 Hello friends and welcome back to another episode of bought the t-shirt podcast I'm your host former Ruins Commando turned adventurer Chris through all and today. I have an absolute pleasure Anton Sheller Panoff is a very good friend brother of mine and We're gonna have a chat Yes, there's so much to say about Anton so in a in a short sound bite Anton is Siberian Probably the only Siberian I know There are not that many of us. There are only 30 million of us. Is that all? Well the Russian Federation something like 150 million people and Siberia which is if you look at the map it's one-sixth of all dry land in the world It's only 30 million people More than I thought well very low population density and you've got Tigers there saber-toothed tigers or is that a thing of the past? Oh, yes, I think the saber-toothed tigers are have left us during the last ice age About eight thousand years ago. You still have some Siberian tigers in the Far East near the Chinese border the area that's It's called Manchuria and Yeah, but they're in danger They're not very many of them. I thought you put some like cat food out and maybe they'll Maybe maybe I think because being serious for a moment Because their habitat is being destroyed there, you know, you're not far off that they might actually be Wondering in two towns and eating trash Out of out of dumpsters as Americans call them So yeah, you're not possibly not far off with cat food. Yeah, bit like the polar bears. I'm really well Yes, very much and actual bears So in Siberia you still have some bears wild bears Some wolves as well and yeah bears brown bears do now again due to the destruction of habitat and climate change They are wandering in two towns and again eating eating out of bins. Yeah, they're starving They're losing their habitat. Have you seen that video? There's some YouTube clip of a guy in the wilderness Some reason something's telling me he's Central European on What we used to call Eastern European, but he actually goes up and kicks a brown bear and then it promptly Runs away a few yards and then it turns around and savagely attacks him. Well, why why would you do that? Well, well, I Don't know the word is the word idiot comes here. It comes to mind. That's a that's a strong word. Yes so As I say a little brief bit of background on Anton Fascinating man probably one of the most fascinating and knowledgeable individuals I've ever met a Oxford University graduate and Think it's fair to say although he'll always be humble on this one of the countries or the world's leading Authorities on prison reform So this is You want to go kind of kind of you to say? Yeah, I think there are well, there are people who know a lot more than me But I have had a a career in the field. So I know a little bit. Yeah What would you say? What's the kind of how is that in a nutshell? What wider prisons really reforming? Well, because prisons have Four stated goals So first of all, let's jump back a little bit. There are several types of prison Systems in the world and they're partially characterized by the cultural setting and they're partially characterized by by their history So you've got Some systems in countries which used to be colonized by European countries in the global south which have inherited a lot of the old Colonial style Legislation you've got a very violent prisons in places like Latin America. You've got post comic the post communist space where the system was set up to Extract as much economic Function out of individuals and she's slave labor and then after communism collapsed There wasn't really very much to replace it. So these are transitioning systems. They're trying to find their direction now What what are they for? How do they work with people? Then there are still communist countries like China where again the system The system is different. What we have in let's say northern Europe and Northern Western Europe and the US and some some some other similar Similar countries, maybe or ECD countries. I think that's a it's a reasonable grouping is a is a fairly it's a fairly recent phenomenon. It's only about 200 years old Before that imprisonment was very different, but this notion of Contemplation and reform is Is an end and isolation is something that says fairly recent and obviously is now endemic to The biggest prison system in the world, which is the United States has got over two million prisoners Although it has been going down a little bit over the last last few years It's very similar in the UK and other northern European countries And whilst they take us likely, you know, you hear about Scandinavian countries being very liberal That's true up to a point, but I think I think in my experience the differences between prisons are marginal So that's a little bit of context of what we're talking about. We're talking about these northern hemisphere Let's say or ECD country prisons like the US and the UK and other parts of Western and northern Europe Maybe some other countries like So in these places, let's see if I can get this right prisons have Four stated goals, right the first is Vengeance I somebody did something bad and society for individuals want to extract revenge The second is deterrence So if