 Thank you all those who came to the Unity Pavilion and those who joined us online. So we gathered today for a deep dialogue for harmony in Oroville. So this meeting will start with a short introduction from Devin, who represents Synthesis Oroville, non-official, let's say group of people. But Devin will provide more details about this group. And we here tonight to review the screening of the presentation by Ragu Anantanarayanan, Ragu, who had been interviewing the residents of Oroville, the representatives of the working groups and came up with the synthesis of those interviews. And the presentation will be actually projecting the situation in Oroville, taking or seeing through the lens of the Mahabharata. And I hope that most of you, you took time to read through this introduction to the material, the reference materials. If not, you can find some hangouts on the glass doors. And after the screening there will be a short break and then later on we will have a dialogue in a fishbowl format. So we are here with you together. There is an assembly service, Giovanni and Tatiana, Devin, Aravinda, and other people who had been interviewed by Ragu and also Oroville Radio and the UNDI Pavilion team who made this event happen. Thank you and I pass it on to Devin. Thank you, Tatiana. Thank you all again for joining. Thank you, Ragu. Just to give a brief background, for those who don't know me, I joined Oroville in 2016. It was on day one that I came here for the first time. I decided to join Oroville. It was a deep in a call. And since then it's been a feeling of constant gratitude to be able to part of this adventure, so much of gratitude for all the pioneers and everyone who has built Oroville. And of course as a newcomer you go through and you also see how there are challenges for new people to come in and there are some needs to change. So there is also gratitude for people who want to build the city faster and have more new people joining. But when this little over a year ago, when this crisis began and it was quite heartbreaking, I'm sure for all of us, but especially for people who had recently come in to see my mentors, whom I really deeply value, standing opposite each other and with different views, it was quite a heartbreaking situation. I was really yearning for spaces where there is deeper dialogue happening, not just the surface events that happen, of course, which did take a lot of attention. But what is the deeper thing happening? And in that quest I got involved part of various groups of residents. One was called Harmony, the other was called Confluence. And the most consistent amongst them was a group called Synthesis, Synthesis Oroville, we would meet every Thursday, four o'clock at Matrimandir in the Stone Circle Garden. And there was no specific agenda, just a space where we can come and share from a deeper space and how can we bring synthesis? That was the intention. And in that meeting I remember somewhere in the early August this conversation came that there has been a proposal of inviting Ragu to kind of hold a dialogue with residents of diverse perspectives so that as a third person he can come and he can understand and give a third person's view of what he thinks is the situation right now. More like what he calls a landscape study. And his invitation came from Deina Meriam, who's the ISE chairperson and governing board and the foundation team also kind of approved it. And it was in maybe end August, early September, I received a call from him saying that he has been invited to do this and he would like some resident of Oroville to give him some names. He says for obvious reason I don't want the foundation to give me a list of people whom I should speak to. He said I want some residents to give me names of few people who represent, you know, multiple views. And I thought if I'd been asked to do that I was really earning for this space for deeper dialogue. So I gave him, I think close to 50 names which I felt represented diversity. Again, I have a document uploaded today. Everything is transparent. All the emails I wrote, all the names, they're online for you to see. And in week one he was able to speak to 20 people. I was quite happy that he was able to speak to 20 people in the first week itself which represented diversity in gender, in nationalities, in perspectives. And his initial intention was to come in October in Oroville and then present what he has understood. But after that conversation he realized that there's a lot more that he still needs to understand before he can even share first-level landscape study. So I think in October 1st to 4th he came along with Dina. And I think they met some more residents one-on-one. And working committees from both the sides also met him and some more residents. So I think that has been the process. And it was somewhere, we're on Monday. So not last Tuesday but a Tuesday before is when he was invited to share what he has understood with the governing board and the ICT members. So this was an online presentation that he made of what he has understood. It's more of like a first-level what he calls a landscape study. It's a beginning of a dialogue. It's nothing conclusive. It's something to start the conversation as he will also explain. And so what we are doing now is we are kind of going to be playing the presentation, his presentation video, same what he has presented to GBIC. So there is no difference. We had already done it once with a small set of people who had already spoken to him. And this is the second time we are doing that, which is open now to anybody from the community. It's also online. People are there on Zoom. So what we will do, I'll invite Raghu to share a few words. And after that, we will play that video, which is the presentation that he made to GBIC. So word by word we see what was presented. And then we'll take a short break. And then we'll have a chance to have a dialogue with him, ask him questions. Again, since we have a large number, it will be in a fishbowl format where initially we will have people who has already spoken to him, has more context to begin the conversation. But when Naveen and Raji, when they actually hold the conversation, they will explain that if from the audience, if somebody also wants to ask a question, we'll have a way for you to step in, ask the question. But the people who will start the dialogue will be, again, amongst those who have already spoken to him. And then we can have dialogue and questions from all. And again, as Raghu will share that this is just a beginning. When I asked him about the next steps, he said that if the community finds value in this kind of a dialogue, he's happy to give more of his time. If we say, okay, thank you very much, then that's it. But his urge is that there should be a lot more dialoguing that needs to happen within the community in the spirit. And if he can be of value, he'd be happy to support. So the next step after this will all depend on what value we find as a community in this kind of a dialogue process. So with that background, I'll invite Raghu. Thank you very much, Raghu, for all the time and so much effort that you've given in speaking to so many diverse people and sharing your perspective. So before we play the video, we'd love to hear something from you. Thanks. Thanks a lot, Devan. And thanks to everybody who has spoken to me and who's willing to listen. I just thought I would highlight one or two things because from the first two showings and some of the responses I've got, I think I need to highlight this. The first is I'm responding to data that's been given to me. So none of the statements I'm making are based on anything that I am personally saying is X or Y or Z. And I've listened to many people, so I'm trying to put together the process that I'm experiencing and I'm not talking about any particular events. Now, this is very important to understand because one, I don't have any direct understanding of the events. And secondly, for in any community, events will come and go. But the way the events are given meaning will remain permanent. And that defines the culture of any group. And that's therefore important for you people to keep in mind. The second thing for you to keep in mind is I'm using some characters from the Mahabharata to illustrate certain archetypal energies at play. Now, I'm finding that there is some confusion between the word archetype and stereotype to explain the difference so that you keep it in mind when you're listening. And archetype is an essential quality. So some of you will probably know the Mahabharata. There is a very popular figure called Dheema who is something like a Rambo. So the archetype of Bhima, the archetype of Rambo are the same. And it's exactly like or if you take another figure like Duryodhana or somebody like that or some great guy who's fighting Rambo, they're actually the same archetype. One has chosen to deploy this energy inside in a way that is constructives. The other is employing it in a way that is not so constructive. But the archetype is the same. So in my presentation, you'll see me talking about the functional aspects of the archetype, the dysfunctional way the archetype is deployed and the shadow. Obviously, I'm not talking about any ideal. And these are not happening only individually. They seem to be happening collectively. So that's what I'm going to be talking about. So have a good time listening. And then I'll come back again and we'll engage in a dialogue. And I'm hoping that we can be as transparent as possible. So it becomes a beginning of something constructive. And I must let you know also that after I made the presentation to IAC and the GB, Dana has asked me to give her a note on what is possible. So I've sent her a note, let's see how that works out and what happens. Okay. So there are no other questions over to you, Devan. Sure. Thank you. Okay. So I'll be back in about an hour or so, Devan. Yes. It's I think almost 90 minutes, no? Your presentation. 90 minutes. Okay. I'll be back. So Rajeev, could you play the video? Or maybe even before we start that are there any questions before we begin this? Okay. Yeah. You can maybe really just a few quotes from the mother and shrub into just to kind of bring in their, their presence next. So yeah, I think when I think of deep dialogue, the learning is how can we have a dialogue with each other by seeing each other as as souls and go at a deeper space to have this dialogue next. Okay. Sure. So this is a part on the synthesis, thesis, antithesis and synthesis where the mother says one must try to understand the other person's point of view, put oneself in his place and instead of quarrelling or even fighting, find out a solution which can reasonably satisfy both parties. There is always one for men of goodwill. Raghu in his presentation refers to a couple of, you know, stories from the Indian itihasa and mythological system. So one is of the Samudra Mantan, which many of you will be familiar with, which is again gives us a perspective that all that's happening here is like a play of forces. So while at times we make it to attach to what I'm doing and what we are doing, but there's also a larger play of forces and Deva and Asura. Next. As he mentioned, he also refers to the different play of energies and the five archetypes of the five pandas that he speaks to that he will refer to next. And also why is it that it is only to Arjun that Krishna kind of gave the Gita. So what is the importance of the Arjun archetype in really going into the deeper space of dialogue where we are having a dialogue from a deeper space? Next. And in a way, it's about, yes, for each of us to find that unity within. This is again a quote from the muddler. Humanity is an underlying and existing fact. But the external union of mankind depends on man's goodwill and sincerity. If you want peace upon earth, first establish peace in your heart. If you want union in the world, first unify the different parts of your being. So at some level it is about the Mahabharata within us. So all these archetypal energy is also within us. There is an inner Duryodhan in me and there is also inner Bhima in me. So when we look at this, how do we look at also from the battle, the Mahabharata within? Next. But when I was going through Mother on Auroville, it was interesting to see that for us, there is another call that she's giving, which is not just about individual sadhana. In this Q&A when she was asked what is the difference between the ashram and Auroville, I think the ashram will retain its true role of pioneer, inspirer and guide. Auroville is the attempt towards collective realization, which means this building, this group soul, this collective yoga, and in that process to have a deep dialogue is, I feel, of an important role. Next. So how do I dialogue not only with the Krishna within me, but also with Krishna in each of us? And we all know about Sri Aurobindo's Alipur Jaya experiences where he was able to see Krishna in everyone, in the jailer, in the prisoners, in the bar. So how do we reach that stage when we want to have this dialogue? And another quote by the mother where she says, Sri Aurobindo considers the message of the Gita to be the basis of the great spiritual movement which has led and will lead humanity more and more to its liberation, that is to say, to its escape from falsehood and ignorance towards the truth. Next. And which truth is, again, a quote where she says, as long as you are for some and against others, you are necessary outside the truth. You should constantly keep goodwill and love in your heart and let them pour out on all with tranquility and equality. And last. And while Raghu is not referring to Savitri in his presentation, but to me, we often hear the current situation of war and perhaps it is at some level, but it is we are in the age where we are here to manifest something more and the core message of Savitri, as I see, is the victory of love, victory of love over death. So how do we go through this situation, not in the conventional war way, but we win with love? So with that intention, I kind of, my personal intention for many of us to hold this space of dialogue and with that we kind of start Raghu's video. Thank you. Can you see it? I can see it now. Thank you. But I can't move it, no? You tell us next, we move it. Is that okay, Raghu? Yeah, I'll keep saying next, next, next, because I have got it organized like that. Okay. Yeah, so namaste and thank you for this opportunity. It's been quite interesting to listen to a whole cross-section of people and I must say I was quite happy with the kind of honesty with which the sharing happened. So I hope I can do justice to whatever I've heard. Yeah, can we change the slide please? Yeah, I just wanted to make it clear that what I'm presenting is one view that I've been able to gather through a set of interviews. And I think I've covered a fair cross-section of people, both the residents, members of the governing body and the IAC. And an assessment is a broad overview statement. And it's a starting point of a dialogue. It is not to be seen as some kind of a final statement about anything. Next. Right. Yeah, the fundamental thing I've tried to do in this through the whole interview and whatever is not to focus on the content, because the content is something everybody knows. I've tried to look at what is the energy dynamics that underlies the way people are looking at the events, which is always something much more permanent because this is what defines culture. Events will come and go, but the way people respond to an event is what defines the place and that is what is long lasting. Right. So I tried to get an understanding of the underlying dynamics, which means some aspects of the culture of Auroville. Next. Right. Now, some of the questions I asked myself are basically to do with what is the capability of Auroville to respond to its current challenges and the way it is responding to these challenges or to enable it to move towards its own stated objectives and goals, which is a fairly high level of aspirational direction that it has given itself, which is actually to be an exemplar to the whole world and show the world how complex problems can be dealt with and solved. So that's the other frame that I've kept in the back of my mind. Yeah. There are some things that are very clear. One is that up till now there has been a fairly considerable and, you know, phrase worthy level of progress that individuals have made and some of it came through in the way people shared their own Savana. And