 All right. Welcome, everybody. This is making a better community, better software, and a better world with Drupal diversity and inclusion, which we are some of. And we'll introduce ourselves. So I'm Alanna Burke. I do documentation training and developer advocacy at Amoezi IO. You can find me on Drupal.org or Twitter at aburk66 and on Slack at Alanna Burke. And my pronouns are she, her there. Hello. My name is Allison. I'm a marketing manager and communications and community person at data. My Drupal.org username is EKL1773, which is actually my name on a calculator. And my pronouns are she, her. And hey, I'm Ruby Sennreich. I'm one of the founding members of the Drupal diversity and inclusion leadership team, but I'm no longer on it, but Ellie and Alanna are leadership team members. And I work at a wonderful nonprofit called Moms Rising as the web developer and senior technologist. And this is Lenny. He comes to many of my meetings on Drupal.org and every place on the internet, except for Twitter. I'm Ruby G, Ruby J. I, and on Twitter, I'm just Ruby. My pronouns are she, her. And we want to acknowledge the land that we are on right now. I'm not sure who actually is supposed to lead on this one. We're all in a lot of different places. Of course, many of you are on Ohlone lands in the Bay area. Ellie is in Alexandria, roughly. Want to share that one? That's a nicotch tank lands in San Diego, Virginia, just outside DC. And I won't try to pronounce that and I won't make anyone else try to pronounce it Okanichi, where I live in Durham, North Carolina, which is land of many tribes, but one of them is the Okanichi Band of the Saponese nation, also Eno and Katapa tribes. And I live outside of Philadelphia PA on Lenny Lenape lands. So today we're going to discuss a few different topics, including why should we care about anything other than code. The awfulness that is 2020 and some of the effects that that's had on tech and our lives. We'll talk about why good intentions are not enough. And we'll talk about what we can do to make things better. I'm running like three different things right now to click and all. So first of all, why should we care about anything but the code. And the big reason is software doesn't make itself software is people kind of like so I like green. Now I worried about using this because I'm old and everybody else might not get it but Soylent Green is a movie that was made in 1973. It was set in the year 2022. And one of the fun things going on this picture is people are rioting because they want access to protein in their Soylent Green. And they're being scooped up by a big riot control literal actual scooper. It's pretty amazing. So the secret to Soylent Green. I'm just going to give you the spoiler is it's made of people just like software. So everything about us goes into our software. Now I'm going to go through a bunch of big concepts now and I'm going to go to them. I'm going to do it as fast as I possibly can, which might not be optimal. Do feel free to speak up if things are if it's too fast or there's terms you don't understand or this things are clear that kind of thing. Okay. I'm really having trouble running the screen and my notes at the same time also but I'm going to make it. So much as we would like there to be a single source of truth, as we often want there to be on our projects. There really isn't brains don't work that way. So when it comes to human brains there actually is no such thing as neutral. Everybody has values since software is made by humans. The software that we make has the values of the humans who make it in it. Okay, here we go. My assistant. Okay, so we all have values. And those are good right like I'm into good music. I like this kind of movie I hate that kind of new movie. I hate flash it's the devil. And, you know, those are all different values I have another word for values is biases right I'm biased toward good music what I mean what I think is good right that's a value judgment I'm making when I say that kind of thing. So, anything that we value is a bias for or against things like that, and everything that we make has our biases built into it. Ken Rickard gave a great talk at Drupal Europe. Last year in person. And one of the great lines he said was that monocultures often can't see their own biases. That's one of the most important things so individually it's hard to see our own but especially when we're immersed in a group of people like us. We don't recognize things as biases. And also, our brain wiring gets built up over time right so even if we have biases that we do recognize and try to change later, it's very difficult to change the way your brain has been trained for example to see white things as good and black as dark and bad does that kind of stuff well dark obviously but those are kind of innate brain wiring that even if we understand that that's wrong in certain perspectives it's very hard to unprogram ourselves. So of course we think the way we see the world, like I said, good music is obviously like the music I like is obviously the best music. Clearly, I'm right. We all see that ourselves the things that we like, and the things that we value are the things that are our biases, and we tend to amplify those and we're attracted to working with people who have the same values. So we can start to see how that happens, how that gets built up within a company we hire people who we think have good values and be great on the team. And what do you know they have the same ones. But we need to be aware that we're doing that need to recognize those biases, and we need to make sure not to center ourselves, right, because, just because we're surrounded by people who all reflect those values back at us doesn't really mean those are the only ones. And that's one of the reasons, and there are many, but that's one of the reasons why it's really very important to have broad representation in an organization there's different kinds of diversity right representation is one kind of diversity. So it's a wonderful thing if all the white guys who are the CEOs of your company are really thoughtful, and they believe black