 Welcome to Finding Your Piece of the Rock on ThinkTech Hawaii. I'm your host, Abley. I have been a licensed real estate agent since 1973. I'm the owner of Century 21 Iproperies, Hawaii, and work with close to 100 wonderful agents in real estate sales. I started Abley seminars in 1980. I have taught over 10,000 students to get their real estate licenses and taught continuing education classes for licensees to renew their license every two years. Our show is dedicated to helping buyers and sellers understand the process involved in a real estate transaction. Our special guests will talk about legal issues, escrow, title, getting a loan, and today we're going to talk about surveys and home inspections, insurance, contracts, rules and trust, and much, much more. So this handsome young man that you see is joining us is Alvin Alimbuyogun, and I can't even pronounce the name correctly, but he'll correct us again. But we're so grateful to have Alvin. He's a second generation surveyor, and I've known his father for decades. So Alvin, thank you for being with us today. No problem. Thank you. So it's Alvin Alimbuyogun. The you is a little silent there. All right. So Alvin, tell us about your life, your family, your education, your background, and your life as a son of a surveyor. Right. So I was born and raised on the island of Oahu. My dad has been, he's been surveying since 1999 privately. And before that, he was working with the state as a surveyor for 10 years. So he's been surveying for over 40 years, about almost 40 years. He was through his work, he was able to send me to a mid-pack where I graduated from in 2008. And then also pay for my college education. And I was able to graduate from UH in five years where I graduated in civil engineering. And then, yeah. And so, sorry, go ahead. Tell us more. All right. Yeah. So my mom has also been part of the business for the last 25 years helping my dad with the emails and stuff. So she's also corresponded with AbleLot. So that's how we know each other. Well, your mom, Nilia, is one of my students and also has her license with us. She recently got her real estate license. Yeah, that's correct. Great. So tell me, Alvin, how did you get started and why did you become interested becoming a surveyor? So the first couple years of college, I just didn't know a lot. Like a lot of kids, I don't know what to do. I was just going through life navigating it. And I've always helped my dad, whether it be in the office or going out in the field. So probably the last years of college, I was getting more into surveying with him. And then I was going out more often with him in the field and just learning more and more. And you know, I'm not bad at this. This is not bad. Initially, I didn't really care to actually look into it because it's like I don't want to do what my dad does. I don't know why. I just wanted to do whatever I wanted to do. But I was just figuring that out still. And just thinking about long life plan and stuff. This was the route that decided this best for me and my family. Great. So tell me, what's the educational experience requirements to be a surveyor? Because a lot of people don't know what's required to be a surveyor. It's not easy work. Right. So either you can go through four years of college and then you can take your fundamentals of surveying exam. And then once you finish your fundamentals, you can take your professional surveying license. So the fundamentals first and then usually it's two years of experience under a licensed surveyor. And then you could take your professional license. And then you have to take your state exam to finalize that license. So it's either that or go through 11 years of experience before you can take your fundamentals exam again if you didn't go to college. But if you didn't go to college, 11 years of experience, if you do go through college, just two years of experience and then you can take your professional license. And I understand that professional license test takes like eight hours or something around there? Yeah. So each part, the fundamentals is about eight hours. The professional part is about eight hours. And then the state license is about four hours. Holy macro. It's like being a doctor almost, not quite. Okay. So it does take a lot of work. Now let me ask you, when we're out on the road driving around, we usually see two guys, usually two guys or ladies and they have this fluorescent vest on and they have these sticks, right? And they're holding it and someone's doing measurements and stuff. Is that typically a surveyor most of the time? Yeah. So you usually see someone out with a tripod and then another person holding a rod and there'll be some kind of either a GPS or a, we call it a prism on top of it. So one person is usually taking notes and shooting whatever the guy with the rod is holding. And then that's how we're able to physically locate all the measurements and whatever we need, whatever we need to show to finish the survey. Okay. So what you're talking about is what they call field notes, like degrees, azimuths, feet, minutes and seconds, which I have no idea what I'm talking about. Yeah. Just angles and distances pretty much. Okay. And you got to draw that thing with the description. Yeah. Okay. I've read field notes. I go, holy mackerel, I have no idea what they're doing. I have great respect for surveyors. And there are too many of your surveyors. Are there anyway? Doesn't feel like it. I know the average age of a licensed surveyor is around 