 Hello and welcome to NewsClick. Today we have with us Professor Nadirah Shaluk Kevorkian whose most recent book is Incarcerating Childhood. She teaches at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem and that's where we find her in the old city of Jerusalem. Nadirah, welcome to NewsClick. Thank you. Well, before we get too deep into some of the things that have been happening in Palestine, could you from the standpoint of the old city of Jerusalem, could you give us a sense of what the mood is like, not only during this time of the pandemic, but of course this seemingly permanent occupation? Well, you know, the situation as is, it's a settler colonial machinery of oppression that is working day and night. So our lives, our daily lives, the walk to school, the work, the economic situation, the social situation, the legal situation of Palestinians in East Jerusalem and of course the spatial temporal because the building, two days ago there was a major demolition of a house here in East Jerusalem, the arrest of children. So life is packed. So we are really the general mood is a mood that goes between colonialism and colonialism. Seriously, it's between the corona and the situation regarding the corona and the Israeli settler colonial system, whereby, you know, when I say settler colonialism, I mean that it is, it's not an event here and an event there. It's a structure, not an event. It's built on the eviction of the native and the indigenization of the settler. So this is what you see daily and it's embedded in the logic of elimination and the elimination is in different modes. You know, the cultural, the religious, the social, the legal and the actual and the actual as you have seen with the case of Iyad Halak. And maybe that's a good place to talk about his killing. I mean, there's a lot of news coverage about the death of George Floyd in the United States as there should be. I mean, this man, of course, didn't deserve to be killed. The reaction of the police in the United States is extraordinary against protesters and so on. But around the same time, this young man was shot to death in Jerusalem. Could you talk a little bit about the murder of Iyad Halak? Yeah, well, you know, as you said, what went on in the US and what is going on in the US against the black community, the racism, the racialization of the system, the fact that black lives are not, do not matter and the incarceration of blacks is higher than whites. And the whiteness of the system that is there to really dispossess the black community, the history of slavery. So add to all this because and they are the call for equality. Over here, we're not calling for equality because it's not about equality because the system is not looking at us as equal. The system is really there to to effect, to really let go back. And the case of the killing of Iyad is another case of killing. Unfortunately, you know, in the old city, he was on his way to work. This kid is autistic and he he was really and the way, you know, I know him because he used to be with me in community centers where when I gather children, I work with children, I collect letters from children and he just sits and looks and wonder and is such a calm person. And you need to remember that Iyad doesn't speak Hebrew like many Palestinians. It's not because they cannot speak Hebrew. It's because it carries like really emotional burden. Like I have my own, my own husband doesn't want to speak Hebrew because this is this is the language of the occupier. So Iyad like many other Palestinians. So the soldiers and the military in the old city and it's at the entrance of the Haram Sharif. It's not their area. See, this is occupied land. This is not their place to be. And they probably spoke to him in Hebrew and they he didn't get it. And his teacher kept on saying that he is disabled. He has this ability. He doesn't understand. He fears Hebrew. I can tell you because we used to sit in in the mask escape. He the moment he hears Hebrew, he gets scared and he, you know, he tries to hide. And they were screaming and when someone is screaming at you with the rifles with all the machineries that around them. And he tried to run away and he has on his body here. It's written because that that sign that car that he is a disabled man. And they run after him. They killed him beside the trash cans. It's that, you know, it's that wounding that is not the wounding of his body. But it's the body of a general community that knows that in minutes they can kill someone without being sure without checking without understanding without being attentive without being reminded that they are the occupiers. They are in our areas, not the opposite. This is his way to his work, to his school, not the opposite. And mind you, Vijay, remember that in last September when I was also working with the other case of Naseem Aburumi. Naseem Aburumi almost same area, 14 year old, 36 kilograms. They just killed him in minutes. This execution of kids of people without thinking and the argument usually, oh, they're afraid. Well, if you're afraid, don't be here. If you're afraid, just don't come here. Don't be here. You're afraid because you know that the land is stolen, that the area is occupied. Otherwise, you won't be afraid. And that claim, you know, it's a very sad case because it's Iyad, it's Naseem, it's Fatma Hijaji, where not only they kill, they go to the house. They check the house and mess it up. They go to the teacher and she's interrogated for hours. You know, in the case of Naseem Aburumi, they took the body and we were struggling. I remember visiting the family in Naseem and his mother was begging me, yeah, please just find a way, let them return