 We just started to see your life. Oh, yeah, also Okay Well, hello everyone. I'm Jonathan Sumiccio. I'm a second year PhD student at Ohus University in Denmark and I'm also part of the Einstein project And it's my great pleasure to be here today opening up this first Einstein webinar with three wonderful speakers and I'm gonna present them in a moment, but Before we start I would like to spend a few words on what is actually Einstein and As you can see from here, Einstein is an acronym of a quite long name but more importantly is a consortium of almost 30 members between academia and industry and 15 PhD students are currently enrolled in seven different universities But among the industry partners we have also the Hyperledger foundations, which is why they're co-hosting the webinar together with us today and If you want to know more about the project, I believe Vivian is going to share the project website shortly in the chat So Speaking of collaborations between different institutions This the organization of this webinar wouldn't have been possible without the contribution of Other four PhD students whose name are Christina, Nicola, Vivian, and of course David from from the Hyperledger Foundation. So thanks to all of them and Before we start I would just like to spend a few words on the agenda of today's webinar So today we are gonna have three presentations Each lasting 15 minutes followed by a five-minute buffer for any question that you might have or you Might come up right after the talk Eventually at the end we're gonna have also 20 minutes for Q&A. So if you want to take Some more time to think about or to come up with some questions. You have time also to what the end and I think we are Ready to start with Marin so Marin is Associate professor at Copenhagen Business School and is also a visiting scholar at Lula University in Sweden University of Technology in Sweden His main research interest Concerned digital transformation in different sectors and manufacturing maritime and healthcare But also the rise of platforms Platform ecosystems in the B2B context, which is why he's here with us today and finding my Marin administers also blog on industry platforms research and I'm gonna share it in In the chat because I think it might be Interesting for many of you in the audience So I think that sits on my side. So Marin If you're ready, the floor is yours Thank you All right perfect So thank you very much for for invitation It's been a pleasure to collaborate with Tomas Sedej who is a Member of the Hyperledger He joined Hyperledger after finishing his PhD here at CBS. So we've been working On blockchain based platform research for a while. Actually, that was his Main focus of the PhD. So that's how I got actually engaged with blockchain based platform specifically, however, I've been interested in Industry platforms for a while and I will tell you how I arrived to industry platform specifically so my my main interest During my PhD was servitization, right? That's the ugly word Servitization so focusing increasingly on services because competing With Products became increasingly difficult right making a distinction on a product basis Was was difficult for companies, right? So they were trying to bundle product services But then after a service layer, right? The digitalization came as as another layer, right? So it became really interesting to see how Now companies are combining product service, but also a digital layer and digital layer Requires a platform, right? Always So that that's kind of how I arrived to to industry platform specifically right through the literature of servitization and now Increasingly a digital servitization, right? It's a still phenomena, right? That's kind of the problem with that literature because it's there is no theory of servitization in the digital So we are looking for a different theoretical homes when we kind of write a paper because that's still a phenomena, right? So as paper this is a slide about me. Yeah, I'm actually a computer scientist or information systems Was my bed my major and then I escaped from Computer science to business right now Management scholars are running to digital and I actually escaped from the digital So it's very interesting to me and to see how this evolved. I had some consulting experience also some industry experience in Italy and also Molson course mostly like a global ruin company And then yeah today. I also consult the Danish government Since COVID crisis. I've been helping them on increasing the testing capacity, right? So more or less, this is my profile Cambridge. I've seen I've been at Cambridge as well At easy to the front of for manufacturing. So I've been working with professor nearly for a while On servitization as well, right? So now let's get to platform ecosystem So I've been told to focus a bit more on theory because I think other speakers will show Plenty of empirical examples, right? So I was thinking what would be the most useful for the audience to kind of digest This literature a bit better or if they already know how the literature is structured Maybe what would be my my a contribution, you know to to to you In that sense, right? So I was thinking what would be the key? concepts and Key papers and I will try to build a narrative from there. So the other writes 2017 General management definitely so alignment of structure. So we usually have a multilateral set of partners, right? They're different in size and interest and we will try to ensure alignment structures. So this is an important Construct when we talk about Ecosystems right and the focal value proposition or like the single Point of, you know, convergence of different partners is also increasingly A study right how we Ensure that these multilateral set of partners. They all have a common goal or a common or Contribute in their way to the common focal value proposition. Then of course we have quite a paper When they said well, it's not all a Partners that are all Complementers not all partners are complementers. So He has a notion that, you know, the generic complementarities They're not really a Complementers so so when we talk about complementarities, we talk about non generic Complementarity and that's that's kind of important. It goes from the modularity literature. It can go from generic to super generic Supermodular Complementarities another important thing that I really highlight to my students It's that, you know, in the typical value chain because I teach supply chain management, you know, typical supply chain We are usually, you know, hierarchically controlled and In this context of Ecosystems we have a notion of Where partners are non here. They're not hierarchically controlled, which is very important, right? So they are Interdependent but they are interrelated, right? So this is something just to set the base of what the ecosystem is So now when we discuss a platform ecosystem, right? So There is some platform architecture, right when we say architecture We think about technology, right? Modules like technology or modules and on top of that this platform architecture is actually an enabling layer You can say Konstantinides and other scholars would say or Tillson, right? They would say it's a digital Infrastructure depending which perspective you take but the platform architecture Is enabling layer, right? And on top of it, we would have an ecosystem an ecosystem, right? so Very important paper also Recent Kretschmer about platform ecosystem as meta organizations very important paper. I Think you should all read it if you're interested in this, right? So and then the last But probably the most important concept is the governance, right? And we will talk a bit more about the governance of such platforms So the platform governance is really important. So what I did in my Technovation paper Which was published like two years ago now, I think we got the volume 2022 But it's it's been published for a while We made a Frankenstein definition which combines all Possible smart definitions So we said that platform ecosystem is a meta organizational form and we have enabling Platform architecture, right? It's a supported by a set of governance mechanisms and governance mechanisms are necessary to cooperate Coordinate integrate diverse set of partners, right diverse actors activities interfaces and what's the point? The point is to increase the platform value True customized platform services so that stores the end gets very Busy but but that's kind of how we define it When it comes to platform value my colleague from CBS Carmilla cinema has a really important paper as well in Academy of Management Perspectives. So I also Encourage you to check how Carmilla conceptualized the platform value in terms of platform identity and and a platform scope So this is also something from from my side So if these are the concepts right now that that that kind of I Presented here the most important concepts that that you can engage in you in your research But also that are interesting when we discuss the platforms Both empirically and theoretically the trade lens Is a blockchain based platform that we studied Unfortunately, it failed after Or it got discontinuated after we published the paper It would be much better to have a case of you know That it was discontinued before we published the paper, but still we we are still fine with what we