lives matter and they're very considerate, but there's still a bunch of white guys all sitting around the table right. So in that case, one of the things that's needed is representation. You can just have the wokeest white people. And think that you're all done. You actually need those different voices. Because what happens is, when we think that we're neutral and we center our views, we, when we bake that thing, those kinds of things in. We repeat that bias and and literally bake it into the tools that we make. So, this is a super quick story. People might remember a couple of years ago. We were trying to address the problem of too many white guys in tech. So they made an algorithm to screen resumes thinking it would take some of that personal bias that human bias out of the system but instead what they did was they built their own bias in, because they programmed this off the algorithm to be based on who had been hired at Amazon in the past, assuming those are like, these people are good programmers that we hired so we should hire more like them. You can see the problem in that logic, right. So the algorithm decided that anything that indicated that someone was a woman actually lowered their ranking. And the best indicators according to this algorithm of job performance where whether their name was Jared and whether they played lacrosse in high school. So, that just repeated the biases that were already unspoken, but were very much going on already in those hiring processes right. So, okay, we don't love it. Sometimes, but we accept it we all have personal biases again some of them can be good biases like bias toward racial justice right, we all have different biases. But, and we can deal with those on an individual basis. But then, there becomes a whole another layer of this problem because we're as over hundreds and hundreds of years and really thousands of years, we're creating institutions, social structures, government structures, based again on these values which the people creating them the founders of this country, a bunch of old bike guys all saw their own selves as the default as neutral as the ideal even right. So, once you bake that in, it leads to generations of injustice and then bias becomes a systemic problem it's not just about whether individuals are discriminatory. So this leads to structural inequality. This, well I'll get to that in a minute but as we can see in this sociologist talks about the distinction that I'm talking about between individual bias and systemic inequality. And here we have Rob McBride Drupaler and he's not an example of structural inequality actually, but he's wearing a great t shirt that illustrates just for one example again, we focus a lot on racial justice especially this year because number one is super freaking important but also it's the front of people's minds. And when I help people think about it. So he's wearing this great shirt that illustrates 246 years of American slavery, and then 89 years of segregation and then what do we have like 60 years since then and you'll know that the that green period the end doesn't actually have an ending line, because we're not really sure we don't know what this period is called yet, we're we're living this history right now. But to think that suddenly at the beginning of that yellow period right like oh slavery's over we're all good now. No, even at the end of that yellow period right and segregation isn't really entirely gone if you look around your neighborhoods around your schools and look around your companies right. There's still a huge amount of difference in opportunity. And not to mention the systemic issues so some families have had literally generations of wealth they've been able to build up other families were property for generations were treated as property, we're not actually but we're not able to build wealth, we're not able to build education and those kinds of things to pass on so we're not really starting in the same place. And that's really important to keep in mind, because again it's not enough for us just to individually try not to be racist or sexist or homophobic or whatever, you know, various things. We have to recognize those systems and we have to actively work against them. That's why you see so much lately people talk about anti racism because it's not enough just to know I'm not racist everything's fine, but everything's not fine right racism is still in there still doing all the stuff. So we have to actively work against it to be able to change it. I should not forget anything. Oh yes, there was this is a fantastic quotation from the same article that cited in there that says that systemic inequality will produce inequality, even in the absence of bias individuals. That is, that is just one of the most important things. We cannot just wipe our hands of it and say that you know I'm cool I'm not hurting anybody and so I'm done. Right. The, the systemic problems are going to continue. Because they're giving us privilege or taking privilege away from other people. Most types of privilege are not things that you can choose to opt in or opt out of you can't just be like no. Oh, well, you know, I'm anti racist so I don't want to have white privilege anymore. But in fact, it doesn't go that way I didn't choose to be to look how I do but I do and I have white privilege. You may not have chosen to have male privilege but you walk around in the world presenting as a male and you will get treated differently. So privilege is really uncomfortable for some people to talk about, because a lot of people feel guilty about it. And it doesn't help at all. You don't need to feel bad about having white privilege or male privilege or if you have straight privilege or various things educational privilege, coming from, you know, different kinds of families, different kinds of backgrounds. Sometimes we'll just get lucky and we'll get a great opportunity that other people don't have. There's no need to blame people or feel guilty about privilege but we do have to recognize that that it's there. And we can think about what we use it for. Everybody has some privilege and