 Kia ora kato, nā maia haere mai, greetings and welcome to this month's EHF Live Investor Session. Edmund Hillary Fellowship is a Collective of Entrepreneurs and Investor Changemakers who want to make an impact globally from Aotearoa, New Zealand. These are informal sessions where we interview the investors and we ask them what their plans are to do in New Zealand so that when they leave the 60 minutes you have a good sort of feeling and understanding of who they are as a person and what they will be doing and so that you can just contact them directly when we've left the session. So Sean will leave you with his contact details after the session. And so this month you're going to hear from Sean McGrale. He is calling himself a recovering entrepreneur and he's also now an investor with Golden Seeds. So we'll get Sean to introduce himself shortly and tell us all about his paint night and a few other activities that he's been doing prior to being an investor in the New Zealand ecosystem and also back up in Boston where he's based now. So just a quick reminder that it's been recorded and so you can stay muted but I think because we're a nice small group we can unmute to ask questions so feel free to ask any questions as we're going along or you can put them in the chat if you want me to ask them on your behalf. But firstly Sean welcome and tell us a little bit about yourself. Thank you, thanks for having me. Well where should I start? I've lived and grown up in the Boston area my whole life and at an early age my mother was an entrepreneur. She had a lot of small businesses. You might call her a serial entrepreneur. She was never able to really scale anything but sort of I was in the trenches with her as free labour as a child if you will. And I was able to sort of witness sort of the struggles that small businesses go through to kind of start and grow the business so that when I get older and was in my late 30s a friend of mine and myself we started a business called Paint Night. If you're not familiar with it, it's painting and drinking at bars. Really simply we get a local artist who will stand in front of a crowd of 30 people who have never painted before and walk them step by step through a painting. The artist brings all the materials, the paint, the brushes, everything that everybody needs and everybody has a couple of glasses of wine, has a fun time, music playing. It's definitely not a class, it's more of a party and it's basically a silly girl's night out if you will. It's just kind of fun with your friends. And not really, some people think it's a college level art class. It's a little bit tougher than paint by numbers, but not much. So we started that in Boston in 2012. I'm not really sure if it was just going to be sort of a one-off event or really scale, we were able to sell out our first night and really kind of check that box of product market fit. It started to quickly scale. We basically put up 16 events on our calendar and within 11 hours it was sold out. So it was really quick finding that match. And from there we started to iterate on it and think about how we can expand it internationally. So we decided to become sort of a platform where any artist around the world would be able to run their business, their paint night business and license out our name. So we work similar to the way Uber or Airbnb works, that the artist, instead of having a car or a house, their talent of being able to paint and entertain a crowd is what they bring to the table. And we bring technology, customer service, marketing, consolidating, purchasing power to get canvases cheaper and paint and things like that. So we were able to scale that really quickly throughout the United States, Canada, South Africa, the UK. Anywhere there was an artist who wanted to use our name and our website, we were able to license it out. And it was a 70-30 split where the artist kept 70% of the money and we kept 30% of the money that came in to cover the cost of marketing and customer service and whatnot. We scaled it very quickly. So within four years we were doing 65 million in sales, US dollars. So we were number two in the fastest growing companies in the US at the time. We grew 36,000% during that timeframe. And a lot of our artists, they were first-time entrepreneurs. The way we positioned it was that we were their partner in business, but because they're getting 70% of the money, about 70% of the responsibility fell on their shoulders. So a lot of it was about coaching them on how to run a business efficiently and whatnot. And through that experience, a lot of things came into play of why my focus now is on supporting female entrepreneurs. Most of the artists were single women, often moms. 90% of our employees were women and 90% of our customers were women. So there were certain aspects that I found, it was sometimes easier for us to hire women as employees because some of the bigger corporations looked down on women who were coming back to work after five years off of raising their kids. So we were able to find really high-caliber women at a lower salary than they were really worth. Or they were overlooked by. So it was an opportunity for us, but I also thought it was like really unfair what was