 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Bucci Lotto and here with my intrepid colleague Scott Bernstein. Hey now, haven't said that in a while. So I don't want people to have to adjust their TV sets or monitors. This isn't a rerun. This is a new episode. I've been helping with some behind the scenes aspects of the show but a lot of you know I rarely appear on camera any longer. I recorded my last episode about two or three months ago and some people were asking me on social media what was up with that. I did post something on Instagram but that was it. Just thanking everyone. We did an episode a few months ago on the Lufthansa heist and if you go to the very end of it I mentioned what was going on in my life. I need to focus more on my academic stuff teaching and writing at the university so I just don't have the time to commit to full time on the podcast any longer. So anyhow but once in a while if I can I'm happy to jump on again and especially like an episode like this we're very honored to have a special guest Moch. It's one of our highest rated episodes so we're happy to have Moch back and talk about his book. Welcome my friend. Yeah thanks so much for having me back man. The last time was a really good time so I'm happy to be back. Jimmy tell everyone that might not know who Moch is because I'm sure we've gained a lot of followers since Moch was on last time. Yeah we have it's check out the episode with him before it's very popular but Moch was part of the Outlaw Motorcycle Club subculture and specifically the Mongols and the Vagos and he talked about his life but we're happy to have him back again because in the meantime he's published a book The Rite of My Life. I highly recommend this book. I've gone through it a couple of times and there's a lot of interesting stuff in here stuff that wasn't covered in our podcast so you know we're happy to have you back Moch. Thanks so much for having me. Let everyone know also before we jump in I mean Moch was a boss. He was a shot caller. He was one of the highest ranking Mongols in the country and helped was one of the original guys that kind of started to push the brand out to the Midwest. It didn't really get that much publicity in more recent years. It started to be a little bit more attention put on that from both myself in Gangster Report but also mainstream media in Chicago. So Moch is he's seen a lot and we're just jacked and amped that he's come by again to share his insight and his life with us. Yeah and I wanted to go to the beginning Moch because you know I thought I have had you know some direct messaging with Moch. I thought I was a troublemaker when I was in high school and then I ran with some with some tough dudes. You read this you read this book and Moch you want to talk about hellraisers. They made me seem like you know a cub scout. Yeah my poor mom had to deal with some stuff. Yeah yeah just share a couple of stories maybe about just so the audience I mean you know they can read it the rest of it in the book but just just give the audience an idea of what we mean by that. Well you know I grew up with an identical twin brother so I think we were kind of in search for identity and for whatever reason we decided that violence was going to be that identity so we grew up wrestling and boxing and stuff but it really turned into you know a lot of street fighting stuff and we got heavy into the punk rock and anti-racist skinhead scene so we spent a lot of time physically fighting with you know Nazi skinheads, rival gangs that type of thing so you know a lot of going to concerts getting in big group fights you know the back and forth of gang fighting and stuff like that. Yeah and I want to ask you about that because you point out something in your book a couple of times that you grew up in your words tight knit Italian family seems pretty stable middle-class I mean I know your biological father had some some issues but but seems like for the most part you were tight with your grandparents your mom and I think it's interesting because sometimes in the literature you'll read that like this sort of economic reductionist argument that the only reason why people become involved in in youth gangs is because they have you know there's not a lot of economic development in the neighborhood and I do think that that that can be a factor but in your case that wasn't it so can you talk I mean what was going on with socialization and psychology that would you know kind of instigate your brother you guys to have that kind of behavior even though it's not the usual suspects in terms of your larger environment. Well like you said too I think ecology plays a big part in that right if you're in a low-income area single-parent household stuff like that then the statistics are gonna speak a lot higher to what you're talking about where you know they're looking for protection or belonging in my case middle-class great family you know I said played sports and all that stuff and and for me it was more of an identity piece you know as an identical twin I was trying to figure out my place in the world who I wanted to be known as and it found out pretty quick that I got a reputation you know negatively unfortunately from you know fighting and stuff and then that drew me into just that punk rock and music scene and I don't think people from the outside know how much gang involvement there is in that punk rock world or that you know hardcore music and punk rock and so I guess kind of learned as I went there and then really got sucked into that lifestyle but it initially started more with just kind of the music and you know just getting into that that lifestyle. Do you think that's in some ways like the the next step from the first step being in the late 60s early 70s with Hell's Angels and maybe outlaws that were immersed in that kind of counterculture rock and roll and then the that that same group of people 10 years later or 15 years later or 20 years later were more drawn to the punk world. Yeah I think there's a lot of hardcore metal for sure yeah I think there's a lot of parallels between those two worlds right like it's me and my brother we're in this together we're family you know that type of thing where you know we're going out actively in groups together to socialized events whether it's a bike show or a concert but we know what we're doing we're going there together normally I mean depending on where you're from or the era but it was more my neighborhood versus the other neighborhood or my city versus your city so there was that whole bonding piece and essentially for lack of better term almost trauma bonding piece because of the violence and the stuff that came with it and I think there's a big overlap between that and motorcycle clubs for sure. So by the time you're a little bit older you're in a punk rock group yourself or hardcore group and you start touring and you start interacting with some other crews across the country and in some cases it doesn't it doesn't go well and there's some pretty compelling stuff in your book about interacting with the DMS crew and these are some dudes that are part of the hardcore scene on the east coast and there if you know about this kind of music like there's they have a reputation for being some pretty tough motherfuckers and can you tell us what like what for people that are unfamiliar with the subculture what does that mean DMS and can you talk to us about that environment. Yeah so you know each region in the country if not city but each region kind of had their own crew back in the day you know and DMS initially was the Doc Martin skinheads and then they've changed it a bunch of