 Hello, welcome to Midlife Chris, the podcast brought to you by BAMSouth.com, I'm your host Jack Chris, happy 2016, happy new year. We are very pleased to be joined by a good friend of mine and a noted libertarian scholar, and thinker, and advocate, Mr. Steffen Kinsella, who is at his home in Houston, Texas. Steffen has become known for a lot of things in his career. Mainly though, what we're going to talk about today briefly is his opposition to intellectual property and copyright. Now, Steffen is a patent attorney, and yet he is opposed to this concept and has gone so far in an article even that we publish in BAMSouth.com is calling it one of the greatest evils facing lovers of freedom in this country today. Steffen, welcome to the show, happy new year. Happy new year to you, Jack. Listen, we can get theoretical about this, and I know you have, and for people who are interested, we'll give them more resources later, but let's start with the whole premise. Intellectual property, most people take that as a given as part of property rights like owning a house or a car. If I produce something, if I create it, I own it. It's mine, and yet you say that this is incorrect. Moreover, it is, as you have said, evil. Can you give us in a nutshell why you're opposed to intellectual property, and what is the inherent problem with the whole concept? Well, so let's take the two biggest forms of intellectual property, so-called intellectual property. Actually, it should not be called a property right because it is not really a natural property right. That's just the name that was given to this by defenders of these two basically state grants of monopoly privilege, patent, and copyright. The reason I oppose them is that they both infringe human rights and property rights, and they're antithetical to freedom of speech and the free market and competition. A patent basically means that if you come up with an invention, you are protected from competition for about 17 years. Now, the free market, in my mind, is about competition, and if you come up with a product on the market and other people see that, and it's popular, and they want to emulate that to compete with you, that is part of the free market process. There is no reason that you should have a 17-year monopoly protection over a given idea. If it should be 17, why not make it 1,000 years or 1,000 years? Why should it last forever if you really have a right to this idea that you came up with? But doesn't it keep people from stealing your idea or putting their name on something that you have written or created? Isn't that part of the underlying premise behind now? That's just one of the smoke screens that's used by defenders of these systems. There's a lot of companies that make lots of money off of the patent and the copyright system. The publishing industry at Hollywood make lots of money off of the monopoly position that copyright gives them in movies and books and music and software, and patent system protects entrenched industries from competition, like you have the smartphone players, Apple, Samsung, companies like that face much reduced competition because they each sit on war chests of thousands and tens of thousands of patents, which they can use to attack anyone who dares to compete with them. A lot of small, upstart companies cannot compete with these larger companies, so it basically results in oligopolies and cartels. The problem with patent systems is that it basically is protectionism and it reparts innovation and slows down innovation. If you are a company that's sitting on a bunch of patents and you have a monopoly position in a given industry, you have less incentive to innovate because you can just sit on your laurels for 17 years and collect monopoly profits from your products. But, Stephanie, you and I both know a lot of conservatives, a lot of free market advocates, objectivists, and even some libertarians who defend the copyright system as part and parcel of a capitalist system. The way you describe it, it's like a conspiracy, or it's like these Hollywood conglomerates have gotten together and said, all right, we're going to push and promote copyright and our law firms are and keep competition away and stifle it. Well, it's not surprising that most patent attorneys whose bread is buttered by the patent system are in favor of it any more than a surprising that public school teachers are in favor of government schools. It's not surprising that industries that are entrenched and they profit off of this system by basically taking money from the consumer or by making them poor because there's less innovation and less competition. It's not surprising that they're in favor of it. It's not surprising that they have Congress in their pockets. But in a nutshell, what happened was historically, patents arose as protectionist monopoly grants of privilege by kings to cronies, and copyrights arose as a way of fought control and censorship when the printing press emerged. And these things morphed into the system that we have in the US today and the West today. I think the founders of the country put patent and copyright into the Constitution because they were confused and probably because a lot of them were the authors and inventors of the day. They were the type of class that would benefit from these types of privileges. But that doesn't mean they had a lot of empirical evidence or that it was justified. It's morphed into something truly horrible. It does stifle creativity. It threatens freedom on the internet because you have various treaties and laws coming in the name of copyright protection that are threatening freedom on the internet. And the internet is one of the most important tools that we human beings have as a weapon to fight for liberty and to fight the charity of the state. We need to communicate with each other. We need to be able to have total freedom on the internet. And anything that threatens that is very dangerous to human liberty, in my opinion. Well, no one argues that, but I've heard the case made for copyright and patent from people who say, well, it protects my property, keeps other people from stealing my ideas. I mean, if I write a manuscript and I don't copyright it, Stephen Canceler or Rob Dillard or anybody could pick it up and go publish it under their name and I'm left holding the bag even though I created it. Well, so that, I wouldn't call copying some pattern of information stealing. It's just being copying. So people call it stealing or theft just as an argumentative tactic. When you copy something, you're not stealing it. If you put your name on someone else's manuscript, that is dishonest and that's lying, but we actually don't make lying illegal as a crime either in this country. Lying is not illegal. And if that was a real risk, why aren't people doing that right now with the hundreds of thousands of public domain works that are not protected by copyright? So for example, Jack, you could publish tomorrow. You could take, what's your favorite Aristotle book, maybe the Nikomaki and Ethics. Okay, you could publish that tomorrow. You could call it Jack Chris's Ethics. You could just copy it and publish it. There's no law preventing that whatsoever. But why don't people do that? Because