 Welcome to the November Hyperledger Financial Markets Mortgage Subgroup Meeting. I'm getting better at saying that. Before we get started I'd like to express our appreciation to the Financial Markets Special Industry Group and the Hyperledger Foundation for their support. They're the guys that really make this possible. So thank you to them and why don't we go ahead and just dive right into just the antitrust policy. We always start off with the same things please note that this meeting is being reported under the umbrella of the Hyperledger Foundation. So we ask that everyone abide by the antitrust policy and the code of conduct. Antitrust policy states that we avoid discussion of company-specific product and pricing, don't make negative remarks about other companies or products and the code of conduct means that we treat each other with respect, never discriminate, communicate constructively. We fully support Hyperledger's policy of openness, equity and inclusion and for new participants please introduce yourself in the chat if you'd like and if there's any areas of specific interest please let us know. And you know Marvin to add to that really quick you bring up a really good point we do record this session on a monthly basis. It is posted out on YouTube on the Hyperledger site so if you're interested in this session or previous sessions or future sessions feel free to take a look at the Hyperledger YouTube site. Yep thanks James. So our agenda we're making a slight change in today's agenda. We've moved the speaker portion up to accommodate some scheduling conflicts but as always please feel free to ask questions. This is an open forum and we all benefit from questions, comments and interactions. So with that I would like to introduce Rick Grant. He is the president of RGA Publications, a communication consultancy. Rick was also recently appointed the chair of Blackfin's innovation focus think tank, the innovation leadership cohort. Rick has also been producing a series of podcasts titled Would You Consider and that's what he's going to be discussing with us today that's focused on the industry excuse me on the mortgage industry so Rick take it away. Thank you Marvin guys thanks for having me. Thank you also for adjusting your schedule. I have a conflict that made that difficult and you guys made it easy so thank you very much. So today and I guess you've got my slides Marvin on your side. Yes I do. Okay not that they're all that necessary but what I want to talk to you about today is first and foremost what Mark D'Angelo and I are doing and Mark is a well-known author and speaker. He writes mostly for NBA Movies Newslink right now and he came to me earlier this summer and said we should do a podcast and I've been doing podcasting off and on since 2005. That's a great idea and today I want to tell you what we're doing but also why and then in the last few minutes talk to you about why you should all be doing more podcasting more podcast appearances and three keys to looking and sounding really good when you do that and it's not technical stuff right so let's trick that right. So man I apologize got a chest cold that I'm getting over now. All right so let's see did I have slides I don't see slides. I'm apologies Rick I am just bringing up the slides. That's fine okay when it comes up you're going to talk we're going to talk about the the growth in podcasting almost everyone in the country has downloaded at least one episode of one podcast and we've seen massive growth over the last five six years although that the rate of that growth is slowing because we're seeing more people on the internet over the last few years as well but still it's very significant if you look at Spotify they'll tell you they have about 3.6 million podcasts out there. That's podcast shows Apple will tell you that they index 63 million podcast episodes and increasingly those episodes are business to business podcasts and why well it adds so much when they can hear you and see you speak about what they do. If I had just written a little thing for Marvin to read this is how Rick thinks podcast is important you might have listened to it it might have some impact on you but not really anything significant but if I come to you and I show you this slide which is the next slide Marvin thank you for getting that up I show you the next slide and the growth and you can see graphically how it's going and how it's changing well that's likely to have a better impact on you and it doesn't have to be in the early days when I started in 2005 it was all about audio podcasting and that's really great on the B2B side because busy executives can just download it to their phone play it through their car punch in the Spotify button on their dash and they can hear your podcast while they're driving they can consume that information without really even trying to but increasingly we're seeing video as well as podcasts and the excuse me the podcast I'm doing with Mark is video and we'll just get on zoom and we'll talk and we'll have a guest come on and they'll tell us what they think we should be talking about now right so and that's the whole point of it is what you consider so we'll get a guest on for about five minutes and in a pre-recorded segment and we'll say what's really important right now and they'll tell us it'll usually take about 20 minutes for them to kind of really explain what it is and then we'll edit that down to five minutes we'll put in the podcast and we'll talk about it and then that's kind of the entry level we can do more things with the podcast as we go forward but that's an easy way for anyone in the industry who knows what leaders should be talking about now to get on that podcast and talk about it but it's one of millions of shows right millions of shows out there um that are allowing leaders to talk about what's important so if you look at the next slide you'll see a quote from someone writing in Forbes about the rise in business podcasting and she says the industry spending binges is highly