 Good day and welcome back to the Forty Autie podcast with your host, as usual, Mr. Thomas Henley. Today it's been a bit of a slow day for me. I'm currently been through a little bit of a low mental health period this past month or so. So I'm really trying at the moment to work on myself, try to get on my diet and my exercise right, getting in touch with the GP. It tends to be, if it's your first time tuning in, it tends to be with me that I have at least a few months during the year where I dip into severe in terms of depression. So it's been a bit rough but things are going well and I'm starting to see some positive changes in my mental state. So things are doing good. Today I've got a very interesting episode for you. We're going to be talking about autism and asexuality. And if you have been a regular listener of the podcast, you'll know that I did a episode with Yo Samdi Sam in my past season where we talked about demisexuality. But now we're going to bring it a little bit more out of focus, get a bit more of an understanding of what the A spectrum is and also about what it's like to live as an asexual. So I'm joined by my very lovely guest, PJ AU. PJ AU? How are you doing today? I'm doing well. How about you? Not too bad. Not too bad. Just getting into the flow of the week. It's about Tuesday today. So not yet to the middle of the week. So we've got a way to go. But we've done quite a few posts on Instagram, didn't we? Because I linked up with you. I don't know. I think about a few months ago when we were sort of chatting about, because I saw your modeling pictures and I was like, oh my god, autistic model and the asexual. In my head I was like, right, we could definitely do a podcast together on this. But we also did a few blogs, didn't we? Yeah, no. And you did a wonderful job at those infographics. And we make such a good team because I don't know another autistic asexual model. So it's really cool that we were able to get together and make those. Yeah, definitely. And I think one thing to clarify to everybody is that I'm not asexual in the sense of what you may be thinking. I'm part of a subset of asexuality, which is demisexual. I'm sure we'll be able to go into all the details on that very, very soon. Yeah, I should have said aspec is the time for that. So my apologies. No worries. No worries. So I guess what would be really great to talk to you about first is about your modeling. How did you get into modeling? And why do you think you gravitated towards it? Yeah, it's a good question that I actually get asked a lot. So I came prepared for this answer. Really, it was by total accident. I have always modeled throughout my life, doing small photo shoots for like family pictures and sometimes for like bigger things. But then after I graduated high school, I really wanted to be an actress. And I'd always wanted to be one, just to see what it was like. And I signed with a local agency. I somehow got hired to do a really cool Hollywood movie, which is one of the film industries in India. And I did that movie. And I really loved being a part of it. But the stressful thing was staying in front of a camera for like eight to 10 hours a day, saying the same lines over and over again. And for those that don't know me, I have a proxy of speech. And I also have selective mutism. So I guess the term they're going for now is involuntary mutism. But it was really hard for me to like speak in front of a large group, even though I already knew what I was going to say, and it was very stressful, it was very draining. And I imagine that it's not only you're not only just talking to a camera like I do with my YouTube videos, you have people around you and they're all like coordinated in a way to get a certain take. And so the pressure that you must feel like doing what are those things I can't can't imagine. Yeah, it was definitely super stressful. And I talked to my agent about it. I said, I don't know if I can do this after all. And then he kind of encouraged me to step into modeling, because it was a way to build your portfolio, but also keep up the resume that you currently had and say you were doing stuff still. So I entered a thing in the industry called TFP or it stands for time slash trade for print. So basically you're going out and working with local photographers and in exchange for you know, both of your times, you get maybe two to eight different images from the shootback. Sometimes they'll let the models choose. Sometimes they'll choose them themselves or sometimes it will be a collaborative effort. But sometimes makeup artists can be involved as well and they get to choose photos too. And it's really nice because I like most of the time I'm not disappointed. I love all the photos that I get back from the shoot, and I can post them on Instagram and I have a portfolio for potential casting agents to go to and see my work. But at the same time, it was much easier on my disabilities. Obviously, you don't have to talk for modeling, which was very nice. And the more that you do it, the more experience that you gain from it in general. So it really builds up your confidence and also for me personally is much easier on my disabilities. I've heard a lot about, I talked to a guy called Reggie in my first season. And he's he's an autistic actor. And he was telling me about trying to go for autistic characters in like a movie or a TV series or a show. And if you've seen him, he is like the spitting image of like Hollywood looks like attractiveness and like he's really, really bonny guy. If you can say that. And he cannot get any autistic roles at all because of the way he looks. Like they want someone who's short, they want someone who's white and male, want someone with glasses and it looks a bit nerdy, a bit of a skinnier frame. And I suppose like, so it's really depressing that isn't it? Because we're always talking about trying to get representation in movies and TV series, but they're intentionally using the stereotypical lens of what they think autism looks like to find people to play those roles. Yeah. And well, I think the good news is we're finally getting the attention that we deserve because I happen to audition for I don't know if you've heard of the show everything's going to be okay. But there's an autistic actress that Yeah, there's an autistic actress that plays an autistic character. And I also had the wonderful opportunity to also audition for that role. And even though I didn't get it, it still went to another autistic actress and I was very happy about that. And actually the same thing for asexuality too. I'm sure if if you're in the aspect community, you've heard of Bojack Horseman and there's an asexual character on the show. Yeah. Yeah. Todd. And later on in the season, spoiler alert, in the sixth season to be exact, he meets an asexual rabbit