times since there but there were some of the original you know that OG bought New York New York City Hardcore where Boston had FSU which you know initially was fucked up and then Friends Stand United so there was these different cliques or crews around the country you know OBHC in Oakland and you know Unity and those guys in LA and then we were in Portland which was the Rose City Barber boys so we all kind of had our own little niche and all the crews were kind of known for different types of things but DMS was that like initial from the hardcore scene like you know they were involved in some of those really early initial bands that you know kind of had a huge influence in that hardcore scene so because they were in popular bands their name spread pretty quickly so if you like in some ways you might think that there's solidarity within this this kind of subculture because I think one thing that does unite them isn't is generally they're anti-racist but things are more complicated sometimes things can happen and then there's politics and I don't mean like ideological politics I mean like the different crews and so at one point you you and your group had a falling out with the DMS is that correct yeah you know egos play a big role on that and I think that's something we see replicated in the biker world too right when we start talking about territory and stuff like that and and ego plays a big role and essentially you know I was in a band and I was touring and you know I was a younger kid so I actually really was looking up to the DMS guys those bands were bands I was really you know super into I was a big fan of but you know as you grow and you age and you start earning your own reputation you know that a gang's name can only go so far and we had we had a falling out and they were making a lot of threats towards me and my crew and you know that might have it might have it might have made a point if it was going to be in New York but they were making these threats and then they thought they were going to come into my area which was a town that you know I grew up in which were my people in my hometown and that's when things kind of kind of turned into the falling out. Yeah I encourage people to check out the book again you could read more about that. Back to the hardcore so like I mean when I think of like DMS I think of like agnostic front and some of those New York hardcore bands that I was a fan of and you said growing up you were one of the reasons why you were attracted to this music was I think it was maybe your aunt or someone like that exposed you to some of the real OG punk rock and you mentioned specifically the clash and the sex pistols and Scott and I like to talk about music a lot were big music fans. Can you name any of the other bands that you were into as you know during this time period? You know one of the very first bands she would play for me she'd wake me up to one step beyond by madness in the morning that'd be like our morning you know and then I super you know the clash I like to the clash probably more than the sex pistols or I do like to clash more in the sex pistols. She was a big Ramones fan so I got a lot of into that so I was really getting into you know the damned a lot of those early bands but you know when no one else in my circle or you know young kids we didn't know what that stuff was and I think you know when it started was kind of in that era where it was starting to get repopular again with bands like Rancid that were like covering the clash sound essentially and that's what really started drawing me in is that you know I was like hey this reminds me of the bands that my aunt would play for me these are these cool punk bands but it was awesome or new and relevant so I you know that started getting to Rancid and bouncing souls and that kind of whole era of stuff and then you know once you're in it man I you know I was I was I was deep in it by then listening to you know I'm from Portland so the big bands Poison Idea and Defiance were all huge you know around that era we're starting to get into the unseen and global threat and the guys from Boston so they're you know depending on the on the city you're in there was all these kind of like new resurgence of street punk. Yeah so I know we're geeking out here but the clash the guns of Brixton and Charlie don't serve my two favorite songs you know those ones. Yeah yeah and there's some some crossover to that different once you get to the world too but yes no that's right in the guns of Brixton I mean that's that's a gangsta when you read the lyrics to that the clash they were like white working class dudes and they you know talking about battling with the cops. The clash for one of those early like really political bands really that you know it's kind of masked in punk rock and and because they're a little more mainstream I think they kind of got away with it but was still very focused on politics and you know that kind of anti-establishment working class ethos. Yeah so eventually you know you you transition into the things are getting pretty pretty hot with the hardcore scene and there's some other things going on in your life that you decide to to make a move but you're still a tough guy you know a hellraiser so you start to become interested in the outlaw biker club scene because you know you're a motorcycle enthusiast you already have this reputation as a tough guy from the punk rock and hardcore scenes. What first was like your your inclination to that maybe try the outlaw biker scene rather than the hardcore scene? You know Portland was a little different because the clubs that were very old school you know the dominant club there's the gypsy jokers and so that kind of era that was still kind of the beer bell lead leather clad biker right and and so you know it wasn't something I initially looked at and said oh I want to be a part of that. It wasn't till I met I mean there were some clubs in town I'd met and we talked about I think in the last podcast a little bit about the outsiders and kind of learning those old school politics but you know I've said it before as you know I'm looking around this room of these old school bikers and I'm thinking I don't have a lot in common with these guys other than the motorcycle itself. What really sucked me in is when I met the Vagos. The Vagos had a lot of younger guys a lot of skateboarders punk rockers in fact the band Seven Seconds meant their guitar player Bobby he I ended up bringing him in the Vagos he was an active Vago for a long time so we had a lot of this overlap of like guys that came from that punk rock scene and so once I kind of found out found that you know it's really kind of like seemed like oh this is the connection this seems the way it's supposed to be because you know some of those dms guys went into the angels a lot of fsu went into the outlaws was kind of like that regional you're from the hardcore punk rock scene you were going to go to whatever club big club was in your area. Yeah it's interesting that to read about that transition too because I want to talk to you about asking about like like stereotypes of bikers because again most of these dudes from from the hardcore scene usually anti-racist you know politically charged and there is this kind of image I think of at least one somewhat one percent of clubs maybe not the Mongols but some of the other og clubs that these are like exclusive white if not you know white supremacist viewpoint so your your autobiography and your experience is really challenged that not to say that that doesn't exist in some elements of that world but your autobiography really challenges that can you