 Hello, hello to you all and welcome for this session. The session on a very hot topic will be talking about the supra-ultra power of the big platforms, the GAFAM, as we name them in the US but in Asia and also we have quite a big groups like Tencent, Baidu, Aili Baba of course. Unfortunately in Europe companies are lagging behind and quite none of these companies are really influence in the Serena and one of the main response we have now in Europe is regulation. So we'll be talking about that. What is this regulation for? Is it helpful? Does it help innovation? Does it help the emergence of big supra-European champions? And for this session we have quite a great panel. I'm very proud to moderate this panel today. We have Thierry Breton, a European commissioner for internal markets, Bengt Elstrom, Nobel Prize and a professor at the MIT, Luke Julien, chief scientific officer just joined the group Renault and Jacques Cremaire, professor at the Toulouse School of Economics. And we'll start with you Jacques. You've been studying this topic of course for many years now and so what is your reflection on the actual situation? It's a very strange situation because in some sense we're all in love with big tech. I mean if Apple announces a new iPhone you've got queues for 24 hours or 48 hours waiting for the new iPhone. If you spend two hours on Facebook a day you are not even considered an addict. Everybody uses Google, or nearly everybody uses Google in order to access news, to access the internet, to find information. So big tech is part of our lives. We all became early adopters. Even late adopters. I remember my mother telling me, oh Google is not that fantastic when it appeared. So there's really this enthusiasm about big tech. We use it, we like it. So that's that our individual life. People use Alexa except to speak to big tech or Amazon Echo to speak to big tech and I think it's normal to have a friendly relationship with it. And then on the political level and on the media level big tech is the big nasty guys. They're taking over our lives, they're taking our data, they don't give us any choice, they keep us prisoners. So we've got this big tension I think in society which is creating lots of interesting ripples in the discussions of what policy. So Europe has taken the lead in trying to moderate the bad aspects of big tech. So I played a very, very minor role about three years ago when I helped write a report for the European Commission on how should competition policy be reformed. And then Europe has decided actually to go further than this, that managing competition wasn't enough. We should regulate competition and Commissioner Breton has been one of the people at the forefront of this effort to create new regulations for big tech. So there are really interesting questions about how do we regulate big tech, lower the bad aspects while not losing the good aspects. And then there's a secondary question which I think is very important and I hope we'll discuss is Europe is, it seems to me clearly behind in terms of innovation, especially in big tech. And I hope we will have a discussion also of clearly regulation is not going to be enough to promote European innovation. What else should we do in order to promote European innovation? So I'm really looking forward to this discussion with a commissioner with my old friend Benk and with Luke Julia. Good and we are very happy and honored to have Cherry Breton with us tonight today. Hello Mr. Breton, live from your office in Brussels. What's interesting in your role is that you are today, you play a main role of course in all these aspects today as Commissioner, but you have been leading big French companies in the tech area for most of your career. So you have this very good comprehension and you know what regulation is. How does it help? I mean, what's the aim, the goal of these regulations and does it really help to slow down these big tech giants? Well, good afternoon, good morning, good evening everyone from where you stand. First, Mr. Fontaine, I would like to react a little bit with your presentation. You said in Europe, we don't have big tech companies, but we have regulation. And I know this is a maraudier. I know that this is a common sense and I know that you keep repeating this. Even if I could tell you that it's probably not the case and I will try to demonstrate this to you, but still. I don't feel comfortable with the way this has been presented because I don't consider that my job as being in charge of digital in addition to the single market is not to regulate, it is just to organize it and it's not against anybody. So myself, I will not speak about your farm or batting or whatever. I will just speak about the necessity that as politicians, we just have to put some rules in our digital space because of course we did it in the physical space. We did this in the sea space. We did this in the earth space. And now of course we have to do it also in the digital or information space. That's my job because in this space, a lot of activity occurs. Of course, our social life, cultural life, political life, economic life. And if we listen to our people, our fellow citizens, by the way, everywhere on the planet, not only in Europe, including by the way in the US, we all remember what happened for capital. We just hear that there is a need to organize our digital space and see exactly what I will do and what I'm doing with our digital services act and our DMA digital market. Let's come with the first one. The first one is just again to put some rules to make sure that in a nutshell, realize and organize the fact that everything which is forbidden offline is forbidden