 It's not just set here in St. Paul, Minnesota. Hope you're doing well. Welcome to Think Tech Hawaii. Really happy today to have our guests with us. We've got a really accomplished panel. I think we have a good topic for discussion. We're joined today by Linda Hansen, President Emerita of Hamlin University and a nationally recognized consultant in higher education. Tina Patterson, the principal for Jade Solutions. She's a recognized arbitrator and a mediator. And we also have Amy Schmitz, a prolific scholar who's been at the University of Colorado, University of Missouri, and now holds a chaired position at the Ohio State University Moritz College of Law. So thank you for joining us. I think we've got a good topic. A lot of people are talking about the presidential election coming up, concerns about the age of the two leading candidates. And so I'd like to talk first about is 82 all to be president and where are we with ageism in our society right now? Are things getting worse? Are they getting better? What's your perception of ageism and the presidential election? And Linda, would you like to start us? Of course. The older I get, the more I think, my actual age has jumped up another decade. And yet I feel like I've gone back a decade. I mean, it's all relative in terms of how we feel about our age. I think it's obviously an historical moment to have two 80-year-olds running or post-80-year-olds, all of them in one instance. I think a lot of people misinterpret vitality or the appearance of vitality to be something that ages one, so that if one is perhaps more sedate, in earlier times, we might have thought of that as a person who is more reserved, a person of wisdom, a person who might be more approachable because they're not out there in your face, if you will. Whereas we look at someone else who's very much an extrovert, who's pounding the table and waving the arms and asking for attention in every which way, we might think, well, that person's more vigorous, that person's younger because of the way they appear. So I think oftentimes we look for signals of youth and vitality in the wrong places. They might very well be there, the wisdom, the knowledge, the intelligence, the ability to perform seems to be drifting away because we are locking ourselves into some of the features of what age, the appropriate age might be to be president. Thank you, Linda. Tina? I completely agree with Linda. I am surprised, and I shouldn't be surprised, the age of these candidates wasn't so much talked about in the first round of elections in 2016 timeframe. It's become more apparent, and I think part of it is, as Linda has highlighted, this correlation that we're making between vitality, cognitive ability, and leadership ability with age. And I'll just say, not so certain we can make that correlation. I think the other factor here is that we have a growing number of individuals who can vote, who are looking at these individuals and making the correlation between a great aunt, a great uncle, a grandfather, a great grandfather. I actually have a colleague who refers to the current president as grandpa, which gives me, that coloring already tells me this person thinks, maybe it's time for you to not be in the position of leadership. But I also think it has a lot to do with our Western perspective regarding leadership. Historically, we vote for the candidate that we find the most attractive, usually the taller. When we talk about executive presence and a leader, especially the leader of a head of state, should have a certain profile. And that same profile applies when we look in the business setting. The men should look a certain way, be a certain height, be a certain age. The women should look a certain way, be a certain height. So we have two candidates who for all intents and purposes have the height requirement or close to the height requirement. It's their age that we're talking about. And where does that fit into the cognitive ability? Yeah, well, the American Psychological Association says that ageism is one of the last socially acceptable prejudices. Absolutely. Amy? Yeah, so I would just build on what Tina said. I agree 100%. And I also think that often it's all about the way the media presents the picture of it. So it's been quite concerning to me in the way that media really paints a picture about someone's age and what that means for one individual versus another. And so along with what Linda had mentioned, this idea that vitality is being strong and mean in some circumstances, instead of really thinking in depth about really, are you a good leader? What have you done? I listened to a podcast recently and kind of really looking at the last four years and thinking about really the good things that happened. It's quite amazing that we navigated what could have been a recession. And I think that we often lose track of that because there's so much media around age and what that means. Yeah, special counsel, Robert, her recently released a report about whether there's a prosecution for President Biden's handling of classified documents after he got out of office. And he concluded, no, I don't think he could be prosecuted here, but then kind of threw in this line, I found it to be a sympathetic, elderly old man or elderly. I found to be, I'll quote it exactly, a sympathetic, well-meaning elderly man with a poor memory. What do you think of that? I mean, about having that in the report? I think it went beyond the bounds of his charge and what he was supposed to do as a special counsel and investigator. He could have expressed his conclusion, probably in five pages. And I understand it was many, many more pages than that. I think that to the point of the twists of information and the inflections that are made and the insinuations that are made, just the word elderly. When we're thinking about a president, a sitting president, and then also an election year for the next president, and we're using words