talk about that yeah I mean it was still you know a pretty big paradigm shift for me to go from hey the side of ss bolts and swastikas were fighting to being in a club where that shock value and that stuff was so inherent and so deep in biker culture and and you know for you guys know this because you study biker culture and stuff you know a lot of that his history is in the shock value and the anti-establishment kind of the pushback but there's also you know a heavy recruitment of people that just like from my life came from the hardcore scene that came there's a group you know large groups that came from the neo-nazi scene and they brought those images with them too I think one of the big shifts is especially the angels after the 70s and 80s is they got this real big push from the influence of prison gangs and I think then we saw that start playing a role so it kind of depended which club you were in or who you were around um about that type of stuff you know I think the imagery is still really popular in that in that club life I mean it's gotten less but it's still but as far as actual ideologies are quite a bit different you know I mean I could speak on the half of the Mongols because we're you know pretty much a Hispanic and white club um but you know a lot of clubs have different rules when it comes to that stuff but as far as like overt racism or stuff you would think of because of those symbols it wasn't like that I mean even that that I'm not justifying it at all but even the sex pistol who were talking about old school punk rock you know they were infamous for they would they would have used the swastika sometimes and um and obviously I think that was in poor taste and that was a bad decision but they they weren't ideologically inclined toward that they it was to your point of shock value they were trying to piss people off it was the counterculture aspect of it of we don't want you to like us anyways you know that was that's the mindset behind it right right so um um but speaking of like that the subculture and you know first for those of us who are outsiders trying to understand the subculture you give a definition of of one percenter clubs in in your book that I think is interesting um because and you can people can go back and listen to other episode where Moose gets into the more the details about his experience with the vah goes and things like that so I'm you know I'm trying to bring up other other things here in the book um but there's a standard definition for one percenters within law enforcement and that's that one percenter clubs are basically organized crime groups um but that's not your definition can you can you talk about share that with us based on your experiences yeah I know you know this is one of those things where probably everyone in that world has a different idea on what it means I think to me to boil it down in the simplest in this day and age is the one percenter club is the dominant club in that area that's that's the club that's controlling that state or the or the region those that's the club that the other clubs are you know needing that are running the COC or needing permission so for me the one percenter club those like the top tier clubs that are in charge of those regions now you know as far as where that term came from and what law enforcement says I understand all that but you know in the grand scheme of things all that patch means at this point is kind of who's in control of that area but me can I can I ask you a question on how that particular how do you reconcile that particular uh definition with what we have here in Detroit because it's it's kind of unique where the outlaws are the name brand and they're the they're the kind of like um international corporate um like the big or whatever yeah so they have a big presence and Taco Bowman being from Detroit and moving the see the power from Illinois to Detroit from the early 80s to about 2000 so Detroit's known as an outlaw town nationally but locally the highwaymen which is a much smaller group overall has considerable more um uh uh membership in Michigan as a whole than the outlaws do they don't like each other they've never really been at war with each other per se I don't think uh but I've always kind of when people ask me about microculture in Detroit I always feel like I gotta explain it um it's it doesn't necessarily fit like other cities might you agree with that yeah for sure and and dominance kind of probably for lack of better term really so you know the outlaws dominant as far as the region might as likely run by them and they're the international club but a lot of there's still a lot of old school clubs have been for a long time like I mentioned the gypsy jokers that are in control of that area and when I say in control you know we're not talking organized organized crime I'm not talking about that type of control I just mean when other clubs want to start that's who they ask permission from those are kind of the clubs that are organizing all the other motorcycle clubs so you know in a club like the highwaymen and they've been there for so long and they're they're a Detroit club they were founded in Detroit so they would still technically be the dominant Detroit club just they might not be nationally dominant um so there's kind of different layers to it you know and that's what the biker stuff it gets a little more challenging because like you said it's almost like there's the big name brands and then there's the old school ones that have been there forever that don't have a lot of numbers but they they're well respected and they're not going anywhere and then in Detroit you also have it split down between east and west where highwaymen founded on the west side west side club doesn't really have much or any of a presence on the east side the outlaws dominate east side but do have a small presence on the west side so it's I know I'm going down on my own little rabbit hole here about you know where we come from but right I don't have to say without more information but I will say from my experience a lot of what I've seen there spending the I've seen the outlaws do it a lot is a lot of those times on those clubs end up being in the same area they whether they end up having beef or not they decide that hey both clubs are gonna stay they likely drop some sort of contract or have some sort of agreement and it's highly likely that they agreed to sticking to one when you get this side of town I get that side of town or you guys go to these bars and we'll go to these bars and that's pretty common when it comes to coexistence um because you know that's gonna limit the stepping on toes and the ego that goes with it and and Benny you can hit the siren here um but just for like an anecdote that that I think piggybacks off what mutes has said I might have told this on the show before but maybe now I'll throw it out here now and and do my normal and name-dropping self be my normal name dropping myself name-dropping self but I went to Frank the bomb uh his funeral I don't it was five six years ago and uh Frank the bomb was the Detroit mobster that was the conduit to the biker world and he could go into any biker clubhouse in Detroit and they roll up the red carpet for him and his birthday parties used to be the only place that all those guys could be in the same room and you know cables weren't flying and uh I remember pulling up to the to the funeral home and there were like four different groups it was like vigilantes outlaws highwaymen and maybe it was uh iron coffins or renegades I don't remember but they all like had different parts of the funeral home property like they like