they would be looked at like laughing stocks. They would be frauds. So copyright is not about stopping fraud or not about stopping a consumer fraud. It's not about stopping plagiarism either. It's only about preventing copying. It's amazing to me though, the way you describe it, and we published your articles, as I mentioned, on Bamsouth.com. You've been on the John Stossel show on Fox Business. You've spoken all over the world. It sounds commonsensical to me and yet every law firm in this country is full of intellectual property arms and it's considered a such a big thing. The Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank, is in favor of it. The Inran Institute, a free market think tank is in favor of it. You're bucking the trend. I don't know if it's so apparent why it's so controversial. Well, for some reason, the sales job that was done by the interest industry that were in favor of these laws has worked. Them calling it intellectual property was a brilliant tactical move which they did in response to these economists in the 1800s, the free market economists who were opposed to the rise of copyright and patent systems. They saw them as a monopoly grant by the state which were contrary to the free market. In response to this growing criticism of these laws, the industries that were relying upon copyright and patents like the certain entrenched innovative industries and the publishing industries lobbied by calling it intellectual property. They wanted to make everyone think it's just a part of a proper terrarium system, part of the capitalist western system. After all, you can buy and sell and trade these rights and people make money off of it. The thing is, Jack, we have to realize, we have to have a shift in our thinking. We have to realize that copying is a good thing. It's not a bad thing. Instead of calling it stealing, we need to call it what it is. It's copying. In another word for that, it's called learning. In another word for that, it's called competition. We all are in favor of the free market and competition. But when you compete, what do you do? You emulate what other people are doing that's successful and you start doing what they're doing to get some of their customers. I could say you stole my customer, but that word steal is not actually legitimate there. You didn't steal a customer because you don't own your customers. People have the right to do what they want. Competition is fun. Copying someone's works, look, if you don't want your work to be copied, don't make it public. That's the basic answer. If you put something out on the market, you have to face the fact that you might have competition and people might actually learn from you and emulate what you're doing. But I can't make a profit off of my creation if I don't put it out there. Well, we have copying right now. It's called piracy. So piracy is widespread. And yet the Star Wars movie, which had a $200 million budget, is already at $1.5 billion in gross revenues, even in the face of piracy and copying. So apparently it is possible to make a profit. Tylenol sells for twice the price of the generic acetaminophen on the shelf of the drugstore. And yet some people buy Tylenol still. There are ways to make profits. And anyway, the point of the law and the role of the government is not to make sure you can make a profit doing what you want to do. It's your job to figure out how to make a profit given an institutional framework that respects property rights, but doesn't give you protection over your information that's in your head. If you don't want information to become public, don't reveal it to anyone else. Our guest is Stephen Cansella on the Midlife Chris Show. I'm Jack Criss. And I know you're about to appear on the Tom Woods podcast, one of our favorites. So we're not going to keep you much longer. But how much does intellectual property laws hurt us, Stephen, every year in this country? And how tangibly does copyright hurt us without us even knowing it? Copyrights are harder to estimate the dollar amount of harm that it does. I think copyright is more of a threat to freedom, basically. It's like estimating the cost of censorship. I don't know the financial cost of censorship. I do believe copyright law heavily distorts culture. It changes things from the way they would be. For example, the reason we have so many sequels in Hollywood is because of the way copyright works. They're protected. No one can make a knockoff of a movie or a sequel without permission of the original. And so the established players just do sequels. So it's distorted culture. And it also threatens internet freedom. So I would say copyright is the biggest harm existentially to us as a species because it threatens human liberty. Patents, I think, basically retard innovation and cost us hundreds of millions of dollars. It's not billions every year. I've tried to do estimates. My rough guess is that the patent system probably costs maybe a trillion dollars a year to the world in net loss because of lost innovation and all the costs we have to pay for patent attorneys and for higher product prices and for reduced competition. So the cost of the patent system is immense and huge. It slows down innovation and it costs us lots of welfare and resources and money every year. The copyright system reduces our liberty substantially. Unbelievable. Stefan, now you have got speeches, articles, books all over the internet, and it's not copyrighted, I suppose. What is your email address or what is your website? How can people read and learn more about your opposition to intellectual property? All my material is on StefanKinsella.com, and I have a CC0 license on there, which means I have no copyright claim or anything. Anyone is free to take it. You can even put your name on it if you want. I don't care. I may do that. Now, look, before we let you go, you call yourself an anarcho-capitalist. Briefly, what is that? What does that mean? And I take it you don't vote. I don't vote. I don't think politics is a legitimate—I don't think it's an effective way of making change because the worst rights at the top and all the politicians are the good ones that are good at it, like Bill Clinton. They're basically going to be sellouts and socialists and one strike or the other. Anarcho-capitalism just means a consistent libertarian, who believes in strong individual rights, free market, property rights, and as opposed to all forms of aggression or crime. We use that word because capitalists were used by Ayn Rand as a synonym for libertarian, and we say anarcho to emphasize that we also are opposed to the state as the biggest institutionalized form of aggression or crime in human life. All fascinating. We're going to have you on again. Before we let you go, those Steffan Cancella here on the Midlife Chris, we're going to put you in the hot seat, ask you some questions so people can find out more about who the real Steffan Cancella is. First of all, Stefan, what's the best cigar out there in the market? I don't know the best. I don't know if there is a best, but you can't go wrong with, like, a good Romeo and Juliet from Cuba. All right. What's the best wine out there? Oh, well, there's a good, I told you earlier, there's a good Gergith