online and everything which is accepted offline is accepted online. Simple sentence, simple words, not easy to do, but mandatory to do. Against no one, just for our people. And by the way, and I'm listening to what's happened in the States, it's exactly the same question. The second story is okay, but in this new information space, digital space, connect the way you want. Once you have put all these parts of information in, but okay, feel free to do it. You understand exactly what I mean. We just did also here to make sure we have some rules and to make sure that we have a fair competition, not against anybody. Because the last one we organized our digital space was in early 2000, you remember the Directive eCommerce, more than 20 years ago. So what we are doing now is organizing probably the rules for the next 10 to 20 years. And here, of course, we have to make sure that we will have fair competition, just fair competition, because this is what we need to innovate and to avoid, let's say, predatory behaviors, to avoid gatekeepers and behaviors. And it is here also against no one, because at the end of the day, even if we miss, I will conclude that here, even if we miss that absolutely certain, the first 12 of the data evolution slash revolution, the personal data, I am convinced that the new one which is coming now, the so-called industrial data, which is much higher, much bigger than the one we have to come with. And I'm sure that this user will understand exactly what I mean. We will, for this one, believe me, we are, and I will tell you, better position, that probably everyone, and this is where we focus my effort. And I want to organize this space to make sure that competition will allow everyone to be able to innovate and to expand themselves. But I may come back later on if you want on the DMA. But that's basically what I want to say. It's not against anybody. You will never listen to me saying it's against this or that. Because within the next 10 years, you know what, I am sure that you will see a new player in the industrial data space, unbelievable, very powerful. By the way, I have already two or three ideas of companies in Europe, but they will give this from me because I don't want to make new ones. Okay. Thank you very much, Mr. Boton. And I'm sure Bank will have a lot to say about what you just said. Hi, Bank. Live from Boston, from the MIT. Can you hear us, Bank? Yes. Yeah, good. So you just heard the Commissioner. And of course, these are topics that you've studied for many, many years. You're still looking at that very closely. What do you think about the situation now? I mean, just not only in Europe. Europe is, of course, a main topic tonight today. But what is the, how can you react to just Jerry Boton just said? Well, I think first thing to say, I think there is a real discontinuity that has happened in the last two years or so. Maybe Luke will tell. It's even earlier. But I think something very special is going on. And what has happened in my one way of putting it, data has become a web driver. That's one of the big things. And so we are talking about regulating data a lot, privacy, and so on. So digitization, which has been with us for much longer, is not really the new thing. No kid on the lot. It's the value of data and the concern about the privacy of data and so on. So that's what we are talking about. I think in the use of data, Europe is definitely behind China. China hasn't even been mentioned here. China is really ahead of a lot of places. US is also. And so I would not be very casual about the fact that Europe is actually falling behind. And the question to me is, what are they going to do about is regulation? And I appreciate that we should perhaps use the word regulation, organization, but it's a little bit semantic. That's how Europe portrays itself in this space, for good or for bad. That's the way people look at it. Let me just say some facts that are disturbing. One of which is that among the top 10 biggest companies, or most valuable companies of all, there are no Europeans or EU companies. And they are, I think, seven or eight, depending on when we measure seven or eight US and a couple of, so they have fallen in value recently. So it keeps changing. The other thing that is true is that seven of those 10 are platform businesses. There's not anywhere inside. SAP, I believe, is the highest value platform business in Europe. And it's not, I don't think it's even in the top 20. So there are some facts here about it's not because there's less people in Europe, there's more people in Europe than in the US, for instance. But so we have to, I think, be realistic about this fact. The most shocking data that recently came on the page is that when you look at the top 100 most valuable startups in the world, and this is just, I would say in January or somewhere that it came out, there is not a single central European company in that. Take out Switzerland. But I talked about the EU. The two companies from EU are actually Klarna in Sweden and Bolton in Estonia. One of them are in the US. I'm talking now companies that haven't had a trade sale or haven't gone IPO, meaning that they haven't exited, so to speak. So what it tells me is not actually that there are no startups in Europe because I know they are in Finland, say Supercell is a valuable company, but it sold itself out to the Chinese. So it's not in this statistic. And so it seems like European companies don't grow in Europe. They sell themselves out somewhere and I'm sure Luke has something a lot to tell, but that's the typical pattern. There's actually no Portuguese company that just entered this data, so if you look at it today, Portugal