presented in that paper And I will present a few learnings That that we got from from that from that a paper and Then across these concept that I Introduced now right so so I'm trying to be systematic to some extent. So this is now a Trade lens Conceptualized like we have a platform architecture, right the IT infrastructure on the bottom. It's based on the blockchain network I will not go into details we interviewed Both representatives of IBM and trade lens And also MERSC initially. So so it was a qualitative paper and The platform architecture on this graph represents right the bottom side It's of course utilizes the the API's the API's are Were something what I would say semi open they were open to to most of the Complement or startups or interested party willing to collaborate with them, but they were not I would say completely open and then marketplace is How we basically build an ecosystem right on top of it. So the third-party applications is is actually The the essence of that ecosystem, however in most of the industrial Setting that the platform sponsor would develop initial set of functionalities and applications and then They would represent the core the similar case is with Cognify that I also study developed by Kong's very maritime Or other platforms in the industrial mining or other sectors, right? So basically the platform sponsor would develop a few apps and then on they would invite also other Complementers to build more Applications on top What was that the sore the key point? The key value proposition of the whole initiative is that it was industry wide platform It's there is a distinction at least in my mind when we talk about industry and industrial So industry wide meaning like end-to-end industry integration. So trade lens Try to do end-to-end industry integration. So try to follow the shipment from end-to-end and all the actors and involved in that Shipment right when we talk or at least when I talk about Industrial platform we think about maybe a mining site and then we would try to call connect different Let's say provider like a caterpillar Komatsu Volvo Around the mine and then still open the API is to let's say drone Manufacturers like DJI and other to to provide some complementary services on top right, but it's not The aim is not to connect the industry as a whole. It's more about the focal solution or an application, right? So these are the key actors trade lens was targeting like authorities screening shipment, right Of course ocean carriers course and terminal a lot of potential savings for for this Area and then exporters importers trade providers definitely a lot of potential Benefits for them as well, right? So in what if there is like three important distinction In in platform ecosystem research again I'm nailing over and over one is a platform architecture or just architecture The other one is community, right? So when if you have an ecosystem, you need to have a community of different firms big and small heterogeneity is high, but it's a community, right? And we can have a different techniques How we can engage that a community how we can make sure that the community is generating value for us and the third one is A governance, right? So we need a proper governance to connect basically All together, right? So we have architecture community and governance at least in my head. This is The most important ones and and you will see what other scholars think how we can extend even these three key concepts In the context in the context of generativity. So still I think we are playing with these three key concepts The the governance the community and in the architecture Alright, so I'm careful about the time and then, you know Maybe what I will all present some of the lessons learned from from our case of Blockchain application in the global supply chain, but I think when it comes to the blockchain and in general with the data You know analytics in general and the data driven operations It is important to kind of have a step back and ask yourself What problem we are trying to solve, right in the first place? And I think this is in general problem with the blockchain Not technology per se, but but with the many applications That that that are building on top of blockchain, right? What what we are trying to solve and Whether blockchain is the right technology to to address that Problem, right? I will leave this to you, but I think you you you you know what I'm what I'm aiming for In light of the trade lens overall, and I think you can think about different Platforms Like I think we need to be very critical when it comes to the the the core Value of of the platforms that are based on the blockchain and and ask ourselves whether the blockchain is Really a solution a trust-building mechanism and whether it is necessary To achieve what we want to achieve, right? I'm not saying blockchain is not the right solution I think it's amazing solution. I think we just need to be very critical about it. So the inefficiencies in the shipping industries are just Massive, right? It's a massive inefficiencies in the shipping so so It's really old very Traditional outdated industry very conservative industry that the systems are introduced over, you know Many years by different actors for different purpose It's not a secret that at Merce like there are so many different platforms that even like that the employees at Merce They don't know what platforms to use, right? So and this is the same across the shipping the carriers, right? so because it's such a big a system and That is very difficult to change that it is changing but but slowly so, you know Blockchain was supposed to be a right solution for it, right? So because this is what we we have a technology that can address something problems like, you know Different perspectives on the transaction status, right? So this is exactly what we are trying to achieve Well, then, you know, the big companies are usually, you know, slow and you know outdated that the technology is a space where a smaller companies are much more competitive, right? So it was also Interesting interaction with different industries are converging Like the old industry shipping industry, you can think about different industries that are really traditional They're converging with the startup entrepreneurial space and that's also what is happening in this sector. So we've seen a lot of that So Digitizing records and handling data security with high precision. So basically that was the kind of selling point. So we want to digitize All the record and we want to handle security with high precision. So When I when I discussed with the IBM guys, so so they told me, Marie, listen, the key point in our solution was that basically You could share sensitive data without seeing what is in the block basically. So that was kind of the value proposition. So kind of Really Having access to data without seeing the data and that's the core of the The solution and definitely reducing transaction costs and Smart contracts, smart contracts and all other benefits would be part of the ecosystem. Right. And this is something we unfortunately The platform didn't live long enough to to to see the smart contracts and the flourishing the ecosystem on top of it. Right. But we may see it in different sectors where the smart contracts and different startups, complementors will develop A solution to to to, you know, self-automate self-execute a contract in a specific context and have a firm and have a, you know, legit Be legit complement around it. So So that's the basis was this seamless integration transparency and then layer of data was promising like an amazing ecosystem on top. Right. So once we have this basic A platform architecture established the data layer was extremely promising to to to unlock the whole ecosystem of application across the end to end, you know, shipping Global supply chain. Right. So that was the The idea now the governance was yeah, the governance is the key issue in all platforms and then specifically ministry by platforms Because the the neutrality of the platform is is very important. Right. So so you know that the mask is one of the competitors in the industry. And I think regardless of trying to kind of this, you know, make a distinction and from from the original idea It was really difficult to for for other, you know, partners to to, you know, to just accept it or maybe to I would say from from the other perspective to gain traction right to to adopt the platform right so The notion of You know, in the context where data is extremely valuable and data is extremely sensitive. The neutrality of the platform sponsor is almost an imperative right so so when data is so valuable. It is just impossible maybe in some other context where data is not so valuable. Actors complementors partners are are fine with with with having a, you know, different I'll come to say a different Power position from the platform sponsor or platform owner as it's written in the literature in in this kind of context that that was a big problem and it was impact it was impacting the industry wide adoption. So now what is the governance and then what we distinguish a three type of governance the first one was the on chain, like on the technology on the block chain technology governance the second one was off chain and we said it's kind of more strategic Governance like