indicated of how large podcasts are poison and global um another factor is the large selection of genres available there's something for everyone blah blah blah business podcasts are getting increasingly popular and I'll tell you why it's not because business people want to sit and listen to a Joe Rogan style show for two hours I don't know any of us who have time for that even though I love the guy what we do have time for is five to 15 minutes during the due diligence phase where we say yeah I keep hearing about this person but I don't know I haven't met them do I really want to work with them let's take a look they pull up the podcast they listen to them and they hear something that makes them say all right okay give them a call let's let's start this conversation and for that they're very popular and that may explain why of the millions of podcasts that are out there in the world right now about half of them are only downloaded according to Apple 26 times so only about 26 people will listen to more than half of the podcast episodes that are out there but if those are 26 business leaders that you want to do business with what's that do to your business right so that's why we're seeing so many and they just don't care that they don't have a thousand or ten thousand listeners because on the B2B side we just want to connect with the person we want to do business with so we'll record this podcast we'll put it on our website and we'll wait for them to show up right all right so the next slide is just about our show Mark and I it's super simple we pre-record with the guests so there's no way you can make a mistake you get on you visit with us for a little while about something that you think is really important and we try to try to focus you on one topic of conversation imagine that you were in a conference you're out in the hallway you see somebody that you know you have just a few minutes to talk to them what are you going to talk about that's the point of the show so would you consider talking about this or this and we started planning it for one of the big oil the fall conference season really because we knew all these conversations were going to be going on and we wanted to kind of get a feel for where they would be and what we found was that the business leaders were so busy getting their stories together that they didn't have time to broadcast it ahead of the show but now they're coming to us to talk about what they did talk about at the show and why everyone should consider talking about that right so if you look at the next slide boiled down basically what we're looking for we're looking for experts who can explain in about five minutes a new trend or some critical consideration why it's important that we discuss it now the impact of not dealing with this now which will be negative of course and one thought that will really get people thinking about it what's that what's that catalyst idea that we need to discuss there is no charge for this right now this five minutes will be about well probably 20 to 30 minutes of conversation but we'll edit it down to that best five minutes right so now say I've got you thinking about it now you're thinking well I'm in this group I know a lot of things we should be talking about right now as well I know you do so how can you do the best job of that so let's go to the next slide kind of keep muting while I cough so when I started podcasting was in 2005 and I really started because I had I had left my job at the publication and I didn't know about PR I was just a writer and I wasn't willing to charge people to do PR until I learned it and I didn't really want to learn it so I started a PR business or a podcasting business and it went great and we specialized in five-minute you know executive insight podcast like this and it I ended up selling that to a PR firm that then as part of that deal trained me to be a PR guy which is why I want to PR from today but I still don't like that business but that's a whole other story so so podcasting I've been doing since about 2005 and I love it and what I've learned is that for an executive just to come across really well on a podcast and really in the way you can tell this afterwards they like it and they say Rick that was great experience I really like that and that's hard to get people to say because nobody likes the way they look on camera and nobody likes the way they sound on tape but if you can get them to say that was great you know you're doing it right well there's three keys to that so we'll talk about those really quickly the next slide is the first one and that is you have to sound like a real human right that'd be really that sounds easy because we're all real humans but in fact it's not easy for business executives because they have marketing teams and the marketing team has done a tremendous amount of work getting all their talking points together keeping them on brand and so typically when I talk to a business executive and I ask them an important question the first time they're going to give me straight up marketing and speak they're going to say Rick according to our official publication and all of our material this is what we do and why and it's really boring and nobody likes that so we'll talk about more things for a while and then we'll come back to it the second time I ask them that question a little bit differently they'll do the same thing but they'll start to sound more universal well no Rick the marketing people have told me that this is what we do and this is why we do it the third time I get to it they go rich look this is what we do this is what we're passionate about and this is how it works and this is fate and I say thank you that's what I was looking for sound like a real human don't sound like a robot that's come out of the marketing department I know that's tough because you pay those working people good money to get all that stuff together but if you come across that way on audio and video nobody's gonna listen to you all right so it's hard but it's not