 Good afternoon and welcome back to the touchline on Y2F5. My name is Maxwell Waseke. Right now we speak about the state of boxing in the canton and we are glad to be joined by Public Relations Officer for Boxing Association of Kenya Dan Kankura, who is also a former international boxer, also known as Suga Re. Suga Re, good to join us and good afternoon. How have you been? Good afternoon Maxwell, I'm good. The last time I saw you, it was before you went to Morocco or Abat for all Afrika games. How was the experience being there? It was a very good experience. We had a very short time to prepare our team for the Afrika games, but then we went and participated very effectively. We competed again as very competent teams and we were able to get five medals. Apart from the games themselves, we also had an interaction with the Aiba president, so we were able to correct a few things with the administration of Aiba, which also helps in our relationship with Aiba, so I'm thinking so far so good. Do you think that was the best performance from Kenyan team because going by the 2015 brother wild results, it was three medals overall? No, in Kongo brother we only got two bronze. Yes, it was Niko Kote in Lightweight and Helia Joy. So they both got bronze and they were both in the team that went to Morocco for Afrika games. I think the team performed much better. I think the guys were motivated. The morale in the team was very high. The president of the federation, Mr Jamal, really motivated the guys because he was always there training with the boxers and he was able now even to motivate them in terms of giving them allowances here and there, sorting small problems within the camp. So we were not really dependent on the allowances that are paid by the government. So I'm thinking that aspect of management is what now enables the boxers to perform much better this time because like I've already said, it's the same boxers that were there before, but this time the performance by the same boxers is much improved. So I'm thinking the management aspect of it was very positive and it cascaded down to the boxing unit, which was very good and we are thinking going forward with more time to prepare especially for the Olympic qualifiers. I'm thinking we are going to perform much much better in future. Osora Robert, while we were speaking about Adela Amruch and the courts of arbitration for sports ruling on FKF paying him his dues, there is also another pronouncement. From what boxing, Kansu, if I'm not wrong, on Fatuma Zarika's rematch, she was supposed to confirm her rematch against Mercado by yesterday evening. I don't know whether this goes a long way in trying to ensure that, you know, sanity prevails in boxing as a sport. I think for Fatuma Zarika she is in a very tough situation because for us she is in the professional boxing category. That's what is making her tough and then you realize that her promoter and most of activities have been sponsored by the betting company, SportPesa. Now the problem is the moment SportPesa pulls out of that sponsorship, she remains alone. She doesn't have any money that she is going to use for the training. Remember the company was helping her pitch come in England, get most of a professional training in England, good equipment that she is going to use. But now she will be alone with no professional coaches, no backup plan on how she is going to do for that much. And the title if she confirms that she is going to fight, she might not be able to hold the fight here in Nairobi. She has to hold it outside the country and that probability is the title might go away. When we are speaking about promotional activities and sponsorship for boxing as a sport, I have seen several boxers, even Judy Waguthi, I know you know her, trying to appeal to good sponsors and Samaritans to come on board and ensure that she fights so that she remains active in boxing. And that has been a challenge. Do you think the sponsorship and promotional aspect of the game has been main and doing of the sport to grow? I think it's one of the biggest challenges that we have in the sport, boxing especially and I think across, even the other sporting discipline has issues with sponsorship. But now for the first time we had seen a lot of improvement in terms of staging big games in the country, courtesy of the sponsorship that we are getting through SportPesa. You remember the fights that Zarika had at KICC, they were funded by SportPesa. And the logistics of organizing a major title fight like WBC, they are massive. And the risk that we stand is that both Judy and Fatuma Zarika, they can lose their titles because of not being able to organize the defense here in the country especially. And you remember when Zarika won her title, it was against Jamaica and in America. And it was a surprise, they didn't expect she can win it. And even after she won it, she was not paid her money. So it's always advantageous when you have such a major fight, you hold it at home. Where the crowd is with you, all the preparation logistics are much much easier when you are doing a match at home than when you are away. But then now when it comes to even funding the preparation part of it, it becomes a serious challenge because you need a proper diet to be able to prepare well for about. You need movement, you need publicity, there are a lot of things that need to be done. Just hold your mic from the middle, yes. There is a lot of logistics that is involved in organizing such major fights. And without sponsorship like what SportPesa was giving, it will be at all order. You see now the challenge I find with our government is now you do away with a betting company like SportPesa which is spending so much money in helping the youths who are involved in sports. But then nothing comes in to fill the gap that has been left. There is a serious void that has been left in terms of sports promotion across the country. Not just in boxing, even in football. I still hope that we will suffer the community clubs. And you see now if we are talking about sports fund, it has its challenges