 Hey, Carolyn, are you there? Oh, okay. That's weird. You're all dark for a few seconds. I know my camera The camera doesn't like me Give me grief. How you doing? Good. I'm eating lunch. So, big army. I had a lunch of champions and had a scoop of ice cream. Oh Wow, that sounds good. It's pretty warm here today. So So It's cold, cold, cold. It was like 45 when I woke up this morning. I don't know if it's just gonna be us today. Okay, I haven't done anything since last week. So we can do a working game today. Yeah, that can work. Let me I can catch up on what I've been doing today On what? I can catch up on what I did today. Oh, sure. Um, share my screen because it's actually just like a lot of little things So I went into the project templates repo And I don't realize There was a bunch of things that were kind of missing So one You guys just walk through the You don't have rights to this PR. I'm sorry. It says repo. Um, Paris doesn't a whole bunch of people don't So I submitted a PR to Basically give this repo the same permissions as the other repo that we have and so this will add you and Paris and Don and Jennifer and Josh and Stefan and Veils So that we can get people to approve these PRs that I submitted Um, so I should get looks at pretty soon cool I um Have one that that was actually from two weeks ago, which is to rename master to main We agreed on that to a while ago that we wanted to do that Um, so we renamed it from master to main and then in marx's repository is a template Okay, and what's kind of cool about that Is now when someone looks at our readme It'll look like yeah, I'll show me. I'll show you another one I'll show you skeletor It'll look like this Use this template Oh, cool Yeah, the middle like clone the whole thing really nice and easy and it won't quite be a fork then it'll be like their own standalone repo Which is nice. Um I added a quote of conduct There are two contributor covenant versions that are really out there And I went with 1.4 Is this the one that's used for cncf in general or? Yeah, so cncf in general uses 1.4 So that's that's what I went with If we take a look at it, this is the This is this is what we use um for like kubernetes Mm-hmm. Um So what's contributor covenant? Um contributor covenant Was started I'm blanking out her name. Did she put her name on here? Coraline. Have you do you familiar with Coraline? Okay, uh, so Coraline, I think she she and she worked at uh could help for a while I think she was really active. I think in the ruby community as well um and has worked quite a bit at the forefront of defining That we need code of conducts What should be in them how to enforce them and then getting? um projects to use them cool and so this is kind of A generalized code of conduct that people can Can use that that we would that has been like versioned over time I see um in the latest version is 2.0, but Last year's code of conduct committee for kubernetes looked at it And uh, you know, we weren't quite sure if this was something that um, it had had different things in it Different concepts and ideas that we weren't quite sure especially like the enforcement guidelines um, we weren't sure if this was something that projects would want to adopt without a lot of customization Um, then we could like a generically adopt Yeah, whereas 1.4 Um, doesn't isn't as proscriptive about what will happen It just says what? Um isn't isn't isn't allowed um wait, so then I have a question. I guess this is like what you're doing really your well okay, so like Have you seen paris's um like have MD doc about like having a code of conduct committee at the cncf level? I think there was like The beginnings of it. Yeah I may have I may have seen that um, I'm just wondering like now that you're bringing up the code of conduct stuff kind of like where You know like where Do the terms or something like that at a cncf level? Kind of happen like if it is part of this things charter or does it like happen like Oh, sorry. I was just saying this is just a template Yeah, or if you do not have a code of conduct This is a generally acceptable one that the cncf itself has used on many projects Yeah, so it sounds like there's a few like I guess there's like a few different sides to this right because there's like the side of it where it's like The documentation which is what you're trying to provide right like a template and then there's like that I guess covered inside of code of conduct things and um, okay Yeah, I was just wondering like kind of where those talks would happen if it would be within the state or not Yeah, I don't know where that would happen. I don't know where that has that that particular effort to have a Higher level Discussion about kind of code of conducts in the cncf. Yeah, um Because you know one of the questions I was asking was um for for code of conduct As we add one and I kind of added notes in here So I tweaked one thing that isn't part of the this default template added it to do And I said you need to decide who will handle the code of conduct reports and like edit it Yeah, um, because I've I've been telling people look for to-dos right so just to help them find where they should Do a final place. Um, but we also I wanted to recommend that they have at least two people In the template, I don't go into great detail into why but if we had like companion advisory guides You know the reasons are if you only have one person how do you report that one person? Yeah, things like that Recurs yourself. Yeah. Yeah, you can't recuse yourself. Exactly. You can't go on vacation What if you're you know, there's all sorts of situations where you need more than one person to handle reports Yeah And you know like from being on the committee, there's a lot of different Things involved with it beyond just having this document, right? There's no training at all We insist as part of the cncf that you have a code of conduct We don't insist that you are equipped at all to know what to do if someone emails you Right. Yeah That you know how to handle it appropriately Um With discretion without harming people further. Yeah That you actually act on it Right, you know anyways Um, I I don't know where that that belongs to be honest, but we we can ask Paris at the next meeting maybe Yeah More developments that We're like there are dots that I just hadn't yet connected but um, okay Yeah, but as far as like what's a safe? Uh, credit conduct, this is the one that most of the projects use So I felt You know, if you don't know what to pick here, here's the template that you can just have. Yeah Um, so that's trying to like fill out This repo and then there's a read me now That i'm adding That will walk people through okay, you copy this repo. What are you supposed to do with it? What's in this repo? Yeah, who