 Thank you very much for keeping it to eye in the morning. It is a very fine Monday morning. If at all you are just joining us, you are just in time for the next conversation of the day and the last conversation of the day right here on Y254. My name is Ram Aguco. Thank you very much for keeping it to eye on Y254 TV. Imagine. Well today let's have a conversation on alcohol and addiction. This has been an issue that many people fight and in different ways we all fight alcoholism and addiction with family, with friends but today we are having this conversation with a reverend. That is reverend Lawrence Mbugwa. He is from Emmanuel Anglican Community Church in Dolly. That is in North Carolina. Thank you. Thank you. He is someone who is here to give us his story about this conversation. So mention that you will be part of this. Send us your thoughts, your questions as you continue. The hashtag is why in the morning at Ram Aguco and at Y254 channel. This conversation is going to be interesting because as we hear the story of a reverend who is talking about alcohol, why did he choose to start a conversation like alcohol and addiction for reverend? It's not something that is common. Well, I want to thank you this morning and all Y254 KBC crew and those who have invited me this morning to come here so that we can have a discussion on alcoholism and drug abuse in Kenya. I am so excited and happy that we can even address this topic. I came to just like this topic because I'm a recovered alcoholic. I was not born a reverend. I was not born soba. So I started drinking at quite an early age because my parents were making the local traditional brew. We call it moratina in Kikuyu. So I could be the one who was being told to prepare it, to prepare the water and the sugar before it started to ferment. So as I prepared from the first step of it I could take a sip, then when I put it on the guard so that it can be brewed, after a few days I could also sip it. And when the old was us would come and also want to taste whether the beer is good, I would be told to go and get it for them. So my parents, my father instead of preparing me was preparing me a drunkard without his knowledge. And so this got into me and even when I went to school and did school certificate, unfortunately my parents died when I was too young. And I was mad with God at that time because my parents, my dad and my mom they had a span of just one year before they joined the heavenly kingdom. So at that time I was around 16, 17 and I became mad with God and mad with life. And so I started drinking and I started a life that was not worth it and I did it for like 10 years. Drinking for 10 years? Not same moratina, I graduated from drinking moratina to drinking cana. And I became like a vagabood as you call them. But the fortunate thing that had happened to me is my parents died when I had already done my school certificate. The secondary one? Yes, the primary one. The secondary one, I had graduated from secondary school and my life became a life of an alcoholic. And one day after 10 years I had an experience that I felt I'm not doing the right thing. So I decided, it was that first of December 1985, I decided that I am going to have a life change. And I decided to stop drinking. I said I will stop even smoking bang because I would smoke now and then. So I decided to live a sober life. And because I didn't go to a rehab, it became like a battle in itself because my body already had a little bit addicted to alcohol. So that withdrawal was a problem? Yes, the withdrawal was so tough I didn't go to a rehab. But after one and a half months, that is 86, 20th of February 1986, I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life. And from that time, I tell people that is the praying truth. Jesus became my hero because I became a new person. Just as the Word of God says that he who is in Christ is a new creation. I became a new creation. I cannot tell you how it all came but I recovered and I started preaching in our local church. I joined the youth group. And the journey became very, very exciting. You started preaching in 1986? 1986. The journey became very exciting as a youth. And after a while, that is, after a number of years, I cut a long story short, I got an opportunity to go back to school. And this opportunity opened a door for me to go to the United States of America. And I went to seminary there. Then in 1998, I was ordained as a deacon in our church. And then after one year, I was ordained as a priest. And now when I joined ministry, I felt the urge to reach out to these young men and young women who are addicted to alcohol and drugs and who are in a hard position because they would want to live the lifestyle that they are living. But because of many things and many issues of life, they cannot be able to do it. So I started this work and started talking with them and engaging them one on one which I even do it up to today. I'm one of those priests who can sit with drunkards and talk with them, not argue with them, but try to understand. You connect a bar? Yes, I do. And a club and sit there? Ah, I can. As they pour the drinks? And by the way yesterday, which is Sunday because we have started another program, Value of Hope. And we went to a place here in the Thogoro. We sent a young man there. And he was preaching outside the pub. And the owner of the pub told the guy, don't preach outside there. Come inside. Come inside. And I will give you 30 minutes to preach to these people. And those 30 minutes, the report was coming that they were not drinking. He was not selling to them. And he was able to share with them. Now, Reverend, you have quite an interesting story. And let's get deeper into it. You've talked about going through getting mad with God. Yes. And for someone out there who is watching you, someone is mad at God right now. Yes. So pissed. They're saying maybe God doesn't love me. Maybe God doesn't care for me. What is it that made you not to stop getting mad at God and actually change your life to actually become a reverend? Where yet once you're mad at the same God? What I did is that when this issue or the reality of life came to me and I realized that I will be the rusa. God will never lose. I will be the rusa. And I started listening within myself. Calling myself in places where I can listen out and see what has 10 years of drinking done to me. What has 10 years of smoking bang done to me and my life. I started to