everybody doesn't have some other privileges. I can go through a whole list of things that I have and I don't have we're each complicated people. John Scalzi is a great science fiction writer, had one of his, well, of course, I think one of his best blog posts, he's on Twitter and actually you should follow him, he's awesome. But he had a great long one where he actually wrote out this whole thing it's not just there's a little quip here right but he has like an entire post where he explains the video game called straight white male. Where, oh, well, the game, the game's called the real world. And you can choose your difficulty setting right. And he says straight white male is the lowest difficulty setting there is, you can still lose playing on that setting. And you could still win playing not on that setting, but it's still the easiest setting on which to win. He explains it very well. I'm not really getting it as clearly as he does. Another example of privilege, when we were doing this talk at Drupal, or an earlier version of this talk at Drupal con. Another example of privileges that I didn't have to get up in the middle of the night to attend Drupal con. So I had some geographic privilege. Now I don't because I'm not on the West Coast with y'all there but actually kind of work nicely for me because I have a few hours to caffeinate. So it's really important to understand that it's not your fault. You have privilege. It's okay. I have privilege to but think about what you're doing with it. We have a very uneven playing field and one of the biggest problems is treating it as if it is even. So we cannot just act like everybody is starting from the same go same $200. We're all starting out differently. And if we want Drupal to be better, we have to work to change that we have to proactively work to change these systems we have to disrupt racism. We have to be feminist, we have to see who's being left out in various spaces and actively include them. So doing this work is a process anti racism especially but any of this work is a process it's not a destination there's never there's never going to be a time when you're all done. There's never going to be a time when your company is all done. There's never going to be a time when Drupal is all done like oh our community is perfectly diverse now and every single possible dimension and we're all done right. It's a process that we will always always be working on. Now we're going to talk about a few things that don't help or a few, a few ideas that people have. I'm just trying to maximize the screen there we go. A few ideas people have that that don't work like thoughts and prayers. They don't really help. Thank you Ralph. The first one is me and then I am going to actually shut up saying I promise. A lot of people feel like we all just need to be more tolerant and understanding and and tolerance isn't inherently bad, obviously, and we should be more understanding of people. However, being tolerant won't change all that structural inequality. Right. And the philosopher Karl Popper called this the paradox of tolerance, right, because they're there frankly just have to be limits to tolerance if you tolerate everybody. We end up including people who are excluding others. And we definitely see this in the Drupal community. Unfortunately, we do some, you know, it's a large community and any community, especially tech community of our size is going to have some people with problematic personalities to say the least. There has been harassment in the community and things like that. We can't tolerate everybody we can't just say everybody's welcome because if one person is harassing people in the community, and, and they are able to continue to participate. Then that's going to force a bunch of other people to leave. So it's actually not inclusive to tolerate certain attitudes. I made a little Venn diagram about this, which I love but I'm trying to go fast so I think you can see clearly the tolerance does not is not inclusive of intolerance. So another another fallacy is that open source is a meritocracy and everyone has a chance to contribute. So, while in theory, that might be true. It's really not. There's a lot of barriers faced by marginalized people in our community when they want to go and contribute. They may not have time in the day is pretty, pretty top one there. And that time might be taken up by childcare or elder care or, you know, cooking for the whole family doing yard work housekeeping homeschooling. There's a lot. If a employer can give you hours in the day to work on open source then that's probably an ideal. Another fallacy that we hear a lot is, let's just help women and tech first, and then we'll get to all of the other challenges, and we'll get people of color and tech, and we'll get LGBTQ people in tech. That's not really how it works. We have to make sure when talking about improving things for one section of the population that we're being intersectional about it that we're addressing the barriers faced by everyone. You know, if we do things to help women in tech, without addressing the additional barriers that are faced by people of color and queer people and trans people, you're really just improving things for white women. And some other people might ride along on their coattails, but this is why we can't just talk about women in tech can't just talk about race. We have to get there together. So, the wonderful academic Kimberly Crenshaw said, when feminism does not explicitly oppose racism, and when anti racism does not incorporate opposition to patriarchy, race and gender politics, often end up being antagonistic to each other, and both interests lose. Kimberly Crenshaw said, there is no such thing as a single issue struggle because we do not live single issue lives. So these can seem like really complex concepts but at the end of the day, it's just a matter of making sure that you're considering all of the identities that people hold when we're trying to make changes and improve things. Our next fallacy, but we have nice policies and good intent. Nope. Intent does not equal impact. So this actually we had a