is responsible for the repo. So yeah, I mentioned it's part of You know our group You know how to how to click on the button and use it Um, and then what's required? Oh, you know over time as we build up this repository Not everything we put in here you have to do right some things may be for incubating or graduated Or just a nice to have Yeah, yeah So I try to add things and just be like this is what you have to do and maybe there's some advice in particular to a template Um that we could you know give people further information on and then I thought at the bottom We could there's a comment here. You can't quite see it if I Once you're done reading through and following everything we kind of tell you to rip everything out at the top and then You know the rest of the read me's yours um You remind me like so you said some of these aspects are required, but also like are these things that like cncf will Enforced projects to use for like as templates or is it still like more of like hey like you need to have this kind of document or something Um It's a mix and match Yeah, um, for example, you must have a license. Yeah It must Um the open source It is strongly recommended that is patchy too Um, if you don't use a patchy too, there's a different review process For your submission for your project to get into the cncf. Yeah, um So because of that our template is a patchy too right, right um, and then our Advice like the documentation whatever outside of the template we can mention that and say like hey if you really need something different You can do something else and some of that falls into governance. I think not contributor growth Yeah, um or for like the contributing document if we take a look at it They don't have to have All of these things in here. You must have a contributing guide And uh, it must hit on certain topics, right? Um, but For example, does it need to say how to sign your commits? No It's just kind of a template to to get your role and I get you thinking. I think that I would hope that as a group we don't focus too much on what is Directly required in the content Of our templates to be like we only put in what's required Yeah, we put in what we'd like to see people do and if they use our template it's because Um, they're hoping to just have a good Contributing guide and not Just meet the line item if we have a contributing guide. Yeah Okay, um Because then I think we can really Put a ton of effort into to creating some really useful documents that don't just say well, we've we've you know Check to checkbox Because if they just want to check to check boxes they can read the toc guidelines Um, it's it's really short It's like Six bullet points honestly Um all the repos everything our Group is trying to do I think is is try to help people who are in good faith trying to do a lot more Yeah But it is helpful times to call out like what do you have to do when you're when you're looking at like a list of six Or 20 templates like which ones do you really have to do now? Which ones can you kind of like save for later? Yeah, totally Um, I don't know. Does that does that help? Yeah, yeah Okay, um, so that's what I was just what I was trying to do to Uh get get this Repos, that's why a bit further along Um, because if we could get it to the point where it represents What you need to say say do sandbox sandbox has the most people starting a brand new blank repo That would be terribly useful Yeah, I'm already thinking of like a group i'm working with that's like just about to open source of project and yeah Yeah, I think that'd be good. Um, if we look at our There we go This is what we have to do for our working group More contents we have to create. Yeah So we have the license already it was in there We just didn't have instructions on what to do with it Um, we have the contributing What I did with the read me actually isn't enough I think we need more instructions on like what else should be in a read me Sure like contact info a couple other things Joining meanings, you know Um, but we're getting we're getting there uh the contribution ladder Um, and and some of these other things are like really nice things to have but none of them are required by the Yeah, let me move up owners file actually because owners is And governance Owners is required for sandbox Okay, and governance is required for incubating And contribution ladder is required later too That's for incubating as well But if we could get like everything for sandbox and be like hit a milestone where say like If you're a sandbox project, you can actually use this and it has everything you need I feel like we would have hit a really good spot. Yeah Um, I'm sorry. I've kind of just gone off on a very long tangent, but that's what I've been doing Oh Can Oh, sorry, do you all look at something else? Oh, I just I was gonna ask you to scroll down so I can see the rest of that page I was almost like on the table This was like we just kind of made like a bucket list really of Things we could do what are advisories as opposed to templates So a template is just strictly this is the output file that that you'll need in your repository So for example The contributing guide or the contribution ladder right but there may be something equivalent to Just the web page that we may have Or mark markdown file and repo, uh, that that just has guidance that we talk about How you would go about not just like creating the content in that file, but The wise really the wise and then the how of implementing some of this stuff And so if we're talking about the contribution ladder, for example, we may talk about how do you identify people who Look to be ready to be kind of encouraged to Move up the ladder And and what do you do? How do you how do you foster and kind of sponsor them through that process? And and just for your things that they don't need to be in the template, right? Uh, but maybe they need to be just guidance That we provide So they're kind of companion Yeah walls of text To go with our templates Okay That makes sense. I mean that's kind of what you've been wrapping things full-time, right? No Um, you know in some templates don't need the command and wall of text like yeah the license file The meet me file, but some of these other documents they they represent actually a lot There yeah Yeah, see you said you haven't had a chance to work on it much more Yeah, I touched it since we had our um our working session Is there anything I can do to help? Do you think that you've decided Maybe on How we'd like to get it to the next step like there's more things we should collaborate on in this document first I think they're I try to remember. I think we had some questions around governance that we wanted to ask josh, right? Yeah, we go through some of the