has a big. The venture capital market this week, in fact Finland, the world place, has the most venture capital per capita in Europe, and Portugal is quite high too. So central Europe again is lagging behind and is investing actually more in traditional businesses like modernizing the auto business and so on. So I think that's something to be concerned about. I think that I don't want to speak to the regulation. Let me just come with what I think would be a positive step. And the positive step would be to focus and a positive step is that Europe has decided to invest in, you know, climate change and innovation and digitization. I would urge to focus some of that money around universities because if you look at the US, where are the centers of stock of business? You know, it's in Silicon Valley. Take out Stanford and there would be no Silicon Valley. Take out MIT and Harvard and there would be no pharma, you know, valley here in Boston. So things happen around universities and what's even more important to say, it's not driven by the research alone. It's actually driven very much by the undergraduate students. Those are the ones who start up businesses and look at Silicon Valley and you know, I'm sure you look would agree with me. A lot of them are undergraduates actually dropouts. We didn't finish even the undergraduate degrees. And so this understanding that it is actually the undergraduates should be in the focus here. It is a very important one message, I think, for Europe. Thank you, Ben. This is a very good transition with our other guest, with our fourth guest, Luc, a quarter of a century ago, across the Atlantic. He was a fresh diplomat from a very well-known French school and went to, I think you were maybe a training when you joined Silicon Valley, right, Luc? And never come back. You're still there 25 or 26 years later. What happened? And what is your vision? What's your analysis on how things have changed over the past few decades? And are you optimistic, pessimistic? Yeah, I'm very optimistic actually because I'm always optimistic. I'm working for a French company now, so you better watch out. Yeah, but I'm very optimistic and actually I'm not going to tell the story or the history, but I'm going to come back to regulation because this is, you know, what we're talking about. And really, I mean, it's weird because I'm seen as a pro-regulation guy, right? I mean, I'm an innovator and so on. But I love regulation, actually. I want regulation. I'm going to explain why. So first of all, I'm going to rebound on what Thierry Boton said. In the physical world, we are doing regulation. We have to regulate, and then we have to do the same thing in the digital world. That's totally true. I mean, we need to have, you know, some rules because otherwise, you know, it's going to be a mess. The issue, most likely, you know, in the digital world is that regulation is not that easy because it's not, you know, a physical space that is in 3D, right? So the space that is much more complicated to regulate, right? So anyway, what I'm saying here is that we need to regulate, but the reality is that in the digital world, because it's so complicated to regulate, it doesn't work very well to, for instance, prevent Facebook or whomever to do something that we don't want them to do. And they're still doing it because they can't go around. But I think that regulation has one virtue that is actually very, very good. It's education because when you regulate, somehow, you give the people, you know, some keys about what should happen and what shouldn't happen. You give them the rules. And so when they see that there is a rule, but there is regulation, they are wondering why it's happening. And then, you know, it's going to follow by having people saying, okay, if there is regulation, it's because, you know, there is something I shouldn't do. And they're going to ask for this thing that was in regulation. So actually, the reverse way it's going to come from the people at the end of the day. And when you see, for instance, you know, the latest Apple OS, iOS, that is basically cutting, I mean, doing some things that GDPR wanted to do. I mean, it's coming from the people because people asked for it. And Apple was smart enough, in this case, to, you know, provide to the people what they asked to do. It wasn't because of the regulation. They didn't do that, you know, in May 18, when the regulation came up. They did that two years later, because people were asking for it because the regulation had been made and had been taken by the people. This is what I believe. Maybe Thierry Breton, would you agree with that analysis? Is that also what you think and what Luc just said on of course, Bank, would you like to react on that? Well, you know, first, I really would like to tell you that in order to proceed, we have done the largest consultation ever. And not only in Finland, everywhere. We did the largest consultation ever for almost more than a year. We had 3,000 contributions from governments, NGOs, platforms, damage, the whole answer. And we did something which I believe it's pretty balanced, to make sure that we will do the right things. In order to do this, are you right? It's extremely complex to think how to organize it. But we know that we have to do it. We are politicians. It's our job. It's not to put barriers. It's just to give, I run many companies myself. You know what I needed, Ben? I needed to have visibility. I needed to know what I had to do and not to do. And then adapt myself. And they don't exist in the digital space. We just try to give these guidelines. They're not too strong. They're not too tough. But that's our guidelines. And