little situation recently where I really saw that privilege was blinding us to the impact we might be having. We wrote up a nice values documentation for the DDI leadership team and totally overlooked explicitly calling out LGBTQ plus folks in that document. And when we're talking about it, we're like, Oh my God, we just like blanked on it because so many people on this team are queer. And that was a super big sign of privilege to me. Like, Oh, well, you know, it's fine for us so. Well, so we have a correction for that obviously, but it has to be said out loud for the people who don't have an easy time out in society as they're true and complete selves. You have to explicitly say you're welcome here. Our intent was to be inclusive, but the impact was that people wound up feeling left out. So, with and learn. Another fallacy that's somewhat similar to what I was talking about previously. We have one really smart black person on our team. Let's put her in charge of diversity. This is something that we see happen over and over and over again. When someone joins a team, and they think, Oh, we finally have someone who isn't a white guy. Let's have them fix everything for us. And that's not how it works. We have this quote here that says pipelining diverse talent into workplaces that are not prepared to support them is a vector for re traumatizing traditionally marginalized groups. So basically, we don't want to expect marginalized people to do the work of fixing your problems. Not only do they generally not have the authority and the power to make change. They deserve to be compensated for any extra work they're doing. And some people just want to write their code and not have to battle colleagues about whether they have the right to exist. We still have this graphic talking about the difference between equality, equity, inclusion, and the reality that we see. So I think someone had actually mentioned this in the chat that diversity and inclusion and equity aren't aren't the same. And that's, that's very right and I think that this, this graphic goes around a lot and I think that it explains it better than any words ever could so And we're going to just leave it there. And now we're going to talk a little bit about 2020. This year has made inequalities so much more clear. And in many cases it's actually increased them. Most of us here today are employed. We, you know, have homes that many of us work from. Maybe you've been able to save a few extra dollars now because you're not commuting, you know, nobody had to fly to California today to be here at this conference. So maybe you're actually accumulating more wealth. Meanwhile, lots of other people have lost their jobs, have massive health care costs might be evicted or, you know, close to eviction, lost their homes to massive wildfires and floods. And all of these things are actually widening the gaps in our society. There's so much going on right now. We're living through a pandemic and a revolution with a critical presidential election coming up. And at least in the United States it really doesn't feel like things are getting better. I want to say here, unequivocally, that black lives matter. We also want to acknowledge that this movement has been going on for a long time, and it's going to keep going on, and that that work is difficult and important, and that change has to be made. On top of that, we want to acknowledge how difficult COVID-19 has been and how disproportionately it has affected marginalized people in the United States. Because of the pandemic amplify the already existing inequalities, like different access to health care, stable employment and housing. So this is a great example of how different issues intersect and can't be looked at in isolation. So, you know, when black lives matter, you know, became really in the forefront of the news a couple months ago. How did you respond, or how did your company respond. How did, if you're, you know, if you're employed in a company if you're not a freelancer, or if you're not hopefully unemployed, you know, did you say anything about it publicly on social media. If no, why not. If your company said something, did you feel like it was genuine. Did they do anything else, a donation in kind help. And what other small changes we can make as well, like the efforts to change master to main and get or blacklist and whitelist to block list and allow list. Have you made any changes like this suggested them at your workplace. If not, why not. Is it because you're not comfortable doing so. Think about these things and what other small changes you can make. I just wanted to note. Just wanted to say that these problems are big and may seem insurmountable but we are not in fact helpless and we can all make a difference in a variety of ways. Like banding together. I love the fish there. So all the little fish like get together and try to look like a big fish and they go eat the big fish it's anyway. All right, so we had a little quote here, it is not your responsibility to finish the work of perfecting the world, but neither are you free to desist from it. Perfecting is a pretty lofty goal there but you get the idea. Moving right along. Sorry, I just have a little slide difficulties there. I was a little back and forth myself. So one simple useful thing you can do is just notice who is in the room, zoom room or physical room or whatever. And who isn't and say something about it bringing it to others attention makes them aware and maybe they'll speak up in the future and invite others to that space. You can also hold space for and amplify the voices of others. So if you hear a good idea from a marginalized person on your team in a meeting, whatever, or in a forum, you know, in text, and you see that it gets glossed over, repeat it and give credit to them. Or if you noticed your marginalized colleague gets interrupted a lot makes space for them to speak. I have definitely appreciated that in some meetings recently myself. I'm a little quiet sometimes. And then be prepared to interrupt harassment and other problematic behavior. Next slide. Yeah, sorry. Also known as bystander