it was like broken out into like four different regions of the funeral home and you're getting to see play out what happens nationally or statewide you're getting to see in a small area but that's exactly representation is essentially stick to your side of the sandbox yeah I want to ask you about that another conceptual question here one of the I think it's on page 61 it's really like a major thesis in your chapter that territory is extremely important and I want to ask that because again from what you would hear from law enforcement they would say well yes it's important because they want to control drug turf or extortion or gambling or whatever it is um you obviously are you'll push back against that narrative so why I mean help us understand like why why is that important like why can't the hell's angels and the and the and the outlaws just you know you know ride in the same city and coexist what what's going on there with this kind of like tribal politics and well I think you hit it on the nail and then you went the tribal piece to it I think like we were just talking about with the highwaymen who's been there the longest I think you know ego plays a huge role in this hey we were here first hey that's our bar that type of thing and you know there's so much pushback the smaller club that's well it's been there forever with the big reputation has to fight back against the well-known corporate club essentially so I think that plays a way bigger piece than any sort of illegal organized crime crime stuff at this day and age I mean I wasn't around long enough to ever say that you know that back then maybe it used to be over drug money or whatever I mean I doubt it but that wasn't my era but I know in my era that's definitely was never the issue it's it's ego it's always been ego for instance if you look at Chicago you know outlaws this is our area no one else is going to come in here and and then it happened with the angels and I think what history is proven though and I think maybe this is why more and more clubs are expanding all over the country is I think history is proven at this point that every club is going everywhere you know if it used to be a handshake or whatever or there's agreements and they wouldn't go you know those are still respected in some areas but overall say say that the angels push in somewhere and the outlaws tell them not to and then the models do or maybe then the pagans do or the band eat someone else is going to do it you know and so at this point I think it's almost like people are in all these bigger clubs are almost in a rush to get there because I think those fences have kind of come down yeah there's some really it's some interesting insight into your book and you can tell me if I if I have this correct because it can go it can cut both ways so I noticed there's some there's some areas in your book where you say that actually the rank and file like you were getting along with rank and file outlaws and bandidos and then a judgment can come from above a political judgment then that now puts you in an awkward position because the presidents aren't getting along and and then that trickles down but then I also noticed like it can cut the other way where there's some beef between the rank and file but then the president tells everyone I don't care we're gonna we have to keep it cool with this other club and then there's some frustration so okay cut either way can you can you comment on those situations yeah absolutely so I mean that that's when we get into the politics of the things right and I guess that's the point of having an organized structure in a club every club structured a little different I know the Mongols it's a top-down leadership so if the national p whoever it is at the time says hey hands off better not get caught putting hands on any of those clubs or you know there's gonna be repercussions you know and if it's something local and and feelings are heard or maybe it's an ego battle and it's a minor skirmish then that might get squashed but a lot of times it goes to the table and they discuss pros and cons and for the most part coexistence is best for everybody right I mean there's at the end of the day now I wish that's really how it played out but that would be the idea but yeah and then there's positions like I mean you know mine is at mine example since we're talking about kind of the story my book is an amazing relationship with the outlaws my whole time in the club I did the majority of the sit-downs with those guys a lot of them came from FSU like I said so we had shared history from all that scene and it's some very very close friends and one of the things I told them when I moved to Illinois is that I had no interest in ever starting a Chicago chapter now I never shot myself in the foot and said I wouldn't but I said I have no interest in it and I gave my word to numerous people that I respect that I would never you know I would no interest in starting a chapter and then at one point national leadership said hey Moots we're starting a chapter in Chicago what do you do you're you know when there's a leadership structure like that you know I voiced my opinion I you know I voted a different way voiced my opinion but when the call was made well you're in this club you got to back your club's decision your club's calls and now we're burning bridges and you know people are upset so it definitely you know you've anytime you're in something like that a club gang whatever you got to think well it's the greatest good or the greater good and you have to follow the structure and the leadership yeah you you really were putting these awkward situations and also you know not only in Illinois but but I know I noticed in in Oregon there was an issue with a smaller club where you assured them that the Mongols weren't going to start up a chapter near them I can't remember the name of the Portland we were the Portland rocker out of respect speed and outsiders right and I had made an agreement and we all shook hands we were allowed to have a chapter in the area we just wasn't we weren't going to call it Portland right okay I moved out of the state and someone else became in charge of that state and decided that my agreement they didn't agree with and they went back on it and that's kind of the frustration in the biker world it is and I you guys have seen it you've been following this stuff for a long time how often leadership rolls over then you want to go well how long are these agreements going to be for because my agreement was a handshake deal between friends versus this new guy might say well I don't care I don't see the interest in that look at the pagans no just saying look at Conan in Conan Richter Keith Richter the pagans boss the one who's making all the waves no pun intended these last five years you know he took power and what's you know I've heard the term that both law enforcement and guys in the club said to me like a bloodless coup we're like he didn't kill the guy that preceded him but the guy didn't leave voluntarily uh Michael Trone who uh was basically pushed out in 2017 and Conan takes over and like the entire operation the entire organization then begins being molded in Richter's image and it goes from a club that's totally fine with having Pennsylvania, Virginia, West Virginia, Maryland and part of New York and six years six seven years later they're like we want the whole country because it wasn't wasn't much different than when Doc Cavasso started doing the same thing you know which you know that's what brought me into the club is because he was on I came from the Vagos which traditionally wouldn't been allowed to patch