in my understanding what has happened is a lot of small scale units which produce world-class products and all that have come in. And in some aspects of sustainability and so on, there's a fairly important contribution that Auroville has made. Next. Right. So what we are confronting today in my understanding is the next level of growth, which has got to do with a large organizational issue, issues of scaling up and so on. And so whatever I'm talking about is in that perspective. Next. Yeah. Now, one of the critical things that I thought was that, you know, the way things are going on right now in Auroville seems to be a whole antagonistic process where friendships are getting broken. So it is quite heart-rending to hear people talk about how the way the response is happening at present is actually bringing in tensions and sometimes even broken friendships. Yeah. And there is this whole pan se tantra that talks about how to win friends and how to break friends. And the process now seems to be more on breaking friendships than on making friendships. The other thing that I was asking myself was what is the importance of the city? And that seems to be one central issue that's going on. And the people like Michelle who might know more than me on this, but I'll ask as I had a guess when we look at civilizational collapses across the world. It's fundamentally got to do with central critical cities that collapse. And then the whole civilization collapses. So just wondering whether that's the reason why the mother and Sri Aurobindo have looked at creating a city which is spiritual. Because there are ashrams. There are small villages which have attempted this, but I don't think there has been any city level attempt to create something which is focused on a spiritual evolution. Yeah, so it becomes important for the whole world. It's not just something that's important for the Aurovillians to look at this whole process. Yeah. Now, one of the things that happens in these kinds of crisis situations when people are talking to each other, they end up talking at each other. And it becomes very difficult to listen to the message that is trying to be conveyed because there are all kinds of other filters that come in the picture. And very often what comes in has to do with emotional charge and the current situation definitely is very charged emotionally. Yeah, so one of the ways in which we can proceed forward is to really understand the meaning of dialogues so that there are no ruptures left behind as we move forward. Next. Yeah, I asked myself, you know, what is Auroville as people are talking about it now? There are so many definitions of Auroville, right? But what are they fundamentally talking about? Yeah, can you just click once please? So one critical statement is that it has to be a place where all my neighbors are focused on integral yoga and focused on and being inspired by the mother's dream. This is something that everybody talked about. The second is a place where infrastructures work efficiently and will support a city. Now these two are very important because one is talking about some commitment to an ideal of divinity and whatever the other has to do with whether while we're trying to be sacred, our sewage will be cleared properly or not. So this is a critical tension between something very mundane and something very lofty. Next. Right. The second or the third very critical thing everybody is talking about, which is also there in the charter and so on is is Auroville a place where the culture of the place continuously supports human evolution. Next. The other thing that seems to be something most people are talking about is this place aesthetic and is the place where we work conducive to working well. Is it inspiring and so on and these four seems to be the tension areas in the current discourse. Can you click? Yeah, so what happens is that whenever there are any issues like right now there's a whole something to do with people land issues and things like that. So immediately there's a huge try saying where is the estate officer where what is she doing and all kinds of maize fly all over the place. Right. So there's a definite need for securing land, which is articulated right now in very reactive ways. Right. The second can you click again. The other thing that seems to continuously get into a flash point is whenever this question about the city. So it appears that this is not the first time this whole issue is erupted this might be the second or even the third time this is erupted. It is obviously something to do with commitment to a large scale building of one part of the of the dream. And it is definitely evoking and provoking provoking people very sharply. Now the other thing that I'm finding which is what I can contribute to is I don't think the culture as it is evolving right now and as it being displayed right now will help human evolution. There's a lot of antagonism, there's a lot of anger and there also seems to be a degree of regression in the way people are responding to each other. Yeah. Now one of the other things that seems to be a bone of contention is this whole issue of aesthetics and you know how conducive it is in Indian thought you have this idea of Ramayam, which is very critical. So anything you build which has a sacred direction ought to have Bhogadhyam which is utility, Sukhadarshanam which is aesthetics and Ramayam. Now this is a very difficult thing to answer but there seems to be a constant pull or push about this. So if somebody wants to do something one of the issues that we brought up is the issue of is it capable of Ramayam. So these four seem to be critical pegs on which the current issue of what is horrible is being articulated. Yeah, and it's obvious that unless all four are coming together in a way that is convergent in a way that's coherent horrible is not going to go anywhere. It will stay in a similar kind of a process most of the time. Yeah. So the overall picture that I get of our will when I listen to a lot of people is that it's an Oasis within which there are lots of violence. Yeah. Can you just click. Right. So each of these is like one view of our will which is contained within a certain technology that that group has understood and worked on. There's a world view that's created around this so there are lots of or a wills there is no one or a bill, but they seem to be a grouping within different pockets of understanding of what is horrible. And this comes through, you know, when they're talking to many of the people who spoke to me was speaking about how within or a bill they find that their acceptance in some groups is high. There are other groups in which they're definitely not included. And also the world view that each of these groups present is not convergent. There are definite differences in these. And this I think is a critical issue because if you have to scale up and take order well to the next level. It obviously cannot be at this level because this I don't think is scalable this model. So really understand what might make the make horrible scalable for it to go to the next level because I think it is stagnating at this level of small pockets of excellence. And this has been the state for a long time. Yeah, a number of people use the word war. You know, I asked myself what is this war going on. Right. And there are very many ways in which people are framing this so they talk about, you know, people on one side and people on the other side. So there's one framing that says there are seekers that are pioneers and then there are people who come outside who don't understand. There's statements about spiritual explorers and structuralists. That's another versus. And there's a fundamental statement that says look, we are all individuals who are not answerable to anything other than ourselves. And then there are people who are playing roles where the system has to operate and the system has to operate for everybody. So there are all these versus kind of statements that are going around. Yeah. And many of the these pockets seems to be also having a certain conviction behind what they're saying. So each of them seem to be saying look, we have successfully incorporated our idea of horrible. This is the proof of concept. Yeah. And this is the way or will must be built. And therefore, a real bridging between these units and an overarching idea of what or will ought to be and what it could be, which includes but transcends the small pockets is not clear at all. And what is also happening is that there is a whole framing of us versus Dr. Jan Thiravi and depending on, you know, how they feel about it. She's either referred to respectfully or she's referred to as the estate officer or Orville Foundation, which itself I found very strange, because somewhere humanity and an exchange between human beings is lost in the way this whole exchange is happening. And I think there is an issue also of somebody like Dr. Jan Thiravi who's worked on huge problems, you know, which which is maybe 100 times the size of Orville, having to now look at something of this scale. Because here, each person seems to find a voice and the systemic, the respect required actually for systemic solutions is not coming through. So there's a systemic way of looking at solutioning. And then there is this individualistic small scale way of looking at solutioning and the two are not meeting. And the gap is being dealt with in ways that are not conducive to a very positive culture. Now what is important and from my point of view is each of these small scale units, Dr. Jan Thiravi and so on, each of them have something of their learning to contribute. And a dialogue then becomes very critical for us to take the next step. Yeah, the other thing that seems to underlie this whole warring effort in a sense is every now and again when people confront each other and there's a difference in point of view. What the other says or Sri Aurobindo says is used not as a starting point of inquiry and dialogue, but at the starting point of a debate. So like debate means to use a cudgel and break somebody's head. They're using these statements cherry picking and throwing it at each other like cudges. It doesn't help at all because I think it takes away from the sanctity of the central charter and the core of what could be the basis of dialogue. And I think the real statement that is being made behind it is I want to do this. I've taken a statement of the mother. This is the way I understand the statement and this is how I'm going to act on the statement. And not with this. One, there is a possibility of a dialogue. Otherwise, this whole thing of the mother says would make the other person, you know, not be able to challenge anything. And what is getting covered up behind mother said is really this is how I am using the statement to do what I think is right. So it's actually not a statement of respect, but it is a statement where you're using sacred words for personal agendas. Yeah. So the key question we need to answer today I think is can the tug of war become a Samudra Mantra. And a Samudra Mantra needs two sides. And there's a whole very interesting story about the Samudra Mantra and about how it happened. Maybe we'll come back to the story later. But in any of these situations, if any side wins, the whole of order will loses. Yeah, so whenever you go into any of these kind of difficult things now my teacher Krishnamacharya would say you have to check the Nadi and see ask the question Sadhyam or not Sadhyam. Yeah, can you help, can something be done or not. And his advice was if it is not Sadhyam, tell some nice words to these people and say it's all in the hands of God and quietly step out. Okay. Now I'm hopeful. I think something can be done. Okay. So what is just hold just hold the screen as it is. Now the structure that I'm using to look at this question of Sadhyam or not is drawn from the Yoga Sutra. It starts with by using the word Hayam. Hayam means this is a situation that needs to be avoided. Yeah, and everybody seems to be agreed that what we're doing now is not the way to be. This is a very important thing to start because if there's no agreement on a fundamental dissatisfaction, there's no, there's no energy to change. Right. So the question of what is happening now is a good or not good for horrible is being answered by everybody saying we need to get past it. They're also using the word inflection point, which I hope they've understood the inflection point means we're either going to go up you're going to call we're going to go down graph is not going to remain the same. And while agreeing with most of the stuff because the way they present the symptoms, the symptoms, right. Many of them are also saying that that these are not new. The underlying tensions and the underlying ways that by which we are trying to solve problems is not something new. So there's a great sense of urgency that we must solve this soon. Another thing that is a positive thing is everybody swears by the mother's vision of the city, but like I told you it's got its own little problems. But it's a very positive starting point and I don't think anybody I met is not sincere in saying this ought to be done, but each of them is clinging to their particular view. Yeah. Can you click. Right. Now, Hano opium means what's the way to bridge this gap. Right, so I'm suggesting that while they have to be a lot of operational things that are put in place. This is a time when deep healing is required. Because some of the reactions that I saw and I heard from people are reactions that come from her that come from feeling of being in trauma. There's a lot of mistrust. There's a lot of entrenched positions. And many of these entrenched positions have behind it a history that needs to be looked at and, you know, gone into carefully. I'll talk a lot more about that. And the gap between aspiration and the reality is seen as quite considerable but it's always the other person because of whom this gap is not being closed. And this is one of the critical issues and problems. The other thing that help us to work with this is the underlying assumption that most people share saying that they're engaging in an experiment. And that is the historical experiment. It's a very critical thing. So the idea of an experiment gives us the hope that everybody will say yes, my position is not final. There is doubt, openness to reexamine it. And that will allow for dialogue. So the moment somebody says this is my position and this is the only way it has to be, there is no dialogue possible. It's not an experiment anymore. It's a closed dogmatic space. Yeah, so I tried to model the whole thing. Yeah, and this is the model that came up for me. Yeah, there are two ends of the picture in any organization. One end is when there are lots of individuals who come into an organization and each of them comes in with a personal set of competencies and capabilities. And each person will have their own mind and heart set in a certain way. What any collective price to do is to go to the other end, which is all the collective competencies converge in a positive way. And the hearts and the minds become coherent and both are very, very critical. It's very easy often to just talk about tasks and say if you do ABC tasks together, everything will fall together. But the energy does not lie just in the task. The energy lies in coherence at a deep level and heart. Now, the endpoint, which is the aspirational endpoint is very clearly drawn from the charter. Yeah, but the issue is that each person is being drawn to this charter from specific individual locations. So the meaning that they give to it is different and very often dreams like this have an energy which is directly proportional to the nightmare from which I come. So people don't get drawn to Auroville just like that. There are two energies. Yeah. And this is very critical in the whole process as I'll show you a little bit in a minute. Yeah, so each has a personal aspiration. Next click. And every one of them is a stakeholder and or at least they see themselves as stakeholders in Auroville. Yeah, hold it here. So there is one movement where all these personal aspirations and capabilities have to move through what I'm calling an organizational process that other ways of looking at it. Fundamentally, this comprises of tasks to be done policies to be followed processes to be entered into and respected strategies which is long term. Goals, you know, stated and transactions clearly understood as how transactions are to happen. Right. Most organizations