intervention. So don't put the responsibility for dealing with a situation on the person who is being subjected to harassment, but support them, listen to them, especially if you're in say management role. Really take on some of that responsibility and help out. And talk to friends and colleagues about issues that matter to you. It's not unprofessional. It's not too political to care about each other. You should be an advocate. Also fix your recruitment and hiring. We often talk about the pipeline problem, which is not the problem. That's not in this presentation today, I don't think but I think you can look that up in one of our previous presentations anyway, stop saying there aren't women or people of color available to hire in open source or tech. We're here. We are often looking for work. I'm not right now, but others are. We do have a DDI careers channel in Slack too so that's a good place to head for that. You can't expect to hire different folks to your team if you don't have different applicants. So you have to improve how you market your job openings, how you interview for them and of course create a space that marginalized people will actually want to be in when they're hired. And our final awesome thing you can do is participate in Drupal diversity and inclusion. So we do a bunch of different stuff the top thing that you can easily get involved in is just joining our weekly meetings in Drupal Slack. We do some community building stuff we do social events we've got like a Halloween craft hour coming up at the end of this month. We do tea sessions boss whatever at these events. So forth. Yes, let's let Alana take over this last part. Sure. So our way is to get involved. You can visit our booth here in Hopin. We've been sort of in and out of the booth since there's only a few of us here this week, but come by and see if we're around or if you want to chat, and we're not there. Find us in Slack and and let us know. You can join our weekly meetings. We are Thursdays at 9am Pacific noon Eastern time in Drupal Slack in the diversity and inclusion channel. We just mentioned our regular social events that we've been having with tea coffee games crafts. We've got an issue queue on Drupal.org. We have our resource library. So some of you were sharing some links in the chat. We would love for you to go to our website and add those to our resource library anyone can add to it. You can find us on Twitter at Drupal diversity. And we used to sometimes have a slide in this presentation about who the leaders are. We don't have that anymore but I want to recognize Tara King in the chat is actually the leader of the project right now of Drupal diversity and inclusion so we're really glad they're here. We let them off the hook for having to do this talk because there's a lot of other stuff to do. Thanks for dropping their resources in there. And we have a whole squad and we're actually. We're hiring is not right. We're recruiting right now for for new members of the leadership team right now. So if you are interested in getting involved, please come to our meetings and you can find out how to join the leadership team and get involved in these other projects as well. So we went fast enough to get questions. Yay. So any questions or thoughts others. I noticed some of the chat was was really, really good. A lot of really good comments and stuff. Appreciate all of it. Does anyone want to add anything to that awkward silence till people ask questions I can handle it. Not afraid. I like to assume everyone is typing. Clearly, I think we might be able to invite people like video too. Can we do that? That's right. If people want to have your video on or just audio if you prefer. You can actually ask your question verbally. Thank you Jennifer. So you click share audio and video and then we'll see you and I will queue and we'll turn you on. Oh, here's a question. What are some recruitment strategies I can use to to increase diversity of my team. That is a very frequent question. My first response that everybody will add some different parts probably, but my very first response to that is to, if you were actually trying to diversify your team is you have to work on it before you're even recruiting. Think about whether you're an organization that people would want to join if, if the staff is dominated by like kind of one kind of person is someone else going to feel comfortable coming in and then like they fit in there. Is there is that group ready to work with people who maybe different who do bring different perspectives and things like that. So the first step is actually to work on yourselves. And especially to look at the leadership, certainly as a woman myself. If I'm ever looking at not just working with the organization but even like hiring somebody or looking even at services do I want to use this service. I always go to the about page and see who makes the decisions there. And if I don't see a lot of people who look like me, I don't necessarily walk away, it depends. But there's definitely a ding goes in the in the con column and not the pros, because I'm going to assume that like, I'm going to have to have meetings with lots of dudes where I have to fight to get myself heard. That kind of thing so work on the culture of your organization. First. And then you will, in fact, sometimes that even takes care of the next step because that will actually can help you have connections into more different parts of the community. There are specifically groups and there's a lot of websites now that are for recruiting. Once you get to the recruiting part where where you can find talent that are not all straight white guys for example. I know Alana knows a lot more actually about hiring and careers and I do so I'll toss to her. Yeah, no Ruby that's totally spot on. I was going to say something kind of similar that like you really need to look at your company first and see like, you know, why don't we have any, you know, women people of color, if that's what you're looking to hire or feeling like you're lacking like, what is it about our that isn't attractive enough that we haven't been able to hire these