possible what's the second key that's the next slide oh man I'm sorry you're having to put up with my voice today demonstrate that you know your stuff right now the best way to do this is to feed your podcasts or questions I want you to ask me about this I want you to ask me about this and this because that's the stuff you do every day you know it like the back of your hand and when people hear you talk about stuff that you really know because you're really doing it right now they start to get this feeling of trust with you they start to start to think okay all right this this person is a real person first of all and they seem to really know what they're talking about that's good but they're not going to decide to decide to do business with you unless you have the third key so let's go to the next slide and the third key is sometime during the podcast you have to demonstrate that you are that you are passionate about helping people solve their problem now I've talked to oh god thousands of business executives in my career fantastic people all and they're all passionate about what they do but the mistake they often make is that they're passionate about what they do not always what their customer needs right so this is really important for this group right you guys have an amazing theoretically incredible impactful technology that could change everything but if we just talk about that and not talk about the problems that we solve with it we're not going to get them we're not going to get their attention they're not going to make that final click on that combination lot that says this is a real person they know their stuff and they get my problem and they're talking about helping me solve it and they're sounding like that's what they want to do and it's not just well we have to make certain profitability by the end of the quarter and we have to make sure that all these are no no it's about we get what you're struggling with we get it we've lived it we've watched you live it we've lived it together we're peers and now now we have a technology that can change all that but I'm not going to tell you everything it can do because god we'd be here for days but talk about your problem and show you what that's what I'm passionate about helping you solve all right so if you can do those three things in any podcast appearance you are going to come out looking and sounding great fantastic don't get caught up with the typical well have the makeup is my eye shiny is my face shiny am I can you hear me well is this but none of that matters right on the b2b side all that matters on the b2b side is do I trust I'm like right now Marvin I'm looking directly at you on my screen do I trust this person because if I don't the conversation stops right there it never goes beyond that but if I do if I understand him how does that trust bill one he's a real person he's not just selling me something somebody told me somebody two he really understands what he's talking about and three he gets where I'm at he gets my problem and he seems passionate tell me solve it yes yes Marvin sit down with me gotta figure this out that's how it works so will will mark and I be able to do that on our podcast no we won't be able to take it you know take it all the way to the end what we can do is let the industry know that you're a real person you know what you're talking about and you see the potential to solve a problem but we have to have this discussion first this important we have to talk about this important thing right so I know that's a little over the top Rick are you just talking about some podcast recording yes yes I am but but it can be one of the most powerful tools that you have in your arsenal it can start the conversations that will get you to the people who can make decisions that can advance what you're working on it can take you beyond the theoretical phase of wow look what we could do to wow we're going to work together to solve this problem right that gap you can solve it with something like this and it could start on our podcast and all you got to do if you go to the next slide I think is it the next slide is our contact information yeah that's it just email me call Marvin Marvin's got my contact information get to us we'll schedule something we'll have the conversation it'll all be pre-recorded in the old days excuse me when I started I used to cut it all up and then send it back and get approval and it was a long process and they always approved it because we're from this industry we're from financial services and we've been writing about it forever in a day so we're not going to make you look stupid we want to find out what's the most impactful part of your message and we will find it in that 20 or 30 minute call condense it down to 45 minutes put it in our podcast and then Mark and I will talk about it add it back and forth and your company may say ooh we want to be a bigger part of that conversation and then we can talk about sponsorship down the road where you could actually get on there with us and really dig into it but for this first phase what we're doing is just trying to get we're trying to seed the industry with the conversations that matter the things they should be talking about and by industry I mean basically all of the industries that we touch not just mortgage not just banking not just insurance or any of those but but anyone who can benefit from the changes that smart technologists are trying to bring to market that's it that's it thank you for listening I got the chat open if there's any questions or any concerns or things you wonder there are all kinds of podcasts going on b2b in your industry just do a quick search go to apple podcast do a search find out who they are send them a note they're always looking for guests always figure out what you want to say make sure you get the three keys down and get out there and do it do it keep having those conversations and it'll serve you well that's awesome Mark the reason or excuse me Rick I have Mark DiAngelo in my head that's awesome