how we were set the, you know, let's say hypothetically revenue models or how we will split appropriate value or how we will govern, you know, our partners set inter organizational relationships. And the third one was just interoperability. It's kind of a bit of both, but we believed it's so important that the interoperability that it requires, you know, a governance on its own like so the third type we said it's interoperability governance right. So, in that sense, one more one more important, you know, take away that that it's not specifically from trade lines but from other platforms that I studied is that the B2B platforms are very different from B2C and the main distinction is that, you know, onboarding is difficult onboarding is is the one on one onboarding is is long and and, you know, self selection. It's very hard to be on a B2B platform so so complementors or partners cannot be added based on self selection so I'm just joining the platform know so we need an onboarding process and we see across the industry, specifically Eric zone has been doing quite good in making a system to to and to ensure that the partners can onboard. But at the same time have scale right because it's impossible to change the industry if you have to as a platform sponsor or a key partner to to to do to to onboard each and every each and every partner individually so one of the last points is the interoperability. The standard digital standardization is the key and and I've been involved with DCSA who was developing the standards for this industry and they play the really important role in and will in will play important role in the future for industries like this that are very. You know, or very sensitive about the data. Last slide for scholars, young scholars, I will share what I do currently it's a generativity I work on generative generative ecosystems, and again, as you can see the generative architecture governance and community are the key constructs that other scholars picked. They just added generativity on top. Please read the paper and and you will see how combination of these three are unlocking combinatorial potential right so what we have to do with the governance architecture and community to really unlock the combinatorial innovations. So that's all from my side I think I'm already stepping on on on other presenters time but this is all for now. Great thanks thanks marine for the presentation I think many of the things and terms that you have mentioned so far can speak to both Daniela. Doug, for example, community architecture governance. I think all these terms are very dear to the hyper ledger foundation or Linux foundation or community at large. So I'm now, I think we don't have unfortunately time now for questions but if you have, we can get back to it during the final Q&A. So now I'm going to introduce the next speaker who is Daniela Barbosa. Yeah, perfect. You're already sharing the screen and Daniela serves as a general manager blockchain and identity at the Linux foundation and as executive director of hyper ledger foundation. Daniela has more than 20 years of enterprise technology experience as she actually started her career at Dow Jones, but one of her passions. I would say is related to the concept of digital identity and data portability, which is why she first got involved in the early web 2.0 community and then she got closer to the blockchain space. So I think after this theoretical perspective now we're going much more into the technicalities to some extent and then the business perspective. So Daniela, if you're ready, over to you. Well, Jean Lorenzo thank you for inviting us and for coordinating with Einstein we're very excited in our collaboration with you and the rest of the organization there as we get closer to the academic community working on blockchain and if you think about, you know, what our community at the hyper ledger foundation but the greater enterprise blockchain community, the lessons learned that we also have had and Martin spoke to some of those it's amazing. From a trade finance perspective, obviously in supply chain. It is about digital transformation, and it's a problem that, you know, a lot of these organizations are still not ready for it, but also it's a fantastic opportunity. I love the framing that Martin started with about architecture community and governance. If you think about open source and why open source I think it really focuses. And I'm going to focus on that today. For those of you who might be new to the hyper ledger foundation, it is a foundation that since 2015. Early on in the blockchain days has really been focused around building cross industry communities that are working on blockchain and blockchain related technologies and I'll mention quite a few about those today. I just talked first about the importance of open source and the importance of if you are building global networks and communities, much like Marin talked about and Doug will talk about that circular is building, why open source is so critical. The Linux foundation is hosted by the Linux foundation or one of hundreds of different projects within the Linux foundation. And the goal of the Linux foundation is really just to create and enable open source collaboration with developers and users of open source Let me just hold this out a year sorry I have my video on top of me. We are a nonprofit organization that for the last 20 years has really been building some of the most important open source critical projects in the world. These are just some of the logos by category, but if you think about the things you touch day in day out from a technology perspective, whether in your enterprise use, you know, employment and the companies that you work with, or in any of your interactions with your phones with social media applications, most likely even films watching you know one of your favorite films or Netflix series, most likely there is open source software that has come that is hosted, and the community is hosted here at the Linux foundation and obviously blockchain and blockchain related technologies are certainly one of them as well. The importance of that is that we continue to be a place where there's free exchange of data code and innovation. We have over 2,500 companies that support the Linux foundation and it's hundreds of different open source projects, but it's really about being once again that part of modern technology and how technology is being used and creating a place for companies individuals and very importantly more and more government organizations to come in to not only use the code but contribute to the code to build what we here at the Hyperledger Foundation we call you know building better together but how do we collaborate on the things that are critical for the future of financial services infrastructure of supply chains of healthcare systems that we do that in the open and collaboratively using open source. When you think about open source code a lot of people know open source code you go to a github repository, you see your code you're able to look at it, some you're able to contribute or you make bug requests or submit a bug or make a request of that code projects, but there's really a lot of other things that go on behind the scene to make an open source community like the Hyperledger Foundation and many of the other ones here at the Linux Foundation, really really successful and really being able to deliver what we call enterprise grade code and communities to these multiple industry use cases that we'll talk about today. The Linux Foundation and this obviously includes a lot of what the Hyperledger Foundation does for our projects and our communities does a lot of support and resources of the developers and the communities that the developers are part of really focusing on making sure that there's neutral management of the code so meaning that there's not one vendor to rule them all that, you know, controls the code. There's also ways to make sure that there's training and certifications so that if you want to be a certified fabric hyperledger fabric certified developer, for example, there is a place for you to go to and if you want to hire someone that for example is a hyperledger certified service provider, there is a program for that for you to use as well. And this is all about the maturity of the code that we go through. So the Linux Foundation delivers a wide range of services to really make sure that open source and the communities are able to be used and adopted in many of these very large organizations and the hyperledger foundation as part of it. There is no doubt that open source is eating the world, 78% of companies are already using open source and numbers probably even higher than that, and 63% are participating they're contributing they're participating in an open source community, whether it be something like the Linux Foundation or other projects that are out there. And it doesn't seem to be slowing down anytime soon as you can see the number of libraries that have been open source since 2012 continue continue continue to grow and I think we'll see more and more of that. And certainly in the blockchain and digital identity space open source is really won the game it is the only way that code can be implemented and should be implemented in our opinion into these systems as well. And what happens is when open