and I'm sad to say includes Auroville right now, which I didn't expect. Can you click? Yeah, there's an institutional portion which is continuously investing in how people come together, build trust, build shared values. He'll hurt because any process you take any task you set to do hurt and differences of opinion is inevitable. But you also need processes where you work with these and heal this energy. Right. In most organizations, people like me are called in when hurt has gone over a certain threshold and we need to work with them. Right. The only difference between Auroville and those organizations is the last two now the world view in most organizations get gets bounded by the fact that most people have agreed on a certain clear purpose, which is a very tangible purpose. And therefore, there is not too much of a difference in world view. If there is, it is kept outside the organization, but a place like Auroville. All world views have a place. And that seems to also be part of the mother's and Shri Aurobin description saying everything that isn't the world will come here. Right. So dialogue, which has to be very, which is very important institutional space has to be invested in. And I don't think Auroville has invested in this space enough, which is why there are pockets, which are very successful different points of view, which different people have, but you don't get a coherence when you listen to them at this level. There's only a constant repetition of the superficial aspects. This is what the mother says. This is what the charter says. And then what is happening and this is important. Yeah, can you click when dialogue starts? Right. Then differences surface. So the city business is one huge thing where differences surface. And when these differences surface, what seems to be happening is people get triggered dialogue completely breaks down. So what was apparently peaceful starts getting shaken up and the underlying differences and, you know, other emotional baggage seems to get kicked off. So what happens then is the whole process of building a collective gets lost. And this is like a huge wall and people get bounced back and fall back onto their personal ways of looking at things rather than be able to cross this. Yeah, we'll come back to this because what Auroville is trying to do is something unique and very difficult. And my suspicion is precisely because there is a spiritual direction given and spiritual aspiration given any failure in a sense to go to a collective is triggering shadow behavior and deep regression. Yeah, so this is to me the pattern that's getting repeated in Auroville and this is in my idea, the culture of Auroville. So at one's end, yeah, there are statements like saying this is what has to be done and it has to be done in my way. Right. And then when you find it difficult to actually deal with consensus building and coherence building, you find the problem to solve that seems to be a very important problem to solve, but the underlying differences are not solved. Right. And in place of dialogue, we're ending up with sadly the oldest way of people engaging with each other. I'm a victim so and so the oppressor will be my savior. And we'll look at this a little more carefully as we go on. Yeah. And this way of dealing with things and getting into a courtroom kind of a discussion between people is only going to make things worse. And I'm not talking about going to the actual court. Many of the dialogues I had with people, while there was a sincerity that was clear about the way they were coming from. There's a clear listing of blames saying this is not being done. This is not being done. Whatever. And it's like I'm the judge. This person is the accused. And in my view, if that person has to be condemned. Right. Now this is, and I found it sad listening to this kind of a very violent condemnation of others. One of the things that a lot of people are feeling positive about is the way the dream being process happened in their mind. This was a good first step. So what I've been tossing around and I've talked about it for dinner is how do we then help a dream being process with healing dialogues, which might be critical to go forward. Otherwise, we might solve problems, but the culture is not going to change. Yeah. Can we just stay in the previous picture for a minute? Yeah, is this picture clear? Because my rest of my presentation is going to elaborate on this picture. I think it is for me. Please continue. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So I'm going to look at the dynamics, you know, in a little bit more of detail. And I'm going to use my favorite framework, which is the framework of the Mahabharata, because the fundamental idea that I'm bringing up from the Mahabharata is that there are five kinds of power that people have. And it is a wise use of these five that creates a dharmic collective. So I'm starting with Nakula because you'll see in the end why I'm doing this. Nakula is that part of the mind of that energy that allows us to put service before self. It values harmony, it values inclusivity, and it's a power that is very critical for institutional building. Now, I'm putting it here first because this is one of the things that is drawing people, the promise of this kind of harmony is drawing people to Auroville. So what are the functional aspects of this energy? Can you click? Yeah. One is it's an energy that helps building consensus because we want to be inclusive and helps to create a participatory process. This is an energy that helps you to nurture people, wants you to volunteer and care for people who work for you and so on. Much of the environmental ethic that in Auroville also is quite strong is based on this energy of Nakula. But this energy also has a dysfunctional aspect. The dysfunctional aspect is when the Nakula is very strong, you avoid conflict. So why differ from you? I'd rather keep quiet, maintain harmony on the surface rather than really talk about where I differ and enter into deep meaningful dialogue just in case it causes hurt. So as a consequence, people end up adjusting and accommodating even at the cost to themselves. Yeah. And what I find happening in Auroville is this is valorized. So I've heard a number of people say, look, the most difficult thing to do in Auroville is to come up with an idea which is meaningful and find it accepted. And they talk about how often their ideas get rejected, what they have to do. And it's then taken back into themselves and say, okay, this is great for my sadhana. Sure, it might be great for your personal sadhana. It is not great for building an organization. The other dysfunctional aspect of the Nakula energy is it creates most kinship groups. And there are lots of these in Auroville. There's a shadow aspect to the Nakula energy. And that is, if it gets too held in this, there tends to be very tight knit groups where there's in-group solidarity and out-group antagonism. And there's another side to it where you draw back in the name of harmony, you celebrate plurality. But this plurality is a superficial plurality. It does not go deep and create coherence. So I'm calling this kind of a culture plan at one end. It's also an ability to create an ecosystem where here ecosystem does not mean ecology. Ecosystem means different forms of thinking, different heart, mind, collective that can actually work together, respect differences, exactly like an ecosystem has birds, it has animals, it has plants, it has all kinds of things. This is a critical energy for that. So when you have a system which is either clannish or has not actually progressed to an ecosystem level, but wishes to, there's a whole lot of avoiding of confrontation, even if the other people are violating norms and values. And I know that they are violating norms and values. I'd rather withdraw into my sadhana rather than stand up and say, this is not on for a collective. Now the next critical energy is the energy of Lima, which creates arenas. Okay, now this is a very critical energy for any building of any organization, because there's a huge level of commitment, excitement, love for adventure, willingness to explore. And definitely much of the early work done in Auroville has been founded on number of people willing to come in and do something in what they call a brown field. So what is the functional aspect of it? One is an ability to commit to an aspiration the moment my emotion is triggered. I don't care about the way. So the charter is my dream. I'm going to come here and I'm going to put everything I have into this. Let me figure it out. Right. So this is where the pioneering energy comes in. And this is what really opens up new avenues and new ways of doing things. Yeah. Now I think this is also the energy that has allowed people to incubate small experiments. And allow them to reach world class. Right. Sustain investment and commitment to it. We'll come to the downsides of it also. Yeah. The other thing that it does is it inspires a lot of heroism and romanticism. Right. What draws people to Auroville as volunteers and so on is also the romance of this idea of creating something different and creating something new. Right. What are the dysfunctionalities of this energy? One is this is an energy which actually holds planning and forethought in this day. If you plan too much, people with a lot of Bima energy become very restless and say, come on, man, let's just go and do it. What's all this nonsense? It's like the Nike ad. No, just do it types. Right. Then the other also critical part is that people become very focused on being self-reliant and not be able to take hardships and so on. So asking for help becomes very difficult and really understanding another person who is in pain or suffering becomes very difficult and everybody is just supposed to be able to get up and walk and handle things by themselves. It does not enable collective dialogue. Right. The other thing that it does is this energy creates loyal tribal bands. Right. And that is an underlying need for power in this energy. And if it is not expressed clearly in legitimate ways, it gets expressed in all kinds of subterranean ways. Right. And I suspect this is happening in Oregon. So what's the shadow side of it? The shadow side is a statement that I've heard people make. Obviously they make it of others. One of the statements I heard repeated in different ways is people here said, I dare you to box me. So being a rebel is the mark is a badge. Right. And there is an underlying rage against anything that tries to limit people's autonomy and freedom. Now, this is dysfunctional and even a shadow because if you have to create large collectives, it is critical that you accept discipline and rules and law. Yeah. The other thing that it does is there is a certain underlying hate and negative attitude towards anything that is seen as neutral or saying step back and look at things. So this energy will push and push for escalation. Right. So you end up by saying I dare you to stop me and dam the collateral damage. And I think you're seeing evidence of this getting played out. Yeah. Now the critical way to shift now the first two energies create very good small units. Yeah, it's very essential for startups. Now the next is the Yudhishthira energy, which is order, structure, predictability, certainty and so on, which is a very critical building block for organization building. Yeah. Now the functional aspect of this is that most people I spoke to speak about a recognition that there is a plan that is necessary. There's an administration that is necessary and so on. Right. You click. Right. There is also some kind of an acceptance that yes, we need to scale up and build something called a city. Yeah. But unfortunately I saw much more of the dysfunctional of the Yudhishthira play out rather than the functional in order. One of the ways in which it's getting dysfunctional is I heard this a number of different ways that we say yes to plans, but we don't think any plan is going to be taken too seriously. So there's no respect for this. Right. And then if you lack this collective discipline, you get into functional subunits that end up being like silos that actually don't push each other. So the, the systemic infrastructure never gets created. Right. The other thing is to use rules. Right. Either stated or built up by themselves to block action. Right. So a number of people are talking about how their entry into Auroville was very tedious and very difficult because some rule of the other would be pulled out. Right. People have had difficulties in getting homes and so on and so forth. Right. There is another aspect to this which is dysfunctional, which is you end up then becoming rigid with rules that you need to apply. Yeah. So whenever, like for example, what they call the foundation bringing things in is seen immediately as rigid, which may or may not be. So there's no space for a necessary dialogue and negotiation. So intrinsic real rules are seen as negative. So that's the shadow. Right. There is a disdain for any attempt to systematize. Yeah. And if you use the book, it is seen as power and enforcement. It's not seen as discipline. It's immediately interpreted as oppression. Right. Now, a lot of people talk to me about issues of lack of integrity. But it was all seen in terms of personal pioneering efforts, this, that right. And many of them also said that these may not be, you know, a negative kind of thing. This is simply a lack of respect for rules and regulations that makes them mismanaged in several ways that are absolutely simple, important ways of staying within the rules. Yeah. And a lot of people talked about how many of the rules that have been framed by the residence assembly is complied with in very superficial ways. Right. And one of the things that seems to be a common practice is you engage with oral will in the minimal ways it is supposed to, and then you create your own ways of having private income because not many people are happy with the amount you're earning here and so on. And then there are fudging. There's fudging going on in this. Right. And that seems to be sort of taken for granted. Right. And all of this finally ends up in a hate for rules and tradition. There are a number of examples where anything that is seen as tradition is opposed. Yeah. And this is to me a little sad because you are starting with a spiritual discipline is starting with Sri Aurobindo and the mother who have obviously invested a hell of a lot in understanding tradition. And they are taking it forward. You can't take something forward by not respecting it first. Next. Right. And then you go to Sahadeva Sahadeva is very important to create networks of purpose, bring together knowledge and expertise, go into rigorous analysis and study before you come to conclusions. Right. And this is also in short supply at an organizational level. So what are the functional aspects of this? I think each small unit that's got created in Auroville has quite a bit of a willingness to experiment and create value of knowledge. Yeah. Right. And a lot of people who come into Auroville get attracted because of an opportunity they see of building things. But many of them said that my fundamental expertise is not being used. Right. I'm qualified in ABC. Now I'm going and teaching a set of villagers. I'm quite happy teaching a set of these villagers and so on. But am I really bringing my best into the place? Right. And sadly, there are lots of dysfunctionalities that you see out here. There seems to be a satisfaction with limited knowledge and craft level expertise. Which is how Auroville started. Right. And a number of people talked about how they have tried to bring in expertise. Right. Like for example, time management in some small units or looking at some other competencies which are essential for building a large collective. And they have experienced disinterest and sometimes disdain for this. Yeah. And quite often this lacuna in knowledge is not accepted. So what is happening is some of the people who do have the knowledge are actually not able to contribute from the knowledge they have. Right. And many people who are looking at a larger planning kind of process are very clear. We don't have this kind of knowledge. We need to get somebody else to bring in this knowledge. But for that, we first have to accept that we don't have this knowledge. Yeah. So I think the upshot of all this is there's a glorifying of this back to basics way of life in Auroville. Yeah. So some of the successful projects