 Okay, we're back. We're live. It must be what Tuesday morning. I'm Jay Fidel and this is community matters And we're talking with Chad Blair of civil beat Chad is a dad is a name in news and we really enjoy having him on the program. Hi Chad Hi, Jay. Where are you? That's quite a backdrop you have Well, this is our newsroom here at think tech chat, and I know that's your newsroom over there at civil beat I Could turn the camera around but I'm sure I'd screw something up But I am actually at my at my desk at civil beat. I am the only one in the office right now We have the entire crew has been operating Social distancing like everybody else on occasion. You will see someone come in We have folks that do podcasts and so they need to use some of the equipment that we have here But that's it. I think also we have people come in to do payroll once a week. So that's a good thing It's that's how you this. Yeah, and this day and age. It's really great to Be receiving a paycheck for the work that we're doing. These are very scary times Well, I mean I say so be doing a great job in a crisis And it's really to your credit to the civil beats credit to the credit of the media They're you know the committed media that that sees this as an important part of their mission Stepping up to the crisis. I think I appreciate that and I know the public appreciates that And it's great to have you on the show to talk about it So this is this is sort of in response to an article which was in the New York New Yorker magazine Let's see it was called the fate of the media after the corona in and after the corona crisis and The media although it's stepping up and although some some media more popular now Perhaps because of the crisis and all the news that we have and need to have about the crisis The concern in this article is what is going to happen? You know as we as we as we attend to the crisis and as the crisis subsides And I think it's worth talking about that because going into the crisis. We had a war on the press We had a lot of newspapers on half the print newspapers in the country You know have failed over the past four or five years Journalists are out of work. There's a fewer left now than ever And so, you know, we need to look down the road and see what models work This is the subject of our of our symposium back in September at which you appear And what models work what models work in the future and how it's going to be and the problem is that you know The only way you can do responsible news is if you have enough money to pay the journalists And you have to find a model to do that So, um, can you talk about for example the model that civil beat adopted a few years ago moving for from a profit model A subscription model as I recall to a nonprofit. That was actually a good a good move It was I'm the only original Reporter still on the staff. I guess I can't find a job elsewhere But uh, we started back in 2010 as a for-profit We've had a paywall and at that time it was around the same time that the Honolulu Star Bulletin and the Honolulu advertiser became one paper, right the star advertiser and sure enough They put up a paywall But somewhere along the way the decision was made To switch to the nonprofit model It is a model that a number of organizations media organizations on the mainland are pursuing With some success and it has It really has been remarkable. I would say that it has saved civil beat and made it grow We are actually prospering The staff the reach is larger than it was far larger than when we started and it is one model To pursue as a possible way to save journalism in the 21st century I believe within the last month or so that's about how long we've been in this pandemic really I think about 28,000 journalists have lost their jobs The last figure that I saw come out. I don't know if it was the columbia journalism review or which report but Tens of thousands just like so many millions of people that are out of work Here in hawaii and across the nation. So we're very grateful and the pandemic for now At least has been a real opportunity for the nation to see how important Frankly how essential the media is in these very serious times Yeah, you know, I remember you and I worked for Michael Titterton at Hawaii Public Radio. It's 10 years ago already and One of the interesting things that he told me one time. I asked him. I said, why don't you just get some big Donors or big advertisers with big bucks and have them support Hawaii Public Radio What why you have these fun drives? We you know, we get small amounts of money from lots of people He says well, you realize that they're more than just contributors They're invested There is a statement of relationship They like us. We like them. We have a love fest going on with every one of them And it means they listen it means they carry, you know, they carry the word for us They advocate for us in the community and they encourage other people to listen and so forth And that's what we need is what's not just one big donor or one big advertiser It sold a little guys and I think that when you go as you did in civil beat You know to a non-profit model a lot of people who? Invested their heart and soul who do and are investing their heart and soul into the organization. They become part of your family That's better than an advertiser, isn't it? Oh, I think so. I think family is the right word for it I think ownership is another word to use as well It really becomes in our case their online news source HPR by the way is a media partner I'm on regularly on the conversation and sometimes other reporters and editors aren't as well and we are both non-profit We don't run if you will Advertising per se we don't have underwriters per se We certainly have important organizations and a lot