Rick the reason I wanted to have you on here is because there's so much chaos within the mortgage industry right now this is a fantastic tool for people in the mortgage industry to get their ideas out there to use your podcast channel to reach a broader audience for example just within the hyper ledger meetings that we have there are usually about a couple dozen people that attend the actual meetings but then download it you're talking about three four hundred people download our hyper ledger meetings so your podcasts make this information extremely digestible and easier for people to get their ideas across and start the conversation I also wanted to mention the point that really stuck out is to be human one of the key things I've always tried to do every day I rised all on NPR that guy I've never met him but he's like one of my best friends because he's human I listen to him every day I trust him your podcast would allow someone to develop that type of relationship with their customers or at least get out there so that was fantastic Rick thank you Rick thank you very much for you know taking the time with us today and Mark's a great individual he and I were both on a panel a couple days ago at the IE and he's been on you know talks here as well so we appreciate it greatly you know for some of our people that are listening in or watching this later can you maybe give us some highlights of some of those podcasts relevant to the you know blockchain industry the mortgage industry that you and Mark have talked about in the past yeah so if you know Mark D'Angelo and if you read any of his stuff online or any of his four or five books you know that guy takes a it's not a 30 000 foot I think he's in orbit and he's looking down because he sees so much more than we do my constant challenge is is focusing on one problem right and I rarely get it done but we've talked about everything on the show from data meshes to specific implementations of blockchain and different parts of the mortgage business to recruiting problems that the industry's having going forward all important conversations and nothing's off the table with us but again we're just one of probably there's probably 10 or 20 in any industry you want to pick that would be good for any member of your group to go on and talk about and see some good information in there okay so um Rick the the best way for people to be a part of this process is to reach out to you and then bounce their ideas off of you and then you can help them get an introductory podcast out absolutely and I'm not going to be I'm not the judge of their ideas I just all I want to know is uh do they know their stuff and and can they condense it to to something that I can fit into five minutes some of the conversations that we have to have especially with new technologies is groundbreaking is what you guys are working on is that some of those conversations are massive and big but I want to focus in on what are those what are those key ideas what are those catalysts that can get that conversation going so they can take it there they take it off the podcast into the real world and solve those problems so yes all they've got to do is email me or contact me anyway I'm on linkedin I'm all around the place and say Rick want to be on the show we'll schedule a time have a zoom meeting talk for 20 minutes and that's it I'll cut it down to five minutes I'll show it to mark we'll get on the phone probably on a Saturday we usually do it and we'll and we'll kick it out we try to keep our shows to about 30 minutes but again I'm working with Mark so that's difficult because if he tells me everything he knows I know Jimmy laughing but yeah so um so it's a lot of fun uh you know you know being mark on the other end here oh my god so now I'm under the bus oh my god Mark you know I love you you know I love you it's just keeping it to 20 minutes in a conversation with Mark D'Angelo is a Herculean task and I look forward to it every time we schedule a podcast it's something like herding cats and Mark since you're here and I'm so glad you're here uh you did a great job on the IEEE panel uh at the beginning of the week so thank you very much uh you and James were fantastic panelists and uh we'll talk about that later on this on this call um but you guys did a great job so again uh you're extremely knowledgeable and always welcome to hear your input on any topic gosh now I'm blushing if you could see me thank you guys I do have to leave it and prepare for something at the bottom of the hour but I want to really thank you so much for let me talk to your group about this and I hope they take advantage of it uh because we really want to see you guys advance what you're working on yeah we appreciate it greatly Rick as I said in some of the articles I'm going to talk about we're going to uh talk about two other podcasts that are out there as well doing examples of exactly what you're talking about here yeah and we definitely want to do a podcast Rick so consider us waiting in line excellent excellent I will look forward to it guys have a great rest of your meeting you do thank you take care Rick okay let me see if I can go back to sharing my screen okay so hopefully you guys see the blockchain presentation uh again um I'm not going to spend any time on this we always go through this slide just to talk about the blockchain journey and what we're all trying to do so let me go ahead and skip to the next section what I wanted to talk about in in this section was about a month or so ago there was the Hyperledger Global Forum in Dublin Ireland there were a series of presentations I think about 94 of them I've identified a couple that I think are really interesting for this specific audience and I wanted to share that information with you the first presentation is a discussion of a real estate property management application using tokens and d5s you can see on the screen Mohan Venkatharaman the CTO of chain guard excuse me chain yard he was one of the speakers at the IEEE as well he does