in terms of how it is administered like now. Our national women's boxing team is supposed to be in Russia for world championship. They are not able to travel because of funding issues. So I think the government is really to consider the issue of sports sponsorship and the sport betting company because there is a serious void which they had come and had to fill. And the future was very bright. But now when they are not there, I am thinking it is going to be very tough for the youths of this country. I think the government is at fault, yes, but I think the major problem is also with the sports federation because the sports federation, one thing that they need to do is they need to come together. Past being boxing, past being football, past being valuable and everything. They need to come together and come up with calendars. They come up with their own sports calendars, come up with budgets that in before financial year starts, they need to petition the government and tell them this is what we are going to do. If you realize that with all the government bureaucracy that is going on, if you come midway through the financial year and tell the government that we need 60 million for this and this, it will be very hectic for the minister and also the government to give you that money. So these sports federation, they need to know that in a year we have let's say five events, prepare for the five events and present that budget early enough the government can consider. Because now the government at the moment the government is in a situation where even the sports fund itself was to be funded by this company. The money that was coming from this betting companies and all the other companies for CSR activities now it is not going to be there. So the government is actually has put itself in a situation where they need to also get into the budget level and make sure that they inject money into the sports activities. Now it will be very hard for sports activities to be funded which do not bring glory to Kenya. I know corporate confidence is attracted by accountability and transparency of those who are at the helm of various sporting federation. Jamal Otien Omboku now is in charge of BAK as the president after the elections and a few changes have been witnessed at the helm. Do you think what is happening right now BAK can attract a close association with other stakeholders who won't sponsor and finance your activities? Yes I think how we are managing our affairs can give confidence to the corporate world first because whatever small resources you have you must show how you are utilizing the resources and accounting for every coin that you have. I like the way he is speaking as if he is speaking for the government because you know there are rules, there are regulations which are supposed to guide how you apply for the funds. And every federation actually gives a calendar of activities and before for every financial year. Yes you have planned a whole year and you have provided budgetary allocation for each event that you are supposed to participate in. But you see now it's a problem when that pot every sport discipline is supposed to fetch from that pot. So it's very difficult when... So it gets drained. Yes and it's not just federation even individuals. Yes. You know now with the sports act you can register as a professional athlete. Even as an individual. There is a system for that. So there is no discrimination that this sport does not bring glory to the country so it can't be funded. There is nothing like smaller federation. No there is nothing like that. All of them are supposed to be given some treatment. Because all sporting discipline are supposed to be funded from that kitty. Regardless of if you are bringing glory or not because glory is not part of the criteria for accessing the funds. So I am thinking the way he said there is a component where the federation is supposed to be accountable. The problem in this country is that a lot of federation are bad rangals. Yes. And rangals are not productive to the sports at all because if anything they are... That's what keeps away the corporate world and potential sponsors from coming to support the sports. So we think the... Like a box federation the way we are handling ourselves is attractive to potential sponsors. But we need to keep you know step up our game. We need to venture into marketing activities. We need to professionalize how we operate. Ideally federation and even sporting clubs are supposed to be professional such that they are able to generate some income to sustain themselves. At the moment I think most of our clubs and even federation they entirely depend on funding from the government. Which is a major undoing also. Which is a major undoing. So I think going forward people we need to come up with a model of how we can fund sports and we professionalize our clubs. So that clubs are able to fund their activities and I think that is a model which will be sustainable because now this one where everybody is looking at the government and the government has got so many other responsibilities to handle because it's not just sports that the government is handling. They are more challenging areas with their emergencies, their disasters and the government. Everybody is looking at the government. So we need to see how as probably the ministry of sports can come up with a model of how respective federation and sports clubs within the federation can be able to professionalize their activities. So that they are able to be sustainable, they can be income generating, they have different activities that they can be able to do. Like what I have seen with football they are trying with club licensing to professionalize how clubs operate. You know you don't have to be depending entirely on getting donations to be able to maybe honor your fixtures. But you see now like even in boxing sometimes it becomes very difficult for clubs to attend league fixtures because they are not able to fund even movement through the tournaments. The question I love because traditionally the major part between