 Educational access continues to be a major talking point, particularly in the transition of a new presidential administration in a recent edition of the Washington Post, two HBCU presidents underscored the need for a second chance Pell, a program that gives financial aid to incarcerated individuals across the country access to higher education, degree earning opportunities and workforce development. The authors of that editorial joined me today. Dear brothers and friends of the show, Claflin University President, Dr. Duane Wormack and Langston University President, Dr. Kent Smith. Brothers, I appreciate you coming on to talk about this because as many conversations as we have about educational access, it is easy to forget about the significant number of brothers and sisters in that prison pipeline who are looking to come out and make a better way for themselves. So I appreciate the time today, man. Thank you. Thank you for having us. This is an initiative that started in 2017 under the Obama administration. Currently there are five historically black institutions with which Langston and Claflin are part of that cohort. Dr. Smith, I will start with you. We clearly know the benefits of working to make sure that educational access expands to this particular group, but are there also enrollment revenue opportunities for the schools? And could you kind of speak to how such a program creates the expansion for recruitment or even positioning or a good positioning of certain degree programs within such a cohort and how that makes a difference for Langston? Sure. Well, to begin with, for us, it was more about being an HBCU and reaching out to a demographic that is often forgotten. Meaning when you look at the number of people who are incarcerated, certainly African-Americans, blacks are disproportionately incarcerated nationally. And that applies almost in every state in the US, if not all. And so for us, it wasn't necessarily about just an increase in enrollment, but more about serving a population that is often forgotten, particularly African-Americans. So, but the truth of the matter is it can have a boost in enrollment. We started in 2017, the first initiative when we started in one particular prison segment, we started with approximately 10 students. In three years, our program has grown to a little over 90 students in three different facilities today. And I'm interested, no, Dr. Wormack, I will throw you the same question. And it's true, it's not so much an issue to say, hey man, let's get our enrollment up. But it is to say, let's provide opportunities for people who really need it. As a private institution, is there a line where you say this could be a strategic thing, particularly as some of the elements of this program or for certain offenders with nonviolent crimes, certain restrictions on their incarceration and when they will be released? Is it something that you see that could be a strategy over the long term? Yeah, again, I think as Dr. Smith clearly articulated, it could be a strategy, but that's not the purpose. As an HBCU, we have a civic and a more responsibility to support our African-Americans, right? And no matter if and often the lease of those. And so when you think about the critical mass of folks that are incarcerated today or African-American, and if you look at that population and extrapolate that data, and if we don't give them an opportunity, Second Chance Pail is not new, right? In pre-1994, Pail Grant was offered to every prisoner. But then in 1994, under President Clinton's administration, the Pail Grant was taken out. And so what I'm trying to do is bring back the Pail Grant to provide that educational opportunity, because not just the incarceration rate, you gotta look at recidivism. And so how many times these folks are repeating offenders without having a quality? We know access and opportunity and education is equalized in this country. And so why not give them that to limit the recidivism and we can stop using tax dollars to continue to incarcerate them, but to educate them? It's an excellent point about how to appropriately and most effectively use the public trust to support the public itself. As I'm glad you brought that point up. And to that point, as we think about the opportunities and what they take to appropriately grant educational access. And this is for both of you guys. What do you think it would take specifically for cohorts coming out of the incarcerated American pipeline to get them to be successful? We know that a lot of our students at HBCUs, they need just a little bit of nudge to realize their potential. Do you think that there will have to be certain investments made in technology, certain investments made in student support and mentoring or tutoring that will make sure that the handful of students that will be eligible to take advantage of it are indeed successful? And Dr. Smith, and maybe you've been in it, I think you've had about 90 students and maybe you can talk to some of those successes. I think you have some graduates coming up or something like that. And so, to begin with, what we've found is that it really depends on the warden at a given facility. For instance, we are just beginning the process of we have one warden that is now making a way to have the internet available to the students whereby faculty could talk with the prisoners, the inmates outside of the class. In most cases, we've not had wardens. In the other two cases, we've not had wardens who wanted to allow the internet, even just doing a class period. So it's been all face-to-face instruction