happening. And then I exited the business in 2017, sold to a private equity company and it became an angel investor associated with Golden Seeds which funds female-led businesses. And I think technically they look for companies that are doing about a million in revenue, but I often get involved with founders who are just in the idea stage up to about 500,000. So that's my sweet spot of helping new founders put up those guardrails and figure out how to scale the business quickly and make a go at it. That's really good to hear. It sounds exciting to a great company to work with paint night. So what's your connection to New Zealand? So what's drawn you to EHF and to New Zealand? Yeah, so in 2004 I was sort of in between careers and I found myself on, I took a trip around the world, which gave me the opportunity to come to New Zealand for two weeks during that trip. And of all the places I traveled to, there's sort of a sense that it just felt like home. I'm not sure if that's just because New England and New Zealand are sort of old English colonies, maybe a lot of cultural similarities, both English speaking, have rolling hills of green, but it just felt like home to me. So that was sort of my first experience with New Zealand. And then in 2018, my wife and my daughter, we took another trip around the world and I made sure that New Zealand was an additional stop, but this time was a few more wineries that were involved instead of any long hikes. So we both felt like this is a great place to raise a child and we were like, let's make a go at it. And we found out about EHF, it just really aligned with similar to what I'm doing here in Boston. I help a lot of startups here in Boston sort of mentor and advise them and occasionally write a few checks for the ones that seem to be able to make a go at it. But that's sort of what attracted me to New Zealand. That's good. And what would you like to do here in New Zealand? So what's your intention? Yeah, so very similar to what I'm doing here in Boston, which is advising, mentoring and investing in small early stage startups. Again, I generally are industry agnostic, but I like sort of the zero to, you know, I'd say 20 employees, a million in less in revenue, everything from idea stage on, because I think where I can really help out is with pricing, just general business plan, financial models, things like that. And even just coaching founders on how to grow a team and let go and really sort of delegate. So that's sort of my sweet spot and I hope to do the same there helping the ecosystem in general, sort of grow and prosper. Cool. So just speaking on that, on the people side of it, so culture and people, how do you get a thousand people to work together? Great question. I mean, a lot of it, I think it comes down to, you know, everybody talks about their corporate values and, you know, we'll put them on, paint them on the walls and whatnot. But they really need to be something that is sort of living and breathing within the organization. I do know a lot of people will go on retreats and write down their five corporate values, but then when push comes to shove, they don't live up to them. But we really use that, you know, every single day. And, you know, when you run into situations where you have a high performing employee but who is not living up to the values and sometimes you need to let that person go, you know, even if they're the number one rock star, because they're not living up to the corporate values. And that really, you know, sometimes as the founder, you might not be able to see what's happening with everybody down below. But when you do live up to those values, it really inspires the rest of the organization and, you know, you get a lot more credibility. You know, when you stay true to those values. And then it continues to attract other employees as well to the organization, because people will bring in their friends and family and, you know, it's about creating culture that's true and honest. And I think it's, you know, unfortunately, a lot of people put up these values and they're not sort of honest with themselves of what the company really stands for. So that's where I see things often go wrong. Thanks, Sean. So just getting back to paint night, whether this is your example you'll use or any of the other companies you've sort of been working with. So going from zero to 50 million, how do you scale your business quickly and what to watch out for as you grow? I think there's a great opportunity with technology to be able to infuse it. So, you know, whether it's a small restaurant or, you know, a paint night and some other businesses really kind of taking a look at where you can add technology to speed and scale things and help you manage things from afar. So, you know, for us at paint night, we knew that we wanted to open up, you know, globally because it's much more interesting to be in 300 cities than it is to be in one. But we were thinking about how are we going to manage these artists globally. So what we did is a solution was we would send an email, an automated email to all the customers immediately at the end of the event asking to rate the artists from a scale from one to five. And we would let the artists know that