and they end up getting together. And they were also looking for an asexual actress for that character. And I was in the running along with echo Gillette. And it ended up going to echo Gillette. And but this time it was because I was too far away. And I was so close. But the fact that I got noticed by the Bojack Horseman as well. Yeah. Oh, it would have been crazy. But I do agree that echo Gillette portrayed her very well. And still a sexual representation. So that's what makes me happy the most is that we're we're slowly building it up. It is taking a lot of time. But we're getting there for sure. Yeah. That's really great to hear. Like, I've only really had negative things. So it's good to hear that there is some representation coming through. And just just thinking thinking of Bojack Horseman, he's like that show is has been such a such a massive interest of mine for a long time. Typically because the main character is like a massive existentialist and he goes for like different crises and stuff. So I relate to that a lot in the ways. There's a lot of ways that I don't relate to him. I could definitely say that. We're sure. Yeah. But no, I thought it's really great show isn't it's not it doesn't pull any punches. Definitely. Yeah. And they do a really great job of not just showing that there's an asexual character, especially a man because you don't see that often in media as well as mostly asexual women. So we had male representation. And you also saw that he was a romantic asexual. So they were talking about how some asexuals are still in relationships. Some asexuals are not. So I overall, I think it's one of the best representations we've had so far for sure. Hopefully get we get more. Yes, that would be nice. Preferably not in cartoon form as well. Yes, that is also very true. So, you know, as far as like the autism and asexuality, I mean, have you have you been gravitating towards jobs that allow you to to talk about it or to sort of represent it or do it as part of like an overarching movement? Is there anything that you've been involved in that's like specific to autism or asexuality? In terms of asexuality, not necessarily because, you know, I kind of speak about it on my own terms. If it comes up, then that's when I'll speak about it. And that's solely because like I'm not actively looking to advocate for the asexual community. It's just kind of something that ended up happening, which is still great. I love talking about it. It's just there's times where I can't talk about it. I'm mostly known as an autistic advocate, and I'm actually partnered with a couple local organizations and helping them out with not just representation, but helping other autistic adults find the services and accommodations that they need. So I think that's more of my platform is I tend to focus on autism. But if there's an opportunity where I can speak up about asexuality, and especially the intersections between being autistic or neurodivergent and being on the LGBT plus spectrum as well, then of course I'm going to take that opportunity. So this podcast is ticking the boxes then. Yep, exactly. I had to hop right on it. Yeah, that's really great that you're doing work in your local community as well, because I think now quite often when we're faced with this online world of social media and stuff, we can get a bit bogged down and, you know, like who's listening to the awareness and acceptance work that I'm doing rather than volunteering for places, you know, teaching, like going out there and doing some active work. I think it's really, really important, especially if we're wanting to change things like systemically, like in businesses and schools. And so I really admire that you do that kind of work as well. Thank you. I appreciate that. So I guess, you know, to sort of start us off talking about asexuality. I mean, what is it? And could you sort of explain to us what the ace spectrum is? Yeah, so for those of you that have not heard of asexuality, it's basically the lack or complete absence of sexual attraction. And it can get kind of confusing because, as Thomas mentioned, there are sub identities of asexuality, including demisexuality and graysexuality. But it's just like the autism spectrum. It is very diverse. It is very broad. And anyone can range in experiences from, you know, still being a sex positive ace. So they're still, you know, having intercourse of people and then you have people like myself and my husband who are sex repulsed. We don't want anything to do with it. So there's just a really wide variety of aces. And it's it's hard to put it in a general thing because, again, it's very diverse and everyone's going to have a different experience with it. But the main definition is the lack or absence of sexual attraction. Sure. I know we're going to talk about it a little bit further on, but there's also something key that you talked about was like the romantic elements of it as well. Like you've got memorizing, thinking you've got the the asexual part, which has to do with intimacy like that. And then the if you're aromantic, it means that you don't want a partner. You don't want a romantic relationship with somebody. Precisely. And well, basically, it means that there's no romantic attraction. There are queer, platonic relationships that are often talked about in the community that I'm not that familiar with because I am not aromantic. So I'm still kind of learning about that. There's some people that are aromantic but still want some sort of partnership or friendship. So those couples do exist as well, which I think is what the queer, platonic relationship is. Correct me if I'm wrong. But yes, many I think I want to say over half of aromantics are just completely fine being alone. But then you also have aromantics who might still be allosexual, which is just a fancy word for saying that they still experience sexual attraction. So like just like asexuality, aromanticism is a very broad spectrum and everyone's going to have a different experience with it as well. There was two terms that you mentioned, allosexual and graysexual. I'm not 100 percent on either of them. Would you be able to explain them a bit more? Of course. So graysexuality is a person who is between being allosexual and being asexual. So it's kind of like a gray area is really what it's named after. So they're not really sure where they lie on the aspect or the asexual spectrum, I should say. And then allosexual is just again, a fancy term for someone who still experiences sexual attraction so they can be heterosexual, homosexual, pansexual, just basically someone who is, I guess, quote, normal. But that's not the term that we go for because nothing is normal anymore. So that's kind of like the is it would it be like the opposite of asexual? If you are allosexual, then you want