and follow-up and feedback. So certainly when you look at technology, that's an important piece, we believe, but it does not make it impossible if you don't have the technology. But clearly, when you look at the inmates, it's not just about obtaining the education, it's also about having the connections for them so that when they are released or even pre-release, they have an opportunity to look at certain types of jobs and those kinds of things. Three years later, we are embarking upon our first graduate. In May of 2021, we will have our first set of graduates from the program and two of those have been released already. I'm happy to report they've continued on with us after being released. So they're still involved in completing their education. And I think Dr. Warmer brought up something really, really important. When people, as you notice in the Washington Post piece, there were some comments where people say, why would we use public dollars to do that? Well, to me, it's a question of where you want to put the public dollars. Do you want to re-spend and re-spend because the recidivism rate is so high? And I'll tell you a bias that I have. You know, in the neighborhood I grew up in, didn't grow up in the best of neighborhoods in Louisiana, the reality is I'm one of maybe three doing my time in my hood that went to college. So only because I had a mother who worked an extra job to send me to private schools. And it gave me an opportunity and a viewpoint of that education was important. And I'll tell you, there were many people in my hood who are a lot smarter than me that have given the right opportunity and having the right guidance. They would have gone to college. They would have finished and been done off the thing. So... Well... Yeah, I think we may be losing them, but... Dr. Womack, I think you can kind of speak to that as well because I think it's a powerful point to illustrate. You know, I think Dr. Smith hit on it really, really quickly. I think all three of us have come out of situations in cities, you in Detroit, and me outside of D.C. Where you can say, yes, I'm like, I'm literally a handful of folks that were able to make it out and use education as kind of that vault. Can you speak to that? Because I think that's a really critical point that underscores recidivism, but also underscores the value of HBCUs at large. Right, and I think part of that for me, and that's why I said this is not just an opportunity for educational, this is a labor love. And so as you mentioned, grown up in Detroit, father been incarcerated, brother's been incarcerated, I understand that system. And not that I was just that special, I just had an opportunity to get out. And so I think having that space and provide an educational opportunity for them to be able to better theirself when they come out. Our system is supposed to rehabilitate. And so the system is to rehabilitate and they're not given the opportunities. We clear that a college degree, that you have a potential to have higher earning potential with the college degree, but you're not given that opportunity then the probabilities are low. But also too with technology, with us coming in as new to this, we will kick our first pilot off in January. And part of ours is two of the programs we're looking at is 100% online. So we've been very fortunate to sit in South Carolina. The first three prisons that we're working with are committed to this opportunity and using this virtual and the spirit of, or the challenges of COVID-19. It's allowed us to really reimagine and the prisons reimagine how we deliver education. And so we're excited that, the prisons that we're gonna work with on the pilot will allow us to do some virtual piece. And so hopefully we can be a model for what that looks like of utilizing technology to deliver a top quality HBCU education as well. Dr. Smith, I know we lost you for a second. Just wanted you to finish up that point because it was a critical one. Oklahoma ain't cheating right on that internet. No, no, no. Hope is they don't have a like versus with Teddy Baralee and baby face. That's my guy, I can't see my man. But to that point, and I'll, once again, you got it, you there? Yeah, no, he's trying, but we'll get him back. Okay, I just think it's, okay, I just, for me, it's imperative, if we're in a growing up in situations, circumstances, we're fortunate to be out, but there's a lot of folks that grew up in our communities and our neighborhoods who were just as smart, who just didn't have that opportunity. And so you talk about that prison pipeline, it's imperative we create the education pipeline. And so how do we break some of that? So that's why our program is called the prison education and breaking some of those disparities that are there to get those folks educated and then gainfully employed. But just the education is not enough. You got to provide the full wrap-around services for them. How do we have the mental health component that comes behind it, the housing piece. So we're working with a variety of different entities. And so there's a group out of St. Louis called Concordes Academy that we're gonna partner with very actively, which they have limited their recidivism rate cut it by 44%, no one else in the country has done that because they have 12 points of entry where they have the mental health, they have the housing, they have the food, they have the job placement, have all of those services that's wrapped around. So we're the education component for us. And so we can partner with other entities to help those folks be successful. And