by the way, Ben, I would like to ask you one question. Because you say that... Who are you asking? Everybody? Our professor from the other side of the Charles River. And you know, you say there's no capacity for startups in Europe and so on. It's not true. It's not true at all. Look at the crisis we are in. Come back one minute if you allow me. The vaccine strategy. This is a story of European startups. Name it. BioNTech developed finance in Europe with European money. Come back. Same story. Johnson. Same story. Oxford. Then married with AstraZeneca. Same story. On the five vaccines. Where they are now? Okay. It was developed. And the technology which was initiated in Europe, in Boston. But not too far from where you stay. I know. Four of the five vaccines have been developed by startups or academics in Europe with European money. But it's true. Thanks to American money, through the Barda, we have been able to accelerate then the roll out of these vaccines. Clinical trials. Not the science. It has been done in Europe with European startups. And that's the story that you need to have in mind. This is what's happening. I could tell you on the ground. Another question. You mentioned SAP. SAP is not a platform business. It's a software company. The value of SAP is $139 billion, which is small. Another very important European company which values in technology is twice as big as SAP. Do you know it? Does anyone know this company? It is from very far. Our most valuable European technological company. Totally indispensable for the digital space. Do you know this company? I would say ATOS. You know it. Because you were using it at Samsung. It's called SML. There's a world leader being able to make microchip down to two nanometers. 95% of the market value 280,000. That's close to LVMH, by the way. So in other words, I know that there is this story, what you described. I see another one on the ground. But it's true that we are still far. It's true that we have to catch up. It's true that we have to accelerate. And my mission is to make sure that I will be able to provide what is needed for this energy, for this young talents to do exactly what they did in the digital space, like what they did in the pharmaceutical space. So let's maybe we'll go back to Banked because he was asked a question and then we'll come back on this side of the Atlantic with Jacques, who has also something to say. Banked, do you want to react to the or answer the commissioner's question? Yes. So first of all, I did not say that Europe doesn't have any startups. I said that when they go exit, they go somewhere else often. That was my point. So it was a point of venture capital. I understand very well that the startup business in Finland is doing very well in some ways. But it's still true that if you ask an entrepreneur that's he or she want to want to sort of be in Europe or go into Silicon Valley, they take the Silicon Valley money, not because they have money, because this is not at all about money. This is about contacts, it's about experience and so on that look and talk about. China is a different story, but they have their own model of it as well. So I don't think we need to argue about that. I think we need to ask for Europe. And by the way, I'm totally European. I'm not an American citizen. So I feel like I have the right to engage in this conversation from the inside as opposed to outside in that sense. I am worried about this here. That's where I'm coming from. And I would love to see Europe prosper. And I think that Europe will be able to prosper. And that's why I suggested, I'm glad that they are focusing on innovation. But to take another issue, which is big, what's so special about data is the scalability. And the platforms and the scalability is the big new things that can be the new technologies. And this is why all these big companies that are so valuable are in this category. And in that respect, payment systems turn out to be very important for us. So for the Chinese experience, payment systems, they really have only two private ones, Alipay and WeChat Pay. They are phenomenal, phenomenal drivers of the ecosystem and the fact that they get the data and process the data. This is not just about having the data, it is actually about using the data in some efficient way. And it is here, for instance, where the PSD2, which is very well-intentioned, is just, I mean, we can't start arguing, but PSD2 is meant to be a payment system, its payment system directive, take two. And it just, it basically gives it to the individuals to decide how the data is used and also for banks to be sort of the depositors or depositors of the data. And as an economist, I see a lot of free rider problems and other problems, you know, in terms of if you give it to the, which one is better, give it to somebody, sort of a coordinating player versus, you know, give it to individuals, I think that's going to be a slow process and that's why we don't see as high valuations even among the big data companies in Europe. Thank you, Bank. Jacques, you wanted to react maybe on what the commission has said and maybe on what Bank just said. Just two things. One thing on what Bank say, and I've got a question then for the three of them, actually. So one thing on what Bank said about universities, but I think it's a more general problem. I don't think that the, I mean, there is clearly a problem of funding of European universities, but right now I would be very much against, for instance, funding huge amounts to French universities without the reform of the university so that they function. There's a structural problem which has to be solved before you can ask our, you