listen with myself and my heart. We say it calling a meeting within myself and evaluating my life from the time that I left school to where I am right now. Being mad at God does not help me. What about if I can reconcile with me? And then I had a very praying mother. A very good praying mother. She was praying for us when she became sick when my dad died. She started praying and I could remember in my mind those days in her life when she was on the edge of leaving this world. She was praying to God and asking God, God, how do I live my children? And me being in a drinking mood I could tell her, Yes, you are going but you are going to leave us in the hands of God. You told her that but you were drunk. Yes, I was telling her yes you are going to go but you are going to leave us in the hands of God. And surely God is a caring God. So he heard those prayers and I have told you it was 31st of December 1985 when I realized that I have to listen with myself and see that the way that I am going I am heading to destruction. Now after drinking for a decade or so, how did it change your life, that life of drinking and addiction to drugs? How did it have an effect on your behavior and your character as a person? Actually this is the praying truth even those who are watching out there. I had turned out to be the young people you see around towns speaking very good English and learning from bar to bar and being able to talk to people who have money and you know to survive without a job and survive with alcohol you have to be very smart. And that is why you see this, some of these guys who are addicted to alcohol and drugs they are very smart people. For you to survive in alcohol you must be very smart because you don't have a job and you need money to get a drink. So you have to be smart so that you can be able to tell people stories. These are some of the things, the survival mode. I knew the survival mode at that time and I would make contact with the various people of influence even those people who are around Kiamu at that time if they can remember very well some of them I would even pop into their offices and talk sense to them and I would come out with money from What would you be getting into someone's office to tell them? I could go even to the DC's office and tell him you know I am a poor guy you need to go to the poor man's box and he would ask me who told you there is a poor man box at that time and he would come out with something because there are those funds out there. I could go to our local politicians and I would tell them about the forthcoming erections and what is going on I would get also from them so a smart guy and also I could do odd jobs here and they are just to get money to go and get the next drink. But the men who tend to go to stealing cornmanship, buglery and they get into illegal activities to get money just to go and drink. I thank God because God protected me because of this day to tell them that you cannot be able to survive on that because it's wrong to steal from others and I did not go into that position of stealing but I steal in them I could also advise them that this is not something that is worthwhile You had your way of getting money Yes and I wonder how a politician will accept you because aren't you drunk when you're knocking at that office Have you ever seen drunk people dealing with politicians? They are more less like them They are intertwined They are intertwined When somebody is going through stress they normally tend to say I need a drink Was that the same case for you? I don't want to say that was the same case with me because before you get into drinking there are so many people with various reasons on why they tend to drinking They are those who are social drinkers The social drinkers they just take it for fun They are those who cannot do away with it They are addicted to it They wake up The first thing they want to get into is not a cup of tea No, they first start with a cup of water because they had learned previous night they were so drunk So the first thing they will ask for is for a glass of water or a bottle of water Then the next thing not something to eat but it will be now something to drink which will be alcohol and that is a stage very, very, very important to note when you start to be addicted that you can do nothing without a glass of alcohol in the morning you are getting into trouble Another thing that I would want to mention to you is that one drunk person affects so many people those around him affects the family affects the neighbors affects even the rajas society because one alcoholic one addicted person in the real sense of addiction he affects 15 people just within his circles and this effect can be either directly or indirectly and for you let me talk about how it affected you first of all before I talk about your family and friends did it have any effect on your body on your health on your well-being as a person Yes, it had my health I did not go to the hospital because my health was bad but health wise you could see even in yourself that this person is having a problem How are you? I was something that you cannot be able to look at but God has given you earlier you said that God has restored that which was lost but I got saved when I was 28 years old and my dreams had been shattered because of alcoholism but when God when I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour of my life right there the day that I did that that was 20th of February 1986 that was a day that I had a transformation of my mind even of my heart because I had an experience in itself I tell people even when I preach that I cannot be able to explain to you what I felt because it was around 7.30 p.m. in the evening and I was walking along along our rock or rural road and I had an experience Jesus Himself appeared to me I tell people I cannot be able to explain this to you You saw Him? Yes He came to me and Lia and told me within a very audible voice that the love that you have never found in the world is the love that I'm going to give you You are saying you saw Jesus Christ one on one? Yes, I experienced it I tell people I cannot be able to explain to you or write it down to tell you the experience that I had but I had a personal experience with Christ What do you mean when you said you had a transformation of the mind on the spot? I started realizing the life that I was living was not a life worthy the God who was calling me So what did Jesus tell