of individuals backing us But I think that they feel like it's how do I say it? Civil beat is theirs. They feel that It's personal and that includes direct contact with the reporters with the editors that requires us to To reach out into the community not just be this faceless Nameless entity that you never speak with but to have a real interaction And of course that that that word in civil beat civil right that was something Pair of Midyar and Randy Ching have been sifted on from the beginning that we keep it civil or as Michael Titter to and say civil civil beat, right? Well, let's let's talk about the New York Times You know the article in the New Yorker was really instructive talk about a whole bunch of their directors They were editorial board sat down in like 2009. I think it wasn't they decided they're gonna have a paywall And it was a hard decision as controversial decision within the organization everybody agreed And they did have a payroll and a paywall and it was successful and it is successful today But the problem is that most people out there in the community They don't want to pay for news. There's so many other ways to get news and those and those ways are changing Kaleidoscopically, I mean for example There have been what Buzzfeed and Huffpost they're on the decline They have shrunk their business shrunk their journalism staff shrunk their reach. I guess We thought they were, you know, gonna be the successor. They were gonna be, you know, the most popular In that category that that size and scope But unfortunately it sounds like they have issues So the New York Times emerges as perhaps the most at least for my for my money And I do pay them for my money the most important news source The original news source, right? Everybody quotes them and they have 1,700 journalists. They've never had so many and they have five million subscribers according to the New Yorker They've never had so many and so I think we have to look at the model the paywall model of the New York Times And the Washington Post and the Wall Street Journal, too I think there are a couple others To see whether those are gonna survive the coronavirus and be the healthiest model Or is it gonna be the nonprofit or is it gonna be a combination? What do you think? You know, I don't know which one's gonna win out Remember that with the New York Times it's owned by the Salisbury family So it's it's one family with the the Washington Post Which I think is also equally with the New York Times really doing terrific in terms of reporting and staying alive It's owned by Jeff Bezos the the owner of Amazon and then remember the Wall Street Journal Which I think also is doing a heck of a lot of good work And it's owned by Rupert Murdoch So you've really got wealthy people and it's no secret that Civil Beats founder publisher is Piero Midiar Of eBay and who lives here and loves Hawaii, but that is one model. Did you need somehow a wealthy benefactor? I think what we're really finding out is that people are dying for news literally dying They're hungry for news and when Civil Beat came along particularly when you saw the two daily newspapers become one There was really a there was another source to go to does it frustrate me that a lot of people think oh, it's free I could just read it anytime I want sure it does. It's embarrassing. I'm working for a living I really need your help, but we're seeing all sorts of donors come our way from a wide variety of backgrounds And it's heartening since this crisis has really started in the last month or so I can't tell you how many Thank you as I've gotten emails not just me other staff. Thank you for being there You know, we went from five days a week to seven days a week because of the corona virus we are publishing fresh content every single day and We realize simply that this is what we have to do and none of the staff are taking vacation time Well, we're trying to stagger things as best as possible, but this model is working as well We're not going to be the New York Times or the Washington Post The Wall Street Journal, but maybe the Texas Tribune or other models elsewhere and it is working for us We are as strong as we've ever been Yeah, it's true. And you know, I don't know why I'm reminded of the old dichotomy again Are you going to cover stuff that the public wants to know about or you're going to cover stuff that the public should know about? You know, it's the old the TV network issue. I mean, should I talk about sports and crime and an automobile accidents and weather or should I talk about what's really going on? You know and a lot of a lot of the the network news Will say no, we only cover what they want if they don't want it when I'm going to cover But I think so it'll be is different and certainly think tank is different We want to cover the things that we think they need to know We want to take them to another level not just flatten it out But you know one thing it strikes me what you said is the star advertiser that reported yesterday They were not going to be publishing a print edition on Saturdays anymore This is a this is more than one small isolated event. Don't you think you can you draw a trend out of that? It's a very serious matter. Let me just first begin by saying I have some very good friends Who work at the star advertiser? There's a lot of good folks over there producing very important stories But in addition to canceling Come may the Print edition for saturday. By the way, it'll still be online. They'll still be producing a full issue On saturdays. You're just not going to see it in print anymore But remember they've had to make some hard decisions. There have been furloughs There are people that are working You know five days a week and getting paid for four days a week There are people