know, French people to put more money in that system. Actually, I mean, when I hear you speaking, actually, I mean, you're putting different words on it, but you're saying the same thing. Bank is saying Europe is late and the commissioner is saying Europe is doing things that needs to do more. So, you know, it's Boney Blanc Blanc Boney, as we say in French. So one thing which I would like you to discuss a little, which I think would be interesting for you to discuss a bit more, is what do you think are the priorities for European innovation, especially in the tech world? And in particular, I'd be very interested to know how Luc feels after now having put his toes back into a French, you know, European industry. You know, what does he think is going well? What does he think? I mean, I'm not asking you for secrets and I know it's a little bit difficult for you, but you know, what do you think are the good points? What are the bad points? What should be done? I think Luc is very direct and cash. I think he can answer that question, right? Yeah, I can answer it. I mean, I won't give you any secret because I don't have any. But what I can say, I mean, is that as Thierry Botton said it actually at the beginning as well, I mean, we have an incredible amount of very interesting things to do next. So we need a frame to do it. But once we have the frame, I really believe that in France in particular, because you see what I can talk about, we have a lot of very, very interesting things to do at the industrial level. We didn't dare, maybe, you know, not enough. But if I take the case of Renault, I mean, I really, really believe that we can transform Renault as a real digital company, right? I mean, today, obviously, you know, cars, it's metal, right? But I really believe we can because there is a lot, a lot of data that can be coming from those cars, from the people using the cars and from all that. So there is something to do. But I mean, we need a frame, we need to be sure that we're going to do it correctly. And we need to be sure that these data we're not going to give it to anybody or anyone, you know, without any, you know, money back or something. So that's something that is, I think, a strength that we have in all the old industry in Europe. Thierry Moton, is that, since you have both in you? No, I 100% agree with what Julia just said, 100%. Of course, we are here to do more. Of course, we want to do more. By the way, I agree also with Mr. Kramer when he says that don't put money in front of universities before big reforms. So that's, I think you're absolutely right. And I'm sure you have a good idea what to do here. But still, you know, I organized, if I may say so, our European single market in 14 ecosystems just to make sure that I will be able, it was very important for me during the crisis, because these ecosystems are, you can, you have the one from automotive industry, you have the one from tourism, you have the one from retail, you have the one from defense, you have the one from pharmaceutical industry. And of course, in these ecosystems, you have big companies, but you have a lot of small companies, medium sized startups, innovators, academic research centers. I put all this in these ecosystems, and you will be amazed how vibrant it is, how dynamic it is. And they all understand, they all understand that it will come with data and with exactly what you send industrial data. So then, of course, and of course, automotive industry, by the way, it's funny because we were thinking in the past centuries that we're not thinking, we realized in the past centuries that automotive industry was driven innovation. And then we thought at the beginning of the century when we heard of the platform, they're saying, we are doing everything, you're dead, that's okay, automotive industry is dead. And now, look what automotive industry is still driving big time innovation here again. So now I understand why you're back in the automotive industry coming from something, but still, my point here is that we will generate data like never. Today, the planet is 40 zettabytes of data. Most of them are personal data. During my mandate, it's four years, it's four years to go still. We multiply by four, most of them, it will be from 40 zettabytes to 175 zettabytes. Most of them will come from industrial data. And this is why we want to organize here because in the Data Governments Act, just to organize in the car industry for you. You have data which are extremely important for you, you will never change. But you have data that you provided, your data and connected car are providing probably 30 petal per day of data per day. That's a lot. You have now in your cars, you have supercomputers now, 10 years, they're HPCs. And of course, these data, you will be probably happy to share this with your peers because then you will be able to create innovation. So we are working on this to have the right data pool on a voluntary basis, allowing to share and to create innovation. So we're doing a lot of things here. It's just to get ready. It's just organized. Can I speak to this? I want to give you the, of course, go ahead. Well, this is very important. I think the mindset from my perspective is not the right one. I understand that you are thinking that you need to orchestrate the whole thing. But I tell you what, businesses are very good and very central in orchestrating things, both by agreeing with each other, various things, and also especially organizing, for instance, ecosystems. You just, why do you think that the ecosystems in the United States have grown so big and why they are equally big in Asia? Is that because the government has actually organized