source does is it's going to enable a companies to really shape reshape the industry value chain in both ways that are neutral. So creating these industry platforms like Marin was talking about, and we're here Doug talking about as well with circular that are industry platforms that multiple participants are part of, right that community aspect of creating these platforms, and also that are able to create the competitive goals right very often Marin talked about this, you have competitors that actually live in these networks, or leave it live in these open source communities. And how do you make sure that there's also an ability to drive that competitive stakeholdership of the solutions and the things that you offer so open source. The last 20 years as I mentioned the Linux Foundation has been doing this, but open source in general is a place for these types of platforms and solutions to build here at the hyper ledger foundation. Our communities 100% open meaning that is never paid of play you can participate in any of the communities, any of the project communities, the special interest groups, the meetups everything like you're contributing to today and participating today is open and that's really important for us. And we're very interested in the developers we are developer ecosystem that can contribute and participate and contribution could be anything from being a maintainer for example and one of our projects to being a contributor in one of our special interest groups like our supply chain special interest group and others as well so there's a lot of ways that you can participate and you can contribute as well. I mentioned blockchain we've heard this over and over again is really encompasses a lot of different resources and a lot of different ways to do it, and a lot of industries really focused on blockchain services. I mentioned this already, you know what makes unique we are part of the foundation the Linux Foundation and it's really creating a neutral and collaborative way for all those that want to participate and to deliver and to use obviously the code that the foundation hosts. Today, we are hundreds of different members of these are community members are sponsors that help support the foundation, but over 40,000 contributors 1.27 million contributions plus that was last year's number. In the last five years, and really we continue to grow our ecosystem of companies that are contributing code and solutions into the ecosystem as well. And our community continues to grow we have multiple projects. We, the hyper ledger foundation is an umbrella of multiple projects that we have and you can see some of them here. Over the years, we've really developed our, our project our projects have come in and been contributed to the foundation, based on what was happening and continues to happen in the ecosystem, you know, starting in 2015 that's when the foundation was formed. And in 2016, the, the main DLT projects I came in where fabric saw tooth and they're all ha, and fabric obviously continues to be one of the most adopted distributed permission distributed ledger platforms. In the last year, block data did a presentation report where they highlighted that fabric is still the preferred solution for 38% of the top 100 companies as you see here. So continuously, our solutions are adopted across multiple use cases as supply global supply chains. We'll talk a bit about circular, other supply chains like Simba, which is tracking airplane parts for the government of the United States, and other use cases, and supply chain is obviously from a blockchain perspective, really the blockchain models that greater transparency and traceability to reduce risk of fraud and counter flicking, and we'll get some more of that information when circular comes up. If you think about trade finance we've had a lot of lessons learns a lot of things that we've heard from the ecosystem we also were discussing about trade finance. And there are new, new platforms like GSBN, which is trade finance 2.0 how do we take those learnings from previous examples, and then incorporate them into new systems. So you have over 150 use cases that you can explore. Many of them are supply chain and trade finance use cases in our air table and I'll put the link to the presentation in a second into the chat that you can click on and go explore as well. So as, as we continue to evolve by 2017, we did start thinking about digital identity, John Lorenzo mentioned it being one of my key interests, and really building decentralized ecosystems and digital identity is serving as a fundamental part of our projects like in the areas and a non creds that are really driving a lot of digital identity, not just for people but for entities for example with the energy minds program that's coming out of the British Columbia government, and others as well worldwide, really with digital identity in the decentralized ecosystem space. 2018 more tools more libraries things that make the enablement of blockchain in the enterprises really really valuable. And there's also this move since early 2019 in the hyper ledger foundation around the fact that it is not just about permission that there is a spectrum of block chains there's not at one size fits all. And we're seeing a lot of great use cases, both in the permission and in the permissionless space using blockchain, as well as hybrid use cases. And there's a lot of great work that our community is working on. And this is all about how the markets are maturing and the use cases that people are enabling. For example, is lat chain based out in Latin America and funded by the inter American Development Bank, where they're using hyper ledger basu which is our EVM framework to create generally a general purpose infrastructure for blockchain ecosystem and there, there are there are sustainability use cases that are being built on lat chain, as a public permissioned blockchain so lots of great use cases. FC out of Europe the European blockchain system in services, also using hyper ledger basu and creating a public permission network for these use cases to be deployed. In the chat someone posted about our supply chain trade finance. We are a code project we have these code projects but we always have special interest groups that are focused for the SMEs for the subject matter experts to come in and talk about the work that they done to share best practices to come and do guest speakers come and do presentations around the work that they are doing to get feedback from the developer community and the subject matter experts so in 2019 we launched our supply chain, special interest group and since then it's been merged in and they have by really calls and it is really a great way to participate in the community and have your voice heard and share those lessons learned that many of you I know have done as well and they're currently working also on a supply chain ebook so please do keep an eye out for that. 2020 was an interesting view, when we start thinking about networks and and how specially in things like global trade networks supply chain networks financial markets, it is networks of networks, and many enterprises need to be in multiple blockchain networks in order to have their business be able to run. So we started thinking the community started thinking about interoperability and today hyper ledger cacti is as a project that's focused on inter interoperability between blockchains and really addressing the blockchain DLT fragmentation, making sure that businesses can participate in multiple networks and assets can also be traded between these networks without a lot of reinventing the wheel as well. In 2020, we had our climate action and accounting, special interest group launched, and that is another great place to really talk about sustainability and the practices that we see in the marketplace as well so once again I will make this deck available in one second. So as you can see, the history of hyper ledger really really covers the way that the marketplace has been going in 2021 we launched projects like Firefly and bevel that are really about making sure that there's tools to very easily deploy and build networks and consortiums, and other use cases that those might have. So this is an invitation for all of you to join, join the hyper ledger community. You can join a community called you can join one of our projects and labs there's a lot of great works, but the core is open source and open communities is really truly how we're going to build better. So we're going to learn lessons learned from the things that don't work the failures, and really find new opportunities to collaborate. And, you know, going back to Martin's point around community and governance, these things are very important. And I truly believe that the way that open source not just at the hyper ledger foundation but many open source communities work is really has some key learnings that we can apply to traditional businesses, specifically when we're talking about use cases around sustainability and supply chain as well. But without our member communities without the companies and the developers that support the ecosystem. We cannot do all the great work that we've been doing since 2015. So it is with great pleasure that I also want to introduce a circular who since 2018 has been a member of the hyper ledger foundation