that I believe are no longer working there And they've had to make some content cuts. There are no more Sports, there's a very small sports section, but I mean sports isn't happening, right? Teams aren't playing and that includes high school sports. You haven't had entertainment. They've had to make a very Difficult decision and if you physically pick up the star advertiser and believe me I subscribe I get it every morning at my front door at home It's getting thinner and thinner But I go to the star advertiser first thing in the morning because I want to see what's happening locally And I consider a compliment to the work that we're doing at civil beat some of it overlaps a lot of it particularly now with coronavirus, but the trend line Is worrisome and uh the longer this goes on We all know what's happening in newspapers nationwide. We saw what happened with two daily newspapers here And I think that trend is uh continuing and is not going to ease up Yeah, and uh, we we're you know with with less Um less media members. There's less news And then you're always subject to the risk as as on the mainland where all these newspapers are consolidating And there's one editorial policy controlled by somebody and if that person is uh, as I would say a right-wing agenda Then you have you know, sometimes hundreds radio stations, you know a and radio stations and small newspapers that are speaking the same language and advocating for positions Because the notion of fact and opinion is a little blurred these days on those on those media But you know, I want to I want to go to one thing and uh sort of integrate The coronavirus phenomenon, which is certainly drawing our attention because we realize We realize in our listeners and viewers realize that we are in a transformation Everything every institution everything right down to shaking the other guy's hand Is you know is in transformation now and when we come out the other end of the tunnel It'll be different And I think that's one of the reasons that people are so fascinated because they know that things are changing dramatically And our lives are all going to be different But the other thing is trump You know trump was um, you know a great interest to the media all around the country on one side of the question or the other And I think that sold a lot of papers. It was very interesting. He's uh, he's an entertainer And um, and I think that kept a lot of papers going to cover him one side of the other Um, and then of course his machinations in in the coronavirus crisis Uh, hiding that so now his machinations plus coronavirus. It's irresistible Okay, so hopefully in november We'll have a new president a more moderate president An ordinary an ordinary person kind of president an ordinary leader kind of president Okay, and so you don't have that kind of raw meat thing going on every day Where the press finds all this stuff on trump and they reported it and it's it's tonic in a way You know to bring him back to honesty, but but when we don't have that we don't have the scandals And the you know bizarre events from him and hopefully soon we're finished with coronavirus We're back to normal with the vaccine. God this should be humming soon What's going to happen to the press then there won't be as much Of what trump has created in terms of you know public interest in the news or in the disinformation as the case may be I'll admit as a news consumer who reads The wall street journal and the new york times and the new yorker and the star advertiser and a whole lot of other Uh publications as well as consuming online material and and and tv and whatever that it might be There's been nothing like the trump show in the history of this nation and I'll be honest with you. I'll pick up The newspaper or go to a an online clip and my eyes my attention goes to what trump did or said I think there's a famous new yorker cartoon in which An airplane is getting ready to land and the pilot comes on the the intercom and says You're it's safe to turn on your mobile devices and see what he had to say now So this is out of that You cannot turn your your eyes and ears away from it. He is a fascinating I say this a politically. He's a fascinating figure. He is an entertainer He's also the president of the most powerful country in the world and One wonders whether something is starting to shift The poll numbers are starting to indicate that maybe maybe we're getting tired of the trump show I do believe however and you and I were talking earlier that his core supporters And it's about 40 percent of the nation 35 40 sometimes 42 We'll never turn from him. We'll never leave him and that's the base that trump is playing for And unless the democratic party can run a successful campaign Uh, I'll say this about donald trump. He's a hell of a A polly a political figure. I mean he he knows how to dominate the news and I think that's something that should not be underestimated come november Yeah, but you know, there are things happening now Pair our discussion earlier about how trump is changing. He's he's being more rambunctious all the time I take advantage all the time more disinformation confusion Uh more controversy all the time firing more people all the time Um, and I wonder if I if I'm a trump or a fox news person And I'm you know dedicated to supporting him dedicated to the belief Which is widely held among some circles that he's the greatest president the country has ever seen and quote no hyperbole there um, so, you know That seems to be increasing and his outrageous unconstitutional Unconstitutional actions, which nobody seems to stop There's there's no nobody in the room who's going to stop him from saying I am all powerful I am the state I have all the authority I ever want to have these are remarkable