like elderly and well-meaning, that kind of a thing immediately denigrates the person, denigrates both of them. And basically, it makes us wonder, well, do they really have their intelligence? Are they able to conduct the business of the country? Are they able to go toe-to-toe with world leaders? And yet if we just reflect back over the last year, if we were able to look at the travel schedule of how our president has been all over the world in incredibly tight timeframes, it's almost as if he's jumping from here to here and you wonder how in the world is he be able to do all of that? I've often thought, I'm not sure I could have the physicality to be able to take that kind of a schedule. So again, I'm kind of back to, there's more than just the mental agility, there's the physical ability to carry out the duties of the office. Words matter. Yeah, senior citizen, elderly, they've got negative connotations. Would we better off, would we just refer to somebody by their actual numerical age when we quite have so many connotations that go along with it? Tina, do you have any more thoughts? I do, and I'm gonna backtrack to what Linda said, which is words matter, and the fact that this person has opined, given a personal opinion about an area to which he has no expertise. We don't know what the president's cognitive ability is. We don't know what his memory is. So to share that statement in a report that's really supposed to be investigating the facts and coming up with a, if you will, an answer or a conclusion based on what's been presented, we don't know whether his memory is good or bad. We can guess at any given moment, most of us forget something or don't recall something and need to either be prodded or suddenly when we're not trying to deal with five or six different things, suddenly remember, oh, yes, this is what I need to take care of. It's not necessarily a factor of age. It's oftentimes you are responding to multiple stimuli and it's the stimuli that's getting your attention at that very moment that you're going to be compelled to react or respond to. So one, the report, but also the words. And I'm gonna go back to this concept of Western versus other cultures. This time last year was in India and it was interesting because I was with a group where I was one of the youngest in the group. The people over 60, everyone over 60 was treated. They got on the plane first when it was time to board the bus to get on the plane. They were given special compensation and what I mean that I'm not talking monetary, but literally people made way, oh, you're over 60. Here, oh, well, you're old. Get in line like everyone else. There's that difference in approach and opinion and in some ways you are becoming less than with age is the complete opposite of what many people in this space are feeling. Going back to the business setting, we see this in the intergenerational workforce. The Gen Z says the baby bloomers and what is sometimes called the silent generation need to go home and stay home and the baby bloomers and silent generation are saying you need to come to work. That this is playing out even in this report and even in the way that we use terms, there should be no stigma attached to being a senior citizen. This person has earned their place, earned their right to be in this space. They could be in a different capacity altogether. So it's that stigma that's attached to the word and part of it is we've allowed it and we continue to allow but also reshaping that conversation. Yeah, I mean, when you think about when you look at late night television hosts and you see what some of those skits are and how people are mocked because of their age and you think, could you have that same skit based on race or ethnicity right now based on gender? Probably not, but somehow it's still acceptable to do it based on age. I mean, it is discouraging how this national debate about our candidates is kind of feared towards ageism instead of about leadership. Experience is worth a lot. And I think one strength of President Biden's is his ability to assemble a really good team. He has wonderful people working for him and that's because he's got the experience that I know who's available, how to use them. And instead of focusing on things like that we're getting distracted by this just numerical debate about age, Amy? Yeah, so I would add in that I think it's also important to think about labels. So when you label someone, the way that they did in that report about Biden, old man, right? You label someone. I think it creates a whole different sort of picture of who they are and what that means. So for example, even in class today teaching contract law we were looking at unconscionability and they label people even in court opinions about someone who's illiterate or who maybe doesn't have like a lot of education and they make a whole lot of assumptions about people based on labels. And so I'm very concerned by the label to say elderly, right, but that label means something. And then that creates a whole kind of connotation that may or may not be right as we've discussed. They may be perfectly vibrant and perfectly in line with understanding best practices and best things that they can do. But I think that we make a lot of assumptions based on labels in our society and we have to be very careful with that. Even today I was very encouraged because students noticed that we were reading different cases and they saw that in the court's opinion. And a student raised his hand and he said, you know, that's not fair and I love that. To me that is exciting about students and being able to like discern that this is an assumption that is not necessarily true. And I think it's really important for us even as a society when we go forward toward the election is never to make assumptions about a label. And that does worry me if they are thinking about things in terms of labels, the whole old man thing. Because that's not really