my son. His 36 kilograms, his short, his tiny, why did they kill him? And then, and I remember the discussion with the family in their backyard and their front yard. Actually, when his sister, 11 year old told me, because we were discussing how can we convince the Israelis to return the body as in the case of Iyad. Because not only they kill, then you need to ask the Israelis to bring the body back to give him the proper farewell to allow the family to have a closure to comprehend and understand. And with the case of Naseem, you know, we needed to go to court and the court is in Jerusalem and his father is an ex-political prisoner. So he was unable to go to the court. And of course his mother can't cross. And his sister came to me and she's like, but doctor, they killed him. Why do we need, how can they try a dead body? So when you think about it, how those kids are able to comprehend the marking of the dead body, even the marking, the mere rioting over the dead body as unwanted as otherwise. In the case of Iyad, they knew that it was all on camera. And you know, technology is playing to our hand because again, remember, the old city is packed with cameras. And people are all with cell phones like the case of George Floyd, you know, this is what happened. In the case of Muhammad Abu Khdeir before, it was the camera of one of the shops that saved us and allowed us to know that somebody kidnapped him. Because at first the Israeli news said, oh, he's gay and the family killed him and these are honor crimes. So even, you know, collecting evidence is really curved by the entire system. So with the case of Naseem Abrum, we really needed to go to court and I was, I was struggling, but then they decided no need to come to court. They will release the body. And then the struggle of getting the body not frozen in a proper manner that the family can really pay the payroll is another story. With Iyad, the entire Israeli system wanted to show the family because we're talking here about an autistic kid that they are under. They do understand the family and they think it's a mistake or, you know, this is the one bad apple. Yeah, it's not the system. It's that one bad apple. And they wanted to go and pay their condolences and think about the Palestinian family. That just lost a child. That needs to be kind and nice to those good Israelis, including the mayor of Jerusalem, Moshe Leon, and including others that wanted to go and to pay their condolences and the mess around the two days ago. It was yesterday night that one of the Knesset members went there and there was a big fight and Palestinians were hit him and he ended up in the hospital and so many people are under arrest. So the condition Jerusalem is this, this slow violence that is always there. And there's this, you know, real strong violence that you see it all over the area. And because I work, you know, my book on unchilding, the new book, it's called incarcerated childhood and the politics of unchilding. I really talk about unchilding because if you compare it to other settler colonial context, like in Canada or the US, the aim was, you know, to kill the Indian and save the child over here. It's not the case. It's about the child is considered unchilded dangerous terrorist born criminal other that should be killed in different ways. So either you suffocate them economically, you demolish their houses, you do not give them the ID and you will revoke their citizenship. So it's a different system of this possession that is hard to twerk in every single aspect of life over here in education. And it's sometimes it's in those benevolent modes. It's in the name of saving and caring, like the case of Yad where everybody wants to go and pay their condolences and, you know, just leave the family alone, let them comprehend what goes on. Yeah, it's a sad situation. And if you talk to shop owners here, and this is what I do when I go grocery shopping in the old city every, every day or every two days is that the situation is so sad. They were always the Quranic versions and with them because they were afraid of not, you know, they didn't they can't show their anger and their agony and the pain. So the best way is to put the event to put them as in and the prayer to show that there is morning a sense of morning. So, you know, they can't fight the music and the and the prayers, but it's a it's a very sad condition. It's a very sad condition that's correct. But, you know, I know that you always work to build the other side of history, not to allow the bad side, you know, what you called I think quite beautifully the slow violence, then the strong violence, not to allow that to dictate the terms. You're involved in a initiative known as the Jerusalem Alliance. I wonder if you could tell our viewers something about this initiative. Yeah, well, I think that the corona reminded us and as as I always say in my writing and in my work, you know, there's something so beautiful about the Palestinian community, no matter no matter, you know, even in the case of the theme of a room who was who was, you know, extra judicially executed and so on, the kind of togetherness alliances solidarity is amazing. The same happened with the Jerusalem Alliance. The Jerusalem Alliance started by, you know, with the coronavirus we decided that the NGOs are working. Some are working on the economics. Some are working on psychological. Some are working on women's issues. Some are working on legal issues and so on. So there, so the Alliance was constructed. It's almost 89 small NGOs. You need to remember that Jerusalem, you know, the Palestinian Authority cannot come here. And the Israelis are trying to invade and control and we were really