are all of this type. Yeah. And I don't think there's any collective idea of what it means to build a city. Yeah. And today you have to embrace technology. You have to make technology work your spiritual aspiration. And if enough study is not certain to this, how is this going to happen? Right. So while Auroville is the place where this experimentation can be done and knowledge can be created, which brings together the sacred aspiration and how to build a city which is sustainable and so on. This meeting is not happening. And this is why, you know, my own feeling is that, you know, the dream weaving kind of projects have to be brought in to expand into many of these with an understanding of humility for where is knowledge required and how can we internalize this knowledge? And that requires ability to dialogue. That requires ability to say, I don't know. Right. Now, I put Arjuna at the end because he does something special. He's the one who speaks to Krishna, which means divinity. This chapter starts with saying, I want to be the servitor of the divine and so on. So having a dialogue with the divine is not a casual trip. Just hold that in mind. Yeah. So what this energy calls for is deep introspection and valuing a Dharma sankhata. Now, when you value a Dharma sankhata, you cannot get into war. You will understand that there are many ways of viewing the truth and you get into dialogue. Right. I think this is an aspirational state in almost everybody I spoke to. But there is a huge gap between the aspirational willingness and the actual. And I think when people view this gap, they're finding it very difficult to own it up. And that's where much of the pushing back, blaming other people and so on is starting. Okay. Now, one of the critical things that this energy enables you to do is to ask questions of oneself starting from the statement. I don't know. I don't think enough of this is happening at the organizational level, probably happening at a personal level. Yeah. Right. Now, one of the other things that happens when you really get on to this level inside you and in an organization is the ability to see oneself in others and others in oneself. Right. To really understand deeply and to go beyond just empathy into actually being the other person and dialoguing. Yeah. And unless I can do this, there is no possibility of the kind of dialogue that Auroville is wanting to have. You can have organization dialogue that are about issues and problems, but not about life transformations. Right. The other critical thing that is capable of being achieved through this energy is a real balance between the masculine and the feminine. Right. I think people are trying to do it in their own slide, but I don't think it's happening at a larger level. Right. The other is building perspective. Another possibility. Again, I see it only in individuals discussing an individual sharing. I've not sensed a large scale perspective which is shared and an ability to stay there and dialogue to create perspective, which is very essential before you even create a strategy. Yeah. And again, all of this is, you know, small pockets of examples. So I'm hoping that this can then be built upon. Right. The other critical question that I think we have to answer the Auroville has to answer now is how do we stay with despair and breakdown of mutuality without immediately making it a trigger to blame other people or without it becoming a trigger to get into your own shadows, your own rage, your own sense of betrayal and so on. Yeah. Now again, you know, this is all available in pockets in individuals. Can you trust the teaching? Or are you interpreting the teachings in ways that are convenient to you? That was very touching. Some of the, you know, shareings of individuals was very touching. Yeah. Individuals are also willing to talk about shadows, the fact that, you know, that's a very, very important energy because if you don't deal with the shadow energy and convert it into a positive, you cannot transform a place. And there are enough people who spoke about the shadows, which to me is not at all common. You know, most people I go to most places I go to very little is understood. And even if it is talked about, very glibly. Yeah. Yeah. Now one of the dysfunctional aspects which is part of the Arjuna energy is you listen to so many things. You look at so many points of view that you don't develop any conviction within you just feel overwhelmed. I think there's a huge population in Auroville that is here and then getting pushed and pulled and so on. But there's a fundamental feeling of being overwhelmed with the current situation. Yeah. One of the things that I've heard on and off, on and off is, you know, this whole thing of, you know, are you on the Dharamik side or not on the Dharamik side and so on. And people using mothers or Auroville those statements to talk about the fact that they are on the Dharamik side. Now this I find extremely problematic because I think we ought to agree that when I read something, you know, I'm giving meaning to what I read. Mother is not here. Sri Aurobindo is not here for me to dialogue with them. So any meaning that I derive is a personal subjective meaning. So claiming therefore that I am Dharamik and the other person who's quoting ABC from the mother is Adharamik is a problematic thing. And I've heard it too many times for me to just say, you know, that it's an aberration. So what does this lead to? This actually leads to dogma. So you sit there and you think you've got the truth and the certitude, but you don't own up to it. You act in ways that are actually rigid. Your own rage is submerged in this and comes through as rigidity. It comes through as opposition. None of which is conducive to dialogue or a healing of the whole situation. The other thing that a few people stated which I think is important for us to look at is many of them said, hey, I actually have a sense of what this whole thing of working through all the problems of the world might be. But it is awesome. The task we have taken up is really, really huge. I don't think we're up to it. I personally think that many people owning up to this will be a great beginning. Instead of saying and covering up this fundamental, you know, awesomeness of, you know, how am I going to climb Mount Everest? Instead of saying, no, no, I know how to climb Everest. It's an important energy. And not to be overwhelmed by this, but to start giving it some shape and saying, you know, this is what I see. Let's look at it. Let's slowly shape this. Yeah, but if you just get overwhelmed and saying, oh my God, there's so many shadows, etc., you're never going to get started. And I think this has been happening for a long time. Yeah. So I'm just going to put it together because this, you know, what comes through to me is the Bhima type of archetypal energy is invested and celebrated. And it could be the core of the Aurovillean identity. And if it is, we are in a difficult situation because you can't herd cats so easily. The Nakula energy, which is important for cohesion is available in small groups, but it is not available as a whole. So it ends up becoming creating nice interfaces. And in times when so-called peace, everybody's in their own little pockets, but a cohesion and a coherence is not happening. Yeah. There is not enough respect for the Yudhishthira identity. It's plain and simple. And unfortunately, Dr. Jayanthiravi's core identity is the ability to act and work with large systems. Which means a good, very well-worked out Yudhishthira identity. Yeah. I think the knowledge thing is sporadic, it's held in pockets. Right. And Arjuna, when you click, Arjuna is only as an individual Sadhana. Right. I don't understand where it comes through as a collective Sadhana. Yeah. So what does this mean? What are the collective core competencies of Auroville? Right. One core competency is a commitment to individual Sadhana. But even here, there are some question marks, but yeah. There's a great deal of commitment to freedom and autonomy. Yeah. There's a willingness to trust one's own guts, which I think is a very good thing. Right. There's a lot of willingness to fail, to experiment and to grow there and to fail. But this is held individually and small pockets. Right. And there are lots of people who feel inspired by each other. And so there is an inspirational quality that is there in Auroville. Right. But there are also core inadequacies. Right. One core inadequacy is the ability to negotiate and dialogues with people who have different mindsets and different ways of looking at reality. Right. There's an inability or an inadequacy in committing to long-term plans. So that requires a huge amount of Yudhisthira energy. Right. Setting down policies, which are acceptable. You can't have a large city without policies. And if they are fundamentally seen and held in suspicion, how do you build shared policy? Right. Dear accountability is a huge question mark. And if you have to build the kind of place Auroville is talking about, dear accountability is very critical My own opinion is that some of the current processes that are happening is because pure accountability has been missing for a long time. So this accountability has now come through from the governing body through Dr. Jainthi. And if it had been worked on we would probably be in a different place. Right. So there is a collective and core incompetence also because of this of this pioneering thing and this strong whatever is how do you heal collectively? Because, you know, there's a very interesting statement from the Native American tradition. It says that all cure happens individually but all healing happens in a community. Right. So one of the critical things that has to happen is to surface collective shadows and resolve them. And this is not so easy but it's necessary precisely because Auroville has stated for itself the spiritual soul. Right. So I'm going to put this together into another frame, which I think is critical because that's the core issue in the dialoguing process that we need to look at. Right. Like I said in the beginning there's a lot of clan energy that I see in Auroville. Yeah. So what does the clan energy do? Clan energy has high in-group position like I said but the other is demonized. Yeah. And there are shamanic and superstitious ways of looking at your own truth. Right. And this doesn't help in real enquiry. Okay. So when people regress to this level they symbolize other people. Okay. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Yeah. And the dialog simply then descends into victim or oppressor. And fear is what is left behind in this kind of discourse. I heard quite a bit of this in my discussion. Yeah. Right. Then, you know there's the next level which we talked about which is the arena which is fundamentally tribal which has heroes and followers. Yeah. In this discourse the other becomes a villain and there are tricks and whatever that help you to transform. This is not a real spiritual practice. It's a medicine man kind of a practice. Right. And then what happens while experimentation is valid the whole dialog the discourse becomes the discourse of heroes and villains and colluders which is quite clearly evident right now. The underlying thing in this discourse is a discourse of power which is not stated clearly. Right. And then an organization has to move into a clockwork that is very critical to move out of the arena plan into a clockwork if large sustainable systems have to be created. This requires strong structure, uniformity and so on. But when this discourse starts if it's not understood well the other is treated as a criminal. Right. And your own understanding of the way out becomes prophets rituals and so on and if it's not understood any same practice can quickly be called religious it can be condemned which also one is hearing about. So the discourse then becomes judge accused and defendant and the underlying feeling that gets generated in this is contempt. So with fear, wisdom stated issues of power and with contempt you cannot build a community. Yeah. The next level which an organization has to move to is the network. Right. Where you're bonded by a shared purpose and everybody is a potential resource. Right. There might be some competition but there is a a nice way of a rational way of dealing with differences and individuals Right. And the whole group comes together through purpose through seeking and skepticism which is an important thing. Right. It generates a sense of curiosity. Yeah. I don't see this as a collective in order right. Then there is a level which we call ecology which is highly inclusive, pluralistic relativistic also here mostly what happens is people end up with what is now called eco-spiritualism and if it's not understood properly it also generates narcissism where you pull back it's a complicated kind of thing. We look at this but I think this is happening here Yeah. So this is the space where you find friends and you are able to deal with differences in a friendly way and there is a context of compassion that develops I have not heard collective compassion in order of it. Right. And this is the aspirational level where you really understand microcosm, the macrocosm non-duality and so on and yeah your dreams are awakened everybody is a co-creator and so on and deep collective contemplation takes place. I have not heard enough to tell me that this is happening in Auroville. So what Auroville is standing for is to be a hold on where it got stuck in the current issue the way dealing with the current issues has been planned and arena with huge struggle happening to accept the clockwork therefore the rest of this of the levels of organizational evolution are maybe understood I don't know but definitely not acted upon collectively. Yeah so wait a minute wait a minute can you go back yeah stay with this is this picture clear because this is critical to understand if we have to all work with creating an Auroville. Yes it is clear okay right so I'm going here I'm going out on a limb okay so I'm doing some speculation on the shadowy energies I think a lot of people have felt a great deal of hope okay especially with JNTG and saying you know what has been stagnation and now we're going to do something fantastic etc etc but there is also been a feeling of let down feeling of let down I don't think ought to be attributed to JNTG or the whatever it is also heavily influenced by the individual inability like we saw in the culture of Auroville a disdain for certain organizational level actions right but unless this is understood it will keep on getting focused on an individual it will not go into an examination of the process and how each person is creating this context yeah right there seems to be a repetition of this process that many people talked about a number of times when they've been attempts to organize and every time there is this there's been a huge eruption of resistance, anger outrage hostilities and things like that yeah in fact many of the people I spoke to started by saying look while this is an event that's happening this is a repetition of what we have seen before and then they went back years yeah this is the thing I already talked about in symbolizing somebody saying you're the person who is bringing in rules we hate rules so we don't like you we hate you kind of things yeah now my suspicion is also that some of the accountability that's being brought in today is mirroring back to many people in Auroville yep you know areas of Lakina and this is being presented so unless you know there's some resolution here it will be difficult to have a dialogue because this is being pushed under the table okay now I also heard sometimes clearly articulated sometimes not so clearly articulated a great deal of despair around where Auroville is today it has nothing to do with what is happening right now this is a despair that's been building up for a long time but this despair can easily be thrown at somebody who's called an outsider who seems to be calling for accountability yeah the other underlying energy that has become a shadow is to say nobody can demand accountability of me and because of that the residents themselves cannot build some centers because unless there is mutual accountability to things that have been agreed upon and so on you'll continuously be talking about a utopia and then my utopia is being opposed by your idea of utopia maybe there is some exchange you go back to your sadhana whatever you come back is unresolved and this just keeps saying so even