you? He told me that He will take care of me He will take care of me I will love you the madness that you had and you had asked this question how was I able to transform the madness and the goodness of God So when Jesus appeared to me and I accepted Him as Lord and Saviour of my life there is a scripture of a story that is given in the Bible of about Jesus when He was elected there were two disciples that were following Jesus when they were going to a house there was Curiopas one of them was named Curiopas The Bible says was unnamed His name was not mentioned in the Bible So when Jesus appeared to me I was reminded of this story and I was convicted that this other person whose name was not mentioned in the Bible was you and any other person who would want to follow Christ So when I accepted Him as Lord and Saviour of my life I was spirit filled and mind you I was not going to church No one preached to you No one preached to me but I knew the story because in my school certificate when I was doing my religious education we were taught the Bible very deep by Roman Catholic priests in Kanunga High School they taught us deep Bible I'm looking at Revenant how that experience was for you on the road what about the environment how did people see you That is why I was getting to Those around you notice that there is something going on with this gentleman That is what I was getting to Mr. Lam When I went home I told you it was around 7.30 Yes When I went home and told my people or my brothers and my sisters and those in our compound what was going through my life they started saying this man has done to be insane What I was talking about they said I'm insane you look like a mad man what you talking about can you remember what you are saying good things to come even in my own personal life good things that will happen even to our family good things you are speaking that this will happen in my life this will happen then the reality is spoken of today because they stopped saying that they saw this is something that is not just for today this is something that has happened there is a transformation so I changed I started taking now even taking care of my own personal hygiene that is cleaning myself even where I would sleep I started making my bed just the small things of life I started working So can someone have a life changing experience without going to church and can that this person who is watching it today come out of alcohol addiction and get into Christ and how do they do it Yes you can Yes you can be able one thing is to admit that you have a problem because remember I told you 31st of December 1985 I accepted that I had a personal problem with Akko and any other intoxicating thing that I would take the first step just as you say that the longest journey starts with the first step the first step which is the hardest the hardest is to admit I have a problem and I need help so when one accepts that I have a problem and I need help that is the beginning of a journey in itself the other thing that one takes is the step to say that the people of influence people who have been leading me into what I am doing the people I have been relating with I have to change my company those are the two basic things agreeing and then leaving some of the company because change your friends because some of the alcoholics the most people who influence them are the friends and when they are drunk and they get home they say I will leave this drink I will leave this because it is leading me nowhere but when they wake up the following morning and they join with the other friends they go back they go back to the same old problem that is eating them how can someone stop taking alcohol especially when someone who is you have been used to the culture of if I am stressed I take a drink is it possible to come out of that norm yes it is how do you do it by first agreeing just as I told you just accepting that I have a problem okay then still the same first accept you have a problem and this is where now I was coming to tell you also that over the years this passion of these people I just did not create it in myself the Lord again put this burden on me to help people to help these young people because when I was recovering I did not have a wife I did not tell you that the years the first years of my life from 1986 from when I left school and started now into a life that is not worth the living that people would find appropriate even the girlfriends that I had when I was in high school they came to a point where they could not even relate with me they left you some of them even told me personally because you never had of being somebody I have left you to go to somebody else and family what about family even family had a burden on also me you know because you know my parents had died my brothers and sisters were ashamed of my life but it came to a time where they accepted me back when I accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior of my life you know when you go for family meetings family gatherings how do people I don't know if it was the same whether you had family gatherings but how do people receive you in most family gatherings that I have attended the drunkard one doesn't have a say in anything those times I didn't have a say but now most of the family matters now you have a say I'm not the order I'm not the order of them but not much can be passed without the resolution and the idea from the library but back then whatever you said it didn't matter even when my mum was being buried you know when they came to KBC at that time there was only KBC radio to announce the death to announce the death there was people who are doing it in the vernacular language my mother would be told is the mother of this and this mother in law to this and this person and among many others I was among many others among many others I was among many others and now they accept you yes because I accepted myself just as I said the first thing is to accept accept that you are yourself wow you mentioned something earlier on about the upbringing that you had when your parents used to make the muratina yes what would be your word of advice for a parent who is watching you right now they drink and how that parent affects or influences their child that is one of the most bad things that a parent can do to a child don't give them or don't even show them do you drink near them they shouldn't because you are raising up a drunkard generation