Hills Chardonnay, which is really nice, but if you really feel the best one, it's got to be a red, probably a Zinfandel or Burgundy. And those are, it's hard to pick. There's so many good ones. Okay. The best song ever written. Wish you were here, Pink Floyd. The worst song ever written. Um, Uncle Albert by the Beatles. That's Paul McCartney and Wings. Damn it. Get it right. If you're going to criticize the song. Okay. Finally, the most excluding your lovely wife, Cindy, the most beautiful woman in the world is... Okay. I was going to say Halle Berry. She's a contender, but the Italian actress from The Matrix, you know what I mean, Monica Balucci. Ah, okay. Well, there we go. See now, now we know more about Stefan Cancella than probably we care to know. Our guest, Mr. Stefan Cancella from Houston, Texas. I'm Jack Chris. This is the Midlife Chris Show. Stefan, happy new year, man. And I hope 2016 is good to you. Happy new year to you, man. All right. Take care. I'm Jack Chris. Stay with us. We're going to be back with more Midlife Chris after just a brief break. This is the Midlife Chris podcast on bamsouth.com. I'm your host, Jack Chris. Happy new year. We are very pleased to be joined via telephone. Professor Eric Thomas Weber, who is actually a very well-known author. He is a professor at Ole Miss, University of Mississippi, Associate Professor of Public Policy Leadership. He is the author of Rawls, Dewey, and Constructivism, rather, and Morality, Leadership and Public Policy, as well as his two most recent books, Democracy and Leadership on Pragmatism and Virtue, and the Recent Uniting Mississippi, which I believe, Eric, the latter two were both published by University of Press of Mississippi. Is that correct? Well, the last one was. The prior one, Democracy and Leadership, came out with Lexington Books. I see. Well, listen, welcome to Midlife Chris, and happy new year. Thank you very much, and same to you. Eric, what brought you to Ole Miss, first of all? I mean, you teach philosophy, and you've made a name for yourself. Tell us a little bit about your background. Well, first of all, thanks for having me on. And secondly, well, I do teach philosophy as a subject matter, but I do so in a program called Public Policy Leadership, and that's what brought me to the University of Mississippi. My background is in philosophy, as you said, but I'm most interested in the practical applications of philosophy, and there are many of those, though lots of people aren't very much aware of them. And so when I saw an opportunity to be the practical philosopher in a program called Public Policy Leadership, where I'll be able to focus on ethics and public policy as well as the philosophy of leadership, it sounded just like what I was looking for, and so that's what brought me to Oxford. You know, I know a little philosophy, and that makes me a dangerous person, but shouldn't all philosophy be practical? I mean, you have to teach your students that this is not some ivory tower subject. This is something that actually affects our every decision, and especially affects our public policy, which I know is kind of your specialty. How do you get that across to your students? Well, first of all, the interest is absolutely. Of course, there's an issue of perceptions that people have. I mean, when you think about something as fundamental and lived as an experience of issues in medical ethics, when you've got difficulties about deciding what to do about mom when she's gotten old, and you don't have clear instructions about what to do in this instance, deciding about those matters when there isn't clear law about such things, for instance, or clear guidelines, you've got to think together about what's best, and these are moral questions. These are things very much that happen in life, and yes, philosophy is central for everyday life, let alone public policy, because it's about the love of wisdom, and it's a study of how we can make sense of wisdom in the good life. And so to me, it's deeply practical, and yet, of course, some questions and ideas can sound very abstract, but of course, that's what thinking does. It abstracts from some particular interest to think of principles and tries to make sense of the world, but of course, the reason for that is practical and application. Eric, before we get into the specifics of your books, especially your more recent book, United Mississippi, I have to ask, we hear so often that students today just aren't quite as sharp as they used to be, and I guess we hear that from older people, and we read about the protest, or the safe rooms, and that we've got a lot of crybaby types on our campuses today. What is your experience with the student body at Ole Miss? Are they sharp kids? Are they well grounded? Tell me about your students. Sure. So the first thing to say, though, is that every generation that said all of these kids today, there's something about our present kids that's the problem. They've lost a sense of value. Every generation has said that sort of thing. But what I can say to you, though, is that I'm somewhat spoiled because the program in public policy leadership is a selective one. It's a very strong, high-performing set of students, and so half of them are in the Honors College, somewhere around half. And so I see some of the strongest, most engaged students in my program. I think that overall, however, though, the students are strong students of the university, and in my program, they're truly excellent students, actually, that I'd put up against some of the best students at any number of schools. But this notion of safe words and stuff or being careful about offending people, I think that's just sort of a continuation of the sensitivity and the sort of lawsuits, kind of the culture where if you upset people, there's a big noise. But at the same time, I think that hasn't changed so much. People used to get offended by so much less in past generations. Just think about the fact that at a certain point in time, it was unacceptable to air Elvis Presley below the waist when he was performing. And so now compare that with today, where we're talking about seeing the n-word, for instance, in a text. There's differences of degree and people were outraged about seeing Elvis' hips. And so if you take things into comparison with the past, we're not so different. In fact, we're more, I think, tolerant than we used to be. Eric, democracy comes up a lot in your articles. I know you're right for the Clarion Ledger and other publications and in your books. There are among those who listen and probably read BamSouth.com and other publications the notion that this country, this state, we should not properly be a democracy. We're a republic. And democracy is just another name for majority rule. How would you answer that? Well, so a republic is sort of a form of government. And literally what the word means, if you boil it down, comes from res publica. It's the public thing. And of course, the most influential source on that subject was Plato, who wrote the book The Republic. And yeah, we have some great history in the Roman Republic and then elsewhere and then forward. But when I think about forms of government, I don't necessarily think this is exactly of