over and and I will say I don't remember if we talked about it before at the time but the Vagos weren't considered one percenter club at the time I was in and they weren't as big as they are now um so it's some comments that take that you know with that no disrespect but that step up you know what would happen but now that they're more of a parallel club that wouldn't have happened but because of the doc Cavasso's recruitment drive not much different than Cunnan's you know guys like I like guys like me would be able to come in and start in a new area and you know I started in Oregon where there was no other Mongols in the entire state um there was an agreement there with the Jokers that no other major one percenter club was going to be in that state um and guys like us came in and challenged those old agreements um which you know I mean sorry it is what it is but that's what happened and um and I think that really starts you know people start seeing that that oh this club did it or that club did it and then more and more clubs start pushing through I think you know I can't speak on behalf of a lot of other clubs because everyone's run different but you know the Mongols are still very democratic and voted so before you move into an area the club's still going to vote on it as a whole but if you get in those areas uh where like you said that with Cunnan or whatever else in it and a piece as here we are well that's where you're going to be. Jimmy it's interesting looking again making it kind of a little bit more local for us the outlaws have been the you know the dominant midwestern club you know for time of memorial um they went down and took over a lot of Florida which is less the case now because of some other things I've written about but you've never seen the outlaws in the 50 60 years of their existence or at least this versions existence I know that the outlaws like to say that they were founded in the 30s uh but you've never seen the outlaws try to push into southwest or west or pacific northwest am I am I right? For the most part yes and and from again that's just from what I've seen you know over the years is they are pretty strict about how they start new chapters and they won't jump a chapter they won't start a state somewhere where they don't have so they're slowly gonna move so they they have been pushing west from what I've seen you know they're getting bigger their Oklahoma area they were into Colorado so they have pushed west but they kind of do a chapter by a time so that they're not just jumping into a brand new state or being fresh like some of those other clubs so as I'm thinking about it now it's it's kind of playing in my head I know they started the Oklahoma chapter in 77 so that was pretty west for for that group in 77 yeah and then you know they got into Colorado which I think they I don't know if they still have chapters there or not but I know they did um and then I'm honestly I'm a little out of the loop on where they're at now but I know you know I had to heard they'd pushed into northern Texas I don't know if that's true or not but you know I know I know that they have an arrangement the banditos down in Texas yes we've all heard the agreements I just don't know if it's for sure there or not but so they're expanding as well I've just heard from guys that are some of my sources that have told me that they can for a while some of these guys were going down there for jobs like they had nothing to do with yeah and that's really common motorcycle stuff and they would be like when we go down there we could never wear our outlaw gear and they're like at some point in the last year or two they're like we can go down there and wear it now yeah and that that's pretty common every state has kind of different rules depending on who's there and then depending on the relationships between those clubs there too you know if those two clubs are being cool at the time then it's probably not a problem and if they're not it's not going to happen so it kind of you know those things are in flux another thing I wanted to ask uh much about which is which is in in your book a lot here again uh please check it out everyone the ride of my life um as you get so you you you you go from the vahgos to the mongols you can people can listen to our other episode and and find out more about that but it seems like when you're in the mongols man like every every corner it's like you know you're in california you're in nevada and you're you're hanging with different different you know chapters and it seems like every corner there's a there's a an informant that you're running into that you obviously you don't know at the time in some cases like high-ranking dudes who are like you know informants i mean i'm reading this and i'm like fuck man like you can't even like you know you can't take two steps about bumping into an informant in this world can you you talk about that yeah i mean a part of it was the time that i was coming around because it was operation black rain so they were you know there was atf agents and they were as there were agents in there they were turning people into informants um so i think that was probably more common um or for that area or for that time but just like in oregon i you know i started in oregon and you know anytime someone starts a new chapter you were looking for new members and law enforcement knows that and that's you know they'll start trying to get the informants in there and and we've seen um with some of these other big clubs we're talking about that have been growing and and growth and then we see these raids of people get hit and it's like more and more common that this big confidential informants is a big part of law enforcement's push back against motorcycle clubs and i think it's all too common um and but i said more and more my piece it was because of black rain was a big part in that for sure because once black rain hit and you know and i started getting a hand down and then sentences started getting wrapped up a lot of those guys who are no longer around are no longer members of the club but it was it's interesting to read in your in your book about because you were you admit that you were um kind of green when it comes to like the the informant game game so like so like dudes would ask you like weird questions like just like is anyone tearing you know like a piece and and and wherever you were i think it was organ right like you weren't allowed to have concealed weapons and so you're kind of like why the fuck is this guy asking me this this kind of shit and so if you talk to us about like when you when you're like your radar starts to go on that it's almost kind of embarrassing looking back now that didn't notice these red flags but you know i'm in my mid 20s i'm coming from the punk rock world and you know what i knew of of informants i mean i knew about undercover cops right i mean i didn't i knew that that was what they would try and do i was really really naive to what a paid confidential informant was and the two that were in the chapter that i was in initially um you know i when i got into leadership i banned methamphetamine and you couldn't sell drugs and you know the two informants were actually addicted to meth and and we had taken them to rehab to get them clean to try and be good brothers for them all the while they're getting paid to tell them to make stuff up so i missed a lot of that because in my head i'm like well this guy can't be working for the cops he's doing the dope something illegal yeah and and they were doing more illegal stuff than anyone in it and what what's kind of crazy to think is they were actually even pushing