45 to 50 years old right now. So I don't know how interested a lot of younger people are, but it is interesting to try out. And I would encourage other people to go into land surveying. Okay. So what kind of surveys do you do? What kind of surveys are there? I mean, I understand there's a lot of different kinds of surveys that surveyors can do, but what's your specialty? So we specialize in whatever the real estate agents need to complete their contract, which is mostly staking or boundary surveys. Besides that, we do shoreline surveys, flood elevation surveys, topographic surveys. And then there's other types of surveys that our company typically doesn't do, which is like construction surveys, hydrographic surveys. There's all kinds of different types of surveys, not done in Hawaii either. So there's like mining surveyors. There's surveyors that just do things for locating crime scenes and stuff like that. Wow. Okay. So you mostly in residential then and commercial. Yes. Okay. Very good. And when you say topography surveys, you're talking about gradations of elevations on a piece of ground? Yes. So by the time it gets to the architect, they can use the work that we provide them and then they'll provide you with their architectural drawings that show the right elevation, right side elevation, left side elevation, front elevation. So we work together to bring that to the client. And really for a builder and an architect engineer, you absolutely need a topography survey. Yes. And then before it wasn't required too much if your land is pretty flat, but now there's a new requirement in Hawaii where even if it's just the ADU, you need a full topographical survey even if it's flat. Oh, wow. Okay. So now what's your main responsibility? So you got field workers that are out there doing what I call the labor work. What do you do with that field notes that your people give you and what's your job in the back? So I actually do everything from the front to the back. I go out to the field, I work in the office a little bit of everything. But after we collect the data, whatever information we need in the field, the deliverables are usually a map or an AutoCAD file, which like I mentioned, you can send to an architect or the map would be in a PDF where you can see a bird's eye view of what the property looks like just from above. Okay. Great. So let's say, tell me how the process works. Who orders a survey? So typically for a K2 survey, the real estate agent or sometimes the homeowner will also come to us and they'll ask for the survey. And then we'll look up their deeds, we'll look up whatever file plans associated, land court applications, maps, pretty much just to be able to find what their property looks like on paper and mathematically just with the angles and distances that we talked about. So we see what it looks like on paper, take it to the field and then go from there. And then like I said, we bring it back to the office and then we get that map and then in a for a K2, there's a report that goes along with that map that shows encroachments and you can see hopefully it's described clearly enough by us where certain improvements are along the boundary line. If they're crossing into your neighbor or you're crossing into the other neighbor and so on and so forth. Okay. We're going to talk about the minimum distances in a little while, but how long does it take from the time you get an order from somebody to say, hey, can you do the survey? And then how long does it take for you to get to the field, do the report and then bring it back and do the drawings and certify or do the final documentation. Right. So it really depends on the lot because not all lots are made the same. Nothing is a perfect square all the time. You have some lots out in Kaneohe or Waianae or it doesn't matter all over the island. There's a lot of irregular looking lots. So the more irregular it is, the harder it is for us, but it's all part of the job. Yeah. What do you think? Typical work a couple of weeks? All right. So I would say after we get the request, probably spend a day or so going over the notes and finding all the documents we need. And then another day for the field work, hopefully not the full day, so we could squeeze in a couple jobs on one day. Like I said, depending on the lot. And then usually two to three days for our map and report to come out. But if it's a bigger job than the K2, so if it's a topographic survey and Alta survey or something bigger, it's usually two to three weeks after. Okay. I really can't rush because you have your appointments booked. So it's not like you can drop something and go, okay, we can do it tomorrow morning. Because I know Jamie's done that on weekends for me because I'm a regular customer, but he usually doesn't do that. He just does it in sequence unless I bake him. Yeah. So yeah, we usually, we're usually booked two to three weeks ahead. But we try to accommodate everyone that comes to us, but sometimes, sometimes everything's really rushed and we would prefer not to rush, especially when you're dealing with something, you know, so much legalities involved, right? You don't want to mess up. So the difference between, yeah, you bet. So the difference between a K1 survey and a K2 survey that we see in the purchase contract is a K1 is you're just putting in pins, four, five, whatever. Yeah. But the K2 survey, you have two things going, right? You have the map itself, and you're showing the encroachments, encroacher or encroachee. And