 Good morning, good afternoon, and good evening to all our viewers attending the 7th session of the Alternative Climate Conference by DiEM25 of COP-OFF. Green New Deal is the next step of politics. Thank you. Thank you so much, Joshan. So for this session we are expected to have Karen and Lukas joining us later on during the day. There was some unexpected issue at the parliament that needed attention, but she'll be with us, but in the meantime we're going to start off and kick it off with Dushan. Dushan is the campaign coordinator of the Green New Deal for Europe campaign at DiEM25. Previously he was engaged as humanity and inclusion, as well as the animal-save movements and kicking it off with us, Dushan. Maybe I would love to. We are talking about the Green New Deals, the positive ones that are going to make a difference coming up later on in the session, but let's maybe look at the Green New Deal by the European Union and from what we can see both in the press and analysis, it all looks really good and we know there's a lot of greenwashing going on, so maybe you could just shed some light for us please on that, thank you. Thank you, let me start by naming the good sides because that will be really brief. So they extended the carbon pricing to the new sectors with this fit for 55 package and as I call it fit for 1% package to which primarily makes sense when we talk about shipping of course, but now on the negatives, this is not nowhere near enough to limit the average temperature rises to 2 degrees Celsius, let alone 1.5 that is recommended by a scientific council all around Europe and the thing is that they are pushing for the carbon neutral continent until 2050, which is ridiculous. I mean, the thing is that Europe has so many resources and they can do it right now, we can do it until 2030, not 2050, which should be a deadline for all of the world. In cooperation to that, we have a problem because they are talking about, for example, vague allocation of 250 to 350 billion euros in a decade, which is nothing. I mean, the M25 is talking about 5% of European Union's GDP, which is around 750 billion euros allocated yearly towards the green transition in order to tackle all of the overlapping crises, which are the crisis of democracy where people feel allocated from the locus of political decision making, the crisis of environmentalism, of course, and the economic crisis with the rising level of poverty and homelessness across Europe. In this fit for 55% package, there is not even a word about public housing and there has been some poor numbers about the jobs, green jobs themselves. For example, they talk about 160,000 jobs in the infrastructure sector, which is nothing when you compare it, for example, to Roosevelt's green, sorry, not green, new deal, and when you compare it to the working population of Europe, they are also with this new package, they are molesting Global South again, they are not doing anything productive. And in COP26, the European Commission and Ursula said that they are going to put 100 billion euros into the reparation fee for Global South, which is not a lot at all. I mean, the Global South has many countries and 100 billion is nothing for them. And we've also seen since, you know, this is the 26th COP, of course, but we've seen no real any halt on pouring of billions into the fossil fuel industry. And of course, never mind the agricultural subsidies rather than the CAP program and this and we know between agriculture and of course the military, et cetera, and fossil fuels, these are the big emitters and it's continuously getting funded and aligning further aligning interest towards more greenhouse gas emissions. Yeah, I've got used to it that we don't see new stuff on COP, but at least I was one, I was hoping that they are going to tackle animal agriculture, for example. We are very, very well familiar that they are being paid off by the lobbies from the fossil fuel industry and fossil fuel industry gets about 11 million dollars per minute in subsidies. So this is not a new and shocking thing that they are not going to be speaking about their, I would say comrades at this conference. But then we were hoping for something about animal agriculture and nothing happened. There was a leaked document by Guardian that animal agriculture was also really involved with the lobbying and deleting their parts, their influences in the UN reports. So we have this crazy and paradoxical situation where the leaders pledged that they are going to reduce methane carbon, methane emissions, sorry, to 30% until 2030 and we have no word about the animal agriculture, which is the biggest human influence people have on methane. So also animal agriculture is responsible for the 91% of the forestation of Amazon and political leaders said that they are going to stop their forestation and never mentioned animal agriculture again. They said the same in 2014 COP, so this is not something that's going to really change or make any impact in that regard. Now just quickly going back to the European Union, of course, it's an European Union's deal here. It also feels a lot more again, another setback for local level decision-making and subsidiarity and allowing decisions to be made where it needs to be done. What does Brussels know about where you are Dushan? I mean, you know, how do they even think about making a decision? Well, the European Commission had at least the decency to drop the word new when they co-opted the term green new deal and erased all the meaning from it and unveiled the European green deal in 2020, because indeed the new it is not, but nor is it green. As the word the deal goes, we can only understand it as a tribute to the back room dealing between Brussels career politicians and well-paid lobbies that brought this disastrous plan to life. It's important to know that leader of the M25, one of the leaders, Yanis Varoufakis, invented the word or at least mentioned the word green new deal in 2002. And then this term was co-opted with severe consequences by European Commission in 2019. Because opposing to the European Commission green new deal, ours is