard time explaining the most basic Issue here in the case. How do people create information and release it to the public? They like to say sometimes sometimes not that if the information is already in the library It's in the public domain. You can then use that information But how does the information once a person creates it get into the library for that? They have really no consistent answer. Of course our concern is that this covers much more than guns it can cover just about anything and There's the case happens to be about guns Maybe guns is what got the government interested in the first place But the concepts that the government is trying to establish here will allow them to censor just about any speech Really, it's any topic one of the most interesting parts of this documentary Which I think will be new to most audiences because they still think guns were being distributed was the fact that this is a discussion about the ability and the legality of distributing Self-made code. It is an issue of the first amendment in the middle of You're making this documentary Cody was busted for sex with an underage girl. He met on an adults only app What was that experience like from a documentary director's perspective? It was it was very rough and trying It's a strange moment when you Work with and are allowed into someone's life for such an extensive period of time And you're building trust and something horrible happens And you have to figure out where you yourself stand What information that you can gather and also needing to do your job and get things on film and Trying to figure out Specifically for me because I'm always creating in the terms of I'm not putting myself Onto this film. It's not about my opinions. It's about really trying to capture as Undultrated a moment as possible. So not feeling like a vulture and That was a very intense. It was a very intense moment What was your point of view on it if? Cody had been and this is in the film so people in the audience I won't go into too much description if Cody had been searching out specifically a minor Cody will be in jail right now period And Because of a lot of information that was brought up during During the trial everyone does their own investigations. It was obvious that there were lies and You can have as a person Issues with prostitution you can have issues with the idea of sugar babies. You can have issues with You know extreme differences of ages, etc. But if the intent was not to you know Search out a minor and it was proved Then you know at one point People have to take responsibility of what is happening and I I personally and definitely believe that if The situation was different and if the young lady did not have such an extensive history They would have pushed harder but Also her identity would have probably come out so There was a lot of other factors This was not I think a clean and cut case that maybe the government or officials were hoping for That it would have been far more The victim would have been far more victimized if you will I noticed there are several points in the movie where Cody talks about the mental and physical toll that constantly battling the government has taken I'm gonna be screwed up because of the highs and lows I'll spend every dollar that I have suing the fuck out of them They want to put me in my place they want me to know where the boundaries are and they want me to know that They set the rules as somebody who spent a lot of time with him What do you think motivates him on a personal level to take on that kind of burden? I mean, I think that's just part of who he is I think he loves a challenge and at that point what you're seeing what we just saw in 2015 The ghost gunner had come out. He's tasting the first moments of like his payment services dropping him of Losing money. He's getting legal issues credit cards Banks like it's coming at him at all angles, right? But there's definitely a part of him that although the challenge is Hyper-destructive to your, you know courtesal levels at minimum, right? He loves it at the same time. I think people that live this kind of like life of like really Challenging any kind of government or control or building new things they have to I think they have to actually like it He talks about this doomed historical figure James Fannin Fannin 32 when he died shot in the face. He asked for three things. So says Wikipedia, but also Lone Star I read it in Lone Star he asked That is the facts be sent back home That he'd be given a Christian burial and that he'd not be shot in the face, right? And so they stole his shit shot him in the face and burned his body I want the blessing of that Texan spirit of revolutionary action in what we do and This was a young man like me. He went down to ignominy or something. He's not considered a hero. He didn't But he wanted to be one You know, that's a pretty hair-raising bit to me because it makes me seriously wonder Does Cody want to be a martyr? What do you think? Originally when I used to talk to him in 23 to 25, he would say no, but I do absolutely think he wants to be remembered But he doesn't want to be a martyr. He wants to be the winner So very two very very different things But I think at that moment in that film, he's definitely in a place where He realizes that all his work might end up being just him being scalped If you will and Cody is very good because he understands to him I think something that's hyper motivational is the symbol is the idea is the the Connection and correlation to like important parts of the past and you see that in his, you know, his symbols that he uses, etc But no, I don't think he wants to be a martyr. I think he wants to be the winner at the end of the day and a bit of a historical figure That brings me to my last question. I've interviewed Cody several times and it's always Fascinating, but he can come across as fairly enigmatic. He sometimes speaks in Riddles or highly theoretical terms. You spent so much time with him. You met his parents What are your impressions of him as a real person that are maybe different from his persona and What aspects of that personality do you think have driven defense distributed and this larger project forward? He is that person Cody is constantly reading and absorbing He's he's thinking in terms of philosophy and history. It is his jam This is his motivation. He loves all these parallels that can be created in today's society versus Past, you know past fights past wars past Ideas so Cody I think actually correctly represents himself when he speaks in these like high-philosophical terms This is completely his internal motivations There's always something theatrical when a film or a camera is involved, but this comes from a very personal and centered place for him and why do you think that That type of personality has been able to drive this project forward so successfully, he's also extremely charismatic and Doesn't shy away from a challenge. So you have to be Anyone creating something in a space not only has to be smart that definitely helps But they have to understand the game and then they have to understand that to play it They have to both be entertaining and Quote-unquote correct correct in the form of your motivations and Possibly knowing the law which he does right so the majority of things are instigations to the law And that's why he keeps being in the main frame. It's because it's constantly being on top of what is happening in the moment like Gat GPT and also Skidding across everything that's in between legal and non-legal, right? So he's he understands the terms of how to get a message into the mainstream and This is all very Centered to who he is as a person. So I think that's why it's so successful And to have anyone follow you especially from the beginning or not even just follow but work with you or get behind these like kind of Intense and possibly very dangerous principles that could get you in trouble you have to have a level of I Guess charismatic integrity and one thing you can dislike Cody, but from the very beginning He has not changed the principles that have motivated him And that is what I hope the film also captures but in far more in-depth than what anyone else has seen I think it has captured that it's a compelling documentary about a fascinating political figure the movies death athletic It's available for purchase now at deathathletic.com and on Google Amazon iTunes on October 21st. Jessica Solcher. Thank you for talking to reason. Thank you for having me Zach