a democratic process of voting, of having everyone vote on every decision. That would be cumbersome and that wouldn't make sense. People need to specialize in various ways. And so instead we vote on representatives. And so when we're talking about Mississippi and we're talking about democracy, what are we talking about? We're really talking, it seems to be about culture and about what that republic is supposed to be doing. Is it supposed to be only representing the few, such as in an oligarchy, or should it be representing everybody? Should everybody's interests matter? And so it isn't that everybody needs to be coming out to vote about every decision. That's not what real democracy makes. That's not democracy that makes sense anyway. But it's about caring about the power of the people and all people, having some kind of degree of equality. But not that we are the same, but we should be treated the same about many things basically. And so we shouldn't have, for instance, hierarchies of citizenship, where these people are a certain kind of citizen that matter. And let's say those citizens aren't, and they don't get to vote, for instance. I mean, we do that with young people, but all young people, not just some groups, young people. So there's a kind of a quality that's crucial for democracy, even if we have to have people specialized and say running for office and representing us. And so democracy is a set of values, and frankly, it's a way of life. Is there an ideal democracy in your mind, or one that you envision, or one that we can expire to? Sure, absolutely. So democracy is very much an ideal. And actually, one of the great democratic thinkers, John Dewey, called it a radical ideal. To really be democratic would be quite different from how we live right now. But at the same time, we can be more or less democratic. And the less we are, in a lot of instances, it causes serious problems, right? We don't look out for the interests of certain people, and we trample on their rights and so forth. And that's what we find problematic. So rule of the majority is an element of democracy, but it's not just any which decision gets decided that way, because there's got to be rules of the game. And so you've got, for instance, to protect minority rights. Otherwise, you're not treating everyone equally. You can't just have some people have free speech. You need everybody to be able to have free speech, right? And so we need rights which limit what the majority can do. So the majority can't just decide that some people don't get to speak, right? And because we have to have those rules, those rules protect everyone's liberty, and thereby, unfortunately, for the majority, that limits what the majority can decide. And so democracy is a good bit, is more complicated than just having sort of what's most popular, you know, decided and picked for everybody. This is the Midlife Chris podcast on BamSouth.com. I'm your host, Jack Chris, and we're joined by Mr. Eric Thomas Webber, who's the Associate Professor of Public Policy Leadership at the University of Mississippi, Ole Miss. Now, Eric, the new book is Uniting Mississippi. It's a provocative title. I haven't had a chance to read your book, I'm sorry to say, but just based on the title, what do we need to unite? Aren't we already together? What's the problem here? How do we bring Mississippi together and why do we need to bring it together? Okay? Good question. And thanks for asking. So there are some things about which Mississippi is united. Now, today, when there are elections, anyone can come out to vote, and those people who feel strongly and want to speak up to do so, for instance, and those are some ways in which we all get to participate, we all get mail delivered to our houses and so forth, but then there are some important ways in which what I was saying about hierarchies of citizenship remain in the state of Mississippi, and so we are divided in some crucial ways. In 2007, for instance, I just have certain numbers that stand out because they were so striking. In 2007, there was a Johns Hopkins report put out by the Associated Press that found that Canton County School District in Mississippi was graduating less than 32% of the people who entered as freshmen. So it had a retention rate from freshman to senior year of about 30, 31%. And so that means nearly 70% of their students who entered as freshmen were not graduating from high school. And when you look at what the prospects are and the opportunities are for people who don't have a high school degree, they're dismal, they're troubling, right? You know, there's many jobs you can't get, your likely earnings are very low. And if you look at the number of people who are incarcerated who don't have a high school diploma, it's 80%. So we are channeling people into poverty and then to, you know, educational failure into incarceration eventually for many. And that's happening in a patterned way among poor persons who are especially African American and these historically black districts, they're getting significantly inferior education. And once they're incarcerated, of course, they can't vote anymore. And so they're disenfranchised in that way. And so the cycle continues, we have high teen pregnancy, and these things are consolidated, but these are things which affect a certain group of people, not just everyone, if it were just that sort of everyone had a certain process, that'd be one thing, but we do have patterns. And it isn't only having a pattern that matters, but the history of this. But then how does unity come into it then? I mean, and based on this. Unity is crucial, because if we don't care about people who aren't my kid, then these patterns persist. And so it's crucial that we care about each other's children, and that we do everything we can to make sure that all Mississippians have a chance to succeed, a real chance to succeed. Oh, go ahead. Go ahead. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Go ahead. No, so it's just, you know, if there are these kinds of strong patterns and there are, there were, I think, 44 school districts that were failing or at risk of failing at the time of that study that I was talking about, and things have gotten a little bit better. But it's really striking how delineated the differences are when you're talking about who has real opportunities at life and who doesn't. For instance, the likelihood of doing decently well and succeeding in college when you have an ACT score of 2021 or 22 is at a certain rate. It isn't too bad. But then if you're below that, it's not so good. And the average ACT score for white students in Mississippi is about a 21, and for African-American students is a 16, right? And so even when we do have students graduate from these poorer districts, let's say like Canton, let that 30% that does graduate and maybe takes the ACT, well, a significant number of those people are graduating and getting ACT scores lower than 16. And their likelihood, even if they do get into college, is low of succeeding unless they have a high GPA, which can change some things. But the point is that we have a difference between the life opportunities, a significant difference in life opportunities for people who are white and