let's deeper into my speculations yeah going even further out of the limb there are unresolved feelings of betrayal and this betrayal is now being put at the door of the foundation and so on but I think these are mutual betrayals that have been felt by people and it is not new right so people have come in with a huge respect and love and hope for the dream they have not experienced this being accessed upon by other people right or wrong one doesn't know but this has never been resolved so this sense of betrayal continues in some way and then events come and trigger this sense of betrayal and then this goes and lodges in the external trigger this lodges in the external trigger yeah and then it can't be dealt with yeah the other thing is that after the passing away of the mother and Auroville and or Sri Aurobindo there's another sense of betrayal which is the messiah who threw me into the space is not here anymore and then it's a very difficult thing because anybody who interprets or says that look I've discovered something and this is the way I'm looking at the spiritual path will be seen as a usurper will be seen as a proxy because he's not the messiah or he'll be expected to be the messiah which is again impossible so what is collective spiritual sadhana yeah if this is crack Auroville will do phenomenal things yeah and there seems to be an evidence of individuals who have attempted to take leadership but there have been opposing camps and they're static and so on and they're pulled down right so the upshot of all this is a deep double bind that I found many people articulating right many people have come to that middle space that I showed you in that picture and then there's an enormous task in front of them they actually don't know how to go forward and create the collective magnificent city but after having put in 15 years 10 years 20 years 40 years I can very very easily understand and empathize with the sense of despair what do I do where do I go if this doesn't work and if this is not going to unfold in the form that I hoped for when I came in here what do I do now right and when these feelings are not there's nowhere to take this there's nowhere to dialogue it and so on they turn into rage very very understandable and I also think in this context of all this unfortunately Jenti has become the symbol of the bad mother yeah okay so I'm just speculating on what are the next steps that could be taken right I think the first simple thing that ought to be done at the policy level is what is an accepted idea of the success of all of this each one has their own little picture there is no shared idea that these are the measurable these are the measurable things so if we can move from point A to point B that's a great step this is the next step and so on without which if you keep on talking about this magnificent city it's a vague idea which is not converted into any shared success criteria this is critical so every time somebody says you're successful somebody else can say you're not successful when you say you're not successful somebody else can say successful but you have set the goalpost so far you've set the goalpost in a place where success in the world has reached so far so there is no comparison there is no way in which you can concretize this what is this magnificent spiritual city right so unless there is some way of saying okay if we achieve this in the next few years you've taken a progressive step let's try and achieve this in the next few years and you break it down and it's a movement towards this grand objective you're gonna continue to have this problem right I think dream weaving is a good first step yeah but like I said without the healing energy just the dream weaving is not going to go anywhere because I've also heard people saying yeah yeah yeah dream weaving fine but you know what maybe these architects came and agreed just now but we've seen these architects never being able to agree so the underlying suspicion about a very nice step that's been taken is there right you can't afford that yeah the other thing is also that each of the three bodies here another GB the IAC and the residence assembly have to really understand what are the non-negotiables between each other what are the boundaries and what are the responsibilities of each I think there is a lack of understanding here which is also causing the clockwork space not to emerge and if these are stated you might be able to start rebuilding trust and say okay let's collectively do this you play this you play this role kind of a thing and slowly step by step start because I don't think Auroville can be built without all these three groups coming together yeah it might be a good thing to start investing in non-controversial areas and build forward right this I already shared with you saying can you extend the dream weaving to other areas because I think a lot of people have been positive about this right and add the healing process like I said before because dealt with unowned up shadows is a huge problem right I also think like I said before there isn't enough knowledge and isn't enough execution capability in the resident assembly in of itself so even if they take decisions and say they will do ABC I don't think they'll be able to do it so critical to understand how this capability is built and if it's not internally available how can it be brought in and negotiated for right so this is just like a summary of what I've been saying so far can be own up both the success and the failures that happened so far and learn from both the other is clearly to agree on how to deal with the teachings of the mother and Sri Aurovindo and honestly talk about what one understands and how one is internalized and how one is interpreting the teachings this is very critical for a dialogue to go forward yeah the difficulty is that a lot of the work that has to happen in the dream that has been put forward and really people have committed to it most of it has to happen internally right it's an inner sadhana and there is very little understanding across the world of what is the collective spiritual sadhana that can take you there but one thing is very clearly understood that unless the clockwork level is deeply internalized and structure that is usually represents becomes an infrastructure transcending that level is very difficult so right now clockwork is looked at only as a structural imposition process a lot of people have to understand how it becomes an extremely important essential infrastructure which has roles responsibilities and rules to be respected and it's an issue of discipline it's not an issue of oppression right and there is no way the world can go forward unless all the stakeholders are part of the experiment it can't be you experiment and I'll watch now this is something that I think has to happen through a healing process where there has to be a grieving a lot of people have talked about how we have they have not moved in 40 years 30 years right instead of holding it as a rage or holding it as a betrayal one has to have a collective grieving and say look it didn't happen let's own up the pathos that we feel about it and if you do that like all grieving processes you get away from anger you get away from feelings of loss and betrayal and you can evolve into another level of pain you can actually go and move in a different way rather than be caught with the anger of the let down like in individual grieving this has been worked out quite a bit but I don't think collective grieving is understood yeah and like I said all of this has to do with understanding the clockwork as an infrastructure and then building on top of that if it is treated as an enemy our will cannot evolve from here yeah so I guess we are good to go right I just had one question Naveen yeah please go ahead there are some people I am seeing on the video who had also had a chat with me you will have to see how they can be part of the initial discussion yeah yeah I haven't set up the fishbowl yet so what we will maybe I will just explain how we are going to go about it to start off with there are a bunch of you who have already spoken to Raghur when he I think about 30 odd people if I remember right so we will give them the first the first preference to start off this conversation so if I may request only those of you who have already spoken to him to be in this first little semi-circle yeah so let them get the opportunity to ask the first questions because a lot of what Raghur presented is in a sense built on what he has listened to from these people so let that conversation go on for a while and my request is each of you if you can keep your questions to about two minutes or two and a half minutes that will be ideal and at some point I am hoping people are sitting in the fishbowl initially might want to step out of it because they have asked their question that dialogue has happened so as seeds get awakened here others can step in and occupy those seeds is that clear? what okay so okay so as I understand the fishbowl it is basically a dialogue in a smaller circle where and there is a larger circle that also lizens in to what is happening this dialogue in a smaller circle so this is not asking questions this is a dialogue process so there is a smaller circle right now that consists those who have had this chat with Raghur already and Raghur but it is not only a dialogue between them at some point and I am hoping soon once you feel complete with your sharing and your conversation that they will be able to step out and create space for other people in the outer circle to step in yeah so what is your discomfort with this and sit in one of the chairs either of the opposite perception of reality and reach the dialogue between different perception of reality so where are our different perceptions of reality here this is my first question how do we sit there and get there as the conversation begins so I will hold you to I will request some patience let's see how the conversation unfolds maybe we will get there yes Jasmin it is a conversation so you place your whatever you feel like placing here and I request to please keep it about 2-1.5 minutes to start with and then let's see where it goes yeah last question to okay let's get going just a couple of quick reminders before we start one is more than nitpicking on specific incidents and events my invitation and request will be to try and can we look at the larger picture in terms of the culture in terms of the dynamics that Raghu's underlined and of course you're welcome to place whatever but if we start nitpicking on issues of this person that that person that this happened that happened I don't know where that conversation will go but so my request is can we keep questions to the big picture in terms of the larger statements that is made about energy dynamics and the culture and stuff of the place secondly yeah we will try and let's build on what each let's build on each other in terms of let's not repeat the same questions the person has already asked it and that question is over let's not ask the same question or at least build from what the earlier people have already said otherwise we go back and forth on the same thing others don't get a chance so let's start and we'll take it from there I'm not expecting this to be easy but let's see how it unfolds maybe I'll be very happy if it's easy yes but have you already spoken to him before then please come and sit in the front Jasmine you have also spoken to him before okay great so Soro you're saying you'd like to start is that what you're saying okay well I've already made some questions to comment to Rago on the online section two weeks ago so I don't repeat them but I have two comments on the presentation today one is that when a dialogue on it happened like it has been taking place now only focusing on the conflict of situation where there is a deadlock it's quite easy to have a reductive perception of Auroville what is appear in the presentation is that Auroville is stuck somehow into a kind of level of arena but my experience say that Auroville is something more much more and then of course for an external person doesn't know Auroville and get the focus on dialogue it has to be this impression came natural but unless we elaborate and we take advantage on what Auroville has been done in this field it's very important and for example in my experience until recently Auroville has been very able to make a lot of progress in conflict resolution unfortunately it started with Covid when our community life was disrupted we have lost this know-how and when intervention of external authority we have not been able to recover this know-how that we had, I mean I've been in Auroville 40 years ago when there was a big conflict and I was amazed until two years ago at the capacity that we are having to manage our own conflict so that is one element to take it at the judicial level even in this case it has been downplaying maybe because of what has been reporting about the meeting but Auroville in the past especially when we relate to the local context the local region has been a great capacity to think about the large system and so that is has to be recovered and somehow with the change of administration with the relation with the external body the agency has been centralized that has been marginalized this capacity of Auroville to have that type of energy to think in the large system that's a comment I heard sorry, you make sorrow cool, anybody else would like to also share I don't have my eyes on you so in case you want to say anything just feel free to comment I'm quite happy I'm presenting a point to view but of course there will be different points of view and the way to come to any consensus is to listen to many points of view right, so I that's sorrow we have lost him okay, B, did you want to say something Raju, can you hear me Rago can't hear me good he's offline I see well, Navin said this won't be easy but I think why not, I mean here we are we've faced many things over the years and this is a great opportunity to bring the community together and I think the culture that he talks about he has given some insights but most of us I think are aware of a lot of what he said already these various issues we've had because it's let's say common knowledge in Auroville after you've been here for a while you realize what's going on here and because it's a spiritual community, of course the inner work that he also emphasized is crucial otherwise we're not going anywhere so what I'm just a little concerned about is this notion of dialogue see we have to understand I would understand dialogue is not a couple of people talking about these things it's a round table so in Auroville where we have a round table where all, as he said all the stakeholders can come to the table or at least enough of the stakeholders that represent or are somehow connected to the various elements that are already in the community can talk together in a very understanding and civil way and talk about the way forward now an interesting thing that just when Devin started out he said, you know I had a little problem or I was hurt because my mentors when I came into Auroville are now on opposite sides or they disagree well I'm one of his mentors and also his other mentor I don't know if he's really on the other side but he's done some things that have alienated other people so I said to Devin he and I can talk anytime and we already talked a few times so the people have been in Auroville for a while I think they can still talk to each other and this question he talks about the bad mother you see those things are things that we have to let go of we can't we can't characterize the battle or the so called battle this has to be on another basis and we don't use those words we don't say the other side we don't say the fake working committee it's a working committee that was set up under certain conditions that I don't agree with and other people don't agree with but we can talk about that but we don't use the language we have to get to the right language and so I would say the right language for is not dialogue the right language is round table everybody at the thing everybody on an equal playing field including Jayanti Jayanti is very easy to talk to and she's very open and I don't see why anybody can't talk to her I don't know can you hear me I just got him I heard the last few things you said I'm hoping you can hear me I can hear you perfectly and also I want to thank you for all this incredible work you've done I mean it's