 Okay. All right, great. So we have a substantial change of topic here. A couple of few months ago I got an email out of the blue. I have a consulting business that I think I mentioned before where I help organizations engage with Wikipedia in a variety of different ways. And I got an email that basically said I want to help running a Wikipedia edit-a-thon for high school students. And that was very exciting for me to see because I've done a great deal of work in bringing the university world to engage more deeply with Wikipedia. But I've also long felt that there is maybe more opportunity from an educational perspective at the high school level, you know, maybe it's more challenging to get high school students to be adding large amounts of high quality content to Wikipedia. So from the perspective of improving Wikipedia, you know, there might be a bit of a question there. But from an educational perspective, it's so important, I think, for junior high school, high school students to be learning to evaluate the information that's coming at them from all different directions. And Wikipedia is such an important piece to that puzzle. You know, I've been working with high school students for a bit. Let me just, yeah, a couple of things. I didn't actually introduce Jan by name. This is Jan Patton. She's the research librarian for the Nueva School, which is, I believe, a charter school in, no, I'm sorry. It's an independent school. And it's a... Hold your microphone very... Relatively a brand new high school. We have 9th, 10th, and 11th grades right now. We're an outgrowth of Nueva lower school. And our focus is primarily on gifted students. Nueva was started back in the 60s when there was the no child left behind movement. And the woman who started Nueva felt that the gifted students were also being left behind. And so we needed to address their needs as well. And we also have a very strong social-emotional learning piece that goes along with kids who are very, very bright. So I was thrilled to start working with the students at Nueva this year. It's my first year at Nueva. And when I saw how good they were at research and asking those deep questions, I should also preface this all by saying that Nueva worked with Stanford in the very early stages of design thinking. So our students are very familiar with asking deep questions, doing deep dives. We don't have textbooks. We don't have grades. It's sort of come to school. What are you interested in? What's your passion? And we take it from there. So I've been using Wikipedia for about 15 years, I would say. And when I first started out, the teachers would say, they acted like it was the instrument of the devil. Okay? It's like, you would never use Wikipedia, you know? And I'm like, really? Okay, okay? So it's sort of provoked my curiosity as a researcher and someone who teaches research. And as the years went by, I kept watching and trolling and watching and trolling. And about, I would say, five years ago, I started becoming intrigued with the idea that you could actually go in through the back door and start to look at who was contributing. And so when I started to talk to my current students about this idea, they were so excited. They were just so engaged in that whole idea of being able to not only contribute but edit. And because it really is their tool. It's the tool that's going to become just a second nature to them. It's still new to us. It's new to all of us. But for students who are 14, 15, 16 years old, this is going to be part of their culture, a very significant part of their culture. And so I felt like it needed to be participatory. And so I happened to see something about the Bay Women's Edit-a-thon. And I thought, well, why don't we do that for our kids? And so about two weeks ago, three weeks ago, we had our first edit-a-thon with about eight to ten students, Pete, Wayne, and Ben, sorry. And it was just so great because the sparks were flying. You know, we got introduced to the format. We got introduced to looking at some of the resources for what was behind some of the articles that we were interested in. And they were interested in very different topics, the economic bubbles, urban turtles in Costa Rica. You've just gotten back from a trip to Costa Rica. Right. Our entire 10th grade goes to study turtles in Costa Rica and the Monteverde rainforest. And so, I mean, it was interesting because they're actually working with PhDs and scientists in the field. And they were astonished at the level that our kids have in terms of their intellect and what their knowledge base is because they're like, it's like talking to kids in college, but they're 14. And it's like, yeah, they're not midgets. They're really, you know, they're really that smart. So there were very enthusiastic. And they took a look at the Playa Grande page, which is that's where the Leatherback Trust is. I don't know if you're familiar with the Leatherback Trust, but they're a nonprofit organization. They work with scientists in the field and they do a lot of work trying to save the Leatherback Turtles. And thanks to Wayne and we found out that a lot of the information on the Playa Grande page was actually from real estate companies. So we thought, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second, we can write it was basically a marketing brochure for this sort of tourist town in because or maybe not a tourist town, but from people who looked at it as a tourist town. Exactly. And we were able to catch phrases like the beach boasts, I believe was one of the phrases and we're like, it may have been nestled into a day. Yeah. So yeah, so it's like teaching kids to really spot that kind of verbiage within the Wiki pages and say, wait a second, I don't think I've ever heard a beach boast, but you know, so it was great. So can you maybe raise your hand if you've ever been to a Wikipedia editathon? Okay, so that's we've got a good number, but a lot of people who haven't. So basically an editathon is it can take a lot of different forms, but I've