fair. The youngest person might be an old person in other ways. Like intuitively and innovation and all the rest of it. But either way, like I do think that's concerning to me. And I also wanna add one other point which is I feel like things have become so politicized in the way that they even use this which is very concerning to me. Like why aren't we looking at both sides? Democrat, Republican, they're both old. The people who are running. But it seems as though everything is focused on Biden but why are we ignoring the fact that Trump is also old? Yeah. Can I add another point? Sure. And this goes back to what Linda said and there's actual photography that shows this. The physicality of the job as the president of the United States, the demands of the job. I think we saw this more clearly with former President Obama because he actually gave a snapshot of his day and we can safely assume that the other presidents have done more or less the same day. Same thing. Where their day starts at 5 a.m. and ends sometimes at 2 a.m. They may get a phone call in the middle of the night. The stress that that person is under because that call at 2 a.m. is generally not pizzas being delivered. It's usually something urgent, something that requires them getting up and being able to think quickly. I say all this to say, when we look at pictures of former presidents, when they came into office and when they left office, they look, and no disrespect intended, stressed and haggard. They, many of them did their best. President Clinton, the younger President Bush and President Obama, all of them had some form of physical fitness that they were involved in but you see what they look like six months later and it's a refreshed individual. So piling onto this, talking about age, let's talk about really the demands of the job and how that can literally wear down someone. I'm not a physician, but I would say it's safe to say the stress of the job, not just for one term, but for two terms, it's probably the equivalent of lifetime of stress activity and the stress on the body, the stress on the mind, all of that. And that's why experience is so important because it isn't a job that you can do alone. You really need to have talented, reliable, smart, experienced people around you and have the ability to identify who those people are. And that's one of the benefits of being a certain age is that you've seen a lot, met a lot, you know a lot, and you can really assemble a great supporting team. Linda, are you gonna step in? Could I add something that's sort of in a different direction? One of the things I think that's ironic is that we are in an economy that has been developed over the last four years, which everyone was expecting to tank, everyone was expecting to have a recession, something really, really bad was gonna happen. And yet the major driver of the economy, in addition to the expertise of the companies and their evaluation and their growth, is also the investments that people who are in retirement, I like to use preferment rather than retirement because there are many, I almost look at like this is the last third, you know your life kind of divides itself up into different periods of time. And the people who were accruing wealth or accruing money to live and to sustain themselves in the last 20, 30 years of their lives was perhaps for putting their grandchildren through college for a variety of things, maybe being able to travel, do a lot of those kinds of things. But that's a major mover in our economy right now travel, leisure, the kinds of things that people buy as a consumer, that's a whole marketplace. Just take any show and look at the ads. They're all about being well, being healthy. Here's the drug. This is something else that's gonna help you. This is something that's going to make your life better. And all the people who are on those ads, you know, they're not 30 year olds. They're people who are in their 60s and their 70s. Oh, I got this new drug or I did this new thing and I'm in great health now. So it's assuming that all of these things are being indulged in by that demographic. And it has a direct relationship, I think, to the economy. And what is Biden, for example, getting blasted for all, you know, they don't know that many of the things that he has put into place and his team. I agree so much with what David's saying that he's got a fantastic team. And Tina, your reference to how people look. I've been watching Tony Blinken over the last year. He has gone completely gray in one year. And that has to come in the line of duty, in the line of his work. I would also just echo the team aspect. So, Dave, what you mentioned, I really feel strongly on that. You know, if you're wise, you've been around, you know a lot, you're gonna assemble a smart team. And that's really important when we think about government and how it, like honestly, I was trying to explain that to others sort of who think, oh, well, Biden isn't, but look at the team. The team matters because that's who's gonna run things. And even right now, Linda, great points because we've made it through what could have been a recession, why is that? Well, I think the team was smart, right? They were wise. And the team was able to navigate this idea of how do we navigate the interest rates when we're in an inflationary period, right? And so it was a very like difficult dance to make sure that we did it just right. I don't know if people really realized how amazing it is that we did not go into recession. And that is part of the team and the people who were assembled to work with the Biden team. Yeah, if we look backwards and recall what every economist of any note was saying, they were all predicted recession. Everybody was. So it is pretty amazing that we did not stumble into that. That we somehow avoided that. And that's an expert hand that kind of guided us through that. So we're talking about politics and we're talking about ageism