who are black and who are poor and who are wealthy in this state. And what changes that is having people care and really try. Let me stop you and ask you this. There's got to be a fine line, or where do you differentiate or draw the distinction between caring and legislation? Well, the first thing is you've got to care before you're going to have any legislation. So that's why I start there with this notion of unity, right? For Plato in the great city, he thought that he was so important for people to feel united for otherwise. When invaders come attack, you won't defend your neighbor and that person will perish and as a city you'll be weaker. Well, the analogy today is the same. If you have companies who come here and they want to build a business and they see that the workforce isn't trained, they're not going to stay. And so we lose out in some other way today. Whereas if we had a good education and strong support such that everyone really had a chance everywhere, we'd have a higher educated workforce. We'd have more companies coming here to invest and build businesses and we'd all do better as a result. And so caring is a first step. And then the next step, okay, now that we do care, here's what it'll take to make certain kinds of differences. Well, I think one thing also that libertarians and more progressive liberals can agree on also is the criminalization, for example, of drug laws. You mentioned the high incarceration rate and that is certainly a fact. That's one thing we could agree on. So I see some patterns here. In the time remaining, Eric, here on Midlife Chris, let me ask you about the primary message that you want readers to take away from Uniting Mississippi. And what do you see as our biggest problem? I mean, you touched on some things, but is it the flag? Is it the fact that 42 was defeated? Answer those two questions for me, if you will. I probably believe they're related. So. Right. When you look at all the challenges and problems we face as a state, there's a lot of particulars, whether it's seen pregnancy, hyperincarceration, problems in terms of succeeding in education for everybody. All of those are particular issues that are deeply important. At bottom, however, they all are rooted in a culture in which certain people are advantaged and have the life that they want. And so they're not concerned about the system otherwise. And other people really struggle. They don't feel that they can be heard. They don't feel unified all together. And therefore, they don't get the same kind of chance. They don't get the same kinds of schools. And therefore, it seems to me you've got to work on the culture in order to get people to sort of see that we're all in the same boat. And once you have everybody in the same boat, you will do certain things differently as far as education, as far as education funding, the flag is a symbol. And I think any individual realizes that changing the flag hasn't just changed everybody's life, but it's a symbol of something, which is the underlying culture. And it is fundamentally a symbol of division, whatever else you think of it. It is undoubtedly a symbol of division. And so it seems to me clear that what Mississippi needs is a more united culture such that we will then be ready to attack all the particular issues that I've just been talking about, about sex education, about hyperincarceration, about meeting education funding and so forth. When we feel that it's important, when we all realize how important it is to unite as a state, as a group of people who will do better together, that's when I think any of these particular, and I deal in the book with many of the particulars, all of these different particulars can be looked at and addressed and we can say, oh, okay, here's a better way to do this. So that not just these kids do well, but everybody can. Eric, you sound just like a damn bleeding heart liberal. Okay, how is that? That's interesting because in general, liberalism is thought to be an isolationist, atomistic kind of point of view where I'm just thinking about the individual making an agreement with another individual so that we don't trample on each other's rights and that's the sort of social contract liberalism that's focused on the individual. But what I'm talking about is the culture, which is much more communitarian in that sense. I care about liberty. In that sense, I'm the big picture liberal, I suppose, but everybody cares about liberty. What I'm seeing is how important the culture is for us to care about each other. So that could be perfectly consistent with the kind of conservatism that isn't necessarily liberal in that sense. No, I agree. I agree. And I was being a little bit facetious. I realize that the thing about Midlife Chris is this is not the Bill O'Reilly show. Okay, we want to hear your views. I don't think people want to hear mine right now, but look, Eric, I know you're touring behind the book Uniting Mississippi. Tell us where people can get a copy. Where can they see you meet you and talk to you about this very fascinating and interesting thesis? Well, excellent. Thanks. So the book is available at local bookstores around Mississippi. It's online. You can get it from local bookstores. If you want to shop local, places like Square Book's website or the various small bookstores websites, it's also at the enormous websites for books that I won't mention by name. You can get it online. You can get it at local bookstores around Mississippi and in surrounding states. But I'll also be giving a number of talks, one on the 29th of this month in Hattiesburg, Mississippi, and then I'm giving a brown bag talk at the university here in Oxford. So you drink, brown bag, you drink when you give the lecture? Well, I'm not going to ask you what's in your brown bag, but I'll probably just have a sandwich. See, Eric, now you sound like a damn capitalist promoting your book. That's a good thing. But when are you going to be doing the luncheon at Ole Miss? Oh, that one's going to be on February 3rd. I believe it's a Wednesday. All right. Well, look, tell us. We got to ask this very important question. Were you at the sugar bowl? I was not at the sugar bowl except in spirit watching it on my couch. And it was amazing. Okay. And finally, Eric Thomas. Oh, and one last thing about football. If your quarterback doesn't feel united with the receiver, you're not going to make a pass. Unity matters, man, and we can do this. And I think we have lots of cultural resources to draw on to show how we agree and where we agree and why we think that we should feel united together. Eric Thomas Webber has been our guest on the Midlife, Chris podcast. All right, Eric, I got to hit you with a few questions so people can really learn the real Eric Thomas Webber. So first of all, if you could live anywhere on earth, where would you live? Oh, goodness. That's a great question. I tell you, I absolutely love southern France. It's so beautiful. And I have some family from there and it's gorgeous. All right. What is the worst pop song ever recorded? Oh, goodness. Probably one from Millie Vanilly, though. I can't remember the names. Well, there goes your Christmas gift for next year. What does Eric Thomas Webber read in his spare