and really shared a lot of the work and from a technical perspective governance and perspective. And I'm really looking forward to Doug's presentation as well. Thank you, Daniela. Great. Thanks, Daniela for the presentation again. I think also this time, unfortunately, we don't have much time for questions right now, but again, just, I'm going to save some some time for for the Q&A for the final Q&A. So I'm just briefly introducing Doug. So, well, first, the first thing that I would say is the full name. So that was Johnson Penskin and his founder and CEO of Circular, which is a platform using blockchain to improve the traceability of complex industrial supply chains and he's going to tell us a bit more about it in a moment. He has 25 years of international experience and quite diverse background, right? So he has held leadership position in large corporates such as Berkeley's Bank and BT, but he has also spent his early career in the military and management consulting firms as well. So that's it on my side. I'll hand it over to you. Thanks. Thank you very much. And thank you, Daniela, for the plug. Much appreciated. And I'm actually going to pick up on some of the themes that both Marin and Daniela spoke about and try and bring them to life with a practical case study. So Circular founded in 2017. The particular use case that we started the business on was trying to track the provenance of Cobalt in electric vehicle battery supply chains. Because Cobalt, as some of you, I'm sure will know, is essential to lithium ion batteries, which of course, you know, core to the energy transition. But 65% of the world's Cobalt is mined in the Democratic Republic of Congo with all sorts of concerns around human rights abuses, child labour, etc, etc. And we were looking for a specific use case where there was a real asymmetry of participants. At one end of the supply chain, you have car manufacturers. At the other end of the supply chain, you have artisanal miners. And in between you have up to seven steps of refining and processing of materials and the manufacturing of sub components that become eventually things like electric vehicle batteries in cars. So you're globally distributed. No trust at all between participants and established problem that people are spending money on. Now we've evolved since then to a point where, and some of you I know in Europe, you'll have heard perhaps of the recent adoption of the European battery regulations, which will require all batteries above a certain size within the next few years to have what's called a battery passport. And more generally, the European Union has been driving for digital product passports for a whole variety of different types of products, predominantly to drive both sustainability, greater recycling, and also to protect consumers interests. Now, you know, that theme of a digital product passport is coming to other parts of the world as well. China has just adopted a roadmap towards effectively battery passports as well. The US has passed last year the Inflation Reduction Act, which provides tax credits for a combination of responsible sourcing from free trade nations and made in America, which fundamentally is also a form of battery passport, essentially where stuff come from where did it end up. And so there are themes that I'm going to unpack here that are not just unique to the automotive industry, although that's the example I'm going to talk about a bit more. So just to give you an idea, you know, we are we are working with a whole host of brands. This is a very small selection. Now, you'll see a number of car manufacturers here. You'll see, you might recognize some of the upstream mimers. BHP is the largest mining company in the world. SQM is one of the largest lithium producers in the world and a whole variety of others. You'll notice oil majors here too. The reason why I've put the logo of one of the German government departments here is that we have a technology workstream lead for the German government battery pass project, which is unique because it is the first time a government anywhere in the world has tried to get a group of folks together in industry to equip themselves and develop what will be global best practice for how to try and bring to life a digital product passport. Now, I'm going to unpack this as we go and explain the role of blockchain. I'm going to pick on some of the themes that that were brought up by Marin in terms of why a blockchain is a useful ingredient in the overall platform architecture. The question around governance and permission or non permission public or private questions of interoperability. So I'm going to hopefully try and draw out these themes as we go and I'm conscious of time so I'm going to try and keep this so we actually have a bit of time for questions at the end. Now the provenance of raw materials means that you have to be able to build a digital thread through a complex supply chain and no supplied or almost no supply chain is a series of one to one to one relationships between each of the participants. If you take something like the EV battery supply chain where there are 10 principal ingredients, they all start as rock and they all end up as a car. You, you have big miners and small miners you have processes and refiners you have precursor manufacturers who make who you know and then cathode manufacturers and battery cell manufacturers etc etc through a supply chain. And it's a whole series of many to many relationships where those commercial relationships are built on a combination of today price and availability of material. And that means that even for the same type of battery going to exactly the same model of vehicle with the same car manufacturer, you could have multiple participants contributing through that supply chain and different materials over time. What you're essentially trying to do is create a digital twin for physical commodity source and build these digital threads that follow that flow of materials through these complex web of interactions the amount of time between mine and car is probably nine months. What you need to be able to do is notarize and timestamp transactions so that you can be confident that history is not being rewritten if it subsequently proves to be inconvenient. So if you haven't responsibly sourced your cobalt or you know your your lithium comes with environmental concerns, then you can't rewrite history. And that's the value of the blockchain in the context of this platform. The distributed ledger is not a particularly efficient way to store very very large amounts of data and process it efficiently. What it is very good at is that notarization and time stamping piece. So we use a combination of Oracle database and graph database for the storage of information and the creation of business logic that describes if you like the chemistry at each of these steps. Because things like Oracle Apex are better at allowing you to describe that complex business logic effectively coding the chemistry. And underneath it you have a distributed ledger and then using other tools for both a capture of information we have both APIs as well as bulk upload data mechanisms for large volumes of data. For example, in the consumer electronics industry the volumes of data are so big that that volume of structured data of an API even when collected on a daily basis is a little bit too much. There's a little variety of things in the platform architecture but this is a near in my view near perfect use case for a distributed ledger and we use hyper ledger fabric, which was obviously just talked about. And we're also actively looking at some of the other hyper ledger projects for the evolution of digital identity as best practices emerge. Now, imagine now you have a digital thread that describes the provenance of material, you can attach other information to that digital thread. What I'm interested in is the identity and attributes of the physical material, and the identity and attributes of the actors along the supply chain that work on that material through the supply chain. And when I'm talking about the, the attributes of those actors I'm interested in for example in their scope one and two carbon emissions, because that's how you build a picture of inherited scope three emissions at the downstream and I'll explain why in a second. Water use is the next frontier of ESG human rights I've already talked about. And so all of those, all of those ESG environmental social and governance factors are all attached to physical locations or facilities or organizations. And so you can start to connect material to the actors involved with which means that when for example you're a car manufacturer in Germany, and you have to comply with the German supply chain law which means you're responsible for what you've inherited from the supply chain. And that means that you have some means of being able to see it. Now, without going too nerdy on batteries but this is relevant to us all if we care about the energy transition. Clearly you've got rock that become things that role, which is that horizontal line. And then of course, that battery exists in a vehicle for a period of time until it is either recycled, or we manufactured and we used or repurposed in an energy storage system, the circular economy, which of course is the circle on this diagram. It is impossible to