amazing but as I said while you were not listening many people know already what many of the things you have said and we're ready to take that into consideration and the way you analyze the culture of Oroville there are a few things left out that we could talk about but that culture is very strong and that culture is going to bring us through so I wouldn't there's a little bit of a pessimistic ring in what you've been presenting but that may have come to you from the people you talked to so I'm not putting it on you but I'm really I'm really grateful that we have this opportunity and I hope we can meet again but other people want to talk here there's a lot of people here who want to dialogue and be in a round table or whatever you want to call it very briefly to just build on that I think the infinite richness and variety that is there in Oroville doesn't get easily summarized in any presentation it is so rich it is so varied and that's why it is so potent for future manifestation and as we said you have met only 30-40 people but we keep meeting even now after so many years new people, new stories new perspectives and it gives new hope there is something that is building up on a different level than what we see outside and maybe even the outside shocks have in some ways helped us to go deeper and faster on that plane what is happening is really really tangible for many of us on that other level and I am full of hope and full of certitude in that we will be overcoming this stage and living our true unity together one thing that I I mean many things I have seen during the thing that I would like to reflect on there is not time for that one thing that I do want to say is that when you said that there has been always an opposition to an authority maybe it is a time frame when the real authority of the mother had receded in the background and came this human authority after that human authority and I think Aurovillians are very very not only open to but they are hungering for the divine authority so we are not against authority we are against sort of limited lower authority that is the thing in my understanding the higher is not an authority it is an inspiration so yeah I wouldn't use the word authority for something like that I am using the word authority very clearly in the terms that you were saying is a human authority or whatever in a fish bowl one would probably have a conversation can I can I say one word? yeah of course yeah of course it is nice that you make a distinguish between authority and inspiration the way Auroville started she was the authority she was the human authority here and that is not a time that is easy for anybody to grasp but fortunately many people even now do feel her close we are in contact with the mother and it is not an occult thing with an occult group it is a deep living experience of many Aurovillians and I think that is what keeps us together and looking for that authority that real authority so I will come back to the word authority but I am not sticking on that word I was just saying how hard you are using it not quibbling but the way you are using it yeah thanks for that there is a lot to take in it was the first time I heard this recording so a lot to take in but the questions that are they two of them I saw there one was about reconciliation dialogue and the other one was around what are the responsibilities of the three bodies so my question really is what I see here is to use the war analogy we need to ceasefire because the way I see it there is quite a lot of power being exercised arbitrarily and I don't see how you can have dialogue in that context maybe you could comment on that I don't have any difference with what you are saying so long as there are these differences and the tonality of us versus them and all that you can't have dialogue I agree 100% I am saying so in this context what has happened is a fall back into a certain kind of discourse which is not going to be helpful I am not asking X or Y to be responsible for it specifically but this is the context in which you see yourselves today you have something to respond to yeah I am not sure what I really specifically wanted to ask you is around the exercise of power in this moment issue where a lot of people are feeling that power has been exercised arbitrarily and sure so how can one have a dialogue in that context see my understanding is this that whoever is exercising authority or whatever the moment I start describing that person as a demon the moment I start describing that person as an oppressor and so on there is a dynamic that is getting set up right so when words like demonizing happen then something is pulling the persons inside back to a very clanish fear based level dialogue cannot happen from there right or when you get into who is going to be accused of what then you set up an adversarial context there cannot be a dialogue there is no starting point so there has to be work at several levels now each of us has to look at it and say where am I getting my perceptions from right and then there is a possibility of a dialogue so what I am stating here very clearly is there is somebody the secretary here who is playing a role right and a person who plays a role is playing a role on behalf of a systemic reality now how do I start a dialogue with somebody who is playing a role if I start with the idea that so and so is demonic or so and so is an accused and so on it is not possible right so I am not saying X or Y or this side or that side has to do something about it only but this is a reality that I am hearing when I am listening to people okay let me just also there are couple of chairs here empty so those who are outside want to step in and be a part of this conversation feel free and if there are people here who have already spoken I would like to step out that is also great so Jasmine would like to go and then I will bring it to you yeah thank you well first of all I wanted to thank you for this immense work that you have done and it is a presentation for me up to a certain point of watching it was very very rich and I felt wow if maybe two years ago this presentation we had collectively seen this presentation it would have been a great starting point for introspection for changing many things and I hope this can still happen because for me it is the first time I have seen it and it has been a lot to take in I would love to see it again at the same time I have got more and more the feeling that with all the beautiful insights and precious insights there are gaps that are very significant and serious I am not going to I am trying to stay away from mentioning any names or people in particular something I have learned quite deeply in the South African process is that it is really important to play the ball and not the person I think that helps a lot in depersonalizing at the same time like others here I have stumbled and tripped over the concept of Yudhisthira the way it was interpreted Yudhisthira being the authority and the human authority we know well in Auroville has been pointed out that like mother said Auroville has one single authority and that is the divine consciousness and whoever is closest to that divine consciousness will automatically of course we have struggled with it but ideally automatically will be in a position of human authority as well now when we get an external authority which is never easy because somebody comes from outside and does not know Auroville the first thing I would expect is for this person to have the humility to get to know Auroville it's certainly a very difficult position to be in it takes a huge lot of integrity and wisdom and listening you have pointed out some of the dysfunctional aspects of Yudhisthira and some and I think we have witnessed some of those also some of the shadows one shadow that I have not seen in the presentation and I don't know if it fits into the scheme is if we remember Yudhisthira what happened he is the one who is actually at the origin of the war because through some I don't know personal attachment addiction, whatever it was he gambled away the kingdom and that is an aspect that many of us have been and are deeply worried about that Auroville is in that danger right now and Yudhisthira has a pivotal role to play in that so I would like to I would like to suggest the more tight you are the more you think you know and all that the more the shadows play up sure and dialogue so we need to understand how to confront this dialogue round table is certainly the way we have all been wishing for and working towards as much as we can but as you said dialogue is only possible if one person does not feel accused in the first place we have people in our in very positions of responsibility who have been accused they have been slapped with FIRs I know that I have heard that many times over and over again so if I may make a suggestion that would be a condition to have those threats removed to even start talking about dialogue so it becomes possible I would also like to say that in confronting and healing collective shadows I do not believe that it can be done with the force of JCBs I think I'm done thank you I'm done thank you maybe I sit here so I can see hi again this is the second time I see the presentation and every time I have new insights so thank you for your work I find it very balanced with maybe a few exceptions you sound to me a little bit more on one side than the other and I think I asked you last time we had this video call if after your presentation to the governing board and the international advisory council what was their reactions if they were open to your suggestions because I personally am very open to a dialogue but someone just pointed out you have to have all sides willing to sit on a table and if I looked around today I don't see many of let's say one particular side I see many of the other particular side maybe most if not all and also in the past no when there was a conflict between in the working committee there was an attempt by the council to to find a solution among the components of the members of the working committee and it was a refusal many different options were proposed but some people those who then created what we can call the governing board I call them the unreal working committee but I've heard that better not to use fake or whatever but let's say the governing board working committee and they simply refused to sit around the table so I wonder how we can start a dialogue around table if people don't come when they are invited because I understand sometimes I'm a member of RAS we are seen by both sides are taking sides which is honestly not the case we try our best to be at the service of the whole community really I feel myself all of them as brothers and sisters I have close friends in both sides and you made a point about neutrals which is very interesting because I have also many friends who are neutrals who take sides and they are demonized so not only one side demonize the other side both sides demonize these poor neutrals which are simply they want peace because these extremes are into a war and there are civilians who are suffering and I sympathize with them because I feel one of them so my question is what was the reaction of the governing board I heard that you wrote to them so maybe if you what you foreseen from the side because you said that three bodies have to agree on responsibilities how? because I see now a governing board which says basically we can do whatever we want and work out on accepting the criteria for assessing progress who has to do it because for me is the resident assembly I mean Oroville has to be built by Orovillians so dream weaving can be a good way to move forward but is this accepted so I think I stop here because I might have many more questions I share many of your questions Giovanni I don't think I have answers now but what I am hoping for is this that you know this group neutral group or whatever you group you call it who are interested in dialogue that's what I have told not the governing body actually Dana because my interface is with Dana saying can we start with 25-30 people who are interested in understanding dialogue first of all because I don't think we are ready to have what you are calling the boring people come and sit and have a dialogue we are far away from that there has to be some understanding of many things like what's the framework in which we understand like I said organization development what stage of development are you at in Oroville I am not saying that my presentation is accurate let's be clear about that because my understanding is there is an outside in view of a reality there is an inside out view of a reality and when both of them come together more or less you get somewhere close to a reality you are never going to understand exactly what it is so you want to work with that I don't know let's find out that's one second is I have no doubt in my mind I think it was very clear in my presentation if it's not I am going to try and make it clear the governing body has to be part of the experiment right in my understanding a lot of the issues have happened because the governing body has not known its role it's either been too far away or now it's too close there is a distance right now each of these three bodies have to really understand how they are part of an experiment because that's the starting point of Auroville right so if I am requesting people for example from the resident body to say can some of you start with I don't know I know something I don't know I am going to request the governing body also or whoever is representing that to say can you come to the table with I don't know but some context has to be created before that happens to you when you can't just jump from where you are today into a so-called dialogue it will only deteriorate into exactly what is happening now that's what I am saying there is so much of the clan and arena discourse that I am hearing so little there is a wish there is a very high wish for what I am calling the ecosystem dialogue colonic I think is very very far away so let's be honest about that right so what is it that will make it possible for us to be plural to accept differences and not fall back on narcissistic I am right that's a huge step it's not an easy step there are very few people who have gone there and attempting to go there is a phenomenal adventure I really wish you could show me the way and I am very serious about that that's why I am putting in this time that's why we are here too with our time so let's see what can be done thank you Joanie just one thing it's like one of the first things that was requested from us for joining it was goodwill and the goodwill for everybody I think that's my motto still and also the deep wish to be able to rejoin and reconnect it and make a synthesis in the next step forward that's just what I wanted to tell and a lot of my questions were answered still not like how would we get everybody on the table how would we be in the right attitude to listen and to step forward and because I can't even and I don't want to think about sites anymore I've never been able to do that and I really don't want to do that but I care deeply about the disconnection thank you thank you so much I am Bindu haven't had a chance to meet you before very briefly actually I've been here all my adult life and a few comments from what you presented one is conflating the Yudhishthira archetype with Jayanti Ravi to me is actually quite problematic because one of the thing about Yudhishthira archetype is that it's somebody who's very very just and you know when you use visa as a threat of your power that's not just and it's just a very quick thing of it actually really breaks, strikes us at our human unity because you make a division between foreigners and Indians like me that is one can we just look at this carefully let me explain an archetype Yudhishthira archetype is somebody who knows how to use the book you're confusing with the stereotype I said this before we started now I can use the book in ways that are constructive I can use the book in ways that are destructive but it's a really simple reality here is a person who's a bureaucrat who really understands how to use the book that's the Yudhishthira archetype go back to my presentation right and if you want to really look at the Mahabharata we'll have a long discussion about it yeah Bhishma also is a Yudhishthira archetype okay there are times when Duryodhana is also a Yudhishthira archetype Vidura is a same archetype look at how