an excellent job of walking through the application that his company built it's for a Kansas rental property management company and this application allowed accredited investors fractional ownership through tokenization in rental properties so there there's the link at the bottom of the screen and I wanted to share just uh some additional information on this application the use case for this application was through a client as I said rental property company wanted to use tokenization and blockchain to attract small investors they wanted to increase liquidity and maximize earnings for investors so it's really similar to the secondary market aspect of mortgages I won't go over the key requirements they're listed on the slide but the ones that I want to point out are the ability to buy and sell a state with minimum latency and that's the benefit of tokenization and compliance with existing laws and regulations so it's I think a really fantastic tool and the link is at the bottom of the screen I highly encourage you guys to take a look at it and just again really quickly on some of the other information some of the key steps in the workflow just starts at the top of the screen the company creates a holding entity tokens and then they create an LLC for each property and issue an NFT for each new property so that's how they tokenize the property and then they collect rents and process dividends so that's taking place here on the right hand side now the LLC can sell tokens to investors through what they call liquidity pools investors can buy the tokens and add to the liquidity pool and then the investors the owners of the tokens receive the dividends and then they have the liquidity to swap and sell their tokens so that's just a gross simplification of what's taking on taking place on this slide but again I highly encourage you take a look at the presentation I think it's well worth your time the other presentation I wanted to walk you through and this is kind of I think this is our token tokenization theme was a presentation by Michael Klein from Accenture a token economy's moving beyond NFTs it's not about crypto and I think we all given the state of bitcoin in the crypto market we all want to stay away from crypto for a bit it's not about crypto NFTs and board a jpegs it's about building digital marketplaces so this is the only slide I'm going to walk you through it just as I mentioned in the earlier presentation there are a lot of similarities between the secondary market aspect of mortgages and the secondary market aspects of tokens so you can see here that one of the key things Mike stresses in his presentation is tokenizations allow secondary markets to resell and swap those tokens unlocking their value life cycle so it's not just about the very first sale but about the sale the nth number of sales that take place in the secondary market so a really good presentation and what he really starts to talk about and I think this has kind of been underlying everything we've been doing in this sub ledger group in this mortgage subgroup is it's all about an ecosystem a mortgage blockchain ecosystem so I wanted to get that thought into everyone's head and this is really starts to talk about it so I'm not going to go over these additional slides we always keep them in our presentation the site map how to create an LFID so this is for people that are new to the group and want to take advantage of the information that we have out there with that I'm going to turn it over to James Hendrick and he's going to give you guys an update on the state of mortgage in the global mortgage industry fantastic thank you very much Marvin let's go ahead and move into the first slide so you know following kind of with today's theme we do have a couple of podcasts that we're going to talk about you know looking at the global activity again here's kind of a refresh of the various articles that we have talked about throughout the sessions this calendar year as well as in last year as well let's go ahead and jump to the next slide Marvin so you know starting out with eight crypto loan companies that are using blockchain for lending this article comes out a built-in so while most of the companies that are talked about in this article are us-based I included it in the global section because a lot of these are spanning across multiple countries the article starts out with you know how does a crypto blockchain mortgage work business loans bonds kind of giving a general overview and then it discusses the risks that are associated with the crypto back loans particularly in today's market you know as we see the the impact of market fluctuations that are going on and how does that impact not only the borrower but the collateral value as well we did discuss actually some of this in last month's presentation some of the companies that they talk about in this article salt where borrowers can lock into cash loans from 12 to 60 months with an APR as low as 0.52 percent they're available in almost every US states and salt is starting to expand out to New Zealand, Brazil, the UK and Switzerland. Liquid mortgage is talked about in the article where borrowers have a single blockchain platform that helps them track and manage payments and protects their data utilizing blockchain you know natural encryption lenders have smart contract abilities and real-time transaction data that they're able to work with and then you know a few of the other companies they talk about in this article and we've talked about them before we trust figure unchain capital so again great article to take a look at and seeing what's going on in the global platform. One of the first podcasts I wanted to bring up was from Bitcoin Amsterdam so Connor Sefton does the coin market recap podcast he had on in the month of October Tristan Marino and Aaron Nevin from Moon Mortgage they actually started up Moon Mortgage because they were independent contractors and they were having issues going through the traditional method of obtaining a mortgage and providing