and I without due respect you can see the problem that we are in right now some of the alcoholics who are now grownups if they can tell you every weekend some of them there was a culture here and I don't know whether it's still here parents would take their children to Nyama Choma joint they would ask for beer and ask soda for children as they wait for the meat but these children the daddy or the mum would go to the toilet they would see some of these drinks when the mum has left the table they would see what is this juice of daddy and I tell my people even those who are watching from the diaspora please do not put alcohol in your homes let me give it a top that's your camera I tell those in diaspora even when you go home don't take beer in your homes because you will raise up a generation of drunkards without knowing because right now in Kenya you might disagree with me but in Kenya this generation was raised who thought that they are giving ratio to their children weekend ratios but it has turned out to be a pandemic and by the way I started talking about alcoholism in the year 2007 here in Kenya nobody was talking about it I was telling them now they were talking about AIDS that was killing people I told them even in public forums because that is the first rehabilitation I started in Kiambu a priest called Keregiti in five years time here in Kenya we will be talking about a pandemic of alcoholism here because it will have affected our country and sure enough now the cry especially in our Mount Kenya region the cry there go to Moranga go to any place within the central part of it you will see drunk people even at this time we are talking about this as early as now it is even late others have gone back to bed are sleeping on the side of the road because of alcoholism alcohol when you you say parents go out with their kids and they go and they they sit on the table and the kids sit on the opposite table they take alcohol the kids take sodas how should an outing be for a parent who is watching you right now if they want to go out with their child what should they do? I would urge even as the community let us start up non alcoholic places where families can come without even without having alcohol those would be safe places I don't mean it's bad to take children out but let us find places where it's an non alcoholic environment and we will be able to save a generation do you at any point say that however you are raised by your parents you feel like we can do better as a generation the way we are raising our kids now this yes we can last week I was preaching somewhere and I asked parents whether they were excited that schools are being closed again and they said they are not because the freedom is not there they are saying they are not because we have abandoned our responsibilities although our parents brought us how they knew it they could not even allow us to drink but you see we were drinking because they were sending us they were enabling us by sending us to do some of the jobs that they were supposed to do as grownups but they did their part they took responsibility many of our generation did not go to boarding schools and I now say boarding schools are bad parents had taken their own responsibilities these days many parents have taken responsibility to teachers you transferred your parental responsibilities to your teachers to take care of your child not many people can like this when they close school because now they have closing school and by the way today I want to wish all those candidates who are sitting for their exams I am wishing them well and I am praying that we will also have people who will prepare a ground for them that after secondary schools there were things that will be done so that we cannot only be talking about making jobs for this generation but teaching them on how to create jobs for themselves yesterday I had a preacher who said something that really touched my heart he said these days the people who are making it are the people who fail in exams because when you fail you don't have any papers to go and show so you go and create your own job but those who pass with A's and B's they are the ones who are out there drinking and trying to fight jobs because they passed their exams and I said wow that is something but I am not telling them not to do good but it is also good to be creative and know that there is hope we have talked to the parents let's talk to the youths there is a young man watching you right now who says that I just cannot drink alone or I can't stay alone and not drink well young person out there if you see me see a testimony of what God can do to somebody who say I have found a purpose in my life and in my work for my future because your future young person is in your hands it is you who can be able to take it to make it or it is you who can be able to break it so you better make it than break it if someone wants to indulge they say this is a quote from the Bible you are a reverent enjoy your youth while you still can which is a verse many refer to but they forget the last one there and then they say in the Bible it says that a little wine is good for your stomach that was Timote because they are being advised by Paul there are many youths out there who are watching you right now reverent and they are wondering okay the reverent is too old to tell us about how our life is right now what would be your piece of advice to someone who feels as though you do not understand him you do not connect with him because that is the complaint of many young adults many teenagers that you don't understand my position you don't understand what I am going through I am justified to drink the way I am drinking because I have my own stress one thing they need to understand is yes I am a mad man and they should not disregard that I was also young like them wow you also there where they are I was also there where they are we had our own excuses because as I told you I did my school certificate in 1975 and at that time you could apply for a job and get a job you could write an application and get a job but in 1978 the crisis of joblessness got into our country and president gave an order that 10% every company had to employ 10% of their staff and they did that when they were employed the 10% there were school certificate rivers they would be employed as cleaners and subordinate staff and the director was one of those people who had started before education the