a deal between humanity and nature and not between politicians and oligarchs. Everybody in Europe, we need your our voices and your voices for the viewers to be heard more than ever, because we are doing a lot of pressuring and we are also working on replacing those rotten structures that don't listen to us anymore, or they never did actually. So we have a new party in Germany, for example, meta 25, and we have a party with nine parliamentary members in Greece. So we are fighting on all the fronts to make this green new deal a reality. And so towards making this a reality as opposed to the European Union plan. When I think about the European Union plan, Dushan, honestly from where I'm based in the Netherlands, and bearing in mind that the country is first for roughly half the country exists below the sea level, of course. So it's only a considerable issue for us. We don't see any adaptation of a mind strategies going on in a day to day life. So this again, you know, coming back to this, it's almost, as you said, pocketing, lining the pockets, right, and not dealing with the human security problem that we're going to be facing, bearing in mind that we're looking at about a billion climate refugees by 2050, the way we're going and Europeans will be amongst that. Yeah, the thing is that they are not tackling the real problems. Even if you analyze their discourse, you will see that they went from tackling climate change to the climate change adaptation. So they are not even being hopeful regarding the possible changes they can make. They're just waiting for someone else to do it and for them not to get bad with their partners in the fossil fuel industry. So that's my take on that. We need the future that is completely different and we need to seize it right now before it's too late. And talking about the future, we also see a lot of, you know, this act, a lot of activism that's going on right on the ground. And we of course, everybody has heard the blah, blah, blah by Greta and COP26 was a lot of blah, blah, blah, and even at the final summit and what was produced. But at the same time, this has brought together a diverse range of organizations and the sustained level of activism is hopefully producing that together. Do you see that coming together on this and other issues? Well, my I'm really glad that there are many activists, environmental activists, especially and we have great friends among them and we are one of them. So it's environmental discourse is definitely present. And that's something we can look forward to. But the thing is that we need to replace those rotten structure and not pressure them into something good, you cannot pressure a rotten politician to do something good. And here is Caroline joining us, which I'm really happy. Thank you. I hope you you're muted. Sorry, you can unmute yourself. I will do that. Here it is. Okay, thank you. Great. Thank you. Welcome, Caroline and many thanks for joining us. Thank you so much. And I'm so sorry about the votes. If anyone knows the system in the House of Commons, basically when the bell goes you have to run. My office is a very long way from the main chamber. I think they put the troublemakers on the edge. So it was quite a long way to go there and back. You're very dedicated for being here today with us. And let me just say that we briefly went over the, well, false promises and lack of ambition that the European Commission has in tackling this climate change regarding their fit for 55% and Green Deal. But first, let me introduce you before we go more in the depth of the topic. Caroline Lucas is the Green Party's first MP and has represented Brighton Pavilion since 2010. Previously, she served as an MP for 11 years and as an Oxhart councillor. She has also served as Green Party leader and co-leader. She's a chair of all party parliamentary group on climate change, a member of Parliament's Environmental Audit Committee and co-chair of IPPR's Environmental Justice Commission. Caroline is the Environment Agency's top 100 eco-heroes of all time and won awards for her work on tackling social exclusion, wildlife protection, women's rights and so on. Her book Honourable Friends, Parliament and the Fight for Change makes a passionate case for the Parliament at 84. So my question since we went through the European Green Deal would be, do you agree with us in the M25 that it is a disgrace for the name and what makes Green New Deal actually green and new? Well thanks very much Dushan, it's really great to be with you and thank you for your patience. It won't surprise you to know that I do agree with your verdict on the European Commission's Fit for 55 and certainly I think when we're talking about a Green New Deal it's really important to be clear what it is what it isn't because one of the things that concerns me is that opposition and government are very clever at co-opting language you know and so they call these things a Green Deal or a Green New Deal and if we're not very careful then people are going to get a bit confused perhaps as to as to what a real Green New Deal is about and so I guess I would say that it has about three key features as far as I'm concerned and for me the ambitions of a Green New Deal go far beyond what you might think of as kind of green Keynesianism. I think a true Green New Deal must end our life-destroying fixation on economic growth and extractivism and that's why it's so important that we talk about a Green New Deal that sets us on a path to an economy that supports human and ecological flourishing not a green industrial revolution with its echoes of colonialism and exploitation of both people and resources. I think we need to expand our collective imaginations if you like to encompass a world where you don't treat people or our living breathing planet as expendable and that means obviously no more fossil fuels but it also means no more destruction of indigenous lands and communities for the high consuming lifestyles of a global few. I think it means that our energy revolution can't be built on the extraction of rare earths from elsewhere it must be a revolution that also radically