intimacy. Yes. Yeah, asexual. OK, you would be sexually straight, I guess. Yeah, yeah. OK, that's like I close out. I was a little bit unsure about the aloe bit. I was like, it's a weird term for sure. So I don't blame you. It's like it's like with autism, like we say like neurotypical or allistic instead of exactly. It's like allistic except in the sexual form. Sure, sure. Well, that's really interesting. Again, I guess the natural sort of question after that, which, you know, it's we're on an autism podcast. I mean, is there any any sort of link between autism and asexuality? I definitely think there's some correlation. I know for me personally, I do have a lot of sensory issues, especially surrounding intimacy. So I think that's why there are so many autistic people who identify as asexual. And I can't remember where I saw the statistic, but I think over 50 percent of autistic people are somewhere on the asexual spectrum, whether it be demisexual, grace, sexual, asexual. And then, of course, in general, you have more autistic people who identify as LGBT plus. And I think that number is well over 70 percent of autistic people are a different sexuality, a different gender. And there's there's definitely some correlation there as well. So it doesn't surprise me that there are a lot of autistic people who openly identify as asexual. In fact, I know a lot of autistic people who are asexual. I have many friends who are both autistic and asexual. It's really interesting. I know I know I really relate to the the whole thing about sort of the sensory aspects to it, because, you know, I I'm not I'm not fully asexual. So I I understand that there's I understand the issues that commonly come up like the the light touch and certain issues, perhaps around. I don't I don't know if I want to go into it fully. There's a lot of century rise to do with that, that whole thing. And I think as well, as well as the sensory stuff, there's also the the elements of indirect communication because very true. A lot of people they they don't tend to be very vocal about what they want and what they don't like. And I think that can be very, very difficult for us because you kind of have to. You have to try and read this situation and we're naturally not very good at doing that unless we've we've practised. And I think that can definitely be a really big issue. And there was this guy that was talking about who was interviewing me for for his book. Oh, very cool. It's just kind of around empathy and like Sophia Meir and stuff like that. And he was mentioning that, you know, there seems to be. Some kind of link between, like. More atypical sexual relationships and autism, like things around. You know, strict strict rules around. Being dominant and submissive and like having a list of what you can and can't do and what that kind of thing. So I think sometimes stuff like that can be really, really, really helpful. But obviously not divulging from the topic too much. I imagine that, you know, if. Autistic people, we tend to be very in the pretend to be quite independent thinkers, I would say. Like we follow what we think makes sense and not necessarily what most people think. So things, things like social norms kind of, especially for me, if I was speaking for my for myself, you know, social norms, they kind of. They didn't hold any relevance to me like a lot of them. They make sense, like things around eating and things around some things around socializing. But there's other stuff that really just doesn't make any sense. And, you know, aspects to that, like how you live your relationship, how you live your dating life. You know, why do you have to fit a mould that everybody is telling you to fill when it's not something that satisfies your needs and can sometimes even be quite harmful for you? Yeah, exactly. I think it's. I don't know, do you think there's any other aspects to being autistic that might kind of make us more inclined to to being. Being on the asexual spectrum. You know, it's a good question that, unfortunately, I don't think I have the answer to. It's just some things. It's like it's like why people try to figure out why someone's gay or why someone's a different orientation. And sometimes you can have your theories, but you don't actually know. And that's, I guess, it's just the way it is. I think that's that's a great response. Oh, good. I wasn't sure if I was making sense or not. No, it makes sense. Like, I don't you know, to be honest, I don't think people should need to to justify themselves later on. It's their their own private lives and they can know it doesn't affect anybody else if, you know, especially around asexuality. So, you know, I don't I don't think a lot of the hate and a lot of the negativity that's projected towards the asexual communities. You know, it doesn't make any sense to me. Like, what what what's what's the problem? What's happening? Like, yeah, why are you so angry that we're not in a sexual relationship? It's like my husband put it because, you know, we get hate all the time and someone, you know, and this happens a lot in the aspect. I keep saying that it's the asexual spectrum. A lot of people in the ace community. They get asked, well, how do you know you don't like sex if you've never tried it? And my husband came up with this response and he said, well, you don't need to leave a gallon of milk out in the sun for two weeks straight and then drink it to know that it's not going to taste good and that's going to be bad for you. So. I suppose another good example would be, well, how do you know that you're not gay or bisexual? And unless you you go out and. They suffer with another man or another. Yeah, why are we getting asked this? Like. Or perhaps going asexual and and just not having any of that. So how do you know that you don't like that? Yeah, well, and I think it's because a lot of people confuse it and they think that asexuality means that you don't like sex. But of course, that's not true at all. There's a lot of asexual people who love sex. It's just they don't experience the attraction that comes with it. So sometimes asexuals have sex with their partners just to, you know, satisfy them. And then you have people who actually do like it. It's just they don't experience the attraction to that person and that they just get straight to the act. And, you know, I mean, I don't know. I'm not that person, but that's from what I understand. I think there's there's a word for those and I remember. I went on to Hannah Witton's doing it to podcast and she was mentioning about sort of like profiles. And there's a there's a name for for having no like can't remember it. No. I'm going to have to start. I'm going to have to search it. I think I know what you're talking about, too. And it's frustrating me that I don't know it either. It's probably right