then you have a, what do you call it, a narrative saying, okay, point A has this, point B has this, and point C has this. So that's a lot more complicated and detailed, isn't it? Yes. So yeah, from just the staking, it takes a little bit more time. So the staking would pretty much be done the day of. And then we would double check it in the office and send send a certificate or a letter certifying that it was staked. Okay. But most properties with homes, they usually do a K2 survey around the K1 survey. Is that right? That's correct. Okay. So it takes a little more time. And of course, it's a little more expensive. Yeah. Okay. All right. Very good. Now, what's an encroachment? So an encroachment is just the measurement that would be over your property line. So if let's say I have a rock wall that I built along what I thought was my boundary line, the world's not perfect and contractors aren't perfect, people aren't perfect. So we might just build an inch or two over. So in our report, it might show how much feet, like 0.2, 0.1, 0.5, half a foot over the boundary line, the wall it actually is. And then it's not considered an encroachment in Hawaii unless it's over six inches, half a foot. Okay. So let's go over that. They call it the minimum structure discrepancy or something. So if it's residential, it's a half a foot. So people can't get it mistaken because it's not 0.6 feet, it's 0.5 feet, which is six inches. Correct. Now, if it's apartment, industrial business resort, then the allowable tolerance is what a foot is it? 0.25, I believe. Okay. 0.25 feet. And then how about for if it's agricultural or rural areas, I believe it's 0.75 feet? I think you're correct on that. Okay. And then conservation land is usually one and a half feet, is what I've been told. We don't work too much on conservation, so I'll have to double check on that one. You might know more about that than me, but... All right. Well, just so you know, I teach this stuff in my classes every month, but you deal mostly with residential, so it's half a foot, right? Yeah. So if the encroaching wall or fence is less than 0.5 feet or six inches, then the law says it's not deemed to be an encroachment. Is that correct? It's still, technically it is still an encroachment in our eyes, but to the law, you don't need an encroachment agreement written on it. It does not need to be reported, you know. Okay. But you point it out, like it's 0.5 feet or so whenever we see a report from a surveyor, we're always looking for 0.5 feet or less. Because if it's a point more, then we may have to get an encroachment agreement, whatever. Right? Yeah. Okay. Thank you. So now, what's an ALTA survey versus a regular survey? So that's for the American Land Title Association. And so for residential lots, usually they won't ask for an ALTA. Mostly commercial lots will ask for an ALTA. That's just up to the title company to decide whether they want it or not. And then that usually involves locating everything, including the perimeters. So we'll show encroachments, but we'll locate everything else, including the house, the roof lines, anything visible, all utilities, the sidewalks, overhead wires, everything, everything. So that takes more money then. Yeah. Those are typically a little bit more expensive. Okay. Because I've rarely done ALTA surveys except for commercial lenders. Yeah. Usually they'll want it. But some people say we don't need an ALTA survey, just give us a regular one. But so there's the ALTA survey, which is more for commercial properties. And then of course, the regular survey, which what we call the K2 survey for what would I call residences then? Yeah. Right. Okay. So now, how do you know, like, if you see a wall or fence, typically that's what's encroaching most of the time. But how do you know whose wall it is when something crosses over from one side to the other? So sometimes we'll ask the owners if they both know, if we're unsure. But what's a giveaway for us is usually how the fence corners or angles. If a fence usually isn't made, like just straight on one property, sometimes it'll usually connect to a gate or something. That'll be some kind of identifier for us that to us looks kind of obvious that it's made by one side versus the other. We look for those kinds of things, like the corners and the angles of it. Okay. So that's kind of almost a judgmental call based on what you see as to who has the bulk of that wall. Is it one side or the other side? Yeah. Okay. What do you do when the lot is really steep? Because I've asked your father to do a survey or a to the interest. We're not going. Yeah. So yeah, we'll recommend some other bigger companies. There are bigger companies that have more better technology than we do. Our instruments are usually reliant on the line of sight. So there are drone surveys and things of that nature. But if we can't physically send someone down there, then we'll typically put a point along the boundary line. And then the map that accompanies our survey is going to show how far back the actual line goes down a hill or something. And typically when we look down, there's usually, and it's if it's an inaccessible, it's usually on a lot that there's no one on the other side. So we pretty much know that no one's encroaching or have built anything over there. Okay. So what happens when two surveyors, one did one survey on one end and the other survey on the other side and sometimes they cross over, but sometimes they don't match. So what happens when two surveys