if they scored on average below a seven, they would be kicked off the platform because they were ruining it for everybody else. And the artist and ourselves would get the report at the exact same time. So it was just all automated. And it really helped us manage, you know, 1,100 artists around the globe without actually having to be there. So that's just one example of how we, you know, tried to think through of like how can we add technology where it's all automated. And, you know, it's boiled down to a simple number that's very understandable for everybody. And the artist felt like it was fair that it wasn't sort of some judgment coming from us that they were good or bad. We would tell them, you know, you just have to make sure the customer is happy and satisfied with their night out. And, you know, you'll be able to prosper on the platform. So, and that also helped us recruit people too because a lot of artists, when they would hear that, this is sort of all automated and they weren't going to be able to like maneuver or schmooze with us to try and stay on the platform. They sort of self-selected out from even joining up in the beginning because they were like, I don't know if I could deal with that scrutiny. So, you know, it worked for us. And there were multiple times where we would think like, okay, you know, we might only be at 100,000 in sales now, but if we want to get to 10 million, how do we get there and what needs to be automated? So thinking of that future state, we used to do a lot of current state, future state chalkboards and then write out what we need in the middle to get there. So keeping the entrepreneur head on then and for this growth. So in the sales and marketing side of the business, how can New Zealand companies grow to do 100x in the US? I mean, on one hand, it's for consumer products. It's, you know, in services, it's a little bit easier just because, you know, New Zealand is, you know, 2% of the size of the US. So 100x might not be that hard, but if you just jump over the pond to the US. But there's just a lot more opportunity in the US to capitalize on the population differences. And then also there's a lot more channels that will work internationally. So one of the growth areas that we had was Groupon here in the US. And at the time, the size of Groupon was rather large and sort of aligned with our target audience. So finding those right marketing channels for whatever your product or services can really open up a lot of doors. And one of the challenges is to find that right marketing channel. Yeah, true. And some of these topics, what I've done is gone through a broad range of topics so that if there are any that you want to go in deeper on, you can just ask those questions of Sean. But I just want to now switch it to you as the investor. So a question and sort of theme here is a good business versus an investable business. Why investors are not investing in your profitable business, right? It's often people think, oh my God, my business is so great, but why is no one giving me it the funds I need? Yeah, so I mean, I run into that a lot as an investor. People are kind of shocked that they're running a really great business and it's profitable. But they are always asking like, why isn't any investor, they talk to a lot of investors, says you get a great business, but nobody pulls out their checkbook. A lot of that just has to comes down to confidence that they have the ability to scale. So some people have a great pizza shop, if you will. But unless you plan on opening up 100 pizza shops, most investors aren't willing to write their checkbook if you don't present them a really broad vision of where the company can go. So it's not a knock on that you're running a bad business or that your business isn't good. It's just that what I would typically call a lifestyle business, it's probably going to be enough to support you and your family and buy a house and put kids through college, but it might not be what I consider an investable business just because it can't scale. And a lot of angel investors want to see 10x their money and they're playing with a portfolio where they have to absorb a significant number of losses. So you need a couple of home runs to kind of make up for that from a portfolio standpoint. So that's sort of the mindset that investors are coming to the table with. And it's not really a knock on your business per se. OK. So that's the mindset that investors are coming to the table with. Per se. OK. Thanks. Ashita, you've got a question. Yes. Thanks, Michelle. And Sean, I just came back from Boston to New Zealand. So good to see someone on the other side of the font. I wanted to actually ask you a little bit more about Golden Seeds and your work with female entrepreneurs because I see there's so much opportunity and there's a problem and there's so much opportunity in the market by focusing on gender smart businesses and startups. But I definitely see there's a little bit of a difference in how things are in US, how many investors there are to how the New Zealand market is getting more smart on this by communities like Shio getting more active. So would love to hear, Sean, how you found that with Golden Seeds and any advice for New