you do something, you will go to prison prison is not a nice place So don't do this thing that will lend you in prison The third notion is what we just touched on rehabilitation that, you know, the idea that if you take somebody Somebody somebody to prison to prison, you have the chance to offer people education and employment training and maybe Treatment for addiction, whatever. So that kind of rehabilitative notion that Victor Victorian very strong strong and sort of in the Victorian Victorian consciousness Kind of quaker sort of Protestant thing and then finally Isolation so what if you take a person who is Deemed dangerous out of society and you isolate them in a secure setting then they're unlikely to cause harm To the outside world, right? So these are the four stated goals. This is what Pretty much all western northern European systems you find this in the political rhetoric You will find this in a mission statement. And so very various reflections of those four Goals in different combinations. Some countries might Might some jurisdictions might press more on the deterrence side. Some might Focus more on the rehabilitative side, but you will find some elements of those four in in all in in all prison system Missions Now the truth is that you know, I can say hand on heart universally all prison systems fail in the first three of those completely and in the fourth one Almost completely or partially So let's take them one by one. Yeah, please do Let's look at punishment if something bad happens to you or your family And then something, you know, some kind of sanctions is imposed on the person who did this Does it, you know, does does it make people feel better probably not like it's it's unlikely, you know You always hear, you know, this person didn't get a lot enough sentence Or this person didn't go to the right kinds of conditions. The conditions are too lenient or it's the wrong kind of regime Partly it has to do with the way it's communicated communicated in the press one of the trade-offs for having a free press in a democratic society is that That press is going to say what it likes in order to Make itself popular in order to engage the audience and so on. So there will be sometimes exaggeration Sometimes playing on a maybe not exaggeration, but but highlighting a certain thing or playing on certain emotions You know a lot of it is very emotional. So does it achieve the desire for vengeance? I would argue not and perhaps your audience might Like comment on this on on the script and and and disagree with me and I think I would welcome the debate So secondly, what was the second thing that I said? Is it uh deterrence with the second thing deterrence? does the idea of Criminal sanction deter crime? Well, I mean there is actually there is a book here on my my shelf by tom tyler Which I would recommend. It's called White people obey the law Look it up Uh, it's it's it's it's it discusses this at great length And I think the answer is no. I think you know if we talk about for example And I hope you'll come to this a bit later in the conversation somebody who is suffering from addiction And they need to find financial means To be able to pay for some substance Or indeed if they are intoxicated Is the notion of going to prison likely to prevent that person from Committing some kind of offense to either require something or to act out It's not with it. No and the fact that we have Crime and the fact that we have High rates of re-appending you know up to two-thirds in most OECD countries northern european countries Uh, I think shows that the deterrence aspect of criminal sanction criminal justice sanction doesn't work Let's look at rehabilitation. Can we just say that that there's so many people I don't know if you can say it's a majority, but there's so many Young people I for me, it's young men who I've worked with in the past That are filling up the prison system the drug offenses Related to addiction You need to remember addiction is a mental health condition. So it's it's technically an illness, right? Well, let's also not forget that up to a quarter of new Opiate addictions for example are acquired are acquired in prison For example, so it's not just that people are going to prison for drug offenses actually Quite a large proportion of people who go to prison also acquire new addictions when they come there so we're criminalizing people for being unwell, which is Pretty great. It's quite draconian when you when you look at it, right? Well, we can talk we can talk about mental health and How I have worked In some countries and in some settings where I think I think there are some not good but helpful solutions to some of those issues so we can we can touch on that a little bit later going back to your So rehabilitation. Well, that's it's it's exactly your point Uh that we already started talking about this Does prison rehabilitate? Well There might be there might be some single figure individual cases And these do tend to be quite high profile cases uh where people say yes, I've You know gone straight or whatever the phrase is I have achieved this and Is that down to the prison system necessarily is that down to people's experience of the prison system? Maybe