off the top of my head. Yeah. Oh, it's just come up with stuff on demisexuality. I don't need that. Is it like sex adverse or something? No, it's it's like just just liking the actual physical pleasure and not actually having any emotional connection with it. There's some word for it, but I don't think it. Yeah, I know there's a lot more sub identities that we tend to only use in the community, of course, for sex repulsed asexual is the word I think is. Apothosexual and then you have people who. I can't remember. I can't remember the definition, but I know that another term is like a coy sexual. I don't know how to pronounce it, but that's another one. There's like a bunch of sub identities for the entire community. And we tend to only use them in the asexual community. Because if we use them outside of the community, it's going to confuse people even more. But there's like a term for everything in our community, which is great. Yeah, that's a good point. I mean, one of the one of the issues that. That I have particularly about the autistic community is that people I don't I still don't think people know a lot about autism. And I think, you know, we still do need a lot of acceptance and awareness work for people. And I find it, I mean, someone myself, sometimes I find it hard to to understand all the language and the sub subcategories. And like, I can't imagine how how much of a barrier to entry that could be for somebody like. You know, having to understand all of this different language to understand what someone's talking about. Which I think, you know, that's it's probably probably a good thing. So I imagine that awareness and acceptance work is is just just as hard, if not harder than autism stuff. I mean, gosh, I'm still learning new things about both communities every single day. There's like a term I've never heard of or another perspective that gets brought up. And I go, oh, yeah, that's interesting. I've never heard of that before. Yeah. Well, it's interesting, the evolving of language, isn't it? It's just it seems to be very heavily policed in the autistic community, which is which can be really hard for someone, even even if there are autistic people trying to to get into the community and do do some awareness and acceptance work. If they don't have a full idea of of exactly what language is OK and not OK, they will every single time they'll get bashed for it. They'll, you know, they'll I mean, it happens quite a lot. A lot of people, particularly one friend that I know, called Brian Bird, he runs the autism support community Instagram. He posts a lot of memes and stuff nowadays. He's a really great sort of speaker and he had that issue coming into the autistic community, you know, getting a lot of hate online for using terms like aspergers, high functioning functioning labels, stuff like that. And it really makes me sad sometimes, because it's like, you know, he's obviously coming on here for the same reasons that everybody else is is just not using the language. Yeah. I think that barrier barrier to entries is always a really, really tough hurdle to overcome when it comes to autism. Yeah, I definitely had that experience when I found the actually autistic community as well. And I wish people that's why I try to be like very gentle with my answers and kind of explain, oh, hey, well, the term that you're using is actually a term that we don't use anymore. I try to be very gentle about it. And most of the time it works. But then you have those people who are very like, no, this is I want it and that's fine because you have to leave it at that. I think I know who you're talking about. And so perhaps on one of the posts that we made could have been actually no, but that person too, you just have to be very gentle and patient because you really don't know if they're actually if they know about it or not. Like you have to go in assuming that they don't know that whatever term is bad or that they don't understand something. So if you just got to try and say, well, this is what it actually is and not just you're using the wrong term. No, stop. Yeah, you're automatically a bad person. We're going to push you to the side. Yeah, canceled you. You're removed. I understand that. The key is patience as I've learned. It's also it's also really hard with with online stuff anyway because text is not a flawless way of communicating. Well, it's it's it's it's pretty suboptimal at communicating emotions and how you're saying things. Exactly. Unless you use emojis. Yeah, that's a lot of people don't. And I think sometimes it can be hard specifically for me from from what I found to know how someone's what someone's saying. Are they saying it in an annoying, aggressive way? Or are they saying it just just plainly? Or are they saying it in a nice way? I have no idea. And I'm your stereotypical autistic where it's like jokes and sarcasm just go over my head and I I never catch it. And I have to apologize every time. And it's very awkward and very embarrassing. Even in real life with my husband, he's neurotypical. So I have and he knows this. He knows that sarcasm and jokes go over my head, but he doesn't anyway, just a mess with me. And I'm like, like that's the same online is just exactly online is not very helpful with determining that at all. And that's why my husband and I came up with the system when we were long distance to use certain emojis when we were being sarcastic. So like we use a blue diamond for like a joke and then like a triangle for like a rhetorical question or something. And it's just very nice. But it has stuff like like tone indicators and things like that. But they're not very well known about I didn't know about it. No, well, it's it's I think it's difficult. And I'm always trying to find ways to clarify exactly how I'm saying things. And most most of the time I'm saying stuff with a smiley face. And I'm just, you know, so I put a smiley face. So I put like a yeah, you're like. And I think that really helps with me communicating how I'm saying things. But not everybody does it back. And that's where the the issues come in. And I think nowadays I'm probably more comfortable having a phone conversation than than texting because it's like, you know, at least I can sort of somewhat understand how they're saying things. Yeah, if they're being aggressive, whether being annoyed or, you know. That used to be me, too. But unfortunately, like my tinnitus, especially with telecommunications has gotten really bad. And like this is fine because, you know, I'm able to read your lips and I'm able to see like the context of everything. But when it comes to like a regular phone call and I also have phone anxiety on top of that, it is super hard for me to do phone calls these days. So that's really frustrating. But if I were still able to do that, yes, that would