don't exactly close out as they say? What do you do with the other survey? So typically we'll talk to the other survey first because they'll have done their homework and then we'll have done our homework and we'll compare notes. And sometimes surveying isn't exact science. We can see that the math says exactly 50 feet, but the world isn't perfect. And what we find on the ground and what we see with the walls and how the walls measure up and everything, it's not exactly 50 feet. So somewhere along the lines, people just didn't really get surveys and built their walls wherever they thought the lines were and then that's what usually causes the problems. And then you can see, oh, the frontage here is they're short, they're short a foot, they're short half a foot or something like that. So we'll compare notes with the other surveyor and then we might change our decision or the other surveyor might change their decision depending on how convincing we are to each other. Or we'll just agree that at the point where it comes together, there is some discrepancy there and if someone did a survey coming from one side versus someone did a survey coming from the other side, there's a problem in that area and that's where the problem meets and sometimes the pins don't match up. That's just, if there's nothing really we could do more. I asked a surveyor who was a state surveyor and he was my neighbor in Manila and old timer. So he retired from the state and then went to private practice with a local engineering firm. I asked him one day, I said, Kazoo, how come you guys say approximate or about? And he made a really classic point which you said was serving as an art and not a science. So historically, how do they measure in the old days before GPS and before drones or whatever? Yeah, so before they used chains and they would, each chain would be like 66 feet in length and then they would know the length of the chain and they would be accompanied with a compass which is a magnetic compass. So there's a lot of things that can go wrong there. Length of the chain can shorten or lengthen depending on the temperatures. If you're close to something magnetic, your compass could be thrown off a little bit. So there's all these factors before that don't aren't really a factor now with the technology that we have but could cause problems down the line to where we have to survey it now. So really, serving in the beginning was two guys with a chain, they pull and then they measure. Right. Yeah. And I always say if they're in the morning, they're strong, it's tighter, but if they're tired at the end of the day, it might be looser and that's what they say about or approximately in their description. Yeah. Well, for us too, it's because our measurements, for example, would be 0.53 for an encroachment, but we say approximately 0.5 because we're going to only the 10th, but we could actually measure to the hundreds. So that's where we say approximate for us. All right. So technology wise, it's a much more finer science now than it used to be when you had two guys with the chain. Correct. Okay. So people have to understand that serving may not be exact. It might not be exactly 5,000 square feet. Approximately is what they say, right? Yeah. Okay. So we have a few minutes left. What's an unusual thing that you found in your survey that was kind of different and yet you have to resolve the issue or you have to solve the problem? So the biggest problem for us is when deeds were written in Hawaiian before and then they've been interpreted in English, and then we'd have to actually transfer some of the units from chains to feet and everything like that. So the problems now is sometimes a lot doesn't close or it doesn't mathematically, let's say it's supposed to be 50 by 50 by 50, like a perfect square. But by the time it gets, by the time we read it now and by the time we get to the lot, it's actually 60 by 50 by 60 or something. It's just everything's just kind of off. And then we kind of have to, we have to see how to deal with that from each lot is its own entity. So we have to figure it out individually for each lot what the problem is. Well, I give surveyors a lot of credit because when you do the meets and bounds and degrees, feet, minutes and seconds, I have no idea what the heck I'm reading. And I'm so grateful that there are guys like you and your father and others and have been in surveying for quite a few years. So Alvin, thank you so much. I really appreciate the time and your insight into the surveying world because a lot of people don't really understand what a surveyor does. So I give you credit. Thank you. Thank you folks for watching. And I hope you learned some new things today on our Think Tech Kauai show. And our guest is Alvin Alembuygun and a surveyor, licensed surveyor and an engineering graduate from University of Hawaii. So if you want to see the show or more or tell your friends about it, Think Tech Kauai has an archive of all the shows that we've done. And certainly tell your friends about it. And please, we'd love to have you watch our other shows that we've had with different guests. So thank you very much. And we appreciate you watching. And we'll see you in the next session of finding your piece of the rock. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Kauai. If you like what we do, please click the like and subscribe button on YouTube. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and LinkedIn. Check out our website, thinktechkauai.com. Mahalo.