create circular economy business models without having some way of knowing where an asset is what its state of health is and potentially who owns it and is financing it etc etc. And so this concept of distributed trust is as relevant to the circular economy as it is to the original supply chain that created in this case the electric vehicle battery. Now I talked about carbon. We the reason we're all shifting towards electric vehicles is because you know clearly internal combustion engines are very polluting when we when we burn diesel and petrol. The challenge though is that the shift to electric vehicles is not necessarily going to make the situation better. And that's not because of the tailpipe emissions from the use of the vehicle. It's because of the enormous amount of energy it takes to turn rock into battery grade materials into batteries. And if that energy isn't renewable energy, then you're basically just swapping the pollution problem from the use of the car to the manufacturing of the car. The manufacturing of the electric vehicle battery accounts for half of all of the supply chains contribution to the manufacturing of vehicle supply chains contribution is 80% of the total carbon emissions of manufacturing electric vehicle. And you or I in Europe would probably have to drive our brand new electric vehicle for about 50,000 kilometers to have repaid the carbon cost of its manufacture. So this is a this is a core problem that industry is trying to solve, even as they're trying also to create digital product passports which will become a license to operate for car manufacturers in Europe. Now, what can you get from this collection of information about either the physical material or the actors involved. Well, you can obviously see what's forgive the screenshots a bit small but you can obviously see what's going on in your supply chain. I've talked about those digital threads the material traceability second from the left shows how those threads of material come together, eventually into a car. And I've talked about the attribution of, of carbon emissions, it could be water it could be all sorts of other environmental characteristics to that physical flow of materials so that you the downstream the auto manufacturer knows what it is that you inherited. And of course, when you aggregate that data up, you're able to start comparing across different manufacturers to be able to show you know which are acting more sustainably all the way through the supply chain. One of the things that was touched on was a problem with the MERSC trade lens solution was neutrality circular plays no role at all in any of these supply chains except for being the truth teller. We have no role at all, except to collect information from supply chain participants and presented like this at the downstream and also to help build digital product passports or battery passports for these materials. And the approach that we took from a governance perspective to this was different to some of the earlier generation of blockchain projects. For example, believed firmly in the idea of consortia. Now the problem with a consortium is it has a significant governments overhead is fairly slow to make decisions. You've got to achieve consensus. I don't mean that in a blockchain sense. I mean that in a human sense between multiple different organizations, all with different funding, etc, etc, and it's painful. What we've taken is one of, if you like a coalition. So our first major customers Volvo cars, Volvo cars worked with us on the traceability of Cobalt. The next major customer was Mercedes Benz that was interested in seeing if that chain of custody of materials, you could start to attach CO2 data to it. The relationship between Volvo and Mercedes Benz and there still isn't in our in our in our platform ecosystem, but they each benefit from the innovation that the others have brought to it. And that continues. What we've now started to build is a sizable data network we've got some 75 different organizations now providing battery traceability data ranging from, you know, mines in the Congo all the way through to car manufacturers in North America. And it's clearly not open to everybody to see everything you only see what your permission to see, but the innovation driven by each creates network effects for each of the others. Those data network effects are very important to the long term success of an ecosystem so that, you know, each additional supplier in the midstream that joins the platform brings an incremental benefit to others that also use that particular participant within their supply chain. I've touched on a number of case studies but conscious of the time and the desire for some questions I because I've already illustrated this I'm actually going to stop here so that I can hand back to you. John friends so so that we can act Lorenzo so we can have a conversation. I can go into more detail if it's useful in the question and answer session. Yeah, thanks for for the presentation and being mindful of the time. So, I think we can open up the discussion. So, there are already some questions in the chat but perhaps if someone has already one question for that we can start from from there. Otherwise, again, you have already something in the chat. Forgive me, I didn't look at the chat questions. But if you want to pick on one or some then we can, and I can have a go. Sure. Well, if the audience is not yet already brave enough. Sorry, I can ask my questions. Sure. Thank you so much for a great presentation I really loved it. It's really interesting. I have just one question maybe Martin or the others can also give some ideas and reflect on that. And we have so many studies and discussion on how blockchain plays a significant role in proving trust between firms and the other customers specifically and other actors in supply chain. But as also Martin has mentioned that probably there are some kind of underlying futures with blockchain which kind of actually diminishing the trust towards the other actors in supply chain. What are those features that undermining this trust aspect and then when we talk we talk that there are trust issues is it just more concerning the complexity of the technology privacy concerns, connectivity or, you know, the regulatory uncertainty is can you be more specific on that that will be great thank you so much. Should I kick off. So, in supply chain fraud is as old as mine kind we've been adulterating flour with groundstone since we, you know, pretty much crawled out of caves and supply chain fraud still happens today. And so, you know, about three or four months ago traffic era one of the world's largest commodity traders announced that they had lost 600 million in a nickel transaction because what arrived at the other end of the supply chain was rock. And that's a pretty sophisticated organization. And there are many other examples of this. So, and of course fraud pays and that's just one example. The questions of trust in supply chains is nothing to do with technology is to do with a lack of transparency. And it's technology, particularly newer technologies like blockchain that help to try and address new technologies often address old problems. And I've just said that supply chain fraud is an old problem. New technologies can help bring trust where there wasn't any before. So if, you know, I am running a responsible artisanal mindset in the Congo. And that means that I'm paying my workers fairly and there's no kids on site and nobody's digging deep holes that collapse etc etc. Then I want to be able to get my material to market and have people be confident it actually came from where I claim that it has come from, which is separately audited to say that this is a responsible mindset, albeit that people are digging picks and shovels. And that means you need reliable provenance. So it is an opportunity to use a technology to address a specific need relevant to a question of trust. Did this really come from where you're saying it came from. And that is just one little example. Now, clearly when you're building a platform like ours, you need to build tools to identify anomalies where things are happening that are not as expected where claims are made which are not real. For example, we use machine vision to look at activity at mine sites in certain parts of the world and compare that with claim production. In some cases where those licensed mine sites are in a, you know, what's seen as a safe jurisdiction bordering somewhere that is not seen as a safe jurisdiction and materials being smuggled across the border. And so if there's nobody working in a mine site but it's producing a large amount of material, I wonder why. So it's not just about blockchain, but when I have that data about an anomaly, it can't be changed. And that's also helps build trust because you've got that naturalization. I'm going to stop and get others speaking. Sharon, do you want to add? Yeah, maybe just quickly. I think Doug covered pretty much what I had in mind. Maybe just conceptually to try to explain to you how I see this. So the problem is converted from organizational to technical level. Right. And I think this is the power of blockchain. So if we have a problem, which is in relation to trust or security, so we have inter-organizational problems, right? And then that problem with the blockchain are converted