time? And something that would surprise people. We know you read Aristotle and Plato, but what would you read that might surprise people? Well, recently, Ken Follett, I was really blown away by pillars of the earth. A lot of people already knew that, but I hadn't read it yet and it was amazing. And since you made the football connection with Unity, and I got to tell you that was pretty good tying it in with your book, who's going to win the Super Bowl this year? I have absolutely no idea. Now you've got to give an answer, Eric. Those are the rules. Oh, goodness. Well, if I knew anything, I would tell you something intelligent. I used to be a fan of the New York Giants until in my ignorance, that's what I'm going to say, but I have no idea. Well, they're out of the playoffs, so you missed that. But look, we will be talking to you again soon. I'm sure it's Eric Thomas Webber. He's a professor at Ole Miss. His latest book is called Uniting Mississippi, and it's a fascinating read. And I don't care if you're a conservative libertarian, you need to read what other people think. And I do, and I enjoy Eric's books. And Eric, we've enjoyed you being on the Midlife Chris podcast. Thanks so much. Thanks so much for having me. Okay, Eric Thomas Webber, again, our guest. I'm Jack Chris. You've been listening to the Midlife Chris podcast, only on BamSouth.com. Thank you so much for your support. This is the Midlife Chris podcast brought to you by BamSouth.com. I'm your host, Jack Chris. Happy 2016. Happy New Year. Want to tell you about one of our underwriters and sponsors here at the Midlife Chris show. It's Deerfield Golf Club in Canton. Look, Deerfield Golf Club is a wonderful, wonderful place to play. Write the number down. 601-856-6966. We're talking about one of only seven golf courses designed by Byron Nelson, who's, of course, a world golf hall of famer. And it was once ranked as high as number two in the state of Mississippi, the Deerfield Golf Club. Deerfield is an unbelievable course with plush fairways and fast greens sure to test even the best of players. And let me tell you about a deal right now. If you're listening to the Midlife Chris show, you can join Deerfield, pay your first month's dues with no joining fee and no further dues until March of this year. If you're under 35, 199 a month membership. And if you're over 35, only $250 a month. Folks, you can't beat that because in other courses, you're going to pay, you know, for your golf carts, you're going to pay for food and beverage minimums at many of the country clubs around town. You can spend upwards of $300 a month easy. Don't hassle with all that at Deerfield Golf Club. Write the number down, 601-856-6966. Tell the folks at Deerfield Golf Club, Lee and everyone that you heard about it on the Midlife Chris podcast and get your discount. It's Deerfield, truly the best golf course for the money in central Mississippi in the entire state. In fact, if you come out as a guest, play around for $20. If you don't like it, we'll give you your $20 bag. John Rings, you can't beat that, can you? That's a great deal, Jack. Obviously, from being around the golf industry my entire life, that's a great deal. People are wondering who I'm talking to. We've got John Rings in the studio. Now, folks who keep up with Bamsouth.com know that John Rings has a weekly segment called Ring Inspiration. That segment is for our listeners, viewers and readers to get a bit of your inspiration, John, because you've become known as someone in the central Mississippi area who promotes good things, positive things. Welcome to the show. Thank you, Jack. I appreciate it. John, first of all, tell us a little bit about yourself. I know some people probably see Ring Inspiration and say, well, who is this guy? Is he a motivational speaker? Is he a lecturer? Does he own several businesses around town? Who is John Rings? What do you do? Jack, I am just a common man like you and I. I've got a wife and two kids. Got a mortgage and all that. I've got a house and cars and all that. I've got to pay for them. One thing that I was thinking about over this past week, going into the new year, which I used to refresh and review and think about goals for the upcoming year, was getting more into public speaking, sharing more of my views on what I feel needs to be heard and said in our community. What does need to be heard and said in our community? First of all, and then let me ask you, what qualifies you, John? I mean, you know, their motivational speakers are Zig Ziglar and Tony Robbins and people like that. But some people might be skeptical and say, who's this guy? He's just an average Joe. Why should I listen to him? Well, Jack, I've been around for a while. I've been in the banking industry for many years and have been involved in different businesses. And I feel like that I've basically developed a following through Facebook, through LinkedIn, people that really listen and care to what I say. They value and trust the information that I provide. So social media? Yes. Now, do you come up with original content or do you share content that you find? And if so, where do you find these inspirational messages and how do you decide what to put out there and what to discard? Jack, what I really try to do is share positive information. Zig Ziglar, Billy Cox, or two of my favorite inspirational leaders that have shared their information on Facebook. I try to look for information that will help a man or woman with their day. They may be having a bad day. They may be looking for some kind of hope in that day. And I just try to share good information that's factual that can maybe put a smile on somebody's face and really just try to share not anything political or anything that's negative, but try to share more inspirational, uplifting type material. Yeah, but John, do you think that's not being polyanna-ish? Do you think that's not being a little bit too pie in the sky? I mean, should you temper it with a little negative news every now and then? Well, you know, and I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think you do need to mix it up some. And some of my posts are, you know, the factual, realistic viewpoint of what's going on in our society. I do try to be real as it retains that there are some posts that may not be as positive as others. And but it's all good information that will inform people of what's going on in our society today. Well, let's back up, John. What made you, I mean, you said you got a following and you do. I mean, I keep up with you on Facebook a little bit less on LinkedIn, but you do. You're known for putting out positive messages. When did you first start doing this? Was it something in your personal life? Did you decide, well, I'm going to, you know, this spoke to me. Maybe I'm going to share it and it'll speak to other people. Tell us about the beginnings of this. Sure. Jack, about two or three years ago, I was out running one day, which is one of my big hobbies. And I just started brainstorming and thinking, okay, what can I do to basically get the word out or basically use the talents and skills that I that I possessed to, to help other people? And I was not really big into social media up until about three years ago and really