a lot of the illegal stuff when when we were in Oregon and the other clubs in iguanas there are some tense moments and it was the informants that were out trying to get to pick fights with these other clubs or like i said doing doing drugs and and the one of the ones you reference that's in my book is they kept trying to talk us in as a chapter into stealing motorcycles and then selling it mother money for chat you know as the chapter because i mean we all know why they were trying to do that um but you know some of those things we were just i mean obviously we shut it down immediately because the red flag and one of them was even a tf agent in black rain and that's when he was asking about people carrying firearms or you know going with them in a in a deal he would say and you know trying to offer people easy money um and thankfully you know we said no to that stuff but you know what brought me in the motorcycle club world was my love for motorcycles and then obviously you know i would tell people if i was ever gonna get in anything any trouble for anything i'd be defending my brothers or my club because you know i was into violence then and i fought a lot but there was no like big massive criminal conspiracy going on and so when these guys couldn't see that they would try and make it you know there's a really interesting part in your book where you're you're actually you know taking college classes i think this might have been the black rain investigation but you could correct me if i'm wrong i might chronology might be off and if they'll look back at my notes but there's actually a narrative within federal law enforcement and within the media that mooch is a is a crime boss but the the reality is he's he's literally he had to move back in with his parents if you don't mind me saying living in your parents basement right because you were you were working odd jobs and didn't have a lot of cash and so you were going to college and so you're studying for exams living in your parents basement and i just i laugh because i'm not laughing that you had to go through that but but the irony right like like boy if you're a crime boss that ain't very good not a very good crime boss this is no no bullshit when black rain happened and all the mob was in Oregon got raided you know my brother was yelling you know what are you what's that what's on the warrant what are you raiding us for and they were trying to make it sound like we were some big drug kingpins and my brother goes why don't you open my fridge and see if you look like i'm living like i'm a drug dealer you know right that's what i mean like you you weren't you guys weren't bowing out man you were studying for exams and and living in the basement so um it just kind of i couldn't help but find it um you know not that you had to go through that but you know there but there's other instances of i would say abuse of police power abuse of police power where the um i really think um violated your civil liberties and you can find out more about this in the book but you're you don't come off as jaded though and i think it it's interesting for you for people to look at that because you're a matter of fact but at the same time um you were able to move on with your life and if you just i mean walk us through that because i think you would have every right to be really fucking pissed off about about what they what they put you through one you know again you know being a naive younger kid obviously didn't trust law enforcement but i also wanted to believe to some degree that they wouldn't just blatantly lie to you know what i mean um but then i saw it firsthand in my trial you know that blatant lies um i saw that you know once i got and was you know not getting in trouble and i was going back to school and you know i was doing internships and they were still trying to get me fired for my internships um i mean and to me it almost turned like i was i was their rival gang member at this point you know they were showing up and trying to intimidate me trying to get me thrown out of my jobs to me i couldn't train at different gyms that we were training at um so yeah i think it could have made me pretty jaded i think one of the things that helped that was a my career i work in social work and sometimes i do meet with probation officers that actually you know that are caring good people um once i really got into martial arts i met some law enforcement officers that are actually in law enforcement because they want to make a difference in their community um but i think you know that the caveat to that is the specialized police officers the ones that are in the you know outlaw motorcycle gang investigators unit and you know they it's more like us versus them instead of you know what's just yeah and they and i think we talked about this the last time they they get committed to a worldview or a paradigm that this is the way it is and there's no amount of intel that's going to get them to change or evidence that's going to get them to change their tunnel it's almost funny to think of because if they want to buy the narrative that every one percenter is because it's some criminal organization they're out through this massive criminal stuff while wearing a patch of being under investigation and then they're really not costing that many people doing that so it either they're all doing it you're terrible at your job or there's not that many people really doing it but i mean i know that's a very simple simplified version of it um but i mean it's true that's kind of i mean at least that's the way i look at it and is in your text you mentioned that actually the the feds blamed you for shutting down black rain right that you outed you out of the informant um so it's actually in the paperwork they blame you for it i guess it's a blame uh because they would have wanted to continue it can you can you talk about that yeah so you know i was in san diego at the time i was on run from oregon because i was on probation for those other charges and and a part of my stipulation probation was that i couldn't affiliate with the models so i absconded and moved to san diego knowing they weren't going to extradite me onto mr. meaner warrants um and black rain was was wrapping up this was a full undercover atf agent and he was going around asking models if if they would participate he was going to be doing a drug deal and wanted armed people there to protect this drug deal now what it turned out to be was an undercover agent selling fake drugs to another undercover agent the whole thing was a show but they were busting guys for carrying firearms and facilitation of a drug deal and here's a guy i don't know he pulls me aside one day i met him when he was a hanging around once um and he said he was going to be up in oregon visiting and i said oh cool you know what part and he said well you jean or portland well that's where we had a chapter but there were those places are you know 100 miles apart um so odd first red flag didn't know where he was going to be at and i was you know typical brotherhood stuff hey anything you need let me know when you're up there and he goes well yeah actually you know i could use some guys you got guys that carry and i said you know what man no we don't and i started to walk off and he goes man i'm talking kilos bro he said he would give me two hundred dollars per member and he would pay me or whatever i think was two thousand it was a bunch of money because i'd give it to you up front right now and then you can pay them to stand there to protect me in this drug deal and so i obviously went and told leadership and by then they'd been hearing this