down to negative experiences But does prison rehabilitate? Well, look at the reoffending rates. We're offending rates are up to two-thirds and that's that's the detected ones Look at the new addictions which are acquired in prisons Look at the violence which occurs in prisons. Is it a rehabilitative environment Somebody who has been to prisons in over 20 countries and their work with justice systems, you know all all over the world in different continents I again would argue it's certainly not I'm sure your some members of your audience might disagree and again I would I would welcome that that debate and people may have different experiences and finally the The isolation aspect is sort of the you know if you if you get somebody who is dangerous and you put them in You isolate them. They can't commit for the crimes. Well Maybe up to a point maybe some prisons succeed in this Uh, or in some cases it's successful But you know, you look at some of the highest profile crimes Even of the last 10 years like the terrorist atrocities the madrid bombings the train bombings and madrid the terrorist atrocities That was all planned from inside prisons If you look at the fact that mobile phones And other communication technologies in them if it's very easy to bring them People do acquire mobile phones in prisons This I this isolate this concept of isolation is becoming less and less Can I just chip in there and I just want to talk from my own experience It's back along. Um I kind of have my brushes with a law um And without going into too much detail, it's it's subject for another another day But I was very lucky. I didn't get sent to prison But just by appearing in court was such a A wake-up call such a shock such a Almost like it brought to light for me what I was Doing which was wrong Inherently hurting other individuals that had not done anything to me and that whole experience Was enough to make me completely reassess my values and my actions And so you feel the court appearances or appearance did have a rehabilitative effect Well, when you're faced And I'd already spent I think two nights in the police cells When you're faced with maybe losing a few years of your life or at least spending it in a in a penitentiary um prison Oh my god, you suddenly have a wake-up call and you think my god, what have I been doing and and that was enough for me to Realign my values and make me go on and You know, I'm not saying I've not done stupid things since but I I haven't gone down that criminal route Whereas for our young people now It seems to be sending people to prison say because they were dealing weed You're putting them in a lot and yeah non-violent, you know non-violent offenses. You're putting them and we've got to remember without trying to upset people here, but but Prisoners very often are the victims too victims of childhood. Yes. Yes mental health There is a There is nobody is just a victim or just an offender or just a hero Or whatever. There is a huge overlap and I would say the majority probably more than 50 of people in prison have been victims of Crime and quite serious crime themselves It goes much it goes much higher for women who are in prison more than two-thirds of women have been victims of also so violence sexual violence physical violence And so and also we have to remember that quite a large Proportion of young men men in prison also have traumatic brain injury as well, which is a A major factor one of us. I think my point was Chucking all these young people who are in themselves victims in a cage With Say for example lifetime offenders who don't see any way out of crime Is in Inducting them into this lifestyle that maybe had they had the shock that I had They would have well, so there is a lot there. So let's let's let's unpack all of it. Let's let's let's patch on your last point first the idea of lifetime offenders, I think we need to separate Out the person who is who who who has a who has a lifetime of offenses And the person who has a life sentence Now people who have life sentences, which is usually for very serious crimes like murder Actually from experience and a lot of prison staff will tell you this they actually have quite a lot to lose because they Hope to be out on license at some point in 20 years time. So they have a lot to lose. So generally They're seen as a more stable group Of prisoners. They seem as a more stable A population where upon maybe some younger men Whoring for a short time Maybe less they may be less stable But you know, I have heard it said by some prison officers that actually so-called livers in Later in their sentence if they're mixed with a more short term younger prisoners They actually have a stabilizing influence Because they have more to lose and if something kicks off as there's trouble of their problems. It's bad for everyone Uh, it has a negative input for everyone. So so these these prisoners might exercise a kind of A bit of a strain So so so that that that's that's that's that's that's one difference Whereupon as you say a lifetime of crime a lifetime of offenses, I think that's something different That's somebody the point the point I was making is more You know, you're putting these guys that were