reduces our energy use you know sometimes you get the sense that governments kind of look at our existing way of organizing ourselves and just simply ask the question you know how do we do everything that we're doing now but just power it differently and we're very clear that that is not good enough that business as usual however it's powered right now is a disaster for billions of people around the world because the climate crisis isn't just about climate it's about justice and the material burden of energy production can't simply be passed on to other sectors particularly metal mining and biomass extraction for renewable energy technologies and biofuels you know if we're not careful we're going to end up destroying habitats and biodiversity we're going to end up contaminating and depleting freshwater bodies and eroding land-based livelihoods and displacing communities and all of that if we're not careful could well be done in the name of some kind of green industrial revolution well it certainly isn't a green new deal and for me it's that extractivist model as a whole that needs to be challenged or it will continue to cause ecological and social harm so we don't just we don't just change our energy resources we massively use less energy that means an end of exploitation and it means the right to a dignified life wherever in the world you happen to be born so for me a green new deal is about distributing income much more fairly within and between nations it's about wealth taxes it's about ensuring that corporations pay their tax it means properly funded systems for health and social care it means plentiful education and art it means a world where we focus on the quality of our lives not destructive economic growth and as so often I think people are way ahead of governments on this because polling here in the UK has actually shown that two-thirds of people think the government should prioritize health and well-being of citizens above profit and growth so very quickly just the two other components of a real green new deal so one is as I say it's not a green industrial revolution the second is that it's got to be one where we redistribute ownership and where we rethink work and that we won't be able to move beyond extractivism and accumulation unless we do so by that I'm thinking of redistributing ownership through cooperatives mutuals community benefit companies we need a diverse ecosystem of ownership where far more people have a stake in the long term I think it means moving beyond a growth-based economy which means valuing the work that human hands do here and around the world whether that's growing or producing or delivering the food that we eat shaping physical infrastructure and crucially providing care I would love to see the care sector properly recognized and given value in a genuine green new deal I think we need to invest in universal basic services so everyone has their basic needs met for housing for education for care wherever they live in the world I think we need a jobs guarantees that everyone is able to access meaningful well-paid work I think we need a shorter working week so that we all have more time to to contribute to our communities to to spend with family and friends and I think by democratizing the economy we regain our collective agency and then just very briefly and finally I think any national green new deal must be international in outlook and that's why we need a global green new deal and I know that in this series that DM has organized there has already been a session I think yesterday talking in particular about the alliance for a global green new deal but I simply want to say that as I as I hopefully have made clear that transformation in countries like the UK can't be built on the extraction of resources and the exploitation of people elsewhere and that means that any green new deal nationally must be international in outlook it needs to recognize that nations like the UK colonial and climate debt to the global south that means transferring finance and technology it means cancelling debt it means reparations for historic and current harm so we don't just need to be balanced through reparations we also need to fundamentally reset our knowledge frameworks and I think that means listening to and learning from indigenous peoples from the from the global south and if I can just end by saying one of the most amazing things to me of being in Glasgow for the COP was the opportunity to hear such amazing people in civil society who are doing just such extraordinary things and I want to give a special shout out to Colette Pisham battle one of the architects of the black red and green new deal and I can just want to end by quoting her she basically said to survive the next phase of our human existence we'll need to restructure our social and economic systems to develop our collective resilience the social restructuring must be towards restoration and repair of the earth and the communities that have been extracted from criminalized and targeted for generations these are the front lines this is where we start I just found her so incredibly inspiring she talked about the way we build the kind of collaborative economy she talked about what's already happening in in um Jackson Mississippi and I wanted to end by saying that one of my favorite quotes is from Arondati Roy who says there is really no such thing as the voiceless there are only the deliberately silenced or the preferably unheard and I think that we need to make sure that we place the deliberately silenced and the preferably unheard at the very heart of our green new deal because by doing that I think we have our best chance of unleashing unprecedented power for transformation couldn't agree more thank you and the audience shouldn't be surprised that we align ourselves with the view since you are one of the people that also gave a review for our green new deal for Europe policy package and thank you for that uh yeah I would say that this COP 26 has been massive global north greenwashing because the people don't have the resources to come don't have the vaccines passports to come