because he actually had been doing it so they'd heard about it by enough times so then at hitman's funeral it came up again he had said something to my twin brother about it and by then that was the vote was you know what we've been hearing this too many times we're gonna throw this dude out and i'm sure somehow they're within the amount of formats that are involved he found out so he didn't show up he didn't go from the funeral home to the burial site and then two days later the raids hit and so i guess that they had to wrap it up earlier than expected because finally finally pulled the covers on them did you want to jump in scott it looked like you were no i'm fat i'm this is i'm like riveted by mooch's uh story in life yeah there's a lot of paperwork on that and then um there's a book out i think it was called out bad that it got that aging rebel guy i don't know if you guys ever followed age or rebels yeah but he dies and he died he did yeah but yeah i was in contact with him a little bit at the end that section's in the book where he pulls it straight out of the paperwork where it said that due to a mongrel named mooch pulling detective so-and-so's or agent so-and-so's covers they had up the raids and get their arrest warrants and do their raids quicker he was an outlaw who's that aging rebel i don't think he was no he wasn't no maybe i'm confusing him with somebody else he was he was an old he was just an old school motorcycle rider that covered all those kind of crime stories and and wrote stuff and he was he got really close to the mongrels the end just because he was one of the ones covering all that black rain stuff maybe i had an official affiliation with maybe i can fly i could be conflating i remember talking to him about uh outlaws president confirming with aging rebel that the outlaws president had died and maybe i'm just conflating that i was going to ask him about an outlaw that he confirmed for me he was pretty tied into the scene because you know he was he was he ran one of the first news sites on the website that was really trying to post the truth about what the government was doing against motorcycle clubs and he would do it based off paperwork it wasn't conspiracy the only some of some of this stuff got out there but most of it was all factual and it was like the one place to go to read what was really going on and and he instead of you know saying oh this is happening the outlaws or this happened the mongrels he would tie it together to show why it's happening to both these clubs and so he played a pretty big role in kind of opening people's eyes to what the law enforcement narrative was so you know you you you relocate to Illinois and you talk about that in our other episode and it's in the book you you had personal reasons you know in terms of uh you know your relationship and furthering your education you guys had your own reasons to go there but you um you do you do um continue to be a member of the mongrels there and initially things seem pretty copacetic with the outlaws and um you're getting along with them and then again back to like the politics comes up where there's there's a shift where now it seems like the the leadership there um is against coexisting with the mongrels and this is sort of like the the beginning of the end where um there's some tensions there and then there's some politics within your own club um so um I know I know you have another obligation so we don't have a lot of time left but can you talk to us a little bit I mean people can read the book but a little bit about like the the politics in Illinois with the outlaws and how things started to to get tense well yeah like we had started this um interview off you know that that they started here it was their area um and so and I was moving out here and essentially just to retire initially it was in fact put picked a place where there wasn't mongrels at the time um and and I had given them my word that I wasn't out here to start chapters now again I didn't say I wasn't going to but I was not my goal that wasn't why I was here um and and they treated me amazing man I mean that that was invited to all their parties their runs we spent a lot of time together we rode around together um by then I was already in national leadership so I was doing a lot of sit-downs with their national leadership so you know they were vouching for me and and um you know it's really getting to know all the local guys and spending a lot of time with them and when we first started the mongrels out here a lot of the guys actually lived on the Illinois side of the border but we called it st. Louis had a respect for them um so we kind of were doing what we could to coexist and then you know nationally some politics had changed uh the chicago things started obviously was a big push in that as well and then things kind of started to get a little more dangerous and fall apart mooch did you also have some guys that were like in uh northwest indiana yeah so when I moved out here there was one Crawfordsville area chapter in indiana um and then Kansas City had a couple members left for people go ahead just for people that don't understand or I shouldn't say don't understand but that that aren't from the midwest because I didn't know this until I lived in Chicago northwest indiana you know it's similar to like cherry hill new jersey where it's like cherry hill is like a suburb of philadelphia even though it's in new jersey northwest indiana you can be in gary indiana and get in your car and be in Chicago in like 15 minutes and I think that's something that was missed or maybe or like you said most people don't know is out of respect again there were several Mongols in Chicago for many many years but they were going they were out of the the lake county the gary indiana which is again it's like a sub it's almost like a suburb it's I know it's a different state but when you leave gary indiana you're you're not like in some part of illinois you go from gary indiana right to the south side of and I think you know I think there's that misconception about that I remember reading some articles in the paper or some other podcasters had made some comments like oh these guys from california are moving into Chicago and they don't understand the local politics but these are local guys when when the Mongols expand I mean sure I moved out here but I didn't talk other people and move out here and start chapters with me these guys that join no matter what club it is pagans or anyone they're local guys and these and in Chicago there was Mongols there for several years but they were running out of the gary indiana chapter but again you know ego and people are stepping on each other's toes and I won't even say he's right and wrong in that aspect that is no that's what happened and headbutted started happening again and nationally things started changing and then like you said some internal Mongol politics you know things just kind of started unraveling I would say that like that particular region meaning Chicago and and the outlaws is uh you know probably they have more of a territorial obsession with that area than maybe any other club besides the angels in california because the outlaws be like this is where it all started for everybody and I would say to that narrative because I agree I agree and I do see why people saw that as a direct slap in the face and I won't even get in the politics of it but I could get that but I would also say um okay Mongols and outlaws were friends at the time we're supposed to be good friends and good neighbors and everyone at the time was not friends with the Hell's Angels and they're here too so why