comments How world decisions are made and by whom I had to say that the same everywhere Calling people contributors I don't think I see the question for josh. Was it um teams man so many notifications, um Was it about maybe involuntary removal of the stepping down process or inactivity perhaps I remember it being specific so like it was like a weird line between like uh, like, you know the contributed ladder and like governance specifically, um Because I know that you know, what's out of scope is project lead roles like you don't see project lead or so not project lead like, um chair um things like that Wait, is that some are you saying that we should add that though? Well, so project lead is a section and then yeah, I didn't really think about like chair but like being a like a Chairs are usually for what like sigs Or are their project chairs? Is that a thing? I think there's people who are involved with the governance of the project and then there are Yeah, I think that's where it gets fuzzy. I think we're gonna have to have josh chat with us about the intersection between the governance doc which talks again about government governance roles and then these contributor roles so Like maybe project lead shouldn't be on here. Okay. Um, I'm gonna make the comment here so we don't forget Yeah, I think that's what we should ask him about. I'm not sure if there was there was more What do we want to specifically ask josh? Does this belong in this guide? Or in the governance or do we only or do we like limit the scope of what we talk about in the project lead role and then reference like Go look at governance for more information about this role How do we make sure that we don't have two disjoint documents? But still adequately represent Some of the other roles here Ask josh about if the project lead slash chair role should exist here or does this fall within governance? People want to make sure So if you and I think about this for a minute here, what did we mean when we said project lead? um so I think this is when you talked about how like if cncf comes and talks to someone From a project that is you know a project lead If there are decisions being made This person has the authority to make those decisions Okay, and like I think in a sense there's like kind of like a public Association of the project lead with the project and so Yeah, and then like And then I think you said like the project lead doesn't necessarily like work on like the like Code aspect of the project and it's more like administrative maybe or like The tasks that they've said they're signed up for is part of this role Isn't technical decisions Yeah potentially yeah, this is definitely a A real conversation with josh um Thanks for asking about that. Yeah, all of these right here Like this is governments. I think like the the reason why it's governance. This is because it's makes decisions Of the project not just technical So then if we still kind of have that bit to detangle should I Put this in the draft folder on github or should I just? Do you like a little doc for now? Like I'm just wondering if that conversation will josh, um Like fit better with one or the other I don't really care I don't think it'll matter. Um, I think one thing that this is missing at the moment is it's very, um It's still kind of like an outline. Yeah. Yeah um Are you interested in trying to do paragraph eyes Oh, okay. Yeah, I was gonna work off of like what you had done for the project template like the way that you presented that um like is that A good example to work off of or do you want it more? paragraphy When you say the project template, can you I think let me I think I have one of your Do you have a link? Oh, sorry. It was the contributing one What's actually committed or? um I just have this window specifically open Like this one right here. Um, the one that I sent you On chat right now. Oh, sorry. I never see chat because it's uh, yeah, no worries. It's like stealth. Okay This one What's kind of a mix isn't it? Yeah Whoa What? Oh Yeah, look at it in raw form although I don't see you just say the word to do it. You're like, what happened? I wrote a bunch of text So like there there is bulleted, but we still Have more than just a line of text like I think we have enough outline that you and I understand it But they're just like requirements Right Or like follower viewing guide like this isn't enough for someone other than you and I to read um I think we need for example, maybe like a A template for what each one of these could look like so let me just say like Well templates would be Something like Like a long form description Oops, that's in bold Like the thing you and I just went through when we said what's the magic lead? Uh trying to just distill that a little bit into a sentence or two. Yeah And then have it be like responsibilities and um Actually Like things you get to do and things that you have to do Well, it's kind of how it's outlined right now, right? Yeah, I'm just saying we can make like a A template so it's not just literally bam, bam, bam bullet points without oh, you're saying like have a template that applies to Okay, as opposed to like having each section and then the bullet points like just have like one set of Yeah, that's all I was just saying like we can have like a world template It says like the title right so this would be like Community member for example. Yeah, and it would say Whatever it is or whatever it's some deep thoughts we have about This right right and then responsibilities and this is where our templates come in our our bullets come in You know Two to whatever And things you have to do Um I'm just right shoot. I'm liking on the word here Privileges there we go It just made it. I don't know. It could be whatever so like for example here we may like Okay, um Sure, and then each one would look like this instead of all the bullet points Um And I think just then when we give people a contributor letter template that then they would go in and add it Okay And then we could just tell them to do Pick which one of these you do you have you may not have community managers so you can delete it Sure And we can just try to try to find our bullet points and make them fit in Yeah, if you want we can try to do this right now if you want your time back We can just say later I realize I have another meeting here Oh, I'm sorry. Okay. No worries. Yeah, like walkie you like put my meeting at 2 30. Um, so, um, but yeah, um Do you want to take time to work on it this week? Yeah, sure I'll send you another tolerant bite for another working group for working session. Um Yeah, yeah, I think we can do this and then we can submit that draft and you know, we'll follow up with josh When he has when he has time. Okay. Cool. Thank you. Thanks. Bye. Bye