that have made one crime. It's a one-off If it was dealt in the right way, they'd probably be put off crime for life and and and if they were supported to this And and and possibly either Uh, so so so let's let's let's let's go back to what you said about the court appearance. So, uh, the way People go through life and the way people interact with the state including at the extreme end, which is the justice system Is usually via a series of crisis points And the crisis points in terms of criminal justice are possibly the point of committing the offense The point of being arrested The point of appearing in court the point of being sentenced the point of going to prison The point of being released from prison. These are all transition points. These are all crime crime Like little wake-up calls. They can be little wake-up calls, but also those points. Unfortunately It's where people pass between different Agencies and different system and a lot of the time they don't they don't meet up a lot of the time There is no continuity and there have been various attempts in england over the last english wales Over the last 20 years the idea of the not national offender management service Originally in the early 2000s. It was actually to have end-to-end sort of case workers From the very early stage of somebody's Journey through the justice system towards their Exit from the system, but that never really happened. The national offender management service ended up being just another sort of triangular structure Which didn't achieve any of those four stated goals that we discussed at the beginning of this conversation But yes, so I agree It's these crisis points are Can be wake-up calls But they're also the points where people can fall through the cracks Between the different agencies between the different systems very much. So I think I think have we addressed Yeah, no, I think those three three different things we have. I mean america's system is Is it better to say it's one huge failure or? The u.s. Don't they imprison more people? I think shawnat would would tell us more about this So the u.s. Is the highest in prisoner in the world In terms of episode numbers the u.s. Holds something like a fifth or a quarter of all prisoners. It's over two million prisoners um And also in terms of the prison population rate. I would need to look this up. There is a very A helpful resource online if your audience would like members of your audience would like to look this up It's called the world prison brief online And it's a project that I worked on many many years ago Maybe 15 years or more 20 nearly 20 years ago and it continues to be published by a What part of the university of london the institute for criminal policy research? ICPR and it's it's a data from the last however many 20 or 30 years For every country it's got the prison population the prison population rate the proportion of remand prisoners women prisoners children in in the prison systems there and attracts both the rates and And absolute numbers as well for for every country in the world almost every country in the world So yes the u.s. Uh, it reached A peak about 10 years ago over two million prisoners and then the absolute number has stayed stable But the rate has gone down a little bit because it's the population has grown So the rate has gone down a little bit, but it still remains I think the number one Big big country the one number one big country country, which in prisons Which in prisons people there might be some small island nations which Kind kind of because they're such small countries and they have like some big Spike at a particular moment that might distort the top 10 a little bit by the u.s. in terms of Continuity it is it is number one, but the thing with hyperincarceration is It leads to a crisis it leads to a public health crisis It leads to a mental health crisis it leads to a public finances crisis because prison is very expensive And if you look at the u.s. The u.s. Spends something like five times more on its prison systems Then it doesn't hire education, right? so So these crises result in Some very negative outcomes of course, but they also In particularly in the u.s. Actually I have observed this and I've worked with a few states in the u.s. They do produce a real can-do attitude in terms of trying to solve these problems um And I believe the the technical term is burning platform innovation So when the thing that you're standing on is on fire you figure you quickly have to figure out a way of Getting off the thing or putting out the fire so a whilst I would say a lot of the United's or a lot of the states in the u.s. Remain in a crisis. We've also seen some very innovative approaches Uh, I would highlight the experience of new york both city and state which has managed to Reduce dramatically reduced its prison population and reduce crime at the same at the same time I would highlight missouri, which actually quite a long time ago By but more than 20 years ago pioneered a fairly unique approach to youth justice So the missouri model of dealing with the young people who enter the justice system is is is a very interesting one So yes, there is a lot of harm being caused by hyper incarceration