be much better. But I've gotten pretty good at determining things over text. But like you said, it still can be very difficult. And I wish there were some sort of like alternative. Like I can't do a Zoom call with everybody. It's just it takes a lot of setup and takes a lot of time. So yeah, just kind of have to deal with it. I relate on the phone anxiety. So many times where I put off phone calls for like weeks and months and like really important ones as well. Yeah. I'm like, can I just email you or something? Is there like a I can't do a phone call right now? No, no. So, you know, one of the reasons, you know, I asked you to come on was obviously to talk about sort of your experience and your knowledge around asexuality. But I really want to know is what I really want to know is about your your experiences being asexual. And I think the last time we had a little pre chat, we talked about your marriage and the fact that you are you're married to a very sexual person. So I guess what I want to know is what was the the dating process like for you? Do you do you get a lot of people who really just not understanding the message? You know, and what what does your relationship look like now? Is that, you know, tell me about it? We are most common question by far is how did you even meet? Because like meeting an asexual person is already hard enough. And people ask me for dating advice all the time. And I say, well, I can't really tell you because it happened by total accident. And so Coldplay is one of my special interests. And then I made like a Tumblr account of them. And I started making these really, I thought, stupid memes. But it turns out a lot of people really liked them. And to the point where one of my fellow Coldplayers that I met through Tumblr was like, you know, you got to join Instagram because I'm like, because there's a community on there too. And I said, I'm not really sure about that. Like it's already hard enough managing the Tumblr account. So she's like, no, watch this. And she took one of my edits posted it to her account. And sure enough, it was like the most like picture on her account. I was like, OK, fine. So I started doing it on Instagram as well. And turns out my husband was one of my first followers. And I didn't know about it at all, though. He didn't make himself known to me until like one or two years later. But he found my Instagram account, found out I had a channel where I did Coldplay covers. And then he found out about my personal Instagram account, which I still have, of course, where all my modeling pictures are. He's like, oh, my gosh, I think I'm in love. And then two years later, he sent me like the longest paragraph I've ever gotten. And I don't remember what exactly it said, but it mentioned like how he really liked my account and what he really enjoyed what I did. And it brought so much happiness to him. And then from there, it kind of started a friendship because he also had a Coldplay account. And I kind of followed it for Coldplay content, obviously, because in my mind, I knew that he liked me. But I was like, he's just another fanboy. Like I'm not going to, you know, do anything about it. But then the more that I followed him, the more that I realized we had a lot in common and it kind of blossomed naturally from this friendship that we have for the next two years into him also finding out that he was ace because of one of the YouTube videos that I made about it. And I'm like, are you sure about that? Because you think that, you know, this would be like a catfish or like someone's lying to you. Yeah. And you must have a lot going for your head. Like, are they just saying this because they have this they think they've got a sliver of a chance of having a sexual relationship? Exactly. And so I thought like this guy is not serious. I don't really know. But then again, I thought, well, if you were catfishing for two years, that's dedication. I don't think anyone has that patience. Oh, my God, the longest game ever. Yeah. So he then ended up sending me like a recording because he used to do that. He would send me like an audio file of him like talking about his life and like his family. And he talked about how he came out to his parents. And so I thought, OK, yeah, I know he's actually being serious. And then we started dating because he was in Los Angeles. And then I'm here in Seattle, which is in Washington state, two states up from California. And he we started a long distance relationship. We hadn't even met each other in person. We didn't actually meet in person until seven months later when he came up here. And turns out we our communication was much better in person than it was through text. And that surprised both of us. And a month after we met, he was back down in California, got super depressed. He's like, I can't take this anymore. And so he dropped everything, his job, his family, and he moved here to make our relationship work. And the rest is history. Yeah. I mean, he I'm forever thankful for how much he sacrificed to make everything work because he is literally my soulmate. I don't know what I did to deserve him, but he is just the best thing. And our relationship is just natural. It came from a friendship and it's literally something out of a movie. And I don't know if you know who Brad Paisley is. He's a country singer here. And his story is very similar to where he saw his wife, who is an actress in like a movie. He went to a movie theater and saw the movie and fell in love with her. And now they're married and have two kids and they've been married for, I think, almost 20 years now. So our story is very similar to theirs. And we both enjoy Brad Paisley and his music, too. So it's like we have everything in common from asexuality to like down to the type of dog breed that we want for a future house. So it's it's just been an absolute blessing, for sure. Yeah. Well, I guess, like. I mean, are you OK with me asking questions about it? And you're very welcome. You're very welcome to just say no. I'm not sure about whether you've you've told your parents or anything, but, you know, what is it like to kind of introduce yourself to the family as an asexual couple? Or is it something that you kind of kept keep under the surface? Yeah, everyone in my family knows that I'm asexual. And even if they didn't, they know I have a public platform where I openly talk about it so they would have found out about it anyway. And we also make it pretty obvious. This is our bedroom, and that's the flag for those of you who don't know. So both of us are. Well, I'm obviously more openly about it than he is because, you know, this is my public platform. He doesn't have an Instagram anymore, unfortunately, and he also doesn't have any social medias. So he's pretty. He's a very, very private person, regardless. But his family