and this has been a major problem for this type of conference of course as you said and we don't want the if it's green new deal then it's not on the backs of global south people yeah so I see the question in the chat that people ask what can we do for the global south let me say that DM would like to negotiate completely world world organization world trade organization deals start bigger operation fees towards the global south and we need to encourage others by starting ourselves to stop funding military and to transfer transition that money into the green transition to transform that money into green transition but what's your take because I know you are very much aware of these issues and you are also a co-founder of the global alliance for a green new deal so maybe you can say to us how our comrades in the global south are doing again what's the program of global alliance for a green new deal which also I am a part of and Yanis Varoufakis as well yeah I'm so sorry that uh the power vega wasn't able to join you so I understand that she she couldn't but she was obviously originally on our on our panel and it would have been wonderful to have her here because I feel quite reticent about speaking on behalf of the global south of saying what I think we should do but certainly what the alliance for a global green new deal plans to do essentially there are 27 kind of core members from 22 nations and there's a majority of women a majority of people of color and indigenous communities represented as well and in a sense I think what we're trying to do is to learn from one another in terms of different legislative proposals because we are all parliamentarians and that's the focus about what we can do in our parliaments but also to have a kind of a louder voice at international institutions and certainly one of our priorities is to be looking again at reform of of world trade organization as you say of IMF of the world bank of these global institutions which over and again reinforce the kind of exploitative economic model that is the cause of the problems that we're trying to solve and in terms of what happens post cop I mean I think it's so important that we keep the momentum up because although you know so much of what came out of the Glasgow summit is so dispiriting and and absolutely some of the poorest countries were completely betrayed by by the lack of of recognition of loss and damage and the finance that was owed and so forth I think that there was there was a new sense of climate justice being at the heart of everything on the outside of the conference I mean all of us were united by that sense of of saying that justice is the heart of this climate debate and although that's very obvious I think it has taken a little while for everybody to be exactly saying that same thing and and keeping the pressure up for finances for loss and damage in particular and and the way in which that narrative feeds into the understanding about reparations and justice and so forth I think is incredibly useful and it does feel to me that I mean certainly speaking for for for my own government it does feel slightly on the back foot that it's been slightly caught out by the by the passion and the articulacy of people like the prime minister from the Marshall Islands all the Maldives the person from Tuvalu and how how powerfully they spoke about just how how essential this finance is going to be if there's going to be any serious movement in terms of addressing the wider climate and nature problems so it feels to me that that keeping up our pressure after Glasgow is going to be massively important and they were all probably feeling a bit exhausted after Glasgow but given that the next meeting is going to be massively important on on picking up lots of these subjects I think it's the case that in the in the old days it was Paris and then you waited five years for the next big one well now I think after Glasgow there's going to be a big one every year and hopefully through the year too so it is about keeping up that that momentum in the in the coming months thanks after seeing how we talked a bit about that but now I have a bit touchy question after seeing how European Commission massacred the Green New Deal what's your impression on the Britain's take on the issue it's there now more a chain more of a chance for Great Britain to have something new and exciting or it's a missed chance for even a little step by Brexit what are the odds for both of the solutions well solutions options I don't think Brexit has helped us at all in terms of of coming up with something better unfortunately I I take the academic proposal that it could have done in some ideal world but I was never a believer that there was a left case for Brexit because it felt to me as if if we're going to have the power to face down the corporations for example then then we need to be acting as a bigger block than the UK on its own and certainly looking at at our most recent governments in the UK there's absolutely no interest within them at all of taking the radical action that we need not even radical action just common sense action that we need to put people back at the heart of our our economy rather than than corporations so although in principle I take the point that Brexit could have allowed the UK to do something bigger and better in reality it hasn't and it's quite interesting just to look at the environment bill that has been going through our parliament it's taken forever and this is the bill that's supposed to be replacing the environmental legislation that we lost when we left the EU and and replacing for example the role of the commission in in terms of enforcing environmental legislation and essentially it's much weaker than what we had when we were members of the EU and I think that's just an interesting sort of sort of microcosm of the problem you know we've left the EU we're ending up with with a situation where I have less power over or access to the documents when it comes to international trade deals as a member of the British Parliament than I had when I was a member of the European Parliament you know