differently they use their ability to state what is just so can you people understand that you're dealing with somebody who is excellent at using the book which book are we talking about not the charter she goes by she's a government official she's given a book she has to play by that book and she will play by that book now demonizing just a minute demonizing the person who's using the book doesn't help I don't think any of us are actually doing that that is also a fun okay maybe you have talked to other people in the heaven sorry I take that back yeah I've heard terrible words being used but there is no starting point if I don't understand how a person is playing a role you're dealing with a person playing a role in which case can we go back to the fact that none of us in terms of a process have actually then asked what is the role of Orville foundation and the three bodies that's exactly what I'm saying that the three bodies have to come to her and understanding what's your role what are your negotiables what are your boundaries okay so accepting that she's and then something can yeah I very clearly put it up there unless unless that is clearly stated how do you start right and look at another point of your distra if you and I don't agree on what is the measure what's the scale right one of the most critical things for this archetype which is the book which is rules is a scale is there a shared scale that isn't so one person is using one scale to say we are doing this we are doing that somebody is using another scale how can you move past this when you have three clear stakeholders and actually many many you know that I know that each of whom has a different scale right now many of the critical words that are being used mean completely different things to people right you just saw what happened the way I am using the word authority and the way you are using the word authority to me the moment you get into a deep spiritual understanding there is no authority because there is no person there so that's my understanding right so unless there are some things like this which are shared and clear starting point which does bring to another thing which is being very expressed with a lot of pain here dialogues are healthy they are needed for that community to heal itself but a dialogue happens only if there is deep listening where it changes the two people in a dialogue and so we are actually in a stalemate here where people are not and we don't know how to get out of this see if you go back to my presentation please look at it again that's my fundamental thing that you start a process of dialogue for real dialogue to happen especially in such a critical thing like you people are talking about you put your lives into something right so when there is a difference of opinion shadows are bound to play up fears are bound to play up I am seeing you people getting bounced back into personal sadhana at that point of time and what I think you are doing we can dialogue this this is very important to dialogue is collective shadow is being taken as personal shadow and treated as my sadhana over and over again I hear people saying the difficult thing to do is to collectively do something and what they quote to me is a lack of ability to go further beyond the point so what do they do they go back and say this is my sadhana that's great for my sadhana personally but to get to a collective sadhana we have to cross that barrier and the kind of listening you are talking about is not easy yeah sure all okay it's not easy at all no we know that just a couple of observations actually do you want to go Hans first yeah sure hello hi I think that's very important the healing and the dialogue and the wonderful decisions you do for us to go through that I wanted to speak about another aspect I question whether inclusivity is actually the thing I believe that if we have a representative group I don't know 5 to 15 people maybe mother mentioned this also on our governance they need to go through that process if you have too many people it's not gonna happen and we have enough wise people in this community maybe we cannot be so arrogant to say they are the authority of the mother's truth but many people are close enough especially the elder ones no they are somehow been here longer they're wiser and they can take it up I feel because the governance is not about including everybody and democratic processes I feel and our collective sadhana is really a mystery and we are far away from it and it's not gonna be with meetings and processes and a collective sadhana is for the future and meanwhile we can navigate but this is a great mystery and I think already if we have a small group of people maybe that's what the RA is or maybe the working committee should be I don't know you have a group of people who are willing to go through the experience of intuitive intelligence and make make decisions and have the authority because right now the authority went to something else but we need that authority otherwise we are not gonna get anywhere there's not gonna be one step towards this beautiful city dream and the plan and that thank you so I agree with you 100% actually I'm also just gonna sit here as a resident and share something I just wanna briefly disagree that we do not demonize the other one reason why I think I'm a neutral is because I see enough enough labels, judgements and worse thrown at each other on both sides there are whatsapp groups, there are telegram groups there are all kinds of groups where there are the choices to labels are used and I have I'm not agree with everything the secretary does but the last thing I've heard it's been a while since I've heard anybody refer to the secretary as a secretary there's always an adjective along with that so let's leave it at that so it's I think I think it's important to self-reflect and look at how have I contributed to the conflict and it's not just always the other there's a lot of personal responsibility here as well we need to take I'll be very brief because I've spoken already but I can't help making a little counter point to what we've just heard about demonizing about the lack of readiness like that right now the fractions the two sides are so entrenched that they cannot dialogue personally so I'm part of several online groups and there have been meetings happening every single week and all are welcome these meetings have reached a depth and a maturity where I think we all have been very deeply touched by what has been said and it is completely different from the reality that has been described here there is a sense of spiritual depth, wideness and acceptance and certainly not the demonizing that is being claimed here so as usual Auroville is very diverse and you can find anything you want but I just needed to bring this in and I wish that more people could actually come and witness and be part of that thank you I get it again, shall I? there's a lot to say I have an observation and a question if to nourish a culture of dialogue is one of the main point why this presentation was not shared with the residence assembly at the same time as it was shared with the Auroville foundation and I don't know that was my recommendation that was your recommendations that was my recommendation and my request and that was my understanding initially and in the last minute it changed so don't ask me, I don't know well this comes as a surprise also to us because I don't know why it's a surprise because Devin was part of this whole thing of trying to organize it and see how it can be done so it was the whole process was, you know, going back and forth back and forth and I'm not the deciding person there so who decided because if the three bodies have to start a dialogue make a healing process and start to feel in a level of mutuality it would have been greatly appreciated the residents to have this opportunity not just from the residents from me too that if you really want to make a start with this you need to have all the three together listening to what is being said and then have a discussion because many of the questions you people are asking it's not for me to answer yes and we don't know also how was it received by the governing board and the foundation and the IAC we don't know what was the exchange so we have no feel there was very little exchange you can ask me that and I'll tell you whatever I know there was very little exchange we don't have to make a mystery between you and me you ask me a question and I'll tell you whatever I know okay so I made the presentation and Gaby said lovely I understand then somebody else HP said yeah I've been in organizations and I understand what you're saying and Gaby came up and said I really understand how difficult it is to deal with shadows right and Michelle said you don't have evidence for this or that and I don't have evidence because that was not my charge somebody told me something and I put it together in a framework it's not for me to say you know so and so right or so and so wrong those were the only responses right you mentioned the dream weaving in the presentation also many time and I don't know if it could be a next step to meet the dream weaving team and bring the dialogue also as a next step in the future that we are trying to plan because but I'm seeing something else I'm seeing a need for what I've suggested to Dana as heart weaving that grows with that goes with the dream weaving it's very easy to go in the mind and say we want harmony and have those wishes but to actually touch heart to heart without the shadows that align in your heart getting triggered it's not that easy okay that's the reality so let's not run away from that reality yeah so I'm with you I think we need to add something more to it I think it would be greatly appreciated if the dream weaving could be given a practical chance because I think the community also feels the need to have some grounding as well at the same time that's what I've suggested if you listen to my presentation that's exactly what I'm suggesting I'm suggesting that it ought to be extended to many other issues but just the dream weaving will not work in my understanding unless there is a work at a deeper level thank you I'm just responding to the question on the joint meeting I think till the last minute we were wanting to do it together but what we heard is that there is 19 minutes and we don't want at this point to have a discussion with the community so we did Tuesday we did with the GB and Wednesday we did with the residence so I think it was a decision then taken by either the foundation or GB chairman we heard from the foundation office so that was the response with that and I feel this aspect of sadhana especially the collective sadhana and even in chairman's speech he spoke of yes Aurovilleans has a freedom but freedom of a sadhak and so how do you suggest the collective we come together and have a common understanding of because it's so subtle and yet it's a centerpiece of why we are here it's very difficult to say who is where in the sadhana but when so you have any suggestions on how can we go about or is that even is that even needed to have a shared understanding of what is needed I share what Hans was saying so I am suggesting that we need to start with a small group of people who will work together work with me if you want me and we work together to see what can be the contours for it I am not going to come in and say I know I don't know I have some ways of approaching it I am sure there are other people in Auroville who have an idea of how this could be approached right so I think it's important to start from here and form a small group that will start looking at what are the possibilities with the full awareness that we won't come up with anything meaningful then so be it these are an experiment right so we really step into that experimental space you can only step into that experimental space if you start with I don't know you can't get into an experimental space with I know who is the screwball it's not possible right you can't start an experiment saying all of you must be there on the table what kind of the kind we are talking about saying who wants to join let's look at it volunteering is a huge part of your own ways of working I think it's a phenomenally important part organizations get screwed up because there is no volunteerism it's all carrot and stick so you've got huge things going for you you couldn't take the next step how is it possible okay thank you you probably should let me let us know about 5 minutes before your tank is I've given an open time to Devan I'll stick to my commitments so you are saying how long this takes will keep going how ever long it takes and it's not going to be over this evening unless you think some magic is going to happen it's not going to get over anytime soon thanks Raghav yeah thank you for this wonderful analysis and I'm you know like Veda when it was not accessible to the public it remain in the cell now fortunately it is out for everybody and all the deep knowledge that you have come up with in your presentation if it is accessible for future reflection review study that will be good that is one aspect and I when Giovanni said about the neutrals I actually resonated with that you see if you take a side and somebody is not in your side that means you are on the other side and that means the neutrals are considered either and then somebody says that if you are not our side then you are the other side you are not neutrals so it is the suffering is there but it is part of the Giovanni because in Auroville we are in a big confusion now and it is part of our Giovanni I accept it like that and the main thing that I wanted to say is that during mother's time when she spoke about Auroville and everything that is an agenda and question and answer there was no government aspect there and she had not talked about the role of government in the manifestation of Auroville that means I will in image I would like to give but which is not the best one nothing other comes but you can translate in a different way that we wanted to have romance with the divine and we came and we decided to become Aurovillian and but there was no third point but unfortunately or fortunately a child took birth and what the child that took birth which was younger than us and what is its nature what is responsibility what is the identity that we didn't know and mother didn't talk about that we couldn't I don't want to blame anybody all part of us no old timers should be blamed for that but the situation is that then we managed in a way that government had to come and that we invited new entity and the roles were not identified in a spiritual way that mother would say and now because it is part of Auroville entity somehow we have to deal with it and accommodate it and we need to maybe reach in a state of psychology or spiritual state where we don't need the government role at all but for that to achieve we have to have such a deep sadhana or endeavor or whatever psychology but I don't know I'm contemplating on that but at this moment unless we realize that there is an entity who is empowered or entitled to play a role and we would never achieve any harmony and that is my personal view and how to have all together because we say that the government is outside and it cannot shouldn't do anything how can they do they have been given the power and we have called them I don't know you could correct me just my perspective understanding I see it in this way sir I agree with you and I'm talking about the current reality you have these three entities and you also have the overall thing of an experiment or a dream you have to learn how to work with this and my understanding is that some of the hurts that led to the government coming in have still not healed because when I spoke to a lot of people they went right back in history and talked about what they felt so some healing has not happened for a long time that's my understanding I'm not quoting it from my head that's what I heard a lot of people say the second thing is I'm not here saying I know anything about the divine I'm saying I have some understanding of what it means to be human that's the first step once a collective understands how to be human which means no division and so on and so forth then maybe the next step is to really understand your ultimate aspiration the next step is how to become a human collective the next step is not how do we become a spiritual collective that's far away because in a human collective lots of things that are