run editathons in in many different groups. And typically what I've done is I've worked with someone like Jen, who is from maybe sort of outside the Wikipedia community, but has their own community. So I've done editathons with the League of Women Voters. I did one with the company HubSpot. I did I'm having a hard time. I've done so many. I can't think of more examples right now, but but typically, you know, like an organization will come in and they'll have a reason why Wikipedia is of interest and can speak and sort of bring that aspect of like the passion and the interest to the table. And then I can be more in a role of guiding people and well, how does Wikipedia work? And what can we do with it? And what are the policies that we should be abiding by? And the thing that I was really that I really found interesting in working with the high school students is the approach that I take to editathons is I usually do like a 45 minute introduction and explain a lot of stuff first. And I found that with the high school students, I felt like they were especially hungry for that. I felt like they really enjoyed and appreciated that maybe more than other audiences because you're maybe just sort of in a mode where you're absorbing a lot of information, you're going to classes. It's kind of what you're doing. And when we stopped and started doing stuff, they were off to the races. They were they were figuring stuff out on their own. They were coming up with really smart questions. So can you like maybe just to bring a point to this, if there's something else you want to some other direction you want to take it that's fine, but I'm sort of curious about sort of the high school mind and and like and and and sort of that spark of creativity in that. So well, they they're just very curious and they're they're not they're fearless actually when it comes to research. I mean, the questions I get, you know, a typical day for me, it's just unbelievable. I'm right now I'm doing research questions on historical context of invisible man, everything like from that to they're doing major projects on the Middle East and and the Far East. And it's just, you know, it's mind blowing and they just ask such really good questions. And and so we really try to use Wikipedia as a tool for some of our research because they know about going scrolling to the bottom and looking at citations. So that was a really good way for me to, you know, get them started on that because they're used to vetting information. They're not satisfied to just take the first thing, you know, the first three hits on Google and call it research, you know, they really do use databases, they really do use books. And as I say, they're very used to doing deep dives for information. So so they look upon this as a fun challenge, you know, and not only in terms of what knowledge they have or or want to find out, but also the fact that they're very proud of, you know, being able to say they contributed in a significant way to Wikipedia. So I think from the perspective of a Wikipedia and something that that would be considered challenging at the high school level is is having an idea of what would be an appropriate sort of goal for a high school student. And like to give a little context to that, one of the first organized academic or educational efforts with Wikipedia was a professor in British Columbia who assigned his students to write an article about, you know, in literature that reached the featured article peer review status, the highest level of peer review within Wikipedia. And I think a few of his students did accomplish that, but most of them didn't. It was a really like it's an incredibly high bar, like more I think than even he had realized when he sent them in to do it. But, you know, at the high school level and this and maybe even especially if you if you look at, you know, public school or other, you know, where it's not so much of a gifted, highly motivated student environment, it's a little difficult to imagine what's a good goal for a student and that they'll find motivating where they can do something that is likely to actually stick on Wikipedia. So what are your thoughts around that? Well, I think, I think for our kids, you know, when you mentioned that if you improve an article, I think Wayne, you've mentioned it, if you improve a certain percentage of the article, it gets bumped up to a... Did you know, I think, so it can get linked on the front page of Wikipedia. They're all about that. They can't wait. They want to go for it, you know. So they're very competitive that way, you know, in a healthy way, I think, you know. And as I say, I think, I think that it's really morphing into a very great tool for a lot of reasons for students who do research because in all students do research, everybody does research and it's sort of, I like the fact that it's participatory, you know, and they can work as a group either digitally or together, you know, in person with each other and also the fact that they can pursue their passions, you know, through Wikipedia. So I think, I think that's, I think it's a win-win for everybody. I think, I want to say, I think with this session, with there's just the two of us up here. So I think we can be a little bit more fluid with questions or comments if people have ideas they want to get in. Yeah. Yeah. Our students were busy. They're at play rehearsal. They're at tennis practice, you know. Otherwise, I would have loved to have brought some here. But I think they also, another thing that I think they found very interesting was finding that there's a format and there are grammar rules and in terms of how the pages are built and things like that. So they're all about that because they're very tech-sappy. I think one thing that we've found, I'm not sure, there probably is research around this. I'm not aware of it. But to anyone who's very active in the Wikipedia community, it becomes pretty apparent that there are many individual high school age or much younger students actually, you know, editing