I was a campaigner in the European Parliament saying that transparency in the EU was nothing like good enough and that is still true but it's more than I have now as a backbench MP in the Westminster Parliament so on transparency and on substantive environmental and climate policy it was actually better in the EU which I know probably is not necessarily what you want to hear but and it didn't have to be that way if we'd had a you know a progressive government it could have been different but unfortunately a government led by Boris Johnson has has completely yeah completely torpedoed any hope of us coming up with stronger legislation as a result of Brexit. No we completely agree I mean you know what's our stance on the transparency of European Union but we are very well aware that only United Europe can can say was but that needs to be completely different when then 25 was forming our motto was Europe European Union will democratize or it will disintegrate and unfortunately that proved to be right as it seems. Yeah yeah yeah I think that's right. On the other note we talked about greenwashing a bit you we know that you and our other friends from the Green Party UK are really green and not just in its name but how do you fight now all the others and how do we escape the close or close of greenwashing because even big corporations are using that term even the European Commission is using that term other parties that are not so green if you agree are using that term so how do you manage to stay out tempting and to take back what's yours. Yeah it's a really good question and it's one that that that we are spending some time thinking about I mean when it came to the Green New Deal specifically one of the things we were sort of talking about within the Alliance of the Global Green New Deal was the idea of what are the principles of a real Green New Deal in which for example justice and addressing grotesque inequalities and so forth are the other side of the climate question and you can't deal with environmental justice without dealing with social justice and so I think when it comes to some of the language around a Green New Deal we've got a pretty good start in terms of saying what is and isn't a real Green New Deal. The trouble is that's fine if people are listening to you long enough to hear you say that but in the meantime in terms of sound bites in the in the media and so forth then it's very difficult the whole corporations to account in particular and and they are some of the worst at doing this and and it's not that we don't have the arguments to take them down it's just that we don't necessarily have the same access to to the media to be able to challenge them quickly enough before they've moved on to the next thing and yeah it is just incredibly hard it feels like we're playing catch up quite a lot of the time and that's both in terms of the language that they use but also of course some of the false solutions that they come up with because it feels like false solutions is the other side of the kind of the false language if you like and you know some of the claims being made for blue hydrogen you know what the hell is blue hydrogen it's just dirty hydrogen let's call it what it is or carbon capture and storage where we know that again the technology doesn't even exist and in terms of being able to operate at the scale that that would be required or all of the discussions about the the offsets you know just just I went to a brilliant session in Glasgow organized by WWF and Greenpeace and others really just going through how much land will be required to to produce the trees to offset the emissions of all of the companies who are telling us they're going to be net zero by whatever the year is and just the one that sticks in my mind was just one company alone Shell would require land three times the size of the Netherlands just to meet its net zero target by 2030 or how far it would need to get towards net zero but by 2030 that's just one company three countries the size of the Netherlands so it feels to me that as well as focusing on the greenwash we really need to focus on that little word net in net zero I think that word is really toxic because it allows it allows corporations and governments to make the most outrageous claims for what they're going to be able to achieve and people who aren't watching things as carefully as as as campaigners will believe that they are going to get to net zero by whatever date they come up with 2030 40 50 doesn't really matter because they're not actually cutting emissions what they're doing is indulging in all kinds of magic maths that is somehow going to mean they're going to take the carbon out of the atmosphere and we know just reality means that they can't all do that by those dates because we simply don't have the land available and and to the extent that there is land then that's land in the global south but if we're not very careful will be recolonized by again corporations in the north accessing that land and using it for its own its own offsetting purposes so I think I think that kind of truth busting has got a hell of a lot of work to be to be done yeah and even the amazon rainforest and this summer is consuming more emissions than sorry producing more emissions than it consumes which are the earth lines so we are living in a really bad period for the civilization yeah yeah no a shocking to read that I saw that just quite recently on on that note what would you say that are the key takeaways from the party program of the green cuk key takeaways from the party program of the greens I would say it is all about the economy you know that phrase of bill clinton from a long time ago from his election campaign it's the economy stupid and I suppose that begins to answer in a way your earlier question about how do we see through the greenwash because I think you can look at any other political parties environmental sections of their manifestos or the environmental sections of of different corporations and they'll often come up with some of the right words and some of the right orders and but actually what you need to