Zealand as well. Yeah. So for Golden Seeds, one of the problems they're trying to solve is, you know, I think it's only 7% of the Fortune 500 CEOs are women. And, you know, I think it's even more abysmal of the number of female founders who get funding. But if you look at the studies, female founders and female-led businesses tend to outperform their male counterparts. So as an investor and, you know, just being greedy on a certain level, it makes sense to invest in female-led founders. Golden Seeds is one of the largest angel investment groups. It's got about 300 investors mostly centered in New York, Boston and Silicon Valley. There's a few others that are scattered throughout the United States, but it tends to be a fairly active angel group. Some of the things that would make it challenging for a New Zealand company to pitch to Golden Seeds is Golden Seeds only invest in US incorporated businesses. So you would need to set up some sort of footprint in the US in order to apply for funding from Golden Seeds. You'd have to make that decision pretty early on. Golden Seeds typically, you know, check sizes collectively within the group. I would say between 100,000 and 500,000 as a group. So if you're looking for, you know, a million or $2 million, you'd want to combine it with other either angel groups or other angels. Golden Seeds is struggling to try and decide if it's a very early stage organization or if they want it to be de-risked a little bit further. So if you go on their website, they do ask that you have a million dollars in revenue, which is actually a pretty high bar. So I think they're trying to figure that out. There's other angel groups out there like Pipeline Angels that invest in female-led businesses. Pipeline Angels is one of the largest that is specifically focused on funding female-led businesses. But then there's, you know, another 100-plus angel groups out there that are sort of gender agnostic, if you will, that are still worth pitching to. Any tips and tricks, then, Sean, on woman pitching because, I mean, in New Zealand, a majority of the female woman founders do miss out on getting their funds or they have to really bring quite aggressive characteristics of themselves up sometimes. What sort of advice can you give for a woman founder? I mean, I think one of the struggles is, you know, the Golden Seeds, I think, struggles with some female founders is I think they come in the door thinking that Golden Seeds is going to be a little bit easier because they are a female founder. But at the end of the day, it does come down to, like, having an investable business. We still kind of run them through the same, you know, criteria that you would for any VC, private equity, you know, what's the market size, what's the competitive landscape, who are the founders, who's the team, what's the ability to scale this, things like that. So I don't know whether some female founders might think they're coming into a friendlier environment than they are. I mean, on one hand, it is a little bit friendlier, but it's still fairly rigorous. And I want to say it's only like 7% of the companies that pitch to Golden Seeds get funded. So it's not, you know, 50% get funded or anything like that. It's still pretty selective criteria. And, you know, I think some of the same pitch tips and criteria that you would, you know, make sure that it's all in there, that, you know, your market size and you go to market strategy of a good solid, you know, plan for three to five years or you hope to take it, you know, still apply. So I don't know if there's any sort of special sauce, if you will. Thank you. Any questions from the full? Did that answer your question? Yep, Sean, it did. It was very useful actually to understand Golden Seeds a bit more, Sean. I'm just trying to think, I've been trying to get my head around the opportunity in New Zealand as well. And I think Sue's Reynolds from the Angel Association in New Zealand, I think they put a report of something like 18% of angel investment money goes to female-led startups here. So, and I'm seeing it's the usual pipeline and system bias issues. Pipeline how well-developed it is, how many good opportunities are you seeing? As you said, you're still being robust on quality. But you just don't see that many female-led companies. But there's also thinking through as a system what sort of conscious and unconscious biases we have when we look at these companies and how we evaluate startups. So thinking what can be done in the New Zealand context as well to grow this, to have more successful female-led companies here. Yeah, I mean, I know Golden Seeds does a good job of sort of outreach to the community. So we're always on university pitch competitions and other speaking series. So in Boston here we have a very good ecosystem so that it sort of cultivates people who might not necessarily have considered being an entrepreneur. There's these fun sort of pitch competitions where there's beer at the end and they're at university. So I think it introduces the idea to a lot more people who can then spin up an idea. And the fact that Golden Seeds is out there with a focus on funding women will bring more people to the table. So I'm not that familiar with