got into it and said, wow, you know, I started seeing the difference that it was making people were starting to respond starting to comment. And people were starting to share the things that I was sharing. And, you know, they always say attitudes are contagious. A positive attitude is very contagious. And that's what that's what I've tried to do. Do you think that can you have too much of a good thing though? I mean, can you and I say this because I know some people who I keep up with them on Facebook too. It seems like they they almost are trying to convince themselves that things are going to be better. And you know, as well as I do, words are one thing, but you got to put the words into action. Right. All right, you got to do that. And I know you understand that. But have you ever heard from people or or do you sometimes feel like, well, maybe this is just too much too much verbiage and not enough nitty gritty? Well, a lot of times, I believe that, you know, you can have so much information. But you know, you you got to have action to a plan in order for a plan to become real. And to be put into motion, you've got to have an action. And one of my resolutions this year is to act on some of my, you know, inspirations that I've felt for a few years. Do you do it for yourself primarily? Jack, you know, unselfishly, you know, public speaking is something that I've really had a passion for for many years. I've just never acted on it on education, of course, is near and dear to my heart. I really want to continue this year going into schools and sharing information with kids on financial literacy, money management, things that will help them in their future. I think there's a big need for that. I just this is going to be the be the year of action. John rings is our guest here on the Midlife Chris show. Of course, you can see John every week on the ringspiration video cast that we put on bam south.com. And we wanted to talk to him today to kind of go a little bit more in depth and find out more about him and what makes him so positive. Now, is it all a state of mind, John? I mean, is it a matter of if you wake up and you're in a bad mood? The day's going to turn out bad. And conversely, if you wake up and you say, All right, there are going to be challenges. But if I've got the right attitude, I can get through them. Is it that psychological easy? Hey, look, man, a lot of people are spending tons of money on therapist on tranquilizers. A lot of people are drinking. A lot of people even use running as an escape means, you know that it's healthy to run. That's what I've done it for four years. But I mean, some people carry it to an extreme, man. I mean, you know, and you can do anything to an extreme. But is it all does it boil down to attitude? Jack, I really think it boils down to your values and life. I believe, you know, I was blessed to have two parents that instilled good values and good skills in myself that built me up when I was growing up that to this day, or a major rock to my well being. Yeah. I talked to them a lot during the week. And I feel like that they helped mold me in a way that when I go out or I wake up every day, every day is not going to be a perfect or the best day of my life. But I try to find things that I can take away to be positive, to look at it and say, you know what, everyone has problems and issues in their life that they're having to deal with. That's life. We have to deal with it. But if we rely on the important things in our life, you know, obviously having God and family and friends and health, health is a big health is a big thing that a lot of people don't think about. That's very important. Without health, you can't do a lot of things. But I get up and I'm very thankful to be able to do what I do every day. And that's to go out and share good news and reach out to those that need it. Let's talk about that, John, because you have and you and I've covered this in ringspiration in the past, you are speaking to schools to young people. I got to I got to wonder what kind of audience, what kind of reception you get. Do they look at you and say all this old guy, you know, hey, when I was young, I thought I was going to live forever. Okay, the future was mine. Right. I didn't care. I didn't want to hear all this, you know, flowery stuff. I didn't want to hear about money or this and that. You know, the world was going to be mine. Wish I'd listened to it now at 50. But what kind of reception are you getting from these young people? And how did you start speaking to these schools? Tell us about that. Well, Jack, to be honest, when my son started seventh grade this past year, I talked to Ms. McQuarter, his ICT2 teacher, and asked if I could come out and speak to her class or some of the classes about their money management financial literacy segment. And I was kind of to be honest, didn't really know how that was going to go over. I mean, I bet, you know, seventh grade is entering into the teenage years to where, you know, you really don't know how much they're going to listen to or if they're going to listen to you at all. Yeah. But what I found to help bridge the gap was getting down to their level, giving them real life examples of things that had actually happened, getting them involved, making it more of an interactive type discussion to where they felt like they were participating, not me just up there preaching and, you know, lecturing to them. I made it to where I asked a lot of good questions. And they in turn asked me a lot of good questions. I had to really dig deep in my responses. I almost felt like I needed an attorney or an accountant there with me. We've got some here, by the way, in the building here at Gill Ladder and Priest. So do you, so you came away having learned something from them, too? You know, Jack, I really felt like it instilled, you know, you know, God's timing is always perfect. And I felt like that I was there. And I really felt like I was able to really dig in and the connection just, I mean, it just, it went a lot better than I ever anticipated. And are you going to start doing this more often on a regular basis, speaking to school groups and other groups as well? Yes. I feel like through my experience and lessons that I've learned, through my successes, through my failures, that, you know, I have enough information and insight to provide these kids that they need. We all need information. You know, a lot of people, you know, for what it's worth, don't know all the inner workings of banking. I feel like I learned something new every day. But, you know, something as simple as writing a check or balancing a check ledger or knowing how to keep up with how much money you have, how to balance all of that. They need to learn it. You're going to teach them. You know, I enjoy it. John Rings here. He is the man behind Ringspiration on BamSouth.com. He's our guest on this segment of the Midlife Chris podcast. I'm Jack Chris. You know, John, when I want to get inspired, I turn to If by Rudyard Kipling, one of my favorite poems, the song My Way by Frank Sinatra, Just One Victory, Todd Rungren, others. Is there a favorite quote or poem or song that when you hear, every time you hear it, you get picked up? You get