statements And you don't need a high school education to appreciate how far off of course that is So if anybody is connecting the dots are going to see that this is getting worse And my question to you is don't you you know, you have a I know you have a phd in political science chat. I know that So isn't this ultimately going to lose him at least some fringe people in the base when he goes off Off the side that way It's actually american studies the phd, but but it was about politics. I Focus exclusively on uh, hawaii history and politics, but it's kind of like political science My friend calling more might take offense that I would be called a political scientist Is it gonna lose in fans? Is it gonna lose in fans? You know right now, uh today, I believe we surpassed 25 thousand deaths in the united states a really Difficult figure to try and comprehend But remember that the forecast uh from the trump administration from health officials like falchi has been You know 100,000 maybe as much as a quarter of a million Now we're starting to think maybe the curve is being flattened If may comes around and we go 14 days two weeks without a new case and we see Those numbers dropping not in new york yet, but even in new york. Andrew Cuomo saying We think we're getting around the corner There will be people That will say trump did the right thing he acted right If it's true whether it's true or not. That's another matter, but Those that like him and there are many He may be able to to write that into a second term in the white house that he's the one who led us Through the corona virus on the other hand If things do not get better if the unemployment numbers The budget situation continues to the stock market That too will be uh stick to him and a could very well defeat him and as you know traditionally It's the economy more than anything Uh people point to when they decide to re-elect a president whether it's that president's fault or not In this case, it's probably the corona viruses fault, but he's the guy at the helm And he's the guy they're going to hold responsible. So I think it I'll be honest with you I think it could go either way as of today I would give the democrats the edge. Joe biden now has obama's endorsement It looks like the party is coming together, but when he sanders is on board Uh, but joe biden is not the most electrifying candidate in the world. He's got a whole lot of baggage himself Will his choice of a Woman for a vice president. Could that could that help him? I think so. I think a woman of color might help as well And several women of color are are in the top running I do think biden will decide just as obama did who could best run the government who could step in For me should something happen to me and uh, there are about 10 uh Women in america most of them in elected office That I we hear the names being bandaged about camilla harris and uh and so forth, but um, I think that will be electrifying Well, we'll then trump fire mike pence and ask, uh nicky hailey I don't know I think uh, I think uh Well, I think he's already said he's gonna pick a woman and I think he's gonna stick to that and I think that will be electrifying For all those who mourned hillary clinton's loss four years ago. I think that will help a little bit too What about the notion of having a you know a democratic national Convention, I mean that's really hampered. What what effect is that politically and And you know procedurally how are we gonna how is he gonna do that? Uh, or is he gonna lose lose ground because there there's no precedent for this There is no president. How do you put you know 20 000 people into zoom? I've gone to a convention. I went to the la convention for al gore back in 2000 and it's You know, it's just an enormous event We do know that the democrats have postponed for one month the milwaki A dnc. It was set for mid july. It's now mid august. You've heard biden and others say maybe we're gonna need to to Have some sort of remote gathering, but I'll also tell you this it's it's really just a coronation Uh as much as party members and I'm gonna get people angry in the democratic party I'm sure they are picking a platform and and so forth, but this is biden show This is a done deal He didn't know what else is in the race. I don't think you really need to to to meet in in mas for four days in milwaki It could still happen if this thing abates if the virus Clares up and that's still four or five months away. You know, you can still hold convention. Remember the republicans I have their convention planned as well. I think about the same time or that same month But um, I think these are extraordinary times and as you mentioned earlier Everyone's having to change the way they do business and that's what's going to happen with both the dnc and the rnc What about Cuomo you write him off? I think Cuomo is being honest when he says he's not gonna run speaking in the new york time There was a nice piece the other day on how close Joe biden and andrew Cuomo are A real relationship Cuomo is only 66 biden is in his late 70s. I think Cuomo Has really returned his his national reputation around Why you know deservedly so and I think four years from now are more likely eight years from now He'd still be younger than jill biden or donald trump right at that time. We're just about and um, I wouldn't I wouldn't write him off He's won three terms now as governor of new york, and he's not gonna work in the cabinet He already did that I think was under clinton if I remember correctly But I think his national profile is going to stay high Um And I just it isn't gonna happen now unless something happens Uh to joe biden for some reason health wise this year, and I just Right now that doesn't seem to be the case Well, let's uh, you know