to technical problem, technical space, technical level and resolve there. So I think that the bigger issue is just the difficulties of governing ecosystem. Being blockchain-based or not, I think this is the main issue overall. So the governance of ecosystem is difficult and blockchain is nothing different, right? In that sense, however, the blockchain is not unhelping there. It is definitely helping with openness, with what Daniela said, the notion of neutrality and open source position. So I think we are just struggling with the governance of such complex platform ecosystems. And I think both academics and practitioners are trying to figure out how to do it in the B2B context because it's a lot at stake. And in B2C context, we've seen a lot of easy fixes for the governance, how governance could be easily resolved in B2B is much more complicated. So that's my reply. We're a private permission system, which means that there's a minimum threshold of trust necessary to be allowed to participate and provide data. And there's a question about, isn't all blockchain trustless? Well, not necessarily is the short answer to that. And we could have a whole hours conversation just on that question. It then talks about is circular the custodian or maintainer of the blockchain network and does the ecosystem of partners host their own fabric boats? Some do, many don't. So many, you know, participants just say, I'm happy to participate. I'm happy to understand that this is something that others upstream and downstream of me also participate in and trust. We have, you know, private channels which is how data is shared between, you know, existing commercial relationship participants in a supply chain. But, and there are some, there are a few customers, some of the larger organizations that do host their own node. And they then receive a subset of that where they receive all the data that is relevant to them, but not, not, not what they're not permission to see which is to other manufacturers, for example. Again, that's something we could spend a lot more time on. And I think it's, I think it's a critical point, you know, Doug Marin, about the understanding that there are strict access policies and requirements to these systems in regards to who sees which data. And more and more, there's a lot of work being happening in the blockchain ecosystem around more complex, you know, data collaboration processes and exchanges. What do you think about things that are happening when with confidential computing or ZK, you know, like there's a lot of work, academic work and implementation work to just really understand additional ways to share data in these types of networks but ultimately as Doug said, these platforms are built on permissioned blockchain frameworks that have very strict access policies for who could see which data and the results of the data as well. And that's built in, you know, core into these systems, that's what they were built for. Actually, myself, I already have a few questions, but again, if someone from the audience has something to add to ask, I don't think so far have been other questions left unanswered. If so, I'll speak up. A question on chat about, you know, does the fate of trade lens for the future of blockchain and supply chains. Trade lens was founded by Musk and to succeed in becoming a global platform. It needed its competitors to join too. And, and there was nervousness about providing data to a platform that was ultimately controlled and governed by, you know, an actor who is might be one of your competitors, which is why the point was made by by earlier about neutrality and why I made the point when I was talking about the fact that we play no role whatever in the supply chains that we contribute to. Marion, I'm sure you know a lot about this. No, no, that's it. That's it. Yeah. Yeah, 100%. And I don't think blockchain of itself played any part in that at all. No, I mean, you could you could see that the number of startups, the blockchain based startup like cargo X, like many Israeli startup as startups as well they're doing amazing things with blockchain in the context of supply chain. So the definitely the interest and application of blockchain supply chain global supply chain is there. It's just the platform sponsor governance in this particular case was was a good lesson learned for us going forward, how to approach such platform. I mean, a very large technology company like IBM needs someone who's going to pay the bills. And so I understand why they would have gone to a large corporate to do it. Clearly, if you're a startup, you're you're funding yourself until you can attract venture capital investment. And you need that venture capital investments until you can start to generate revenue and obviously become profitable. It's a different commercial model which frees you from needing a large commercial sponsor. We all just have to keep in mind that this is still very early on, right, where we're seeing, you know, amazing successes like the likes of circular and others, you know, the use of technologies in these systems and these, you know, global systems and infrastructure and partnerships is new. Right. So, you know, there are going to be lots of different ways that, whether it's trade lens or we trade, you know, and others, the approaches. Many are early on right and we keep talking about the lessons learned, but even the technology there's going to be changes implementations. So when we talk to, you know, both, you know, consortiums or companies are building platforms is really also understanding the flexibility and how you deploy these things and how do you also architect them to a point that they can mature as the technology and as your needs mature and things like interoperability that I mentioned before right these networks of networks can, you know, There's not going to be one DLT to, you know, to rule them all you have to build on this DLT you have to build on this platform. So I think that's an important aspect of it is if we think about this, we all, you know, blockchain the blockchain industry during the blockchain industry it feels like one week feels like three years sometimes it sure does because there's so much going on, but we just got to keep in mind there's, you know, relatively new tech that is being applied for systems that some have been in place for, you know, 3040 years running, you know, billions dollars of revenue through the global supply chain. There's a question just come up on chat, you know, curious to know thoughts on governmental agencies such as the UN to act as trust anchors. Certainly the space in which we operate the role of regulators, policymakers, governments has been to try and create policy objectives. So the Green Deal in Europe has been the umbrella that things like battery regulations has stood under which has required a degree of transparency and a common set of standards to start to be applied. And, and that has allowed room for innovation about how to prove that you're complying with these sorts of things in, in this case, global supply chains, where you've got enormous organizations and, you know, individual artisanal minors to take to the extreme. And so, you know, the, and I think for the certain supply chain space, I don't see yet a role for, you know, the United Nations Agency of supply chain or whatever to somehow deal with this because I suspect that by the time policymakers put in place the framework of regulations and harmonization of standards across between China and Japan and Europe and etc etc that that actually there will be solutions already of scale that have been adopted and the herd has moved towards solutions that do what they need to do to to to to comply and demonstrate what they're doing. So maybe just another comment, I don't know if I'm replying to the question. It's a very similar thing like with the AI that we could observe these days. So if we have a technology domain and application domain, right. So these two domains need to interact, we need to bridge like very deep understanding of the problem we want to solve like cobalt like like a shipping industry, like some other. So that's application domain and then the technology is another domain that that needs to kind of interact with the application domain. I think that the application domain is much more complicated to to impact and the technologies is moving very fast at the same time. So I think bridging these two domains is what is necessary for the for the success of application. Yeah, so I see another comment by Martin. Yeah, I don't know Martin if, yeah, okay. I could convince you that the technology was there. I could, I could, I could, I could, yeah, definitely convince. Yeah, have a convincing arguments that technology was there. It was not only IBM marketing. Yeah, it was not for sure. Yeah, I think there's nothing wrong with the technology application of trade lens either. We've obviously looked at it. And, and, you know, I was good. Any other question I think. Yeah, please go ahead. Yeah. Hi, I'm I'm super from Innerflexion, based in the San Jose, California. So I have a question which is, you have this AI tools at the application level. We use the BBC that the generative AI and so many tools have been are being used. The output of those applications in terms of decisions are stored in the blockchain, which creates