and orchestrated it or maybe it is because the government has not touched it? I mean, there is a problem besides, there's a problem with privacy. But to argue that the government has to somehow tell how these kids will play in the sandbox seems to be your error in mindset. It's not, you know, I can see privacy a big issue, but that's something that I actually think it should be handed to the government. So they should supervise it in some manner rather than letting individuals, doing it for the individuals so to speak, represent the individuals. But in terms of how you organize ecosystems and so on, I mean, the evidence is just obvious. It is that companies can do it very well themselves and they understand how to what they call internalized externalities. Just look at that. I mean, have you been in China recently? Of course, I think there's a big misunderstanding. We are not organizing the ecosystem. The stakeholders are organizing it. Big misunderstanding. Okay, so we are not organizing ourselves to follow this ecosystem which has been fully organized, not by us. Why the companies? I run companies on my life. I know exactly what you're talking about. I'm here as a commission by accident. I'm the first CEO being a commissioner. So I'm an accident of history. This is what, believe me, I'm 100% with you. And I'm avoiding, of course, my people to do what you say. This is again, in the end of the stakeholders, but guess what? Before I joined, my DG point of market, it's called DigiGrow, was organized exactly like you said in a communist country. I said, look, let's ask the industry how you want to organize themselves. They came back, it's 14. Okay, fine. Who are you? We are big companies, small companies that claim great. How do you want to organize yourself? Let us do, but not organize yourself to be our counterpart. This is what we do. We are doing exactly what you do. And you know what? It seems to work. I disagree with both last statements. I don't think it's working as well. And I don't agree that that's what you are doing. I mean, PSD2, for instance, is a good example of something that I think is a big issue. And you know how well it is. And actually the UK, UK is using it the best way, better than anybody inside the EU. UK has not privy to the details, but they seem to have been advancing the made use of the PSD, the payment system platform. But I think Europe could do. I mean, I think it's important to get the right mindset here. And frankly, I really don't understand what you mean by saying that you are following the business. It seems to me that there are fairly serious constraints on the business that you are putting in. I mean, conditional on things having gone the way they have been going. So that's hard to agree on that when you look at the United States and even China. So at the end of the day, you talked about China and the US, it's the same situation in the US. Do you first need to regulate and then do the company, let the company organize themselves? Or the contrary, just let the company organize themselves and then regulate? I mean, when you see what's happening in the US and in China right now, it seems like the authorities are trying to, I mean, to calm down all these big tech giants, right? Mr. Botton, you want to maybe rebound on what's, Mr... No, no, that's true. That's true. I am in contact, of course, with my counterpart in the US and the extremely interesting with what we are doing, because we did it again, but about starting by the business, as I said with the last consultation. It's not at all what has been described. It's absolutely not a top-down approach. Absolutely not. We are business-oriented people, too. So we know this extremely well. But on the other hand, we need to adapt ourselves. Let me give you an example here, which has nothing to do here again with the data governance, but still not too far. I have been in charge also, as you maybe know, of the vaccine delivery in the EU since the beginning of February. It has been painful. You know why it has been painful? Because we had absolutely no obligation in our pharmaceutical industry. Of course, there are some things, which is an industry which is for health reasons organized and regulated. But we were open to everyone and so on. And we had many supply chains everywhere in the world. Most of them were in the US. And the US took an executive order. They decided that not one single vaccine will leave the US until you get herd immunity in the US. And they decided that not one single component of the vaccine will leave the US. And they have many companies, European companies, having subsidiary in the US, in total blocked. They tried to engage and so on. And we were free. We are open. We are an open continent. Impossible to discuss with my counterpart, Jeff Zayans. And then we decided to put a tool, regulate, saying now we will control. I hate to do this, but I had to do this, to be able to get the vaccines for our people. And I said, look, everything now which will leave the Europe will need to have our approval, at least for the next export. And guess what? I started to enter into discussion with the US. They are still closed. They don't send one single dose outside of the EU. But at least I can reopen the supply chains. And that's an example where regulation, forced regulation, allows now to be the first continent in terms not only of discovery vaccines, but producing vaccines. That's just an example of sometimes need to adapt yourself, even if like me, we are not for regulation, for regulation, but you just need to adapt yourself. And you know, let's now think in the digital world, we will not regulate, we just need to adapt ourselves