inspired. John Rings gets inspired. Jack, I don't know if there's one particular song or saying. I like to read a lot. I do, you know, like to read a lot of inspirational materials. Zig Ziglar put out some John Maxwell has put out some good leadership and teamwork books through the years. I don't know if there's one particular quote or song that really gets me going. I guess I just try to mix it up and use a variety or combination of different quotes and sayings that I picked up through the years. What we're going to do, John, see, we're going to set you up to go on a speaking circuit and write some books. I want to be your manager and I want to make a fortune off of you. I left him speechless, Rob. That sounds like a great idea. That's the whole point. See, we're going to put you on the road, man. Get you on all the TV talk shows and everything and you're going to become the new motivational speaker from Jackson, Mississippi. How about that? Hey, that sounds like a great idea. You said something to me before we went on the air and this would be a nice way to close out the segment. What's the story about the guy giving out the pizza to the homeless person? I think you posted it on Facebook. Give me the story. Is this something John Rings might do? Well, Jackie, it's real simple. The post started out. The guy went by and asked a gentleman if he could have a piece of pizza. He went by the particular gentleman three different times and the guy refused to give him pizza. He in turn went and bought a pizza and gave the entire pizza to a homeless man. He came back and he sat down with the homeless man and he said, look, I'm really hungry. Can I have a piece of that pizza? And the homeless man said, absolutely. He in turn sat there and shared with the other gentleman and the gentleman that bought the pizza in turn gave the homeless man some money. And regardless of what we're going through every day, we've got to have a caring and a giving heart. I think it's very imperative that we have a giving heart. I try to give every day and share where I can to those that need it. And it just, it reiterates a valuable lesson that we all need to know is that we've all got to be considerate, compassionate, sympathetic to all of our fellow man or woman. And it's called pay it forward, but I can speak from personal experience. You do. You call people. You call me. You check on me. You know, I've had some issues with my mother and her illness lately. You've checked on me. Rob over here has checked on me. It's good to have friends like that. It's good, John. That's a positive message. Right. And goodness knows we need it now. Right. There's so much negativity in the world. And as you said, so many of us are going through troubles. We're masking it whatever reason or however we do so. And yet you're spreading those positive messages through ringspiration. And we appreciate it, brother. All right, before I let you go, a couple of things. First of all, are you doing the blues marathon? I don't know if it's going to the show is going to come on after the marathon, but are you running it? I'm signed up for the quarter this year. Not I've done the marathon, half marathon several times. I've done the relay. I'm going to do the quarter this year. Man, that's our cakewalk for a guy like you. That's nothing. All right. Now, here are the tough questions we ask every guest. We're going to hit you with some questions to find out more about our guest. We want to know more about the real John rings. What is your favorite food in the world, John? Wow. Well, I would have to say food that I eat a lot. Probably chicken. Fried or baked. Probably fried. And the guy runs, eats fried chicken, unbelievable. You know, and the reason being, I've got a little girl who loves Chick-fil-A, and we eat there several times a week. And it just has become one of my favorite things that I like to eat. I'm in Chick-fil-A, Madison this weekend with my daughter. And the guy looks at me, I guess he was the manager, he says, Hey, Jack, how you doing? Good to see you. I don't know who it was. Anyway, it made me feel kind of popular. All right, your first car, John. First car. My parents bought me a Buick Sentry. There you go. Not a bad car. What model was it? It was a very, very good car. What model? I'm not sure what the model was, but at the time, I just know I was very blessed to have a car. What's the best movie ever made? Best movie ever made. My favorite movie, my favorite movie is Caddyshack. That's my favorite movie. But I would say, How about a Fresco? The probably the inspirational movie that I learned the most from probably Shawshank Redemption. That's a great film. There are a lot of lines, a lot of information that that teaches a valuable lesson. And if John Rings could live anywhere in the world, where would you live? Wow, anywhere in the world. Honestly, I love the city of Madison. I love where I live right now. But if I had to pick a destination, I'd probably want to go out, go off to some deserted island out in the Caribbean. Sounds good, John. John, I probably take you with me, Jack. I probably take both of y'all. We could just go off and just live happily ever after. Man, I'm a city boy. I mean, to me camping out is having room service. I wouldn't make it long. I wouldn't survive. John Rings has been our guest. It's Ringspiration. You'll be back next week with a new Ringspiration on famsouth.com. Happy New Year, man. Happy New Year to you. Good to have you on the Midlife Chris podcast. I'm Jack Chris. Folks, stay with us. We'll be back. Hey, Jack Chris here, Midlife Chris. I want to take a few minutes to tell you about one of our sponsors and underwriters here at the Midlife Chris Show, and that's the law firm of Gill, Ladner, and Priest in Ridgeline, Mississippi. Write this number down, 601-352-5700. Gill, Ladner, and Priest truly cares about helping people, and I know all these gentlemen. I can tell you that's true. It's a fact. That's why Gill, Ladner, and Priest provides free initial consultation on any legal matter. If Gill, Ladner, and Priest is not the right fit for your legal matter, they will do all they can to help you find the right attorney, and there's no commitment or further obligation required. Gill, Ladner, and Priest has had the privilege to help individuals from children to senior citizens, churches, small business owners, and larger businesses as well. 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At Gill, Ladner, and Priest, they get to know each client on a personal level, so that every resolution is fair and reasonable under the circumstances. It's Bobby Gill, Kirk Ladner, and Jamie Priest, 601-352-5700. If you need to get legal power for yourself, your business, or a loved one, go to www.getlegalpower.com, or again call 601-352-5700 for your free initial consultation with Gill, Ladner, and Priest attorneys in Ridgeland. Again, that's Gill, Ladner, and Priest, 601-352-5700, sponsors of The Midlife Chris Show. The Midlife Chris Show is produced by Rainmaker Business Services and President Robert C. Dillard. For more information, that's www.rainmakerit.com, or email rainmakerit at gmail.com. Again, Midlife Chris, sponsored and produced by Rainmaker Business Services and Rob Dillard.