the fact is all this all the political You know events that take place between now and election or for that matter after the election And uh coronavirus and in fact everything we've been talking about It's all really about how well the press is doing and will do in informing us and telling us the truth And the press has been under attack in this administration. It's been under attack in a business sense for a long time And uh, you know, one of the articles, uh, or the books that was referred to in that article in the new yorker was called democracy without journalism by a fellow named victor packard at University of pennsylvania And you know, I'm wondering, uh, you know, the the first amendment has been under attack is never before in concept It's almost like, you know, trump would like to throw it out the window attacking the press gratuitously I mean the uh the conference rather the press conference yesterday was a good example of how how far down the road He's gone with attacking the press with for no no good reason and telling lies and misleading and what what did uh The post of the times reported that he he has um, you know now up to 18 000 lies. That's pretty that's not only a record But it's a phenomenon. Um, so my question to you is What do we do to preserve the first amendment in the face of this ongoing attack? What do we do to preserve the integrity of of of the election in november or or running up to november? I mean, there's an obvious attack on the election process There's an obvious attack on the press Uh, there's an obvious as to and in so there's an obvious attack on our constitution The constitution is in jeopardy As has not been the case since the civil war, I think Um, so what do you think about that? What can the press do? We talked about the models. We talked about the way they organize, you know, their news We talked about the consolidation of various media How are we going to save the media and thus save our democracy and thus save our country? Thanks for that softball question jay I couldn't help myself Um, obviously I don't I don't have the answer for that I I will say that I have been heartened by a few things in recent days. Um And by that I mean in the last few weeks or so Fox news the the largest Cable news channel in the united states highly influential for the longest time pretty much the mouthpiece of the trump administration And vice versa, um, you have seen people at fox news start to raise questions and challenge the president That includes chris wallis. I think even brett hum the other day Said raise some concerns about the president And the president has been attacking fox news and as we when I talked earlier, there's a report in the new york times about mitch mcconnell Privately saying that he he has a whole lot of problems with the president I think the word nuts is what was used to the description mitch mcconnell thinking the president is nuts The problem is is the president is the biggest bully in the country in the world and he will attack ruthlessly, but As happened with richard nixon and watergate Eventually enough people came down came around And remember nixon still had about 35 percent of the electorate if I remember correctly the poll number is even with Even after the smoking gun right the tapes and the supreme court and and all that and and still yet people and nixon Was a bigger fighter as trump is and trump loves to fight more than anything He loves to be in the mix of it, but you're starting to see some glimmers Will it change will it Result in his defeat. I honestly don't know but remember one votes in private one doesn't have to share one's vote And it will be the electorate that will make that determination It did four years ago when it sent trump to the white house even though he had only He did not win me the popular vote. So anything can happen Yeah, and there are you know bright spots for example the election was yesterday before in wisconsin Over that judge a democratic judge that was not politicized that way or at least it was a democratic result And we might see more of that You know the funny thing is that you can appreciate that you know under the hood Under the hood below the media level People do take these things seriously. They do take the deaths in the coronavirus series Maybe they take the lies seriously and although, you know friends, they may espouse the base and you know be part of the trump the trump following But you know, there's still a lot of them still thinking still thinking What I worry about is the ultimate numbers because I think we we have we have a country that doesn't fully understand the constitution We have many generations who came up without an adequate education on that and without an opportunity for critical thinking And you know this, you know, you need Can you have a democracy without journalism? Can you have a democracy without the first amendment? Can you have a democracy without informed citizens? And the answer is probably no And so to the extent that you know, we have been at risk up to this point in the trump administration Increasingly if he wins again You know what what do you think will happen? I mean it'll be worse, right? It's surreal to be hearing this question. I believe I hear a slack key in the background. It's all nice And making me relax and so forth If he wins the next four years, it's unfathomable. What will happen? He will As Cuomo said, you're not a king. Well, he will be a king if he wins, uh, it will be um It will be astonishing The authority that he will be given by winning and trump loves nothing more than winning That's his most important goal in life and uh And I hate to think what's what it's going to be like, but that's up to us jay That's up to you. That's up to me the people listening out