to this new world. That's it. But let's try to do it with everyone together. And you know what? When I'm discussing with all my friends or former friends, when I was a CEO of the digital environment, they understand very well what we are doing, extremely well. And to tell you the truth, they're quite supportive. So you're talking about the American but I know you're talking about Google and Facebook and all these guys or of course, yeah, you know that it's public. I think Jack wanted to intervene. Yeah, except if Luc wanted to say something because maybe one case study to go a little bit further on this is given that you're speaking on data. And I know that the commission has been very, very active on trying to promote European data space and so on. And I've been discussing that also. One of the big infrastructure of the next 10 years, which is going to be very important for data is cloud computing. Cloud computing right now is dominated by free American companies, Amazon, Microsoft and Google, who actually have been, I mean, the way we've been brilliant in the way in which they've developed this. So without even thinking about what do we need to do now, you know, given the importance of data, what went wrong in the fact that this new industry, you know, this new way of computing which was created in the last, basically developed in the last 10 years, why is it that it's free American companies who are totally dominating that market? I mean, and, you know, what does it mean? I mean, does it mean something in terms of our systems in Europe and what do we need to change? Luc, you want to take that one? I mean, the capital that was invested in those three companies that you are talking about, and there were not small companies when they started that, right? I mean, they were already very established company with a lot, a lot, a lot of money. And to create clouds, basically, you need to get a lot of money and to create in those big infrastructure without any return for a long time. So that's the main issue is that maybe in Europe or even in Asia, maybe, I mean, even though in Asia they had those companies and they did create their own clouds because they didn't accept to get any other clouds from anywhere else. But anyway, so maybe in Europe, we didn't have the capital to just back up this kind of infrastructure and this kind of business that would be long-term businesses. No, no, I mean, we have a capital. We are not a poor continent. Why doesn't our capital, why isn't our capital put to that use? This is a very real question, it seems to me. It's all, let me, can I say something? I mean, this is a typical answer. This is a typical comment in the sense that the US has the money and this is about universities often. But why do they have the money? It's actually a sign of something that's working. And it's employing the money, just like Jacques said, there is the money here, but it's not being put into the use that apparently it should. So I think that really needs to rethink this whole thing. Let me say that what is happening in China and US is very different from each other. They are very different in terms of the system. And I'm not suggesting we would go in the Chinese direction, but we could still learn some things from China, that's for sure. But the key thing is that they both sides have left these companies to innovate. They have not started with regulation, because it's so uncertain. Data is a totally different animal to regulate than a traditional, because it's a non-rival good, as we call it. It's who should own it. We can't even put quantity constraints on data, because the value of data has to do with how it's used, and it can be duplicated. And so on. So it's a totally different world, at least for an economy, is to be looking at that. And they have left these markets work themselves out, or the systems, I should say, rather than marks. We made China left, let the Alipay and Tencent do what they pretty free hands to do. And by the way, other companies also. But now that they see what's happening, and when I look at the bigness of companies in the United States, I think they need to calm down on them somehow. That's that we have now seen how it plays itself out. So now we know, I think we are in better position to regulate in some manner. But I think my concern is that when you don't, when you are entering this totally new business, you have to be flexible. And I don't see the way the way you see it, Mr. Breton, that that somehow the system in Europe is very flexible. It has taken a long time to get there for obvious reasons. I'm not criticizing Europe. Europe is a collection of countries. It's not like United States or China, single countries. So there are a lot more challenges in Europe. But the fact one has to be willing to recognize these challenges, it seems to me. Otherwise, we are not going to get to speed or development that I would like to see. Thank you, Brent. We only have a few minutes to go. And I would just have to make a last round around this table of your feeling. Let's go just beyond regulation and see how optimistic or pessimistic you are about Europe in this digital arena. Luke, let's start with you maybe as the expert in artificial intelligence. What are the chances of Europe and France to succeed in that scene? Yeah. So I mean, I have a very optimistic view again for the French technology there because frankly, today and tomorrow AI is just about mathematics, right? And we are one of the best people, best country in mathematics in general. We can count that with the middle, the field middles that we are getting. But anyway, so I really believe that our engineers, and we talked about