does know that we're an asexual couple. And obviously, everyone has been nothing but supportive about it. It's just more so. I think we get more confusion about it than anything else. They're like, well, how does this relationship work? Since like you guys aren't, you know, but then I explain as well. Like there's so many laws in place around actual marriage that, you know, talk about sexual intimacy as being, you know, if you don't get, I think there was a law, isn't it? Where if you don't have sex with your partner within a certain time after getting married, then they can file for divorce or something. Is it like? Yeah, I'm not sure if we have that law in the States because I haven't heard of it, but I know that it kind of reminds me of obviously both my husband and I are Christian. I'm openly about that. And there's something in the Bible that says, oh, well, you have to meet the needs of your partner and vice versa. And I'm like, well, if your partner doesn't have any needs, then you're kind of meeting them already. So it's kind of like a gray area that no one really knows about. But you have some Christian people have come up to us and been like, well, you're supposed to, you know, have sex in your marriage. And I'm like, well, it doesn't really say that you actually have to. It's kind of like, you know, there's a lot of things around it. But thankfully, my pastor who actually married us was very supportive of it as well. He was again, more confused about it. But he was like, well, we can just skip the whole, like we had to go through marriage counseling or not counseling, but like premarital counseling. He's like, well, we can just get the whole chapter about intercourse then because, like, that's easy. And he just tossed it to the side. It is amazing to say the least. I was very happy that he was so accepting of it. That's really great to hear. I mean, for me, it's just kind of a question of intrigue. And again, you're welcome to say no. But for you, what classes as sexual activity like, do you think that, like, is it do you do not like kiss or do you not hug, want to hug or cuddle or, you know, what kind of what kind of things are the things that you you don't want to stay away from and which parts of, I guess, the romance do you keep in? That's a really good question. And it is going to vary between each asexual couple that you need as well. And for us, basically, it's everything except sex. So we I think the furthest we go is like, my husband gives me massages, but he doesn't like them himself. So he'll just like massage my shoulders or like around like up here, mostly my back and my shoulders. But honestly, we we still kiss, we still cuddle. We still, I mean, yeah, we're just like any other romantic couple just without one little thing. Sure. That's really interesting. I've always wanted to ask, ask someone an asexual person about that. Because, you know, for me, like I went for like a long period of my life, because, you know, one of the side effects of being on antidepressants and I've been on antidepressants for pretty much all of my life. Like sexual dysfunction is quite a big part of that. And I remember in Thailand, I kind of I kind of go through periods of time where I just don't want anything like from from other people. And it was it was a long time before. Now, I was I was in a relationship at the time, but I didn't I didn't really feel like the connection that I perhaps might have with my my current partner. So I really felt like I didn't want to for a long time. And I kind of went through up and down over the course of about a year, just trying to to figure out exactly what it was. And I came across demisexuality, which was like, OK, that makes sense to me. And it's it's a weird one as next. It's not necessarily that you have no sex drive, because you could have a high sex drive, but you could also not want to engage with another person in in my intimacy. Yeah. And I don't think we talked about the definition of demisexuality yet. So for those that don't know, demisexuality is you don't experience sexual attraction to a person unless you form some sort of romantic or emotional bond with that person. So yeah, you still experience sexual attraction, but there needs to be some sort of build up to that. Yeah. And it's it was it was it took me a long time to kind of nail down the the idea of demisexuality, because I know there's there's a lot of stigma about asexuality in general. But you know, whenever I've come out and told people about the idea of demisexuality, I know there's there's a lot of stigma whenever I've come out and told people about my experiences being demisexual, everyone has just told me that it's just like being a normal person. Like it's kind of not because maybe maybe like 100 years ago, maybe it was sort of like that, maybe to some degree. But nowadays, you know, with the advent of hookup culture and all these dating apps and stuff, it's actually an anomaly for you not to want to have sex with anyone that you find physically attractive. And I always I found like throughout my life, especially around. It was around around male friends and around. You know, like if it was if I was at like the club or something, and you know, a girl was looking at me and like give me the eyes and all that and my friends would be like, I go over, go to go talk to her. I'm like, I can't hear anything. I can't talk to her. I you can't have a conversation. So what am I going to do? I mean, just going to like go up and smush my face against us or like. It just it never felt felt to me at all pleasant that whole scenario. And I'd always get picked up on it. And for a lot for a large period of my life, actually, a lot of people, you know, were saying that I was gay because I just didn't do that. Or like if a woman came up to me and propositioned me and I said propositioned when we came up to a proposition, I said, no, they'd say, oh, OK. Are you gay? I'm like, no, I'm not gay. And I after a while, I just kind of got comfortable just saying I'm I'm autistic. And yeah, OK, they don't know a lot about autism. So I just said that just to kind of get them off my back. But there's been a lot of cases like that. And I think people really get the wrong idea of it. Yeah. And that's actually why there's a lot more asexual women than men, because it's like, again, there's that stigma that men are supposed to be like these, I guess, very muscular, big figures. And they are supposed to have the sex drive. And that's another reason why my husband's not publicly out is because he has been told by a couple of people that, oh, you're gay. And like, no, he's he's married to me. He is not. And yeah, it's just it's really unfortunate the the hate that asexual men tend to get, especially for my husband. He's also a person of color. He happens to be of Mexican