boxing and making money has been TV all over the world. You look at the way TV and boxing associations work to try and get together and try to get promotions and get a big company behind them. So I think the fight between Floyd Mayweather and Pacquiao, the days even from the Titans and everything. For boxing association of Kenya, what are you doing considering that so that you can get, let's say you start small so that people can start knowing that you guys are back and you are doing things differently. So what are the things that you are doing to try and bring that on board? I like that question. Yes we actually I think for the short period I think at the moment we are just about 93 days in office. And within this short time I think we've been visible enough. People in the country get to know exactly what is it that you are doing. The performance that we got from Africa Games is a testament to the improvement and the changes that we have implemented within the federation. And probably I need to correct you, nowadays we don't call boxing association of Kenya, we are boxing federation of Kenya in compliance with the sports act. So things have changed even the name of the federation is BFK, not BAK like it was before. But I agree with you, the component of marketing and visibility through TV is one of the key areas that we need to work on. But at the moment in amateur boxing it has not been very vibrant. So we've not had a scenario where even league matches are being shown live on TV. But in professional it has worked very well. There is a model that the international boxing federation has tried to introduce which was trying to bring a component of professional boxing within amateur boxing. It was called WPB, the one oku or Kenokiru playing WPB. So it didn't work very well. At the moment it's not work, it has failed. But the thing is because how the whole concept was thought about was not the best. And the funding of the activities also had challenges. It made the international federation to incur a lot of debts in terms of how they were to fund the activities and some agreement that were entered into between some company from China and a former director of the international boxing federation. But locally we have not tried yet but we are making our effort to be seen, to be vibrant. So that the country gets to know what is it that within boxing we are trying to do. We have come up with the concept of boxing machinani. We want to take boxing to the grassroot in the county level. We believe we are trying to implement the… That's also partnering with the counties. Yes, Sports Act because sports is a devolved function. And we are thinking at the grassroot level is where we need to be felt most because that is where we are generating the talent. So what had happened is from around 1990 up to maybe 2000… Where we are now? Boxing started going down when we came up… The government came up with the program of structural adjustment programs where boxers who had been recruited into state corporations were basically employed because of their talent, not because of their education credentials. And when now issues of structural adjustment program came in, they started retrenching officers who were employed by different corporations who didn't have proper academic papers and sportsmen were the first ones to be kicked out with retrenchments. So what happened is that those clubs which were at the grassroot level most of them ended up dying out. So we are not generating enough talent at the grassroot level but the ones who are at the top level… Normally what happens is that the local clubs produce the talent, then the top clubs like Kenya Prison, Kenya Police, KDF, they recruit them into employment in their respective jobs. So what happens is that we never invest back into nurturing this talent at the grassroot level. So we need to reactivate those sales where this talent is produced at the grassroot level so that we are able to have depth at the national level where we make the league to be very competitive through having as many clubs participating within the county first because we need to organize a tournament to select a county team to participate in the league. So you have a championship at the county level, then when you are organizing a Kenya Open, you have different counties. For instance, within the Boxing Federation of Kenya we have 19 counties and that is inclusive of KDF, Kenya Prison and Kenya Police. So if we have those 19, they all have a team which they have selected competitively. Then you have a championship involving all those teams and we are assuming all the teams have full team. A full team in Boxing has 10 members, 10 boxes. It should be 10 for men and 10 for women. At the moment when it comes to the women's side we have few but it's much better than it was 3-5 years back. Most women are coming out now to join Boxing which is very good I think for the moment because we need to invest back in the women Boxing because even at the international level we are seeing they are trying to introduce what you call gender parity in Boxing and for the first time in these Olympic Games we are going to have 100 women participating in Boxing. I can educate the members of the public that women Boxing was introduced at the Olympic level in 2012, Land and Olympics. We had only three weight categories, fly weight, lightweight and middle weight. The same applies in the Rio Olympic Games where we still had the three weight categories and 36 female Boxers. But now going forward what has happened at the international level is that they have killed 2 weight categories in men where 64 slots which were for men now have gone to women so we are going to have a total of 286 slots for Boxers and 100 among those are going to be women. We are seeing it's an area that we also need to pick upon. We have brought in the issue of women and gender and everything is going well and we have discussed the challenges from the federation level from the international level. What I think people want to understand Golbi, what is that challenge a Boxer faces