New Zealand, the ecosystem in general of how you incubate these people from universities and whatnot. And if it's similar there. I do know from an angel standpoint the way that the angel groups are funded is a bit different. So in the US, you know, I'm as an angel typically pay an annual like membership fee to the angel group to get deal flow. So I'll see 50 companies come through Golden Seeds. And whereas in New Zealand, I believe that most of the time the money comes out of the capital fundraising piece. So that's a slight difference. So it's free to pitch to any angel group in the US if you're thinking about going overseas. Nina, do you want to just clarify any of that for sure? Yeah, sure. So for Enterprise Angels, we do have membership fee for members, but we do charge transaction fee for a few companies successfully raises capital. We're seeing a bit of a shift in the market at the moment and trying to figure out how our business plan works better because obviously venture capital funds come and they charge 2% management fee, which fully resources them and means they don't charge any fees. So if we don't step up our game, we're going to miss out on deal flow, but by the same token, we have a ton of compliance and stuff that we have to do as well. So it's just finding that right balance. The market is getting shaken up a little bit and that's with a lot more people coming into it across the border. And looking at diversity more and purpose lead businesses and impact driven funds are coming through a lot more now too, which is really good to see. Yeah. It's quite interesting on the deal pipeline actually and the agenda of, you know, like people that bring us deals. So we've got about 10% female investors and as part of our membership, pretty small. When you look at our portfolio, about 10% of our companies are surrounded by females. Interesting correlation. But in terms of pipeline, there's not actually that much more. There's not much drop off when it comes through. So the number of females that are coming to us raising capital isn't that huge. And I don't know whether it's the forum or you know how when there's job applications and the way that they're worded can put females off. So, you know, there's probably something in that. Yeah. Or the fact that it is, you know, totally male dominated. It's kind of a chicken egg thing. We need more female investors. Women founders. Actually, we're seeing more female founders in the purpose lead businesses as well. So for the impact game. So, yeah, it's really interesting that. Yeah. They say if you want diversity, you actually have to go and work for it and you'll get good results. Because, yeah, there is something they say about the job description, right? It's like a man or look at a job description and think he can do 90, you know, he can do 50% of it, but he'll go and apply. A woman will go, oh, I can only do 90% of that so they won't apply. So you're probably fine when it comes to getting investment. They want to be 100% ready first. Yeah. But I think if you do, if I think the impact fund, you might get more. With the purpose lead, you might get more woman investors. So therefore you might get more woman founders coming through with the company. So it should be great. Yeah. Yeah. And I also find services and products that are centered towards women also typically struggle to get funded as well because you're pitching to a group of investors who are predominantly male and they don't get it. So I mean, when I pitched paint night to investors, you know, at the end of the day, we were girls night out was typically in, you know, my target audience was 25 to 35 year old women, but most investors were male and over the age of 65. So they just didn't understand the business at all, which opened up the opportunity for other investors who, you know, could get past that to make money. I was just going to say, you know, like if you don't have the diversity of the investor group, then you're going to miss out on opportunities because, you know, a huge amount of the population that is under 60 and female, you know, have a huge amount of spending power and you're right. A lot of investors just don't get these newer things that are coming out. Laura and I just do welcome. Hi, did you want to ask Sean a question or put something on the table? Yeah, sure. Hi, Sean. I did some stocking on you and I see that you're also involved with tech stars that's been around for a wee while in Boston. I know Katie Ray and the original crew behind that. So I was just wondering, even in like ecosystems that are pretty mature like Boston, do you think these like incubators and accelerators still have a place as things sort of evolve? I guess New Zealand is a bit behind times, just for context, I used to run something called Lighting Lab, which is our original accelerator programme in New Zealand and the government is sort of looking at these programmes right now and trying to figure out what the plan with those will be sort of for the next decade. So I'm just sort of keen to hear your thoughts on that. Yeah, I do believe in accelerators, but they come at a very certain stage in the life cycle of a company. And, you know, sometimes if, well, there's a couple of