descent. And, you know, Mexican men are supposed to be these macho people that tend to get all the ladies and he is not like that. And that's, again, another reason why there needs to be more male representation. And I do believe I forgot to mention that Todd from Bojack Horseman is also Hispanic, so some progress. But it's not quite there yet. That's really interesting. So I know we talked a little bit about demisexuality, asexuality and aromantic stuff. I know I haven't listed as a question, but I think we've already sort of covered that. Is there any sort of stigmas or stereotypes that really jump out to you when you when you think about asexuality, whether it's something that's common for the community or common for yourself? What would those be? Yeah, I think definitely the biggest one, which we've kind of covered already is the fact that asexuals are not supposedly supposed to be in relationships. Like if you can't have sex with someone, then a relationship won't work. Obviously, that is not true. You can have a purely romantic relationship or even just a friendship. Some people are just OK with a queer platonic relationship or just a regular friendship. And it's really unfortunate that people think that they need to have sex with their partner to please them and to keep that relationship stable. Like that is not the main reason why you should be involved in a relationship. I mean, my husband and I's communication is our strong point. It helped us through a long distance. It helped us to now, especially since I'm autistic. He's neurotypical. So we have to communicate all the time or we're not going to understand each other. And so I think of all things that should be the main focus in a relationship and not sexual intercourse. Yeah, I think it's. I listen to music while I record and there's a song that came on called Sex Money Feelings Die. I was like, it just distracted me because it was so related to the topic. Very appropriate. I will mention that that's the funny thing about our relationship is that even though both of us are sex repulsed, we'll still crack a sex joke or like inappropriate joke and both of us will find it funny. It's just so weird how that works. And a lot of the ace people in our community are like that, too. They'll still find stuff like that funny, but it's definitely interesting. Yeah, I mean, why not leave this as a part of things? I think, you know, the biggest stigma that comes up a lot is around people not thinking that it's real and that people are just kind of trying to use. You know, because we're in an age where people are more and more often kind of, you know, looking out for looking for different ways that you can live your life and how to express that to other people that you live your life in a certain way. And, you know, people seem to be really, really adverse to the idea of asexuality and like especially demisexuality. It's just like I understand that there are some. Well, it's one of those things, isn't it? If it's like everybody says that. Everyone that, you know, sort of plays into these stigmas tend to say that, you know, if you had a high sex drive that you would you wouldn't be asexual and that you need to do some work to improve your sex drive or things like that. Yeah. And I find that very strange because sex drive isn't always like orientated towards a certain person. Like you can just you can just feel turned on for no reason sometimes, especially as a man. And, you know, it's been times in my life where I thought, you know, do I really want that kind of relationship with somebody? Or do I just want to just take care of it myself? Like, do you think that that people sort of misconstrued the idea of having a sex drive and and being asexual quite a lot? Yeah, they think that the lack or absence of sexual attraction means oh, you don't have a libido, but of course that's a little bit about it. Yeah, but some people do. Some people don't. I personally do not have one. And I know some some ace people who still do and it's very low or it's very high. And it's just going to be different between each ace person. But like you said, it's like, why do people care low? Why do people like want to help you with your sex drive or want to help you have more sex? It's like, can you just stay in your lane? Like, why does it matter so much to you? I appreciate the help, but I do not want it. Yeah. And it doesn't make a lot of sense to me at the whole thing about, you know, sex, libido and sex drive being like a main player in how you want to live. Like, if you want to call yourself asexual because you don't want any sexual relations with people, then like, why do you have to justify that you don't want that? Like, people, like people ask, like, what's the point of having demisexuality and asexuality? Well, it's it's there for a reason, because if you go into a dating scenario, just a normal dating scenario, people are going to expect that you want to have some kind of intimacy in the relationship and being able to say, hey, look, I'm actually this. I'm looking for someone else who, you know, is like this as well. Are you like that? Like, there's a lot of utility in that. And I don't see the I don't really see the argument that it's, you know, it doesn't need to exist to for it to be a thing. Like, it doesn't matter if it's the absence of something. Like, if you if if I was to say, you know, you know, in a in a circumstance, my God, my brain is having a right all the time. You're OK. While you do think of it, I do have something else to add if that's OK. Go for it, go for it. Because it reminds me of people don't really know the difference between asexuality and celibacy as well. And as a person who is religious, celibacy involves people who are they still experience sexual attraction, but they are purposely waiting until marriage to have sex with someone with their partner, with their supposedly their life partner. And after they get married, they still do it. And then people were like, well, like you and your husband are Christian, so you're just waiting until marriage or like, no, even after marriage, we're we're not going to do that's what asexuality is. It's not just we don't like we don't experience the attraction and we don't ever want to do it. And that's not what celibacy is. Celibacy is simply waiting for the right person. Well, I found my right person, but we do not just we don't want to go there. So. I think that's what people get confused about is that asexuality is not celibacy. There definitely is a major difference between both of those things. Definitely. It's really interesting to hear about kind of the common sort of stigmas and misconceptions that people have. I guess how do you think that we can we can change society's view on this? How can we shift this perspective? I mean, it's just like the other LGBT