not just in the u.s. But elsewhere, uh, but also the crisis lead to innovative approaches because If you think about people who go to work in the justice system A lot of people well like yourself chris you have worked as an addiction support worker Uh in the past, uh, it's people who want and obviously a lot of the people you work with Or some of the people were justice involved. Oh, no massive age He's handing glove in a lot of scenarios And and you know, why why did you why did you go into that because you wanted to help people? And it's entirely possible that somebody with your experience might have been working in the prison as well So, uh, yeah a lot of people who walk who go into the justice system Some of them go into it possibly for similar reasons and people go into the military and that they want to keep society safe Either from you know, people go into the military because they want to keep society safe Their country safe from external threats People who go into the justice system To work in the justice system want to keep the country that's their community safe from crime. So maybe there is that Driver other people going people who work in education people for drug support workers Uh and social workers and others Going because they want to help people they want to help people get better. They want to help people Improve their lives have better outcomes and and and the mixture and the mixture of the two as well You know, it's not just what I know I'm conscious of our time here folks. So I'm just going to move this forward a bit, but I just wanted to um My experience of working with young offenders Uh Was a fascinating one But and it was very rewarding in a way as part of a university placement I put in for an organization run by a fellow former marine who was In a nutshell without being too specific. He got a team He got someone within the prison to pick The young men Who he deemed were looking for a way out of their their criminal past Many of whom had uh We're recovering from addiction So I went to work with them at a Let's say an old manor house that was up on Dartmoor These 30 lads were there And they were getting shown some sometimes simple things like how to wash how to cook um basic life skills And I went in as part of my university placement for three months On the first day I just explained who I was a little bit about my own. Um, you know Yeah, I say criminal Well, you're your background. Yeah, and and and how I I I turned it around and I showed some photographs with my travels and Again cutting a long story short The Response I got was phenomenal the effect I could have As a as a positive male role model, and I think there's a clue there in this There is actually a word for it as well Pro there's the technical term. I'm sorry to be democratic. Uh, pro-social modeling. Yeah, it's called So you've got antisocial behavior and so on and then you've got pro-social Yeah, and people don't call it that because it's a bit of a technical term, but that's what you are doing So, I mean a lot of these guys were obviously lacking a positive Ro male role model in their lives And I was able to come along and not just be a positive role model, but I guess use my people skills to to really push the right buttons and Had an amazing result the first day together Or the second day, for example, we took some sports and played football And we agreed and this is my marines background coming out Now the losing team would have to jump in the lake and this was the middle of winter and there was this boggy marshy lake And we played the game my team. I was captain of one team. We won The other team all started good luck. Yeah, the other team all started. Oh, we've got to jump in the lake and They're walking down this in trepidation slowly and then I just winked at my team and said And we just ran past that we're all dived into this lake Completely against all health and safety that you you have these days And once the lads of the losing team saw us running down they all ran down and we're all we're all swimming in this in this bog basically and Just a simple act like that gave to these guys their dignity their respect their hope for the future love And a feeling of accomplishment of achievement But i'm gonna Move on now because i'm I am conscious of the time. I got to get a train back to glimmer by the way folks. We're in top them now um So can you explain your t-shirt? Ah, yes, so I am wearing an old t-shirt. It says uh red army rc red army riding club uh My brother chris here and I are both members Of this motorbike riding club. It is a charitable and social Club we we love riding but and we love partying but we also Try to do our bit to give to give something give something back to society And we've just had a very successful fundraiser for A small charity here in north london called out and about and it works with students from A special school who have severe and complex multiple complex education and mobility needs And it takes them this charity takes them on trips to nature to the forest to the seaside to cultural events And unfortunately this year they've lost a couple of major donors And they were worried that they might not be able to Take some of