there Everybody vote and I think we are going to see a record turn out. Maybe it's going to be about mail an election I don't know but uh, it's up to us. It's up to americans to decide where they want to keep their democracy or not Yeah, just a rhetorical question. Can can you actually have a mail in uh vote if you have no mail? I believe the mail is still being delivered that they're wearing masks. They're wearing gloves As you know, hawaii is all mail in there will be some walk-in centers I don't know that the country is going to go I don't think it's possible to gear up for a national elections Elections are done at the state level, right? Each state gets inside how they want to vote But we're seeing that trend line too Hawaii now is joining three or four other states in doing this and despite what the republican party says about being against mail And balancing that's the future Yeah, well speaking of the future. We were having a conversation yesterday to try to structure a survey, right? And one of the one of the people involved in this discussion was saying we we have to ask people what they think is Is going to be the case on this issue or that issue in five years time It's a five years time There's no way in today's world where you could ever predict or speculate or speculate You know we speculate but make make a you know make make some expectation About what will happen in five years, you know about five months is really hard five days There's so many things happen that are surprising and unpredictable and there's so many balls in the air So many vectors so many things that could come in from left field and turn everything on his head You know immediately and this makes the work. This is my final question to you chat This makes the work of the press so much more interesting and important Because the press has to watch all those balls in the air. They have to see it coming even before it comes They have to you know wrap around An increasingly complex world a world of news that is filled with disinformation and surprises How can we do that? You have you know, we I think the press has to change its its mindset To be more open to all all possibilities and to be able to integrate on so many Variables that it did not have to look at before. What do you think? I'll speak up for the press and say that the reporters the editors the news producers the anchors everyone else I think they're doing a hell of a job. I wouldn't say that a very publication or every tv news channel, but I will say Most of them are doing stellar work the best that they've ever done in this country akin to what happened with watergate with the washington pos and the new york times But the model the financial model that's really going to be up to the people and so my Hopeful note to end on is if you care about the truth If you care about trying to find out what's going on and if you care about your country Support your local media like civil beat or the star advertiser And give them your money or the new york times Or the new york times or frankly if you support the wall street journal or even fox news I would never make a plea in support of fox news But there's even some good people there that I think are doing good work chris wallis. I'll mention But if you care about this country support journalism, particularly local journalism like civil beat. There's my shameless plug Well, you know the problem is we've had generations that haven't haven't really learned these lessons And that are not attuned, you know to finding out what's going on and who are Suggestible on fake news and disinformation And you know, they're they're voters they're voters and they could not have good thinking Because they're not getting the news from the right source or any source A lot of people this country, you know, they don't like the news I mean the campaign against fake news against the the enemy of the people has to some extent been successful They don't want to know I talked to one guy. So I saw an article in the new york times. He said new york times I would never read the new york. Really? Anyway, my question to you last Totally last question. Okay. What would you say to about 10 minutes? I gotta report the news We'll be happy to get on that call with you chat But my my last question is gee whiz. What would you say to those people? What would you say to the upcoming generations? About the importance of these issues the importance of educating themselves and becoming responsible citizens. What would you tell them? Why I think I've already Kind of made my stand if you will and why it's so important This could be a whole another topic of a Of a think take with you on on the younger generation and so forth I am heartened by the number of people I see still working in journalism The number of people that are going beyond just superficial headlines and rss feeds Maybe it's in my arena that I encounter a lot of people that are pretty pretty sharp pretty akamai pretty plugged in But for every Down moment every time I get a little frustrated that someone expresses something like you said Oh, I wouldn't read the new york times. You know, j I got family members. I won't read the new york times And I'm not gonna challenge them. I'm not gonna try and change them I'm I'm gonna work however to hope that there are more people that do want to believe the new york times or civil D or the star advertiser Then then don't and those are the ones. I think are gonna lead us out of this Yeah, and you're doing it every day. Thank you so much chat. It's great to talk to you great to hear about all these things from you Great to explore American studies with you if you will Thank you so much My advice to you now at the close of our program is go wash your hands Oh, boy more than that. Thanks j