you know validation of their income and assets. They talk in the the podcast it's a great discussion on how to blend liquid act liquid and stable assets and how to build out a secondary market for crypto mortgages volatility in the crypto market again is another topic we're seeing that going on and how that has an impact on crypto back mortgages. They are right now currently in designated zip codes they're really projected on areas that they think the market's going to stay stable for the next five years in the U.S. but they are so expanding across Europe and as you know they talk about these mortgages from the borrower's perspective it looks and feels like a you know conventional mortgage that you're going through so by the time you're into servicing you know the borrower's making payments they're paying their insurance and taxes pretty much follows the normal life cycle. They're really kind of targeted for these products at you know higher end clients that are trying to utilize this for tax shelters on their crypto sales and benefiting from that exposure to the additional class asset class are made available available for them. It also you know through these programs it does provide more liquidity and mortgage space and additional options for the borrowers when they're looking at mortgage lending options. So taking a look over in the U.S. space. Thank you Marvin. Yeah we can go ahead and move right past the other side. You know this first article that I've got on here it's coming out of CoinDesk. It is also about moon mortgage as well but it focuses more of hey what are they actually doing in the U.S. So you know moon mortgage has a crypto lending platform and they've raised 3.5 million in their first seed round. The funds are going to be used to finance moon mortgage's lending product which is called crypto mortgage and crypto mortgage can provide up to 100 financing for investment properties. They are launching soon for home buyers in Texas, Florida and Colorado but again as we mentioned they're starting to spread out across more areas in the U.S. Moon Mortgage's cryptos assets are stored with crypto custodial form Anchorage Digital which is a U.S. federally chartered crypto bank. Anchorage Digital Bank is the first crypto native bank to receive a charter from the U.S. Office of the Comptroller of the Currency. So again some very great information but it focused more on moon mortgage and what they're doing here in the U.S. And then the second podcast that we have up Blockchain and Mortgage Lending Tony Garantano the founder of Progress and Lending presents the Lending BuzzCon podcast. He interviews Soren Sarkar the founder and CEO of Nexvel and they discuss the use of Blockchain and Mortgage Lending. It's a fascinating discussion. They're discussing why lenders are ready now for Blockchain mortgages and some of the topics that they talk about is because you know Blockchain is designed for distributed info it removes those intermediaries that are no longer required. The elimination of monetizing data by these intermediaries and in examples of like a servicing loan transfer I thought he took a very interesting perspective. He talks really about how the data essentially belongs to the end borrower and not to the company it's transactional data. And in the example of a servicing loan transfer that transfer process requires the auditing of the data the re auditing data the repeated review of records both physical documents and data as a loan is being transferred. And these costs are embedded in the industry and are ultimately passed on to the borrowers for the cost of their loan at the time of funding. And so the podcast really is going into the depths of how moving into Web 3 technologies into Blockchain not only can save money for the lenders by streamlining the process but it can also reduce the overall cost to the borrowers because those costs are ultimately passed along. Also in the podcast they talk about the current state of the technology in the mortgage industry. We're the kind of focused on how the industry players need to come together to accept the technology into the ecosystem. So this is going to involve players across the board MBA, GSEs, lenders, investors, title companies, you pretty much name it to come together whether they're coming together through consortiums or you know they're coming together and starting the team. We talked you know Mark and I were on a panel for the IEEE this week. We were actually talking about very similar concepts in that panel as well. If you get the opportunity to take a look at that I recommend you go out and take a look at that video as well. Marvin our last slide. So as usual here's a copy of the overall wiki for the mortgage industry subgroup. Again these articles and previous ones are all accessible from here as well as we talked earlier and you can find in the chat the links that are posted for where the YouTube videos are stored. We actually do store a copy of the videos up on the hyper ledger site as well. Thank you guys very much and that's our presentation for today. I'm going to pass it back over to Marvin. Hey thank you James. As always we kind of end with the future agenda topics. I wanted to let people know we're probably going to be taking December off due to the holiday but we will pick these back up again in January but in the interim if there are any topics that you'd be interested in or any questions or comments you think we need to discuss just please email those to us and we can include it in the next round of presentations. So with that I wanted to say thank you to everyone. Here's our contact information that's included on this slide if there are topics or questions that you guys have please feel free to reach out to anyone on here. Please take a look at the presentations that we reference or the podcast that James was talking about and as we get access to the IEEE information that James mentioned we'll send that out to the group as well. And with that have a good day everyone. Thank you very much.