personally because I think that is one of the major challenges that we have for Boxers because this club that I grew up in Nakuru and Nakuru Railway was one of the biggest clubs that we had for Boxing. And they used to go to Madison Square. One of the biggest things that we had we had also Nairobi Railway Club was one of the big Mombasa and also Nyanyuki. Those were some of the biggest clubs that we had for Boxing and right now what was that challenge that a Boxer faces that sometimes they give up they don't want actually to go back and play the game. Thank you very much for that question. The biggest problem that the Boxers have is to earn a source of livelihood through their sport. Somebody will come because I believe Boxing is the toughest sport in the world. Its training is very tough. So a Boxer somebody will come to the gym each and every day first they also have challenges with equipments. You come to the gym you don't have boxing gloves there are no bugs. We just train maybe running around doing shadow boxing but you require to have the boxing equipments. Basically you need gloves for sparing then you have pads and the punching gloves to punch the pads we need a punching bag and gloves to punch the bag. Then you need a bit of skipping rope so that you are able to jump the ropes maybe it's part of the exercise regime in Boxing. So once you have those equipments and you train now the biggest challenge is now what do you get out of this sport? After you come you are spending so much time in training but then at the end of it you don't earn anything back and that's why you see now the Boxers who are employed maybe in the forces KDF and Kenya Police are the ones who are doing so well because they are assured of an income at the end of the month they have a salary at the end of the month to sustain themselves so it's become much easier for them to Box. These are the ones where we have maybe these self-sponsored clubs there's nothing you will get you just come for training you spend so much time preparing for a tournament sometimes you don't even go for those tournaments because your club cannot be able to fund travelling to a championship when you go maybe when you have a league we have a league tournament there is also some participation fee that is paid of 2000 shillings per club sometimes some clubs cannot afford that amount so those are the small challenges that a Boxer will encounter and sometimes it is discouraging because everybody wants to improve their livelihood you want to live a better life than those who are there maybe before you and sometimes you see now sometimes even you are here at the national team level you are representing your country sometimes you come back without having paid those allowances so when you go back somebody thinks because they saw you on TV you have a lot of money and your pockets are empty so those are some of the discouraging things that are in the sporting fraternity because I only say those are just things that are encountered in Boxing alone but even in this other sporting discipline you encounter the same before Zoro asks you another question for the first time in the history of the sport locally there are two men who are at the helm of the leadership of that particular discipline of course Kenya Professional Boxing Commission now Ruben Dolo former member of parliament and he has also been actively involved in the management of the sport at international level and Jamal which also former Boxer being in charge of Amacha how are you working together how is the partnership for the growth of the sport ideally we need to have a very good working relationship because in the Amacha ranks that's where somebody gets experience of Boxing and there's a provision even in the statutes in the Boxing world where when you get to 40 years you are not able to continue Boxing at the Amacha level you need to maybe retire or go to professional ranks but in an ideal setup I believe once somebody has represented Kenya at the Olympic level I don't see why you should continue being in Amacha ranks trying to go for three or four Olympic games when you can be able to go to professional and be able to earn some money out of your talent so in the past we've had a very bad working relationship between the Amacha ranks and professional because those who were in the leadership helm at that time they were seeing it as if it's a crime for an Amacha Boxer to associate with a professional Boxer so you find now because of that hostility in terms of the leadership most Boxers who are not standing professional at the right edge in fact given up to now most of our Boxers overstay in the Amacha ranks in my opinion because you find somebody who is more than 30 years old that's when you want to turn professional Did Boxers like Gisharu play pro? No he didn't but he participated in the the one that is organized by Aiba for about 2 to 3 years that's part of professional but Okuri is now in professional ranks but you see now when you look at their age they are not in their 20s they are all in their 30s but you go out there you find Boxers who are young enough I'll give you an example of a Boxer from Cuba he is called Ramirez he is 24 years old he has won two Olympic golds and he has turned professional you have a bit of years to be able to make money in the professional ranks participating at that level at highest level the problem is when you turn professional when you are more than 30 years old you know the mileage that's late get a younger Boxers from abroad it will be a tall order for you just like you look you follow football so much it's not very easy for a top club to sign a player who is over 30 years old such a player unless you are exceptionally talented and you are also not going to get many years in your contract it will be maybe one year to be extended at the end of it so there is a serious challenge in terms of our Boxers transiting from professional ranks to professional ranks but now with the new leadership I think we can improve that Dolo has been in Boxing for a very long time Jamal has been in Boxing for