people that, you know, we would like to have in our company and see what's falling short there you know is it, is it your culture are you known for having like a bro culture or heavy drinking culture or is it your benefits you know do you not have good health care do you not have maternity and paternity or parental leave of any kind do you. Are you known for having extreme working hours and little flexibility you know things that would turn away people who tend to be more marginalized. You know, the people who tend to be caring for children or elderly people or family members. So, you know, things like that, and then, you know, in terms of finding people, they're, you know, we get the pipeline excuse of, you know, I, where are they like where are female black developers and you assuming that they'll just come to you if they're out there and they're qualified but that's not the case so you know really mentioned that there's specific sites out there so you have to go to where you're looking you know when I was job searching last year, I went out to like women in tech job boards and you know put myself on them and things like that so go where the people that you're looking for are. And we actually have links to a lot of those I know you're probably like give me the link to the place in our resource library we anytime anybody suggest one of those and y'all can suggest them to like there's a great yeah like I'm sure that one's in there right in the resource library so the library is organized with different categories there's a hiring category. And Adrian has a good suggestion which I don't know if it's related to this or not but it works in answer to this question and in general, which is getting to know different kinds of people. That's something that if you're if you're not having that in your life. It's a good thing to do but also be wary of not expecting marginalized people to do extra labor to educate you. But instead, think more about like, you know, if you look around and see that your group is very homogenous your friend group maybe there's other activities or cultural things that you're not going to where you would see different kinds of people so you can go to that don't expect people to just come to Max has a good question. There is a lot of defensiveness. And, frankly, I think the more progress there is the more defensiveness there's always going to be. And there are a lot of, there are actually some like sort of methods or trainings for how to work with people who are resistant it sort of depends. One of the biggest problems I actually see is people who people nobody wants to be told their racist right or that they're doing something racist we all hate to hear that. And so if you and so people take those criticisms very personally, even if you don't frame it that way right people will say, well but I'm not racist I'm not doing anything wrong. And that's exactly why I said earlier that like, no one has to be personally a racist for racism to continue. So one thing is to help people understand that you know privileges and something they've done wrong. It's just something that they got whether they like it or not. And there's a book which I only recommend for the most beginner level. Okay, but there's a book called white fragility, which really gets at that defensiveness stuff. It's also white fragilities can also be problematic in other places but my understanding is that it's very good for people who are at that level who are just like, you know, don't want to be racist, but, but are really uncomfortable being called out on racial justice issues. And there's also a lot of other good reading there's trainings, Kim Creighton on Twitter has been, or she's on Twitter but she's doing a set of trainings that I've heard are really excellent. She's done to and she has one more and you can sign up for these. These can be helpful for yourself if your colleague isn't ready to do that personal change stuff, you can do that, and then help work on the others and that's actually one of the most important things we can do like as white people is we got to talk to other white people about race. We have to make that normal to talk about make it okay to call out because as you can imagine, it's not very easy for a person of color especially a black or indigenous person to call those kinds of things out in the workplace just like when I see sexism. I'm in a male dominated environment. Most a lot of time, I'm not even going to say anything about it in the Drupal community at large there's a lot of garbage I don't even call out because then I worry that someone's going to not listen to me the next time I say something right. So when you have privilege, you can really use it with those other people to help people see. Adren says don't be afraid to be honest. If you have a trusting relationship with people, then then definitely do that bring that brutal honesty it really depends on the relationship, you know. I see we're running out of time. So in addition to thanking us yay us. A lot of other great people helped develop the reforms of this presentation. I don't want to jump too fast but I want to get to the other slides yell in mind if I just go right on. We're all easy to find once again, you can see and we're all in the Drupal Slack so if nothing else you can always find us in there. These are the many links that we cited or different resources we use in here and obviously you can't read these the point is go to our resource library where you actually can find all of these and add other ones. And goats are coming up next. So that's really cool. Do y'all want to say anything else in closing. Barrel through there. Thanks goats. There's mindfulness which as a Buddhist, I definitely appreciate and last year at bad camp I actually went to some of these mindfulness sessions. And I really, really appreciated having them. It's one of the many things that makes bad camp or really special and unique conference so Thanks to all the organizers of bad camp for bringing us mindfulness and goats party in the future. That's it. Cool. Thank you. Thanks so much for coming everybody. Thank you everyone.