then the last thing I would ask, what would you say to folks who would suggest that the best approach for incarcerated individuals is a trade or technical training and not so much the traditional liberal arts training. You know, I just, it's a theory that a lot of folks are buying into, especially when you think about the commitment that a lot of states and cities are making to community college access in particular. How do you kind of respond to that question about the kinds of training that incarcerated individuals should get? Right, I mean, that's very similar to anyone that's going to college, right? You know, I think you find what your niche is. And if your niche is a four year institution with a bachelor's degree that will help you progress, that's great. If it's going into a trade or a two year institution, that's your journey as well. I can speak to both. I went to a community college first, received my social degree and transferred to a four year school. So I understand the importance of both. I don't think it has to be either or it can be a both and. So how do you create stackable credentials? And so maybe they do something at a trade or a two year school and have those credentials be able to transfer. We just want to provide an educational opportunity. But I really struggled with those conversations here and I struggled with them to my core because often the folks that have those conversations when they say four year schools are not for everyone or maybe you need to trade, but if you go to their communities, that conversation is not being had because four year schools are good enough for them, but sometimes it's just not good enough for other folks. I fundamentally believe everybody has the ability to learn and finding out where that niche is. And that's what makes our HBCU so special. We meet students where they are, right? And so however they are, our faculty are engaged in pedagogy strategies and models to help them develop that academic and intellectual curiosity to move them to that space. So they don't have to limit just because of technical, that's in a technical school or two year school is bad. If that's their niche, that's fine, but we're not going to limit them just to say because they're in prison, that's what they have to do. No, if they have the wherewithal and the commitment and the passion, Dr. Smith is not here. He shared with me what was the most enlightened piece for him was how serious the folks were that were in prison, right? Because no point attended, they had nothing but time. And so they were focused on the academic experience. And it was a really eye-opener to the faculty for him because I've asked him this so we can eliminate some learning challenges as we're going through this process. But I said, those students was very serious, were committed and continue to stay focused on that. So I think it's spending that myth of folks who have to go to technical school or two years college. If the four year school is with their passion and commitment and they can deal with the rigor and the hard work, they deserve the opportunity. We're going to try to get Dr. Smith in here for the last word. Hopefully you can hear me now. I'm switching, I'm getting in here. I did hear what you said, DeWon, and I really agree. And again, not all inmates are born the same or created equal. And so to me, we're doing a huge disservice if we automatically assume that just because someone's in prison or they're incarcerated, that they don't have the smarts of the wherewithal to be able to produce or to help society. We found it to be quite the opposite. Some of these students or some of the sharpest students that our faculty have seen and have been very, very keenly and surprised, quite frankly, where some of our faculty initially were concerned about having to go into the prisons. I can tell you three years later, we have very little trouble finding faculty now to teach in the second chance program, because they find that the majority of the second chance pale students are very serious, very smart, and many of them want to better themselves, which most people have never been to prison. They don't understand what it's really like. And the final piece, just full disclosure, even though I grew up where I grew up with two parents at home, my parents, my mom in particular made a way for me to go to a certain type of school, but I have a brother who was locked up. And so I know firsthand that even if you come from a household with good guidance, the background and the surroundings really do matter. And in my same household, my brother had a very different path and he's doing well today, but he spent a year locked up. And so that doesn't make him any less intelligent than I am. And he's now producing and helping society, but people make judgments mostly because they don't know what it's really like. This is a powerful conversation, man. And I think you both lifted up the critical point. This is at its core, the HBCU mission. And so, brother, I am grateful for your time today. I'm grateful for the editorial. You laying that out in the Washington Post or a international audience and calling attention to the HBCU calling for this particular area of educational delivery. And we look forward to having you guys back on with a hotspot down in Oklahoma. We continue to follow up on these conversations. Thank you so much, brother. Thank you so much. What you do for bringing attention to HBCUs. That's indeed. Thank you for your advocacy, man. And a pretty happy Founders Day to both of you Alphas on this call, man. Thank you.