would you tell your enemies they can be there and not your friends and I'll we can leave it at that without getting too deep into it but at least that was my mindset at the time do the Hell's Angels have Hell's Angels chapters or were they support clubs Chicago now they've had they've been in Chicago for a very long time since that old Brockford area around there but with that whole you know after that what was the Hell's Henshman that patched over yeah but they're actually I'm showing that I'm mine spots in my reporting but there are Chicago Hell's Angels there are actual Hell's Angels and yeah I mean there was there was some there was some bad shit that went down but no I know about all no I know about all that I've written about that but I don't know why and and I guess again I'm conflating things in my head I thought after all that the Hell's Angels were kind of like pushed out of Chicago and they might have had some support clubs but you're seeing there's Hell's Angels chapters active in the city of Chicago yeah they direct people chapter in there they probably still do if you follow like Mel Chansey and some of these big name guys that have gotten out those are Chicago Hell's Angels yeah I've talked to I had a correspondence with Mel he's a busy guy but hopefully we can get him on the podcast at some point yeah so um well another thing I want to ask much as we're starting to to wind down um you know people can get again check out the book and find out more about like so what what happens politically within the Mongols that the mooch ends up getting pushed out but you said something really interesting and you could tell the frustration on your part because you love being a part of the Mongols you love the subculture but you say in there I think your your term the way you framed it was I didn't join a biker club to become a fucking politician and and as you assumed leadership positions you felt like you were starting to become more of a politician and less and less an outlaw biker and so you could tell that you were starting to get frustrated and eventually it it goes it goes bad in the sense of you know that that you are out basically um from from from club politics and then had to leave all together so if you wanted to comment on that I mean you don't have to get to the details people can can read the text but that overall kind of like you didn't want to be a politician anymore yeah when I joined the club um a guy that I respected still do to this day but we're an old school mongol and I kind of asked him like you know I I think people don't understand how how many people leave motorcycle clubs so often I mean how many people join and quit um and so I you know I kind of asked him about what's the trick how people stay less longevity and he said stay out of the politics stay out of politics and for years I did right like I'm in Oregon so why would LA politics affect me as long as my chapter is being supported and we're getting along but the caveat to that too is you know you start getting a higher position in the club you're a lot more infested in the club so now I'm starting chapters in different states so I'm interested in making sure they're doing okay or I start you know the Raider Support Club that I had started you know I had all these things I was invested in and so then I almost you know if you saw something that you didn't agree with you'd want to speak up on it or protect them or or whatever and then you're almost roped it I mean that that point you're stuck in the politics of it so it's kind of this weird push-pull where you don't want to get involved in politics but if you really love your club that much you can't help who's going to sit silent when something's happening you don't agree with yeah yeah and it's um you know people can um can find out more about the details but you it seems like right now you're good with where you're at in life like you know you also had some health issues that people can read about and you've really um turned things around and would you say that um not necessarily that that if you're happy it went down the way it did but but you're you're happy where you're at with your life not being in the club anymore 100 man I you know there's some guys I miss I wish that um my status would be cleared up and the fact that I'd love to be able to talk to some of the some of the guys that you know I was good friends with outside of that man I don't regret a thing I had a great time in that club it was honestly I know it might be funny sounding to people that don't know much about that lifestyle but I had a great time amazing memories traveled the country on a motorcycle with some of my best friends but I also don't regret don't regret it I'm happy to have moved forward and be where I'm at today for sure so uh Bernie any last questions before we this was epic man I yeah these are the kind of episodes that I just you know I always want to set these kind of episodes up and sometimes you feel like you're setting them up and then it doesn't kind of like hit the way you want it to but mooch always comes through he's like uh yeah you know a great cleanup hitter that's going to come out and just clear the bases whenever there's dots on the pond I agree so how can more people find out about you mooch I know you had a podcast for a while but I don't think you're I was just talking about that the other day I just haven't done it in a while you know it was one of those things I do it when I feel like it um because I'm just kind of sharing my story and you know the you guys know from this that especially from the xbiker stuff is I'm not trying to get on there and explain a lot of club politics and stuff so it's just me sharing my story so sometimes I talk about my time in the band you know different things like that and so when I have stories stories to share I jump on there and put something out but um you know my books out I'd say that's the best one my instagram is og mooch um and I talk you know very I talk to anyone on there that hits me up I've never I don't think ever left anybody on red um so they follow me there and yeah that's pretty much the big stuff I push all right well thanks again mooch and we we encourage people to check out the book and we we appreciate your time thanks for your patience earlier and um I will I'll stay in touch mooch um you know I like to talk to you about music and uh so well I'll stay in touch with you brother and we appreciate your time and uh you know thanks for everyone for watching and listening to our show please subscribe and thanks to Scott and Benny they've been holding it down I you know I I no longer have the time to be on here full time but but Scott and Benny are still putting out you know a lot of content so uh you know thanks thanks to you guys for keeping this going and I'm calling for watching and listening I'm calling for all of og nation to get in those comments and tell everybody that we want Jimmy back as fast as he as fast as possible obviously we gotta respect Jimmy's uh academic uh you know uh career in academia but please get in those comments and tell everyone how much you miss Jimmy and you know I tell everyone uh off air on air you know Jimmy just isn't my partner in this he's like my best friend he's my brother I I miss doing these kind of episodes with him getting to come back with him and mooch together it's like the dream come true so get in those comments and tell everyone how much uh you know love seeing Jimmy back and hopefully one day soon he'll be uh joining us back on a more consistent basis well thanks Bernie thanks mooch I'll stay in touch we'll see you guys og podcast we're out out