look at is their economic policies and what I think marks out the green party is and maybe we don't agree about this I don't know it'll be interesting to find out but and it is that we we just believe that on a planet of finite resources the idea that we can go on producing and consuming even in a slightly green way in is not going to fit within the within the kind of biosphere and the earth's constraints one of the things that we often say is that you know that we hear a lot about net zero by 2050 which is our own government's target and not only are there problems with the net bit of the net zero as I've just described but 2050 is 30 years away in 30 years the size of the global economy is due to treble if current growth rates continue and the idea that we could decarbonize an economy three times the size of the global current economy I think is just for the birds it's not going to be able to be done and no more on earth is there any real evidence that we can decouple emissions from from manufacturing and production sufficiently to mean that new technologies are going to be able to help us with this and so if your starting point is that we can't grow our way out of the problems then I think a whole set of policies kind of follow like a massive emphasis on redistribution you know it rather than thinking that trickle down wealth is somehow going to help us we think a there's no no real evidence that that has happened to date but b it's just an excuse to go on with the same extractive accumulating growth model and that's why we put such a strong emphasis on on redistribution so what we want to do is move away from measuring progress in terms of GDP growth growth domestic product we want to be looking instead about well-being of of planet and people rather than simply thinking that knowing that our GDP has gone up by three percent tells us anything very much about whether or not people are feeling happier whether they're feeling that they have enough food to put on the table whether they have hopes for their kids for the future and so on so I think I think the takeaway for the Green Party of course we've got you know huge numbers of environmental policies and social policies and we could talk about a four-day week or a universal basic income or much stronger environmental policies but I think the thing the core difference is around our sense that the economy needs to change massively away from one that is so so obsessed by by growth absolutely we need to abandon the fetishism of GDP and transform it at least over the genuine progress indicator which measures education level well-being environment and so on and green capitalism cannot save us definitely we need something radically different we can find the roots for that in the growth movement for example and we as well advocate for the universal basic income that would come in a form of a dividend and for the work week which aligns with the growth as well but also the change in consumption itself is very much needed and we need as leftists to understand that when we talk about individual behavior we are not less leftist than usually so everyone has to do their cut corporations are the most responsible definitely but that doesn't abolish us from the other individual responsibilities no but I guess the one thing I would say about that is that sometimes governments are very keen to really kind of focus very much on individual behavior change and although there is certainly a role for that it feels as if the first thing that has to happen is that governments put in place the kind of enabling policy framework that makes it easier for people to to change behavior there's no good telling people to to travel by public transport if there is no transport after a certain time or it's really expensive or whatever so one of the things I was just voting on when I just ran away to to vote it was it was a vote on on the finance bill which is based on the budget the budget that our chancellor produced just before the Glasgow climate summit and the headline thing in his budget was a reduction in tax on domestic aviation I mean I just could not believe it just just days before before before the Glasgow climate summit to be making domestic aviation cheaper just seem to be the most crazy thing but it's those kinds of you know if instead of doing that he was making buses free or trains much cheaper or whatever then it's much easier to talk about that behavior change but when it's going to cost someone three times more to travel by by train and to take an airplane then it's but it's a much harder thing to ask people to do to do the greener thing absolutely and I don't know if you knew but eco footprint idea and echo footprint calculator was actually made by a scientist working for the fossil fuel in I saw that I saw that yeah so definitely we have to make the structure adaptable to the people for the environment and not the other way around that's why we say free public transport across the continent in the municipals as well free sorry to take the burden away from the airplane industry we need good connections and we need to include the echo side as low against humanity I know you also had the work around it we need to abolish industrial animal agriculture and so on and so on agreed okay let me take one question or more if it comes from the audience uh someone wrote a cop 26 created crafted a narrative that could be potentially useful to cool down the planet the problem would be cooling it down at the expenses of which communities which lands and which livelihoods yeah I'm not quite sure if I understand the question but but it feels to me as if that kind of speaks to the bit of the conversation we were having about global subsets about net zero and and the idea that in fact that all of those plans end up depending on lands and communities in the global south and and yeah recolonizing them again essentially so I think that's quite a dangerous narrative indeed I'm not sure if I understood the question rightly but if that's what that yeah I think I think that's it yeah I think that's it thank you and there is one more with the GND now