afraid so that Alliance started by distributing food by by helping in getting medicine by reaching out and especially young men and women that were working day and night. In helping us because people were extremely afraid lack of information, not knowing the language very well. So that helped a lot. Of course, you know, the Israelis as usual, the Israelis used it so badly. For example, the governor of Jerusalem was arrested and interrogated. The minister of Jerusalem was arrested. The food that was collected by people, you know, so many people were giving them food. The ministry was confiscated and the municipality came and said, like, we will give food. And it was amazing how, for example, when Mashallah and his group wanted to bring food, they wanted to take pictures and show that they're going into Silvan and going into Bab Al-Amoud to show that here we are very civil and nice and benevolent. But the initiatives were amazing. Like, for example, here in our area in the old city, the municipality did not come to disinfect the area. Our kids were doing it. Of course, they were arrested a couple of times and they were stopped and fine were imposed on them. But it was amazing collective work from different organizations. So those that are more professionals in mental health have supported mental health issues, especially with children. Educational institution worked so beautifully in reaching out to kids in school community centers. I have here a community center that is very close to me. Everybody was on the computer and on the cell. Of course, it's very challenging because not everybody has access to proper computers or cell phones or so on. But people were because of the closeness in the area. So those that were baking were sending and delivering and helping and sharing and writing to each other and checking on each other. You know, Palestinian community never sees them. It's packed with love. And love is a practice of freedom. Nobody can imprison love. Nobody can imprison music. Nobody can imprison the smell of food and bread. So this is what we were doing. And I was collecting letters from kids about the coronavirus. So as to feel, to map, to detect their fears and to build programs to address it. So the collection of letters was fascinating and how like they are willing to take the corona if the occupation will go. Or like kids at the age of 10 years old and 11 years old. It's just beautiful to see how they kind of create hope in the situation of living between colonialism and colonialism. I would hate to take the conversation back to the ugly side of history, but I really did want to ask your opinion. The Trump administration has become very aggressive in the statements it's been making about moving the U.S. Embassy to Jerusalem. And we don't really hear the point of view of people in Jerusalem. We hear the Trump administration position. We hear the Israeli government position. But we don't really hear what the people of Jerusalem are saying about the move of this embassy into the old city. What is the general sense in the city of this illegal action by the Trump administration? See, you know, talking about mourning all the shops in the old city were with Quran prayer as if someone died when Trump declared that our city is theirs. And this sacralization of politics, this narrativeizing who is the supremist exclusive have more power. And you know, when you talk about God gave them the land, so how can you fight God and security and Trump and so on. But again, I can tell you letters of kids with my work with children because I'm informed by kids. I'm like the bottom up person and I asked them what what worries them and so on their anger toward the action by Trump, their fear of what goes on. And where would we end up and the fear of being evicted of another 1948 Mecca be of taking the land from us and taking the area and as you can see. So the people here are of course refusing kids were in the streets women were in the streets we were demonstrating and but but our voices are not really heard. I try I try to I just finished a book on sacralization of politics. I start with Trump and he this guy is is became a president after grabbing women's buses. So now it's from from a pussy grabber to a city grabber. He grabbed our city and he went into into declaring it as if he knows what he's doing. And so it's also very problematic, but they can do that. They cannot. I think that the resistance of the people, the resilience of the people, the continuation to me to a person like me who who sits in the mask of gate and watches kids walking to school. I feel that their mere walk to school is saying no to any occupation and any annexation and any confiscation and dispossession. And and and you know you need to use our, you know, the narrative, the way we are framing what goes on. So what goes on is another mode. It's the different way of the global politics that is dispossessing Palestinian from their cities. And we really need to start renaming what we see and what we we have seen in Jerusalem is extremely extremely violent. It's abuse of power. It's state criminality, but it's the U.S. state criminality against Palestinian. So I would really call it crimes of the state against the Palestinian, not only the Israeli state, but also the the U.S. Well, Nader, it's great to have you on news click. I hope we'll come back to you. I think voices from Jerusalem are essential. People don't hear, I think, enough from Palestine. I think used to be the case. People took Palestine at their heart, but so many other things to worry about. We are forgetting what's happening in Palestine. We mustn't. Thank you so much for joining us on news click. Thank you very much.