director of a company the director of the company especially Parastatos they were appointees of the government so this young people they started leaving those jobs so joblessness did not start in the era of president Uhuru Kenyatta he started back then it started way back in the 70s it was there but we as the young people many of us started thinking otherwise we turned into what others have turned into today started making cheap alcohol started making changa started selling it and it became a pandemic just as the way it is until a time also the attorney general then who was attorney general who is still alive he can testify he said that he is going to legalize changa he legalized it and we could sit comfortably in those houses and we could drink it executively we could say executively and it went down you know the conception of changa went down so what some of these steps if we all work together and believe that we are in this problem all of us together whether it is the church whether it is the youth whether it is the government all of us we work together as a team and address this just as the way we had started addressing COVID-19 all together in this in the world we can be able to overcome it but if we bring we put the game there that these are old people they don't understand it and then we old people we started bringing these young people that they are doing it you are too young you have not seen life we will fall into a pit is there all of the church especially when it comes to removing people from alcohol and addiction there all of the church is very minute the church has done nothing most churches have done nothing they have done nothing concerning these people why do you say so because I am a witness of this have you ever seen many churches with the programs reaching out to alcoholics and addicted people I am asking you this question we don't have a question how many churches have you seen addressing this issue when a drunk person gets into a church how many have you seen I have seen the catholic church tries to do it the Anglican church sometimes tries and I am not saying that because I am an Anglican but they try they try but not not as we are supposed to do and to me I would say just I have mentioned to you Mr Lam that if we all do this together all this we do it together collectively every one of us take responsibility that this is our problem let's see how we can be able to handle it we can be able to fight this war together so we need more engaging programs so the youth and the community yes, yes also bring them bring them even on life those who are drunk let them talk themselves out wasi me shina zao zote wasi me shina zao zote wagi na tukai nawao kama bili nimeo na wumeka nawa re kua nawao nbelendi kawin people who are passionate for them to show them that there is still hope but still let's say nakunya tukidogo start conversing from there start the conversation from there that is where you start the conversation an example is in the programs that we have held there is one man who makes me very proud very very proud that young man I went and picked him from the streets of kiyamu he was so drunk and I met him in aroundre store and he was speaking to young girls who are doing the customer service there he was interested you can see a young man who is interested in those girls but the girls were telling were making fun of him there is nothing you can be able to handle you are out and I felt it and I said young man these young ladies are telling you the truth none of them can accept you the way you are but no one gets into addiction knowingly you find yourself addicted it all starts with the first drink it all starts with the first drink we have so many addicts out there who do not even know that they are addicts so back to the story of this young man before we lose it when this young girl started confronting him I talked to him and told him in case what young man tomorrow if you allow yourself to go to a rehab these young girls will one day accept you he said really? and he walked with me to a rehab we called it grace house today that young man he does hoking work in kiambutown sales what do you call this? earrings small things for redis all these things and guess what today he owns a car of his own loan free loan free loan free and he is so smart that even he is smarter than me I tell him I want to be like you when I grow up because of how smart he is this day I want us to finish this conversation and I want to give you just a minute or so give a final word a parting shot a take home for someone watching you today I would want to tell all of us that in the book of lamentations chapter number five in verse one Jerusalem there was a cry of what was going on because they had done evil in the eyes of God Jeremiah was preaching to God to restore Jerusalem guess what God had the prayers of Jeremiah we are in such a mood now we are crying for the restoration of our generation let us hold on let us not throw away everything there is hope there is hope in Christ Jesus who can handle you as a young person and I mean as a young person is a young girl a young man who has fallen into this habit we call it habit that has ruined your life and has tried to ruin your future I want to tell you make a decision just as I said earlier the first step can help you and you can have a future God bless you thank you very much Reverend it's a pleasure that is reverent Lawrence Mugwa Emmanuel Angelican thank you very much in North Carolina it's a pleasure having you Reverend I have so much but because of time we have to end it thank you so much for coming and you've said about Jeremiah one word from me don't worry about tomorrow Jeremiah said for I know the plans I have for you say it's a long time plans for hope in the future plans to prosper you and not to harm you so don't go to that bottle we want to see you having a bright future and remember don't drink and drive well it has been a pleasure being with you today I've had a fantastic time with the Reverend I hope you too have had the same make sure that you keep commenting on our social media pages the hashtag is why in the morning at Ramaguko and at Y254 channel well that's up thank you so much for being with us for everyone on behalf of everyone who made this show a success my producers my directors everyone we say thank you so much may God bless you may God bless the work of your hands my name is Ramaguko keep it Y254 this is why in the morning