a long time somebody like me have been in Boxing for a very long time and we are working together with them we are able to advise them how we need to arrange the whole transition phase where a Boxer who has participated at the national team level we don't need to keep them so much within the amateur ranks we make them transit easily to professional again I think there is something that has been worked on with the professional Boxing commission office that I don't know whether I would say they were not elected back they had an election which had issues so the office that was there tried to organize with the defense forces to allow their Boxers also to turn professional because that was another challenge that was there is it not about an individual decision it has to be negotiations yes it is an individual decision but you also have to respect that these people are employed by those respective organizations and the reason why they employed you is to participate for them in the national league so for if you want to go professional you need to get approval from your work so that was a challenge but which I believe the head of the Boxing team in Kenya defense forces was able to work with the leadership of our military our military KDF and they have come up with an agreement that the Boxers in KDF can be able to transit to professional ranks and I think that is a very good step towards enabling our Boxers to be able to participate in the professional ranks easily because if somebody now if somebody tells you that because you are employed within this organization then you are not able to participate in professional boxing somehow they are curtailing your career progression I don't know how because now when you are military again now you have a different career in the military but now this is a talent that you use to get that employment and that's what actually they do most of the time because our Boxers who are in the forces most of the time they are on release doing boxing that's what they know best so before we wrap I know Zoro Robert had some question before I let you go for me I just wanted to say if you can is there hope for the future because you are young in office at the moment you are young you are trying to put your things in order is there hope for the future is tremendous hope very high hopes because the new leadership has come up with a lot of ideas on how to improve the livelihood of the Boxers themselves we need to prepare them also for life after boxing that is something that has never been done before so you will find most of our Boxers they don't live very decent lives especially after they have participated in boxing for a long time and brought a lot of glory to the country sometimes you meet them out there and you feel like running away so we need to see how we can also be able to take care of them after somebody has done a lot of service for the country for very many years when they have retired I think we can find a way of helping them also to give back we have like I've told you we are doing boxing don't be machinani boxing back to the grass roots we think it's an opportunity to be able to use the former international Boxers who have retired to be able to go and nurture talent within those clubs so we second them to different clubs within the counties so that they are able to tap the role talent that is available at the grass root level and that way I think they will be able to help them because if we keep you in a club and we have a stipend for you at the end of the month at least it keeps you going other than being loitering around waiting for hand out somewhere I think that's a way in which you can be able to help our former international who are retired to be able to give back to the sport and also improve the quality that is being produced at the local level but on top of that we also need to organize a lot of coaching courses we have a serious challenge in terms of the level of certified coaches available in the country like most of the clubs that we are talking about in the counties they don't have coaches who have attained like Aiba star 1 ranking and you need to understand that the national level team national team level is only star 3 that is able to handle national team and at star 3 level I think we only have about 7 in the country and then in terms of also officials the referee and judges we have another big problem because we only have one star 2 and a few star 1 the one who is star 2 is the one who is in charge of the referee and judges and you see now like for instance the african games that we participated in we participated in Morocco the minimum requirement for an official to share in such a games was star 3 which we don't have in the whole country so we have a serious challenge that I'm thinking to be able to use some of those former boxers to be able also to do these courses for referee and judges so that we have adequate resources within our counties when you organize a tournament maybe if it's kisumu you are able to have officials within kisumu officiating such a tournament rather than having to use funds to transport officials from Nairobi to come and officiate a small tournament in kisumu it's not very helpful considering that you are saying most of our clubs don't have adequate resources to be able to fund the activities throughout the season always a pleasure speaking to you Dan Kankuria public relations officer and communications manager for boxing federation of Kenya is also a former international boxer joining us to tell us the state of boxing in the country and the progress of the current regime led by Jamal always a pleasure speaking to you probably next time we shall create a whole show so that we can talk about boxing in our bid to restore the glory of the sport thank you for coming through and all the best thank you very much of course that has been state of boxing we take a short break and of course the guru joins us on the set in a few minutes time that is Paul Bitok the acting coach for Malkia Strikas and former national team coach for Rwanda don't go away stay tuned