things with accelerators, sort of because of why Combinator and tech stars, there's been an explosion of accelerators. So there's an accelerator for anything and everything. And there's probably some calling that needs to happen within accelerators. But if they're done right, I've seen them work really well, particularly if they fit in the life stage. And it's typically very early on. You know, oftentimes accelerators because they're taking a stake in the company. And if nobody's familiar, I think tech stars gives like $125,000 to the company and takes about 6%. Which if you're sort of in the idea stage, that's actually a reasonable exchange. But if you've got $2 million in revenue and you've de-risked it pretty significantly, 6% of your company is very high for $125,000 investment. And they're not going to be able to probably bring as much value to the table going through their 12-week accelerator program as opposed to somebody who's just starting off. So I do believe in them. I just think it has to be at the right stage. And particularly it comes down to the founders too. You know, a lot of founders think they're supposed to be able to do everything. But the really good founders know that they're really good at a very small portion and need to build a team. And accelerators can bring that team, advisors, mentors and connect them to other people who can really round out their team and help them get to the next level and really coach that founder up. So, but yeah, I think it's pretty early on. And you know, with tech stars, they do a really good job of actually giving sort of third party validation to companies. So as angel investors, often you're thinking, am I crazy for being the only one who's writing a check to this business? And when tech stars kind of like gives their stamp of approval, it gives you confidence that there's sort of this other group of people who are going along with it. So I tend to think it helps companies a lot, right or wrong. I mean, you know, I don't know if you're familiar with Theranos, but they got a lot of third party validation. And that didn't turn out well. At the moment, at the New Zealand market, we're getting a lot of people coming across from other countries, like StartMate in particular, and they're just providing a higher, that minimum amount, the input to the company's fund. And so it's pushing all the other accelerators having to try and find more money to give to the startups when they're coming into their incubators as well and accelerators. And then also they're able to, because they have more staff and resources, they're able to offer the opportunity to companies at different stages in their life cycle. So it makes it quite hard to, like some of them, we might get starting on the growth journey as opposed to that early startup stage. So New Zealand market is just going through this massive thing. Yeah, it's full. It's a full market. I think, you know, one of the things that I often see that entrepreneurs sort of make this mistake, they know that investors are going to do due diligence on them, but oftentimes funders rarely do due diligence on the investors. And they should hold investors to a higher standard of, besides writing a check, what do you bring into the table? So when you're thinking about, you know, signing the papers with an accelerator or an investor or an angel, really quiz them on what expertise that they have, what connections do they have, what networks do they have, how can they continue to help out the company, you know, in addition to just writing a check. So oftentimes, you know, I ran into this situation myself with Paint Night that we had an investor who sort of overvalued our company. And at the time it was sort of an ego rush of like, wow, we're finally getting the recognition. But when we would ask them for help on, you know, finding a CFO or something like that, they were like, I don't know, you guys go help, you know, go find it. So they weren't really helping us in areas that we needed. So definitely do either due diligence on accelerators or investors before you take the money. So, you know... Kia ora Sean. Hi, how are you? Very good, thank you. Hope that you can hear me well. My teeth are still on the mend. But thank you very much for sharing your great words of wisdom. But when you speak of, it's also very important to do due diligence on the investor, you're quite right. And I'd just like to explain a little bit. I hope you can hear me because it says internet connection is unstable. But yeah, I work with grass-reach entrepreneurs in particular Moldy entrepreneurs. Tunga Te Finoa of New Zealand. We're a bi-cultural society. Moldy is the Tunga Te Finoa, the people of the land. And from colonisation, a lot of business opportunities weren't presented to us because of we didn't have access to our lands that were taken as we couldn't get loans and what have you. Now things are changing. It's becoming more of a fairer society, which is wonderful. There's still a lot to do. But there's a lot more Moldy entrepreneurs wanting to get into business. The problem is how we operate is we generally succeed when we support each other. So for example, in our region of Taira Fiti, which is the East Coast, we're working