education before and we said that it's not very good, but I don't know. But I mean, what I see actually is that it's pretty good. All the engineers that I see coming my way or that I'm hiring in both sides of the Atlantic and when they are French engineers, I see that they are very, very good. So I really believe that our education system produces some very good people to do specifically AI. And that's why I'm optimistic that we can have a lot of good companies. I mean, now a lot of those companies, the startups that were created in France, I mean, for the past almost 10 years now, they are actually producing and using those new talents, you know, in a better way than it was 20, 30 years ago, I think. So I think it's changing. And I think that for specifically the startups, the talents in startups and AI, we have a big, big chance on the French side. So how is the French economic professor seeing the future on that, on that topic? I'm not sure. I mean, the middle, it can go both ways. So just one thing, because I mean, it's such a big question that I can't speak about everything. I've been working quite a bit on the DMA and trying to understand, you know, what's behind it and the theory behind the DMA and so on. And it's clear that the DMA has got some very good components and has got some aspects, you know, which I find a little bit more iffy. And whether or not it's, and very, lots is going to depend on the implementation. Okay. So I think we, so we're speaking about the regulation of platforms in particular. I think Europe has set up some regulatory framework, but regulatory framework leave, I mean, they're not just rules, they have to be managed and so on. And I think that lots of what's going to happen in the next 10 years is going to depend on the way in which we manage those regulations. And that's going to be a really interesting right to follow. Banked. I'm sure there's still something optimistic in you about Europe, deep inside. I'm very optimistic, like Luke, on this new technology. I'm not excited about it. I mean, following it, it's fascinating. It's absolutely fascinating. But one has to understand that in order to turn it to economic benefit, you need organization. And what we are debating here in some sense is how much should be government, how much should be private. And that boundary is hugely important. But where do you draw it? And my comment is that I think, I think we should give more slack to the companies in the beginning and invest in training of entrepreneurs. Entrepreneurship in the US by these data that I gave you is not what it could be might be. So it's all about organization. There's nothing wrong with the intelligence in Europe. They are just as intelligent as the US or more so. You know, the question is how do they organize themselves? And is it the government or is it the private side and where the boundary goes? And for my taste, the boundary is not right right now. And with you, you'll have the last word. I think it will be definitely a pre-COVID and a post-COVID situation. Because the US government never put, and by the way, some in Europe, but not like the US government, as much money in private companies like Naver because of the crisis. And it's funny because we are in a situation where we see because of the crisis, the government is putting a lot of money, a lot of money in companies directly or indirectly, a lot. By the way, they're playing in China also. By the way, they're playing field here. We don't seem to watch very carefully. For somebody who met also, you're always carrying your organ in the private sector, and they're running company. This is a real scary. And there's a big difference between the US and Europe. We are lagging behind the US injecting tons of public money in private companies. Let me give you one example, just to end, because it was one question, which was the rest. Why did they miss the cloud? It's a good question. Because of course, they had the data because they had to build the servers because they had to do it for themselves, for their own needs. This is how they build AWS, by the way. We know the story. And that's why they are successful, which is not exactly the case on Google Cloud when they wanted to start from scratch. But still, now they all understand that the next fight will be in industrial data, with the industrial cloud, with very different KPIs, very different latencies, very different cybersecurity constraints, and no one insists on the market. So, Pentagon launched a big call for tender. And look, this is what I need. Only US companies were allowed to build. Fine. I respect this, and I can understand. Two of which AWS and Microsoft fighting like hell, because that was so much money given by the Pentagon for this. Finally, you know the story. I got the phone, everybody was just doing it. So, you know, that's the new world. A lot of public money. That's for me, I can company. It's good. I don't criticize, but this is what happened. So now, what was my answer? My answer was, okay, look, let's have all the players from the industry damage. What do you think are the constraints? What exactly you need in terms of industrial cloud? What is your requirement? And they work together as they have their own KPIs, as they have their own tools. And now we are using what are part of our capacity to do it openly, but to invest also with member states to do a little bit what the US is doing for our own companies. Okay. Well, thank you very much for this. Thank you. Thank you very much, Thierry Broton. Thank you, Banked. And thank you, Luc, on the other side of the Atlantic. Merci, Jacques. Thank you to you all. Stay safe. Merci à tous de nous avoir suivis.