drafted with some possible tweaks required since it was drafted in 2019 2020 what are the next steps to get out there and be promoted well I guess this one is for me for me but you can also talk about your program in a second or let me just address it quickly that we as I said in the very beginning we are actually working on establishing meta 25s which are out of electoral wings in various countries three days ago we formed our electoral wing in Germany we already have one in Greece because after so many years of activism we learned that we cannot pressure the rotten structure into doing something good as I've learned and I think you agree with me Caroline on that one because we lost completely the fate in the stereotypical politicians and I know the viewers did as well as I assume do you have something to add regarding your pushing your agenda well I just wanted to give a shout out to a fantastic organization in the in the UK or mobilization called Green New Deal Rising and they are young people who are absolutely running with this agenda of the Green New Deal right around the country they've got a different number of different hubs Fatima was at Glasgow people might have might have met her there and and it really I mean it feels to me like it's got to be coming from the grassroots in a way and that's what makes it different to Clive Lewis the Labour MP and I are resubmitting the bill we put it in the last parliament but what happens is that when one parliament ends and the next one starts up you have to resubmit it so we took the opportunity to do a huge amount of conversations with the unions with different kind of different kind of interest groups as well from the environment development human rights and poverty groups and so now we have a bill that is definitely better but I think what's crucial about it is that we also have now a much closer relationship with Green New Deal Rising and so they are really mobilizing in local communities and and making it mean something I guess there's always an ongoing discussion about whether the title Green New Deal is or isn't a good idea in the sense that here in the UK we obviously didn't have the New Deal we didn't have Roosevelt's New Deal so so in a way it's not language that perhaps speaks so directly as it would in the States but but I think Green New Deal Rising are doing a really excellent job of making it mean something in communities and beginning to unpack what's what's in that big that big bill and and and talking about and learning from local communities about about what that can mean for them so so to kind of answer the question I think in a way although we're resubmitting the bill nationally I think I think the real excitement will come really in terms of the local mobilizations and doing some work with local authorities local councils in the UK as well where we're trying to learn when local councils want to move in this direction of a Green New Deal what are the national policy obstacles you know that might be to do with procurement policy for example there are certain rules around procurement and that means it's harder to you know go straight to the kind of the local the community the the state run procurement that you might want to do or it might be to do with local energy networks and how what needs to change nationally to enable a flourishing of of of community owned local energy networks so we want to try and pinpoint some of those national um obstacles and so that's something that that we can work on at the parliamentary level while at the same time there really is a much more of a grassroots mobilization as well let me just start for our viewers that dm25 is first of all a movement so we have our chapters around Europe called the dsc's dm spontaneous collectives so you can join the moderator will give you the link in the chat because we see our dsc's as really the core principle of our movement because you people are the ones pushing the narrative to the left and we incredibly value that and we will support you during that process also our policies are not being written top down they're bottom up we are grassroots so you can participate after this session and on starting uh thursday i think uh to our cop-off talks which where we are going to gather all the ideas you hear you heard from our participants and we are going to try to transform them into the policy measures you are more than welcome to join on that and let me ask you Caroline first of all uh if you have any final words closing words I guess my only final closing words would be I know people came away from Glasgow feeling just feeling angry I think partly just feeling really angry at the way in which in the which some of the issues of of justice and some of the issues around the finance and so forth were were postponed yet again and I suppose what I would say is I hope people will um will not lose faith in a sense and I'm sure they won't but I I guess I I wanted to say I really kind of feel for people that are feeling you know that was such a huge kind of investment in time and energy and so on and sometimes it can just feel that we are constantly having to fight but um I I suppose I I came away from Glasgow just just being genuinely so inspired by the breadth and depth and scope of of the wider civil society movements and the wisdom of them and um and so perversely in a way I did come away feeling some real positivity about that and um and and just the the sense of leadership from from the outside is is is so strong um that I just hope people are able to um once once you know they've dusted themselves down and and had a bit of a sleep hopefully they will feel that they can get back stuck in because there are just some such brilliant people who are working on our side of this thank you this is a nice call to action for our viewers thank you very much I really enjoyed this talk I hope you did as well and we will see you in the next session we have the next session with Maya Belovich and Sabrina Fernandez talking about eco-feminism destroying the gender hierarchy thank you very much and see you soon thank you thanks Caroline thank you so much