trust but AI applications cannot I don't know whether to trust the AI applications fully or not. It's an ongoing debate. So the output of these applications are stored in the blockchain. So how do you marry the trust that blockchain creates with the output of the AI and generative AI applications. Every technology platform has the same challenge of rubbish in rubbish out. So you need to make sure before you put I mean, it's all very well to have records that can't change when they're mutable that's fantastic, but you have to be confident with the input data, whether it's generated by AI or comes from supply chain participants or anybody else. And so I think I don't think AI helps with that. I mean, we actually use machine learning sources, you know, the underlying technology behind AI to identify normal isn't to learn patterns within you know what's going on within supply chains that helps us look for additional information on these places where people are trying to break rules, but that's something you can train and you can learn. I think the fundamental is, you know, good data needs to go into distributed ledger and then you can trust that the good data was believable. But along those lines, is it possible to, is it a good idea to store the context of the applications decision making also in the blockchain so that if you trace it back, you could you could point to someone or the application that makes the decision to take responsibility. I'm not qualified to answer that. I'm sorry, I didn't know. So the applications make decisions based on some model, some context, etc. But the output of that application is stored in the blockchain. Is it also possible to store the context of how the decision is made by the application. So that you can trace back the responsibility that okay, this application made a good decision, this application made a bad decision. You don't need to store the underlying data, you just need to hash it to a blockchain, but yes, you could do that. As the record. Okay. All right. Great. Thank you. I think I think you answered my question. It's basically garbage and garbage out. So the responsibility, the application to to provide or give responsibility. If you want to know the provenance of something that came out of generative AI, then what you've described could be worthwhile. But, but, you know, whether that makes it more trust whether you're not depends on the context. Okay, cool. Thank you. Yeah. If I also ask a question, who pays for data storage in the blockchain. So when when you have a huge project for several years, lots of data points, who covers this costs. Thank you. I can only speak for what we're doing, which is that the almost all the data is stored in traditional databases cost of that storage is relatively modest, the GPO, the GPU load is also modest, which means it's not expensive because what we're doing is we're hashing blobs of data to the blockchain and we use hyper ledger fabric so we're not paying you gas or some other crypto for transaction volumes on the distributed ledger. And when you're serving customers paying customers like auto manufacturers and sell manufacturers and miners and all the rest of it, and they're paying a subscription to access a platform like ours. That covers obviously the cost of all of the things that are necessary to both build and maintain and operate a platform. Right, thank you. And I think there are a couple of questions or perhaps one question and not a comment. So, yeah, how do you handle integration into ERP and IOT? Are there plugins for SOP or other systems? Yeah, sorry, forgive me, I'm doing all the talking but I please jump in, Marian, Daniela, all the data that we receive in the platform is coming directly from manufacturing execution systems or ERP platforms. Going over API, most of it, I gave the example of bulk data upload in the consumer electronics industry because the volumes of data are much higher. But the whole point is that we've exposed APIs both in and out as the principle means moving structured data between platforms in an agreed format and that's agreed as part of the implementation process. And I think he was talking about implementation when he was speaking as part of the implementation process of onboarding and implementing the connection into the platform by individual supply chain participants. Anyone wants to add something? So, follow-up question on that. So the individual participants choose what data they want to put on the blockchain or is there a kind of a set up standard data formats that you suggest? In the context of critical minerals, the data that is necessary is well understood, you know, because, you know, ultimately it's all aggregated up into what will eventually be battery passports, the requirements for which are being set by regulators. And so the contribution of data from participants in the supply chain is something that isn't negotiable. And if suppliers, we find this now, some midstream participants don't want to play, but then they find themselves excluded from the supply chains that would eventually find materials coming into, for example, Europe. The similar thing will apply in the US on the Inflation Reduction Act, where, for example, you know, you can't have Russian nickel coming in because of sanctions. So, you know, if you don't want to play or you're in the wrong place or you're not prepared to declare where you're getting something from, you'll find yourself excluded from the supply chain. Now that's not universal clearly, but in the context that I've described, it's becoming a fact of life. So if I have a core set of data that the system is expecting and I have supplementary information, are you allowing the participants to put that in an off chain? Yes. Yeah, so audit reports, for example, certifications, all sorts of things can be added to the core information about actors or materials. And that's customizable for the participants? Yes, it is. If I may ask, how many participants are on the network today? Today, about 250 different facilities in the EV battery supply chain. They don't all belong to individual entities. Some entities, you know, very large battery manufacturers like CATL have clearly got a lot of facilities in lots of places. Do you have any functionality for the battery warranty angle or it's just primarily. Yeah, well, and there's an overlap between warranty management and the maintenance of a battery passport. And some car manufacturers are starting to look at the idea of a digital private passport for the car as a whole, particularly for safety critical components. So you can address questions like which, you know, into which vehicles did this particular batch of faulty widgets go and therefore which, you know, 500 cars do I remove from the market in order to deal with safety recall rather than calling in 20,000 cars? So if I'm on a technical level, I don't know how Sir Clarice is implementing this, but there are events. So trade lens was working with events. So the more events you are, you know, you have, you could think about better, you know, utilizing these events in a better way. So this is the data point. We don't call them events, but exactly the same principle. Yeah. And perhaps we have time for one last question. So how do you see the role of the digital container shipping association and the standards they publish in the adoption of blockchain and supply chain management? Who would like to take it? I could. Yeah, I could take it major. I've been part of that association. They're doing an amazing job. They're pushing actually the, you know, cut the ground zero for everybody. So I think that they're putting a lot of work into standardizing the interfaces. And if I go back to the notion of a technology domain and application domain. So the technology domain, we have a hyper ledger, we have open standards. So this is kind of already resolved standardization is there, but on the application domain, you know, you have so many different standards and file formats in the shipping industry that that is just, you know, not allowing progress. So that's their role to standardize the interfaces. And so we could leverage the technology in the best possible way. And I think it's progressing quite well. I think that they achieved the critical mass and I think now all major ocean carriers are aligned with the standards that they're developing. Yeah. Yeah, and I'll just add to that. Obviously, open source code always has to, you know, the standards and implementations and a lot of these systems, it is the data, the data modeling that needs to be done and the specifications across the industry and the standards and countries, you know, very importantly as well, especially in supply chain so groups like the CSA and others are really needed in order for the code to be implemented and usable. Great. I think that was enough as an answer, hope so at least. And, well, with that I would say that it's, we are done. So thanks, Marine, Daniela and Doug and all the audience for the lively discussion I would say I hope that we were able to offer you overview both theoretical and practical on how blockchain can be implemented, at least in the supply chain and what are the challenges and what are the possible solutions in the implementation. So that's it. Thanks again, and hope you have a nice rest of the day. Thank you, John. Thank you everyone.