with the businesses to help them understand what their idea is, help them get their business paid, help them marketing all the support that it takes to rip around support to get the businesses off the ground. The dilemma we're having is when it comes to any type of scaling or any start-up, nobody wants to touch us. None of the VCs, none of the funders, none of the government agents. It's just harder, so to speak. Not that they don't want to touch us, it's just harder to access capital for many Moldy businesses. So what we're doing is we're actually... Lily, the good part. Lily, can you hear us? Hopefully Lily can come back and we can... I wonder if Lily, if you turn off your video, we might be able to have a voice. Yeah. I mean, I think I can start to answer some of the question. So, you know, there's, as I was saying before, there's sort of lifestyle businesses and investable business, and both are good profitable businesses. And, you know, I'd be curious to learn more of what they're trying to stand up in particular, what types of businesses that they're trying to stand up. Lily, are you back? I'm so sorry. You were just getting to the juicy part of what you were trying to do. If you want to turn off your video, maybe the audio will come through clear. OK. That's one of the things we want to do, is beef up our Wi-Fi's in the rural areas. But no, literally, we're working as a collective to create our own funding mechanisms. We were literally linking non-profit with profit. So we've got one VC at the end of it that are waiting for our businesses to scale. But we need support at the beginning stages to help carry and drive and work with our businesses to get to that stage. But what we've found from previous experience is if our businesses operate alone, they don't work. But if they operate with us, and as I say with our collectives, you might call us business hubs. You might call us accelerators. I don't know what your word is. But we literally work with our businesses and push them through their early stages. So I don't know if your people or anyone you know has appetites to support these beginning stages. Because what we find, and what a lot of the investors come to New Zealand, they're focusing on all blacks, are ones that are all really great and want to scale them. But they're not helping at the beginning, nurturing our junior rugby players, getting them the oranges and the water bottles. And that's where the strength starts at the beginning. Because in Māori dam, you've got to build the relationships because we've been screwed over so many times and there's a mistrust. So it's imperative to build the long-term relationships from the beginning and then succeed together with the all-black. If that makes sense. It does. And you know, let's connect offline. I'd love to learn more about sort of the individual businesses. As I was saying when you kind of get cut off if I could really understand the businesses and whether they're lifestyle or whether they're investable. And for those that really want to grow from potentially a lifestyle business, I always use an example of like a pizza shop or a pizza restaurant. If you want to have one location, you're not going to find a lot of investors. But if your larger dream is to open up 1,000 restaurants, that's going to be more interesting to talk to investors and they might get behind that idea. So a lot of it comes down to like scaling and understanding the businesses better and why. And it just might be a mind shift and then there's nothing wrong too with saying, I just only want to open up one pizza shop. That might be perfect for the entrepreneur and we'll make them happy. I think it's a good idea that they shouldn't seek out venture capital funding. There can be bank loans and other sources of funding that they should look at, crowd sourcing or something like that. That might be a better avenue for what they're trying to accomplish. Just to quickly briefly, a lot of businesses are trying to go online and create online e-commerce activities to reach global audiences. So that's one of the main movements at the moment. Are they more of like trying to create a product and then put it online or are they trying to be more like an Etsy and being an e-commerce where anybody can sell their products online? This is both happening. Yeah. I think that you have Lily offline. I'm just conscious of our time. Yeah, they're out there. They're both sessions. Your email address, Sean, in the chat there so that people if they want to contact you, they can. And you and Lily can connect either by the Slack channels or email directly because they've got some great little e-commerce businesses starting down there. Yeah. Good. Thank you. So do we have any last questions for Sean? Anyone else have anything else they wanted to... No? All good? Great. Thank you, team. Thank you for showing up. And Sean, thank you for sharing your experiences and yourself and what you're planning on doing here in New Zealand. And we'll go back to our little bubbles now that we're in lockdown. And hopefully we see you in New Zealand soon in the new year perhaps. And thank you for sharing. And thank you, team, for coming. Yeah, stay safe. Thank you very much. Thank you. Bye.