plus identities. And it's the one of the A's and LGBTQIA. And we just have to let people know that this is normal. This isn't something that needs to be fixed. My husband and I are proof that you don't need to have sectioned your relationship for it to work. Such a small part for a lot of people. Yeah. And yeah, for us, it's basically nothing. We have one less thing to worry about in our relationship. So I just wish people would understand that it's not the most important thing in a relationship or it doesn't have to be, I should say. And that is just I've also lost my train of thought, too. But really, at the end of the day, I just hope people understand that. Sex is not the most important thing in or doesn't have to be the most important thing in any relationship. And that as long as you have great communication, you both have the same life goals and that you both. I guess, understand each other or attempt to try and understand each other. Really, that's all that's important as my husband and I are proof of that. And we've been married for almost two years now. We've had minimal issues in our marriage. So there is hope for a lot of my fellow romantic aspects or any other aromantic, asexual or wherever you identify on the aromantic and asexual spectrums, there is hope for you in finding a partner who is something that you're looking for, somebody that you're looking for, I should say. Brilliant. And of course, having you out there, I know you don't actively seek out stuff around asexuality, but it's always good to have some kind of representation because for anybody who is sort of questioning themselves and thinking, oh my God, is it that I just have a low sex drive or do I actually just not want this? Like having someone that you know, either from someone that you follow online, anything like that, it kind of gives you a way to sort of explore that, whereas if you're kind of sat there on your own, you might be thinking, oh, what's wrong with me? Like why can I not enjoy intimacy with my partner as much as they do? I think it's really useful to have figureheads like yourself who really, I guess, normalize something that really should be just a normal part of being human. Yeah. And thank you. I really appreciate you having me on this podcast. It's been really awesome getting to share my experience and getting to know you better too, because there definitely needs to be more autistic ace representation as well. Definitely. Definitely. Well, yeah, well, thank you for coming on yourself. We don't have any questions from Instagram today, because my level of executive functioning at the moment, as I said, about the mental health, it's not very good. So I'm forgetting a lot of things, but we remembered one thing, which is the song of the day, the imaginary jingle that I haven't created. Song of the day. What is your song of the day, PJ? Well, I chose a Christian song called Burn the Ships by Forking in Country. And I particularly love this song because it has a message of just not looking back on bad things that have happened in your life. You just got to burn those ships, leave your past behind and move forward. And that's kind of how I feel about some of the things that have been said to me on this journey of being this asexual advocate, because of course we talked about the hate and the stigma that a lot of bases get. And you just got to push past them and, you know, do the best you can do and advocate for yourself. Brilliant. No, I'm thinking it's a it's a Christian song. Yes, it is. Yes. Which it's funny because it doesn't sound like one, but it's by a Christian artist and so therefore it's a Christian song. Technically, yes, it is. It's playing on Christian radio and it was, I think, number one or somewhere on the top 10 for a long time, because it was played for like months on end on my local Christian station. Yeah, it's a good one. Well, thank you. Thank you very much for that. I will put that down in the description. Well, the playlist down in the description, as usual, you'll be able to see that if you are interested in listening to the playlist. It's a compilation of all the different songs from different topics, different people, all sort of compiled into one nice little playlist. And I will definitely be listening to Burma ships after we finish our chat. So I really hope you have enjoyed this episode today. I have really enjoyed speaking to you, PJ. It's always, you know, I think every conversation that we've had together, everything that we've worked on at the moment, you know, we seem to jam quite well together. Yes, I agree. Thank you, Thomas, for having me again. It's been a pleasure getting to chat with you. Sure. Thank you. And if, of course, if you listen to this and you want to find the podcast anywhere else, it's pretty much available on every single podcasting platform. And if you want to see the video version of our interview, you can head over to YouTube, which is under Thomas Henley, and there'll be the full version over on that. And of course, I don't really ask this a lot on the podcast, but I probably should. If you are on Spotify, Apple podcasts, anything like that, please, please, please give me a review. Preferably the five star variety. I would really appreciate that. Because it's been going for a long time and I haven't really asked for them. And so we only have about 15 reviews as of now and it would be really, really good to get that, that count up. So if you have enjoyed the episode, make sure to go and rate it. And of course, if you want to stay up to date with all the stuff that I do, whether it's YouTube videos, whether it's Instagram blogs, like the one that me and PJ did on asexuality and modelling, or you want to get in contact with me for something related to training, public speaking for events, modelling, of course, and any, any type of interviews for podcasts, radio, TV, all of that. You can find that at my website, Thomas Henley.co.uk alongside my portfolio. And if you want to get in contact, my current email address as of recording us is aspergysgrove.com. But as you know, I have changed my name to Thomas Henley, so that may change very, very soon. If it has changed, I'll probably amend it down in the description. So I think that's, that's everything that I wanted to mention. Have you enjoyed your Forty Autie podcast experience, PJ? Oh, yes, of course. This has been amazing to talk about. I'm really glad. And it's, it's been incredibly valuable to have your, your insight on something and also sort of tie that into autism. I found it, found it really interesting when you're talking about LGBT and autism. So yeah, it's been absolutely great to speak to you. And thank you for being out there. Hope you have a great day and I'll see you in another episode of the Forty Autie podcast. See you later, guys. Bye, everyone.