like very active on Wikipedia. And one of the things that I think they tend to gravitate towards, actually, my friend, Britta, who did a presentation here a couple months ago, talked about how when she was in high school, she found that doing administrative tasks was much easier than trying to write at a high level that would, you know, that write something like a featured article. But, you know, being like doing administrative tasks and being elected as an administrator was very satisfying and also there were a lot of very specific rules that she could follow and sort of know that she was doing good stuff. Wayne, did you have something to add on that? Yes. So Pete was just mentioning young people editing Wikipedia. A couple months ago, I was looking at the gender gap on Wikipedia and I stumbled across a study that was rather extensive. And what I was surprised to learn was that 25% they took a homogenized, I forget the term they used, but they took a homogenized look at editors and readers. They didn't segregate them. And that 25% of the readers and editors are between the ages of 10 and 17. And that another 25% are between the age of 35 and 85. And that the other 50% are between the age of 17 and 35. I think that is a much higher percentage. You said it's 25% or between 10 and 17. Is that right? Readers and editors. Yeah. But that does, that is higher than I would guess. But why don't you raise your hand if that's about what you would expect? Or is that more than you would expect? Yeah. I think that needs to be unpacked a little bit because I got lost in the numbers. So it's like seven years for 25%. And then it's 25%. Half of that 20 years. Okay. Skewer is very young. So I see a question in the back. Can we, Phil, could you maybe rove with the microphone? We also have a microphone. I'm a rover. Hi. I'm in the back. In the back. In the back. Thanks. You'd walk in a rover. Say hello in your name or something. Hi, I'm Zoey. I was just wondering if there were efforts to bring these types of resources or events to lower income schools or more diverse communities? Because it sounds like this is the first high school event that you've done. And it, I would guess, is maybe like a more affluent community in school. But you've talked a lot about representation and diversity. So I was wondering if that was the case. I'm very glad you asked that question. I think the short answer is for the most part, no. I'm sure there are people doing good work that probably really wish that I was mentioning it right now. But there's nothing substantial that I'm aware of. But I do, I agree with you. It's very important. I went, when I, so my background with the, with the what has basically, I designed the pilot project for what has become the Wikipedia education program of the Wikimedia Foundation, and also has spun off into a separate Wikia education foundation. That's all at the university level. And when we first did our, our first pilot project, we went to top tier schools. We went to, you know, we went to Harvard, we went to Princeton, we went to the University of Georgia, you know, Syracuse, you know, pretty, pretty well respected schools. And I mean, I'm naming the universities, but specifically, there were public policy programs that were very highly respected, because that was the topic area that we were using for our pilot project. And one thing that I realized as I was doing sort of the early interviews in exploring whether we could do something with them was that my sense was very much that these professors, they wanted to, they wanted to do something that was proven. They wanted to do something that, that they could have some confidence was going to lead to good outcomes. And the more I talked with, with people at like community colleges and less prestigious universities, the more I've gotten the sense that there's more of a hunger sometimes at that level to do something that's experimental, to do something that could turn into really something great. And, and might sort of end up leading the way. There's, you know, if it does turn into something great, then that's sort of maybe putting that school or that program on more of a even level with some of the more prestigious universities. So I think there's, I think there's probably a lot of opportunity to do good work at the local or at in the lower income levels and some of the more neglected school districts. Personally, when I do this kind of work, it's almost entirely when someone comes to me with it. And, and it, you know, I really do need to have a partner who can sort of rally their community and get their kids excited and make that case of why is Wikipedia important and what do we want to get out of it. And I just haven't really had the opportunity. But Jan, do you have some thoughts? Well, you know, a lot of times the door is through the, either the faculty or the librarian at the school. And there's still suspicion out there about Wikipedia as a tool. I mean, I think it's an incredible instructional tool, informational tool, participatory tool. I mean, it's just, it's like the New York subway system. Everybody's the same, you know, it's like, you know, it's that common denominator. It's a wonderful tool. And I think it could be a tough sell in some schools to say, we're going to, you know, turn the kids loose on Wikipedia, because, well, for some, even I met with a little resistance and not very much at all. About, you know, I guess our middle schoolers had done, had rewritten the school website or the school Wikipedia page. And you know, we got locked out, I guess, for six months or something like that. So I had to assure this person that was middle school, you know. And it's true. I mean, they're kids. So, you know, you really have to be, you know, we had to talk about being responsible and, you know, that kind of thing. And these are kids who, again, who are very high intellectually. And so they know, they were going to be responsible, you know, that kind of thing. And so far, you know, nothing, nothing crazy. But