these young people to some of the trips that they so cherish And we stepped in and we raised over a thousand pounds. Well, no, no, no, we are the people Our friends our community has very generously donated over a thousand pounds things We're up to something like one thousand two hundred fifty pounds if you include gift aid So, uh, it's it's a really great feeling and hopefully this charity will be able to run The trips that they wanted to this year Yeah, that's that's one of the Anthrop does an amazing job of organizing this every year It means an awful lot to these small charities And they should just say that i'm the chaplain of the red army riding club Yes, and chris chris's function, uh in this club Is uh very much it's the word chaplain doesn't mean it's a religious Role it means that chris Thank you bud, right? Uh chris chris's role is to Provide a pastoral support to other members like myself To talk to us when we think that there is something we need to to talk through Our thoughts are feeling sometimes No, not not every not everything is loveliest and positive all the time and chris's Role which she does amazingly well is to support the other members of this or this motorbike riding club. So briefly Three questions Most inspirational person Oh, that's a very very tough one. I I am I am tempted to say you but uh, I think that's uh Yeah, I think I think that's that's possibly a little bit too sycophantic. He's only human. Um, yeah, I'm I'm just human um There are many inspirational people Uh, but I think in terms of what we're talking about today, which is justice reports I would say it's uh, my first my first boss which is uh baroness vivian sterren and she was for uh, over 20 years She was the director of a charity called the national association association for the care and resettlement of offenders Necro and in the late 90s for her work was awarded First the cbe and then was elevated to the house of lords as a crossbench as an independent beer uh, and uh, she and her husband professor and recoil uh Well kind of shaped shaped my early career and and taught me so much. So In terms of justice reform what we're talking about, I would say Baroness vivian sterren and professor and recoil Both incredible people now retired, but but still still still active still working a worthy cause so Most influential or inspirational book Other than eating smoke. Are they eating smoke or 40 nights? That's another uh, very powerful book. Um Again, it's it's impossible to it's impossible to to to say what's the most inspirational book. Can I recommend one book? It's a it's a non-fiction book Uh And it's by a guy called Matthew Crawford who is an american motorbike mechanic actually he was he worked for a conservative think tank work He got a phd from A university in the u.s Worked for a conservative think tank for about six months and was basically didn't like it because he was He felt he was being made to produce evidence To order kind of thing Opened the one-man motorbike Repair shop works and motorbikes and writes very good philosophy. I think in my opinion So I would recommend his book the case for working with your hands Uh And the subtitle is why office work is bad for you and fixing things is good Uh And I think this this might appeal to some to some of your audience. I think it's it's very love it already Matthew Crawford final question Film That's uh, baby. That's that's again. That's another that's another huge question. Uh, in terms of one that you've just really enjoyed in terms of uh, a film which I think is both Great art and very entertaining for me. And it's a film that stayed with me Maybe a bit strange Batman Returns The second Tim Burton Batman film with Michael Keaton as Batman Batman returns I think it's it's stronger than the first one in which of course Jeff Nicholson famously upstaged Michael Keaton as the Joker Uh, and yeah, I think I think it's a it's a it's a darker. It's a more Artistic film, but it's also very very entertaining and you know, I I love the Batman comic books and I think Batman Returns. It's a film which I I returned to I've seen it more than once It's Batman Marvel or I I think Batman is DC. DC. That's right. It's it's it's a Tim Burton film brilliant Okay Dear friends, thank you for watching Anton. We've been a cracking guest. Thank you. We will uh Pick this up next time. I hope so. We've got lots more to talk. We can talk about our snowboarding adventures Been pretty pretty amazing some interesting injuries Yeah, I don't know whether you can see the scar scar there quite a lot of titanium and the bones as a result and also Anton's going to tell us about his 3000 mile road trip on your motorbike Around Europe last year. Yes. I could solo around Europe of which there will be a book coming out I hope so. Yeah brilliant Anton Thank you very much brother. You really appreciate it Friend, thank you for watching my video I'm the only person I know That has ticked every item off my bucket list and I did so coming back from chronic addiction with no help from anybody Now I want to pass those skills on to you But I can't help you unless you help me and hit the subscribe button So please do so and let's go and smash this world together