happening now won't happen so you know the kind of stories I've heard the kind of ways in which I've heard these stories don't happen in a human collective they happen in places of war how many times I heard people who speak to me use the word war that's not my word that's the word I heard most of the people use so it pains me to hear something like that from an oral will yeah because imagine I mean this is something very serious you guys are sitting there to give me hope that's your promise okay and I'm not joking many of you have gone in there and said all you guys right many of you have said this in writing and sent me those papers the world outside is so lousy I'm part of that lousy world that we in oral will are such great people we're trying to do this great experiment sure please show me the way right and what I'm hearing now is not the way and you're doing things I'm doing I have to deal with my villagers around me I have to deal with x y and z I think I'm dealing with it pretty nicely you understand how important it is that oral will shows the way yeah I don't know I have something to say yeah you see I didn't introduce myself my name is Ram Narayan I'm here in oral will for the last 21 years I was born and brought up in Odisha I was deeply involved in the integral education movement in Odisha and I was also one of the executives of the highest body over there in integral education and in Odisha they also sought help of government in form of grant and when the grant came from the government they laid certain conditions oh you have to have this kind of teachers it's kind of scalculum this kind of this and some people those who are deeply into the philosophy of mother and showbindo they said that yeah this is really not okay that doesn't help us to become what we want to become then while many others you see we have about right now around more than 600 euro in the schools 30 years back one of the schools said okay we have made this we have made this we have made this to make ourselves self sustainable we don't want your grant through the paper in front of the executive body of the meeting and that is if we can that gives me the strength because it is a practical experience to say what I said before that once we make ourselves the government not needed for us then we can surely be free what we had come here and working for our term with divine will continue as we wanted to become what mother said I just want to go back to the personal different personal sadhana and collective sadhana what I feel is my perception my feeling that when one does an effort personal effort and work on the proper sadhana is not that one goes out of the collectivity because whatever we realize even can be shared in the collectivity because we are connected what I can can happen can realize can be part comparted also with others people and yeah I don't see all this difference if so many people does the proper work interior work can be shared can be the community can have good result also and even doing a an effort on the sadhana because in this moment is really more strong they need one feels one can even feel sometimes I love for what we say the other people this side and the other side but one goes over this doesn't mean that one can accept all the masculinity I don't know if it's the correct English word but yeah one meaningness of the some person especially on the I must say a the secretary or other because we are suffering a lot for some things but I have this hope that concentrating on even the personal sadhana will bring something more high just a sharing thank you what I am suggesting ma'am is that you need collective sadhana which is different from personal sadhana it's a very different level of activity and it requires you know it requires us to say we don't know what it is I think that's really why the mother I mean that's my personal opinion mother in north window have said start the city there are so many ashrams there are so many other little places that are doing this which is personal sadhana why did they say city right so I've been really asking this question why city yeah I I read Aurobindo I got started in my journey because I read Sri Aurobindo so my sadhana yeah my sadhana can happen without the city my sadhana cannot happen without a collective my sadhana cannot happen without friends and a sangha but I'm not if I ask myself how am I to be part of a city I don't know it's a huge phenomenal effort great effort I heard so much speaking of yantra and all this what is my perception is that we interior in inner we everybody of us has a place in this community collective life and we must incarnate the yantra it's not the cement or the my feeling it's not the cement or the house here the road like that and so but it's a realization of an inner a inner realization that everybody of us is a place in this general design so just thank you yes thank you for your very precise and analysis of the dynamics that play in Auroville thank you for this work I meet you very much when you state that the starting point of finding solution might be a shared I don't know I share that with you a lot and I've always tried to speak to even people that we now label the other side I'm telling that I can disagree with ideas and eventually fight against ideas but not against people right so for me it's not complicated to see the brotherhood even on people on the so called other side so now my question remains I came this evening because the evening was announced as an opening up to dialogue and sincerely I'm there it's open heart to listen to share and not to express only my understanding of what should be a reality be really open but where are the people here from the so called other side who came with the same quality of not knowing an open heart where are they this evening and no I know no no and it's not your work because very very sensitively you said this is not my work I'm just saying that this is what is required to heal and to start eventually a dialogue I agree with this but you know we've had a very smart lecture about someone who came here on stage recently who said they know we know what you need and we are going to give you the kick to wake you up so they seem to really know what we need and there is no openness to not know and share the question of what can we do best so the question remains how is it on our side if you are in this let's say open stage of not knowing openness wanting to share as you started to speak with the heart I've seen you speaking with the heart 10 minutes how is it if only we are open to that and something is imposed on us which is related to concepts and politics there is no I don't know in this sure I agree with you after Sudha maybe or is it connected see Natasha sorry I didn't see you sorry Natasha Natasha has been waiting for a long time I really want to thank you for this framework it's really insightful and wonderfully arranged and I could really identify all those archetypes within myself and that was an exciting little journey to go on while I was listening to you and I think that that in itself is an amazing tool I think the analysis part blocks suddenly when the analysis came suddenly I could watch my own walls come up and that didn't help me and yeah maybe it helps other people but I think as a community anything that can come to us that broadens and widens and expands our awareness is really helpful and very welcome and I think that is what is the power of the RA is to be able to just sit together that's why when we listen to Kirit Bhai's talk on what is the RA actually meant to be it's really not about the decision making about who thinks of what and how we should come to anything it's just about being able to sit together in a space and increase this sense of expansive awareness and then as you said and as he said this thing of the unknown will happen and none of us know how and it's just to give that a chance and so that I think this whole all these events of this last year are really preparing us for that so the main thing that put my walls up in your analysis was that basically we were being told that we were these little children who have done so badly I'm so disappointed in Auroville came across quite often in your talk from me that's how I heard it so maybe that's the way I received it but for me this year is preparing us for what the RA is meant to be hearing from each other okay what you heard I'm reflecting what I heard from the group but in one way or the other I have a very clear stance and yet I feel like I'm neutral because I do not demonize but I have a stance and in the same way I think that you also are neutral I have a stance which is very clear so you know in one way or the other you come across I'd love to have a chat with you and discover what is my stance that's the way a dialogue will start that's where we kind of put people into boxes I know I've been put into a box I'm a box that stands on one side when I don't actually feel like that inside and the similar with you because the way in which the presentation is like there isn't there isn't a feeling of feeling safe with you there's a feeling that you know so that for me puts up a wall and that's not helpful so that's why I think that these kind of tools can be really helpful if we can just share the tool and not the analysis and each one of us can do for ourselves and that is the power of the RA if all of us are doing it simultaneously and from that emerges some collective something that's our answer but not Raghu's analysis of it and yet I'm grateful Hey Raghu Hi so as I was sitting and listening for qualifications I am a volunteer here in just six months but when I came here yes it was the call of the vision that brought me here and as I'm sitting I'm listening what comes to my mind is the image of the bridge and you brought this word about creative tension and I'm just trying to articulate this that there seems to be an intent but there is also a hurt and there is the personal and there is the collective and this bridging is the meaning making process or the collective listening or the sadhana but I also heard you say about our competencies and our capabilities and what's our capacity how do I generate the self generative capacity and a resilience to be able to hold both and bring that healing space that's what I'm like listening and at the space that I am in right now where you brought the archetypes and you talked about where the first two is there and we are at the transition where we need to bring the infrastructure for the next level of growth you talked about the clan and the network so there also we're talking about how do we grow to realize the vision and as Orvilleans I also know they all want to realize and manifest the vision we're working towards it yes and sometimes we lose our path and that is I think life journey but I'm kind of said in an experiment over here which is very clearly the city and the spirituality that we're bringing in how on this bridge can we I heard you say I don't know as a space but how can we when very clearly we don't have somebody out there telling us what to do and I'm not bringing the angle of the government out over here at all and yet there are the teachings to fall back and each one can have a different interpretation and experience of that depending on the level of our own experience and maturity that we are how do we still harness this collective to bridge this where we are talking about to bring that cohesiveness or coherence so I don't know whether making sense on my question but that's where I'm left at now we'll have to if there are 25-30 people with a strong question we start from there yeah hi again I feel that the last ages no decision making process was really clearly developed and I think meeting together with coaching processes is great it's really very you learn a lot but this is about decision making process progress in that because I feel again it has been it's never coming up enough and that is the urgency of the city and the building of the city and that was my main thing here that's why I'm a neutral not believing the narrative of the save our people by the way I don't believe the democratic process is really it's good for us to go through democratic process because I learn from everybody and we have great coaching materials and it's great but it's all about that urgency and nobody speaks about that that urgency of building that city at least starting to have a skeleton a major step in that and because we never had any major decision making process because it's always been hijacked by the forces you talk about not by individuals these are just things that happen it's a sociological phenomena and nobody is to blame but I think it's time we start setting that up and not as a democracy but as a small group that represents and is willing to do that time and that effort to go into intuitive intelligence decisions that will be the authority because you cannot have everybody questioning everything all the time and I'm going crazy with it and the city I feel is my intuition there is a strong urgency to build that city that's my deep feeling and it's always being rubbed away community process and this and that but I feel that building the city itself is a community process many things will come out of that because if people bother to look at that plan why she made it like that why she gave so many years of the end of her life to that material building of the city it has many aspects that will help us to solve many of these problems we talk about that's what I wanted to just I can't help it saying it that's really my deepest feeling here thank you if I can just add something to what you're saying Hans the the dialogue between decision making organizing which is the head and the heart is the most difficult dialogue in the world all organizations break down out here right so that is a very critical thing for all of it learning the dialogue between these two and my sense I mean that's what I'm saying here that when you come to that edge right you're all falling back there's something that has to be done to go forward right and that's not an easy place it's a very difficult place any more questions every time I'm called into organization it is after they have screwed up on the decision making and the hearts are all screwed up and then they come and say fix it right and then you when you start really fixing it invariably the other processes take over the big difference like I mentioned I think in the talk in an organization in an organization there are clear boundaries right of why you're there there are lots of boundaries you're a very open system so in an open system the center has to be powerful and real or a centrifugal force otherwise it will all be centripetal yeah I couldn't draw a 3D diagram like your galaxy otherwise I would have tried to do that with different people coming in and there's a barrier somewhere and then they get thrown back into the thing and that's you know at one conceptual level that's what I think is happening yeah and yet the center is so you know attractive that you keep coming back to it okay any more questions do you want to yeah thanks again Ragu just that last point that you made where is that central core the mother articulated that so well because that's the Matrimandir and from the day one that Auroville started that was the focus and now we're doing the gardens we're doing other things but the understanding of that soul because she said it's the force that will hold it all together so we connect to the soul it's a symbol but it's connecting to our own soul so I think we have what we need it's just a matter of doing it okay are we done any more questions anything else to be shared feelings, sharings can we wrap it up then is there anything you want to bring in from the chat David nothing from the chat okay wrap it up okay David do you want to then come in no I think it's important that you come and wrap it up okay there are a few thanks Ragu I don't know if you heard that the mic is in my hand so okay I was wondering what was happening on this side yeah okay thank you thank you Ragu so much for all your time and work and thank you all for this dialogue I think it's hopefully it's just a beginning of many more such dialogues before we close do you want to suggest any specific next steps that we hold from here you know I've already put out this thing which is very similar to what Hans is saying to get a group of people to see where we can start right let's see what the response is and I've offered my time so let's see what happens