just to expand our focus a little bit. Do you see ageism in any other parts of our lives? Anybody can jump in? Every time I go to buy a piece of clothing, I see it. I used to be able to wear a slacks that I didn't have to go and have them hemmed up. And now it's because they're all, again, it's a broad sweeping statement, but I think even the way clothing is made, it is geared toward a certain demographic. And unfortunately, people who are of a certain age end up having to gravitate to a couple of purveyors of clothing that really fit them, fit real bodies that fit people who are of a certain age because when I was 30, it's not a 12 today, believe me, it's not. So maybe you're not relating to this, David, but women were related to this. Things have changed and those manufacturers who've been able to adjust their products to women. And I speak mostly about women, especially skincare products. This product will make you look 30 years younger. I mean, have you got a brown spot on your face? Have you? Is your hair falling out? All these kinds of things. The first thing I think is, okay, maybe we don't need to be fixed. Maybe we are just fine the way we are, but there's this assumption like, oh, we got to keep looking younger. Yeah, to me that's ageism. Academia, right? Like you look at an older professor and right away, you think, oh, they're not gonna understand, they're not with it. And even my sisters are both teachers and my one sister has gone gray, but she's dyeing her hair. And I asked her, why not just go gray? She's like, students wouldn't respect her if her hair was gray, which to me is so sad. But I think ageism is why. Tina, any thoughts? Absolutely, to Linda's point, I see it in the business setting and I see it on two sides. I see it in hiring. And is this person, can this person perform their duty? Are they too old? Are they going to, instead of looking at, can they perform the essential job function that you have written? And we see it in settings where, when it comes to technology, well, such and such is in a label-less place. Well, he's older, so he's not going to be able to do it or she's older, she's technology averse. You don't know that. And so you've actually spoken with the person. And it goes the other way. We've talked about ageism looking at those who are older in years, but it can also go the other way, as I mentioned before, having someone you're going to talk to in an interview and assuming her information indicates she's X years old or she recently graduated and you're expecting the person to come in and not look necessarily appropriate for work or for an interview. It goes both ways, but again, back into that intergenerational workforce, this constant push-pull, who's got the power? Who's going to be the decision maker? And giving each other the grace and space to say, you bring something to the table, let's see what it is and where does it fit in the bigger picture instead of automatically assuming there's a limit, a limitation or you can't do something. My cousin does post-production video work. And at one point he was president of Richard Branson's post-production company. He did post-production work for Madonna for the biggest pop stars. This year he turned 60. He's got this long resume of accomplishments, but people are not hiring him now. In that world, he turned 60. Regardless of, he's the same guy. He's got all the talents he had before and he's better than he ever was, but he's really encountering difficulty in that industry. So I do think that it is kind of pervasive and we do need to push back against it and be aware. And when we see somebody mocking older people as kind of a, this is our theme for our comedy, we got to draw the analogy to other groups that are being disadvantaged and say that, look, you wouldn't tolerate for these other groups, don't tolerate it here either. I think that's really important to call it out. I happened to be getting on an elevator the other day and there was this workman and he had his light and he had his ladder. And so when I looked at him, I said, there's a man with a ladder. He's got a day before I started to chat him up. And I could see, because he was a nice attractive young man and he was surprised. I could see the surprise on his face that I was trying to engage him. And we had a lovely conversation, but they just don't expect that kind of a conversation. They don't expect to be engaged by someone like me, whereas maybe someone younger, they would expect to have a look and a little bit of a conversation or whatnot. And I just do it just for the heck of it. I think it's fun to just get people talking. And they always react, they generally react very positively. I'm looking at our clock. I see we've got a minute and 15 seconds left. So time flies when we're having fun. Any final thoughts? I'll start with Tina. Dave, I think about how much in our lifetime, when we're young, we want to be older. And then we reach a point, it's usually around 40 when we realize, oh my gosh, I'm running out of time. And now, because of where we are as a society, it's don't you want to be young again? And the answer is no, I love exactly where I am. That's great. So my big takeaway is labels. I feel like labels aren't appropriate. We need to look at the people and think about how they are and what they can do and not put labels on people. And that to me is discrimination no matter what, to put a label on someone and assume negative or positive based on that label. And Linda. I would just say finally, if we could get the message of live in the present, if we could just live in the present, I think we'd all be better off. Well, thank you for a really wonderful conversation. I can't believe how quickly the time flew by. It's a rich topic and when we need to talk about more. Yes. I'm watching my clock. I think we're out of time. I wanna thank everybody for joining us and hope you turn into Think Tech Hawaii again. And I think we're out.