I think there is, I mean, if we just think back to some of the, some of what was was being discussed in the last panel, where like, there are certain topic areas, certain articles where the information that a high school student might find or that anyone might find might be really bad. It might really not reflect the research out there, or it might really strongly reflect a sort of a niche point of view or, you know, any number of things. And so how do you feel about high school students dealing with that? How is that a good thing? One of the earliest things that happened during this session was, Wayne, I think you mentioned, you've done the thing on Caitlyn Jenner and how that you had an individual who approached you about the Caitlyn Jenner page and how it had gotten some flack, because you heard from an individual who'd been a runner with him, her, and felt that you should have a Bruce Jenner page and a Caitlyn Jenner page or something like that. And so the kids were really interested in that and really interested in talking about that. We do talk a lot about transgender and, you know, we're a Bay Area school. So we are, you know, we talked about that a lot. And so, and we're trying to get more and more girls, you know, involved in the editing processes. I think actually, like, programs like this really have the potential to be one of the more powerful tools in narrowing that gender gap on Wikipedia and bringing more girls and women in. It's actually been the education programs that we've had. I think I've generally had more women, more female students than male. It was about a half and half at the editathon. And there's a Wikipedia course that I've taught several times. And I would say not only, like, more women have signed up for it than men, but also what really stands out to me is that it tends to be the women who really stand out in the course. And it seems to me that there's maybe something about, I mean, it's, I hate to generalize too much without, you know, without some kind of scientific backing, but it does seem that there's maybe something about the approach that women like to take they want to be introduced. They want to be, they want to sort of understand something about the nature of what they're getting into. And once they are, can really, you know, do great things. I think it's a great tool for those of us who feel like we're underserved that we don't have a voice. And here's a place where we can have a voice, you know, including high school kids. Anyone else? Oh, yes. Well, I was just going to say, you know, I'm a little bit eager to try to get people involved because I know I've promised a few people here that I would show them how to edit. I may have overcommitted myself a little bit given how much time we have. But yeah, I think one thing about Wikipedia is that we've attracted a lot of very geeky people who like to get into computers. And that that has a gender bias. And it's actually gotten harder, I think, in some ways to get into Wikipedia, because you put up more rules over time. And the rules are somewhat more rigid, and the articles are more solidified. And the expectations are higher. So that's one of the things we're hoping to do with this type of event is that, hopefully, we have made this explicit, we can get people who are sort of experienced to sort of take on someone who's not experienced for a few minutes and try to show them. I'm pretty sure in my experience, almost any area of Wikipedia, pick a topic, there's going to be something you can do. Maybe it's a little bit of a copy of it. There's probably some citation needed. There's some area that hasn't been fleshed out. It takes a little bit of diligence, but I'm confident that you can find something to attribute even without too much time. So when we get into more free form, I'll be bouncing around if anybody is interested in helping just do a little research and making a little change. Okay. That's great. Thank you so much. And we have one student who I believe is going to intern here this summer. Please tell me more. You'd mentioned that, but... Yeah. Yeah. Loreen who was at the event with us has signed up and is going to intern here this summer. So, you know, and she's a real leader. Was that a result of like, had she gotten interested through the editathon and then applied or...? Yes. Yeah. So, we're very proud of her. Yeah. So, I think I'm not seeing a lot of hands shoot up and it would be nice. Do we have the space until 8 o'clock or 8 30? I think, I think Stephen, you maybe said that you might be able to stay later. Okay. So, I mean, we have 40 more minutes and if we don't have more questions that people are dying to ask, I'd say let's break and get back to the food and chat amongst ourselves. And maybe Ben, if there are people who haven't edited before, Ben, maybe you'd like to do a little bit of a session now. So, seek Ben out and he can get you started editing. And Wayne. And I'm sure they're just ask around. There are many of us who edited Wikipedia. Yes, please do check out Chris's books up at the front here. And also, so for next month, the upcoming Wiki salon is going to be Wednesday, May 25th. They're going to be every last Wednesday of the month. And we are going to not, we're going to specifically not have speakers there so that we know that we really will have time for editing and more casual conversation. We're thinking we're probably going to alternate one month with something more formal and one month without. So, please do come next month, bring your laptop, especially to those ones. And if you have ideas about who you'd like to see up on the stage or what kind of event you might want to see happen the following month, be sure to let us know. I think the best place to use right now is the talk page for the event page. So, you could just go back to where you registered and click the talk tab at the top and leave any comments or ideas there. So, thank you so much, Jan Patton, for an excellent presentation. And to our previous panel as well, Pax and Chris and Herb.